8 replies to this topic

[Steven]

Hi
Just doing some proofreading and came across an old chestnut (a horse chestnut in this case)

Quote

HOW TO READ THE BIBLE FOR PLEASURE AND PROFIT
the word “holy” means separate, and as Bible means Book, you have in your hands a ...
www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=328

Common sense should tell the reader that verses like Exodus 26:33, Leviticus 20:26, Numbers 6:5, Hebrews 7:26 which include both words mean that the two ideas are as different in Hebrew and Greek as they are in English, but for some reason this is one of these weeble things that no matter how many times you knock it over with Hebrew and Greek lexicons it always bounces back.

So I'm wondering where the original source is that has got this stuck in the Christadelphian consciousness (apart from the attractiveness of the concept I mean). It seems broadly distributed, but no particular source is acknowledged. Does anyone have the Christadelphian Works CD-Rom and care to do a search (assuming the Rom is searchable).
S

Quote

Glasgow Kelvin Christadelphians
... word "holy" means separate and the Israelites were instructed to keep themselves separate from the nations around ...
www.glasgowkelvin.org.uk/topics/inter-racial_relationships.html

PDF God's Plan with Man
Australian Christadelphian. Central Standing Committee,. (ACCSC), 1964
... “Holy” means separate, or set apart. By. that Power God begat Jesus, ...
www.thechristadelphians.org/btcd/downloads/pdf/God_s_Plan_With_Man_Harold_Wright.pdf

[PDF] The Trinity
... word ‘Holy’ means separate. The term Holy Spirit describes the power of God when ...
www.onlytruegod.info/MoreArtPDFs/3.pdf

The One Hope of The Bible
...last day of every week must be a holy day (holy means separate, or set apart). ...
www.theonehope.org/review.asp?ID=13

Edited by Steven, 21 September 2006 - 06:52 AM.

[Grace]

It doesn't seem to be restricted to a Christadelphian idea - it's all over lots of other sites on the web (Presbyterian, Evangelical, Baptist, etc).

[Dawn]

What does "holy" mean if it doesn't mean "separate" then?

[mji]

Steven, have you read Snaith's "Distinctive Ideas of OT" and, if so, how good is he on holiness in your opinion? (IIRC he spends more time on holiness than any other idea.)

[Steven]

Hi Dawn
In holy spirit vs unclean spirit or evil spirit, you might say holy meant clean or good. But generally holy means holy. That can include elements of being "clean", "separate", "undefiled", "righteous", "good" or all of these but it's still an idea in itself.

Note:2 Timothy 2:21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

So, set apart as holy, not set apart as set apart. The ideas are related, just as holy and honourable are related, but the whole point of them occuring together in these verses is to show that holy means something in itself. = Holy.


Hi MJI

mji, on Sep 21 2006, 11:24 AM, said:

Steven, have you read Snaith's "Distinctive Ideas of OT" and, if so, how good is he on holiness in your opinion? (IIRC he spends more time on holiness than any other idea.)

You mean N. H. Snaith, Distinctive Ideas of the Old Testament (1944), pp. 21-50? No, I've not read it. Snaith is good on the Septuagint. There may well be in the OT usage, and therefore in LXX usage, more association with separateness than visible in the NT. But, leaving aside the Hebrew for the moment, look at how "holy" "holiness" "unholy" are used in the NT and it's clear that "separation" is a very minor characteristic that depends on exactly what we're separating from. John 17:15 warns us against separation for its own sake.

WLIOL
S

[Tarkus]

Steven, on Sep 21 2006, 11:03 PM, said:

There may well be in the OT usage, and therefore in LXX usage, more association with separateness than visible in the NT. But, leaving aside the Hebrew for the moment, look at how "holy" "holiness" "unholy" are used in the NT and it's clear that "separation" is a very minor characteristic that depends on exactly what we're separating from. John 17:15 warns us against separation for its own sake.

WLIOL
S

Most of the "holy = separate" school will tell you that holiness is not just being separated from things but being separated "to" God. In other words they have convinced themselves that "separated" = "holy" = "joined" :-)

[mji]

Quote

You mean N. H. Snaith, Distinctive Ideas of the Old Testament (1944), pp. 21-50? No, I've not read it. Snaith is good on the Septuagint. There may well be in the OT usage, and therefore in LXX usage, more association with separateness than visible in the NT. But, leaving aside the Hebrew for the moment, look at how "holy" "holiness" "unholy" are used in the NT and it's clear that "separation" is a very minor characteristic that depends on exactly what we're separating from. John 17:15 warns us against separation for its own sake.

That's the one.

I have a vague recollection of the idea that a big aspect of holiness was being devoted to, and therefore under the ownership/mastership of, God (a la your 2 Tim 2:21)...and then another aspect was differentness from the (human) norm "be holy as I am holy".

...and for wont of any further thinking on it that's how I would summarise "holy" if asked - how could I improve on it?

[Steven]

Hi T

Tarkus, on Sep 21 2006, 01:01 PM, said:

Most of the "holy = separate" school will tell you that holiness is not just being separated from things but being separated "to" God. In other words they have convinced themselves that "separated" = "holy" = "joined" :-)

Well it's clearly not "joined" in any sense. Presumably they'd be taking the idea of to, L', as direction in KODESH L’ YHWH (Exodus 28:36), to show "dedicated to" or "devoted to", despite the fact that Hebrew already has words for these. All those things which were KODESH L'ADONAI such as the blood of the sin offering (Exodus 30:10), incense (v37), the Sabbath (31:15), the wave offering (Leviticus 23:20) or devoted things (Leviticus 27:28)

That verse is worth quoting in full
“But no devoted thing that a man devotes to the Lord, of anything that he has, whether man or beast, or of his inherited field, shall be sold or redeemed; every devoted thing is most holy to the Lord.

And again we have in Numbers 6:8
All the days of his separation he is holy to the Lord.
Showing that they are in sympathy as objectives, but obviously don't mean the same thing: "separation" and "holiness" aren't synonyms.

Hi MJI

mji, on Sep 21 2006, 01:15 PM, said:

I have a vague recollection of the idea that a big aspect of holiness was being devoted to, and therefore under the ownership/mastership of, God (a la your 2 Tim 2:21)...and then another aspect was differentness from the (human) norm "be holy as I am holy". ...and for wont of any further thinking on it that's how I would summarise "holy" if asked - how could I improve on it?

Well it's more than a vague recollection, I'm sure you're right even without having read the specific section. The thing is if we were Jews, and if we lived in a Hebrew-speaking environment, and if Christ had never come and if Paul had never written we probably could defend this "Holy means separate" old chestnut, since in that legal context it wouldn't make much difference anyway. The problem is the only clear case of this dedicatory usage in the NT is Luke 2:23 "as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every male who first opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”" And as it says as it is written in the Law . I.e. OT. as per Hebrews 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness.

One use of "holy to" in Luke 2:23, then Heb9:1, doesn't really justify adding "to" or worse "holy from" in every incident of "holy" without "to" in the NT. The NT idea has far more to do with "cleaning from" than "separating from", more to do with being good, clean Christians than being isolationists.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

Ephesians 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father

1 Thessalonians 4:3 holiness that you abstain from sexual immorality;

1 Thessalonians 4:4 control his own body in holiness and honor,

1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness.

1 Timothy 2:15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Hebrews 12:10 he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. (Share his isolation?)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (ie. don't separate, avoid, people, strive, contend to be peaceful with them)

2 Peter 3:11 what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,

There's a lot in here about making clean, avoiding dirt, and it's not a million miles from "separating" from these bad things. But still "holiness" is more than "purity", more than "separation, holiness is "holiness".

The above doesn't cover "make holy" as a verb of course. "Sanctify", as a transitive verb marking a beast object or man does require some element of devoting, dedicating, even setting apart to God. But "to make holy" still doesn't MEAN "to make separate". "Sanctify" still has elements related to cleanliness and godliness as much or more:Ephesians 5:26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

LIOL
S.

Edited by Steven, 21 September 2006 - 12:45 PM.

[mji]

No it really is only vague recollections!...I think (even hazier) old Norm S. did cover cleansing too. Actually although he started with "holy" I seem to remember this was the 'distinctive idea' that he followed through least comprehensively into the NT - that's where is book drives towards OT -> NT.