81 replies to this topic

[Simpleton]

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1. These souls were clothed in white garments (v 11), so they're clearly not the disembodies spirits you're making them out to be.

2. Yes, they are in "heaven" (sorry, Martyn!) but do you believe there's a literal altar in heaven? Along with the rest of a temple, a dead Lamb who walks and talks, four other animals, a pregnant woman, numerous other living people with bodies, and a dragon? As has been pointed out, this is clearly not a literal picture of heaven.

How did all those slain people get to heaven? The first resurrection hasn't taken place.

[Adanac]

It's not literal Simpleton. People don't go to heaven - the Bible never mentions the idea. They are dead people but they speak just as Abel's blood spoke after Cain slew him. Revelation is a book of symbol - you can't take it literally or form doctrine from it.

[Jeremy]

My £50 is looking quite safe at the moment.

[Simpleton]

How about Jn. 14:2-3? What is Jesus talking about if not heaven?

[Jeremy]

Look through the whole Bible. Can you find a single example where God's house means something other than either a literal temple in Jerusalem, or a community of people here on earth?

If Jesus meant we were all going to enjoy bliss in heaven, why does he need to come again?

Edited by Jeremy, 21 July 2006 - 07:39 PM.

[Martyn]

Jeremy, on Jul 21 2006, 08:18 PM, said:

My £50 is looking quite safe at the moment.

Not when I tell you I have a 25% discount vouchers for my publications.

[Simpleton]

Jeremy, on Jul 21 2006, 02:38 PM, said:

Look through the whole Bible. Can you find a single example where God's house means something other than either a literal temple in Jerusalem, or a community of people here on earth?

If Jesus meant we were all going to enjoy bliss in heaven, why does he need to come again?

What about 2 Co. 12:2-4?

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven---whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise---whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows---and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

[Martyn]

Simpleton, on Jul 21 2006, 08:22 PM, said:

How about Jn. 14:2-3? What is Jesus talking about if not heaven?

Jn. 14.2-3 ties in perfectly with 1Thess. 4.

NET said:

There are many dwelling places in my Father’s house. Otherwise, I would have told you. I am going away to make ready a place for you. And if I go and make ready a place for you, I will come again and take you to be with me, so that where I am you may be too.

Let's go from the top.

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There are many dwelling places in my Father’s house. Otherwise, I would have told you.

The Father's house has lots of place for lots of people, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have bothered preaching.

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I am going away to make ready a place for you.

Jesus is going away to prepare the kingdom for his disciples. He went to heaven (Acts 1).

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And if I go and make ready a place for you, I will come again

Jesus is coming back to the place he left (the earth). I've emphasised the bit that lots of people forget. Jesus said 'I will come again'.

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and take you to be with me, so that where I am you may be too.

The disciples will be taken to be with Jesus. Not heaven, because even you have said that after 'bodily resurrection' the disciples will be immortal beings on the earth.

Notice when the reward takes place. When Jesus comes back. Not before.

In other words, the reward for the disciple is not in heaven, even though Jesus himself has gone away to heaven. So when he says things like 'your citizenship is in heaven', he's referring to the fact that he's gone away to heaven to prepare a place for the disciples - and will come back again.

The disciples don't go to heaven. Their reward is on the earth.

Same question as before, Simp. Have you read the promises to Abraham?

[Martyn]

Simpleton, on Jul 21 2006, 08:57 PM, said:

What about 2 Co. 12:2-4?

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven---whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise---whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows---and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

Who was this guy? How does Paul know about him? Where's the third heaven? Why doesn't Paul know what went on?

And here's the biggie - if Paul believed in spirits going to heaven, why does he say 'whether in the body or out of the body I do not know'? Why? If you're right, and he knows that the material bit of man goes to the ground and the immaterial bit goes to heaven, he wouldn't need to ask this question, would he?

Whatever is going on here, I don't think it makes your case.

[Simpleton]

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Same question as before, Simp. Have you read the promises to Abraham?

You mean the land from the Nile to the Euphrates?

[Martyn]

Simpleton, on Jul 21 2006, 09:05 PM, said:

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Same question as before, Simp. Have you read the promises to Abraham?

You mean the land from the Nile to the Euphrates?

I mean Gen. 12, 13, 15, 17.

[Simpleton]

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Who was this guy? How does Paul know about him? Where's the third heaven? Why doesn't Paul know what went on?

And here's the biggie - if Paul believed in spirits going to heaven, why does he say 'whether in the body or out of the body I do not know'? Why? If you're right, and he knows that the material bit of man goes to the ground and the immaterial bit goes to heaven, he wouldn't need to ask this question, would he?

Whatever is going on here, I don't think it makes your case.

Paul is talking about himself.

And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated (2 Co. 12:7).

Now he was caught up to somewhere and heard things that cannot be told. He may or may not have been in his body. He is the guy that said to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. Guess he would know, huh?

[Jeremy]

Simpleton, on Jul 21 2006, 09:22 PM, said:

Now he was caught up to somewhere and heard things that cannot be told. He may or may not have been in his body. He is the guy that said to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. Guess he would know, huh?

Even if Paul is talking about himself, he doesn't know whether he was bodily there or not (and not, for instance, seeing a vision). And if Paul was still alive to tell the tale, he hadn't died and gone to Heaven, had he? This is hardly convincing proof for your theory of immortal souls.

And even if part of him had gone to this third heaven (leaving on one side for one moment what the first and second heavens might be), how did he hear things than cannot be told? His ears were presumably still attached to his body - which he had left behind!?!?

Getting back to reality, did you find a passage where "God's house" wasn't on earth?

Edited by Jeremy, 21 July 2006 - 08:32 PM.

[Simpleton]

I am not trying to limit God. He is not subject to His creation and He is everywhere present continually.

There is a place for believers between death of the body and the resurrection of the body. I can't tell just where it is but I will call that place heaven and I know the way to get there.

[Jeremy]

Simpleton, on Jul 21 2006, 09:43 PM, said:

There is a place for believers between death of the body and the resurrection of the body.

I'd like one Bible verse in support of that. You've had umpteen showing the true state of the dead.

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I can't tell just where it is but I will call that place heaven and I know the way to get there.

Then maybe you would let the apostle Peter know when you've found out (Acts 2 v 34).

The sooner you abandon the myth of the immortality of the soul, the sooner we'll have the chance of making some progress. Meanwhile, I'm backing out of this thread for a while.

Edited by Jeremy, 21 July 2006 - 08:50 PM.

[tsunade sama]

Yawn

[Simpleton]

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Mt. 10:28).

And as her soul was departing (for she died), she called his name Benone; but his father called his name Benjamin (Ge. 35:18).

And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep (Acts 7:59-60).

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead (James 2:26)

Since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me (2 Peter 1:14).

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannto tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better (Php. 1:21-23).

So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Co. 5:6-8).

We leave these bodies. The body can be killed but the soul/spirit can't be killed. Only God has the power to cause the soul/spirit to cease, but He never will. The soul/spirit leaves the body at death and death causes only the body to cease. Now when the soul/spirit leaves the body it goes somewhere. Where does it go?

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out wiht a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!" And all the angels stood round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God for ever and ever! Amen." Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?" I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Re. 7:9-14)

The redeemed go to heaven upon death of the body and the unredeemed go to hades.

[Martyn]

Some classic examples of hoping that a verse says what you want it to say.

Before we go there, Simp, are you planning on dealing with the responses Jeremy and I gave you for 2Cor 12? It's only polite to response when people answer you.

Simpleton, on Jul 24 2006, 03:28 PM, said:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Mt. 10:28).

First, Nili gave you a great paraphrase of this verse a couple of weeks ago: when man kills you, at least you have a hope for the future, but when God kills you, boy, are you dead.

Second, this contradicts completely what you say further down: "The body can be killed but the soul/spirit can't be killed. Only God has the power to cause the soul/spirit to cease, but He never will."

If it can't be killed, God can't kill it. But if God can kill it but won't, Jesus wasted his words.

No immortal soul going to heaven here.

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And as her soul was departing (for she died), she called his name Benone; but his father called his name Benjamin (Ge. 35:18).

That verse doesn't say anything about an immortal soul going to heaven. Did you not read it? It describes the reverse of Gen 2.7 - when God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life, and he became a living soul. Now Rachel is dying, so God will take her breath back from her, and she will no longer be a living soul. You have to actually believe the Bible when it says 'for she died'. It really means it. Otherwise it would have said, 'for she died, but carried on living'.

Some trinitarian translations have captured the colloquial nature of the language here:

• With her dying breath, she named him Ben-Oni (NET)
  
• Heb “in the going out of her life, for she was dying.” Rachel named the child with her dying breath. (NET notes)
  
• Rachel was at the point of death, and right before dying, she said, "I'll name him Benoni." (CEV)

No immortal soul going to heaven here.

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And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep (Acts 7:59-60).

That verse doesn't say anything about Stephen's immortal soul going to heaven. It says he died, in a reverse of Gen. 2.7. It doesn't say his 'spirit' carried on living.

I think you're trying to get this verse to say something it doesn't.

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For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead (James 2:26)

If you don't breathe, you don't live. Likewise, if you don't have works, your faith is dead.

No immortal soul going to heaven here.

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Since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me (2 Peter 1:14).

Peter says he going to die soon. Read Acts 2 if you want to know what Peter believed happens to dead people.

No immortal soul going to heaven here.

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For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannto tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better (Php. 1:21-23).

Paul can't decide what to do. Is it better to give up the fight, submit to the Jews and let them kill him, knowing that the next thing he'll see will be his Lord on the resurrection day? Or is it preferable to stay, write letters, strengthen the churches and appeal to Caesar?

No immortal soul going to heaven here. Read the verse. It doesn't mention heaven. You might want it to, but it doesn't.

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So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Co. 5:6-8).

Why do you assume 'at home with the Lord' means heaven? Read the verse. It doesn't mention heaven. You might want it to, but it doesn't.

Please stop assuming what verses mean.

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We leave these bodies. The body can be killed but the soul/spirit can't be killed. Only God has the power to cause the soul/spirit to cease, but He never will. The soul/spirit leaves the body at death and death causes only the body to cease. Now when the soul/spirit leaves the body it goes somewhere. Where does it go?

Thus far, I think we can conclude you don't know, even though the Bible writers were convinced that dead people were dead. Dead, dead, dead. They couldn't do anything. Being dead and all, that causes problems. They were dead, and they waited the resurrection day.

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After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out wiht a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!" And all the angels stood round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God for ever and ever! Amen." Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?" I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Re. 7:9-14)

The redeemed go to heaven upon death of the body and the unredeemed go to hades.

So why are those people in Rev. 7 not described as spirits? It says multitude, nations, peoples, tongues. Not one indication of immortal souls.

How do you think those people would feel if you were there telling them they weren't actually going to stay before the throne, but actually at some point Jesus would whisk them away to be squeezed back into their bodies again? Mighty disappointed, I'd wager.


Please respond on three fronts:

• 2Cor 12: my post and Jeremy's
  
• this post
  
• the promises to Abraham

[Simpleton]

Martyn.

Those verses show that the body dies when the spirit leaves the body (regardless of the cause of the spirit's departure) and also that life continues outside the dead body. Paul taught that believers would be present with the Lord when they died regardless of where the body is placed.

As for the promises to Abraham, how about being joint heirs with Christ; not that we will be deified but will be adopted as children of God. Yes, we will eventually live upon the earth, but we will always live (Ro. 8:38-39) because we have been already raised to eternal life.

[Martyn]

Simpleton, on Jul 24 2006, 06:05 PM, said:

Those verses show that the body dies when the spirit leaves the body (regardless of the cause of the spirit's departure) and also that life continues outside the dead body. Paul taught that believers would be present with the Lord when they died regardless of where the body is placed.

You couldn't even get 'heaven' into your own paraphrase!

Those verse show that the spirit leaves the body at death, and that after death it is possible to live again. They don't show

• that the spirit carries on living when the body dies
  
• that the spirit goes to the heavenly realms
  
• that Paul or Stephen expected to go to heaven when his earthly tabernacle was 'put off'.

I think you still owe me some answers to my posts, if you'd be so kind.

[Steven]

Simpleton, on Jul 24 2006, 02:28 PM, said:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Mt. 10:28).

When?

[Simpleton]

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Those verse show that the spirit leaves the body at death, and that after death it is possible to live again. They don't show

• that the spirit carries on living when the body dies
  
• that the spirit goes to the heavenly realms
  
• that Paul or Stephen expected to go to heaven when his earthly tabernacle was 'put off'.

I think you still owe me some answers to my posts, if you'd be so kind.

First lets agree that Paul is teaching that believers are present with the Lord instantly upon death (Php. 1:23; 2 Co. 5:8).

[Simpleton]

Steven, on Jul 25 2006, 05:47 AM, said:

Simpleton, on Jul 24 2006, 02:28 PM, said:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Mt. 10:28).

When?

At the great white throne judgment (Re. 20:11-15).

This is the second death, but neither of these deaths is an end to existance. The destruction is everlasting.

[Adanac]

Simpleton, on Jul 25 2006, 09:10 AM, said:

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Those verse show that the spirit leaves the body at death, and that after death it is possible to live again. They don't show

• that the spirit carries on living when the body dies
  
• that the spirit goes to the heavenly realms
  
• that Paul or Stephen expected to go to heaven when his earthly tabernacle was 'put off'.

I think you still owe me some answers to my posts, if you'd be so kind.

First lets agree that Paul is teaching that believers are present with the Lord instantly upon death (Php. 1:23; 2 Co. 5:8).

Only insofar as their next waking (yes, the Bible preaches the resurrection) moment will be with Christ. I suppose it might be like having a general anaesthetic, but we can't know for sure.

[Adanac]

Simpleton, on Jul 25 2006, 09:16 AM, said:

Steven, on Jul 25 2006, 05:47 AM, said:

Simpleton, on Jul 24 2006, 02:28 PM, said:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Mt. 10:28).

When?

At the great white throne judgment (Re. 20:11-15).

This is the second death, but neither of these deaths is an end to existance. The destruction is everlasting.

So you believe God will submit people to endless torture?

Nice God you believe in.

[Jeremy]

Simpleton, on Jul 25 2006, 05:16 PM, said:

This is the second death, but neither of these deaths is an end to existance. The destruction is everlasting.

So if I destroy something, and the destruction is for ever, the thing isn't actually destroyed?

Simpleton, please tell me I misunderstood you, and that you're not trying alter the plain meaning of words.

[Simpleton]

Is being dead ever anything more than being separated?

Being separated from God due to sin is to be dead. (see Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13)

Those who are given "new life" don't ever become separated from God, not even in death of the body (Ro. 8:38-39).

All who have died physically are existing in some place even now. They have not ceased to exist.

At what point or time does man cease to exist?

[Adanac]

Simpleton, on Aug 2 2006, 10:51 AM, said:

Is being dead ever anything more than being separated?

Yes, believe it or not if means being dead. I know that's a rather novel idea but it's in fact what the Bible says. When you're dead you're dead. Caput.

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All who have died physically are existing in some place even now. They have not ceased to exist.

No they're not. The Bible says they are dead.

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At what point or time does man cease to exist?

When they are dead. It's not hard to understand, Simpleton.

[Simpleton]

Death of the body is temporal. It lasts for only as long as the Lord allows. He will raise the dead. It does not matter where the atoms have been scattered that made up our bodies, He will form and raise the dead bodies.

The essence from which the spirit of man is composed is not something that ceases to exist. The spirits of the dead abide somewhere (lets call it the abode of the dead). The spirit leaves the body at death, just as has been mentioned in previous scriptures. The abode of the dead is the grave for the material body, and for the spirit it is either heaven or hades/hell. The spirit has to be placed back into the body to raise the dead.

The second death is not temporal but eternal. The abode of the dead will be emptied at the end of the age (Re. 20:13) and all people will receive a just reward for what they have done. Those cast into the lake of fire will suffer the second death. The trouble for them is that they were just raised immortal---still they will suffer eternal seperation from God due to their deeds.

[Adanac]

What a load of complete and utter nonsense, Simpleton. Nothing more to be said.