32 replies to this topic

[dupodong]

For there are many versions of Bibles in the world, and there also are lots of languages for conveying the Words from God.
But we all know, some wicked ones in history had distorted the real Bible in many ways, especially in its language for their own purpose.
so how to judge which one is the real one? and how to choose it?
for if we chose the wrong one, even if we had put all our effort, still we can never get the real meaning of it.
and the worst is we could possiblely walk along the wrong way and still believe in that we are walking in the light, that's terroble! for if we persist on doing it, we'd finnally drop into the Pit miserable, but not the Paradise regained.

so please help me to find the true Bible, and let me put all my trust into it, and share with the people the real meaning of the Word of God, and enjoy the real delight from the real God.
not the false prophet, or false Christ, that'd be horrible!

thanks a billion~~

[Russell]

Actually virtually all Bible translations are fairly good. All translations have bias and error, but it is very unusual for those errors and that bias to affect more than a very small part of the text in such a way that the gospel message is not able to be understood.

Edited by Weasley, 04 July 2006 - 04:59 AM.

[Fortigurn]

I personally recommend the NET.

[Adanac]

Having used the NET for the past while I'm not so fond of it. Good translators notes but the translation itself is kind of nasty. The NASB is better I reckon.

[Fortigurn]

The translation doesn't read very well in places, but you have to remember that it's still being refined. The official 'Edition One' wasn't released until recently. The print copy I have is still only the 'Second Beta Version'.

Edited by Fortigurn, 04 July 2006 - 05:50 AM.

[Adanac]

Point taken. :shades:

[Fortigurn]

I just want a Chinese translation as soon as possible.

[didymus]

The Holman Christian Standard Version has been my preference of late. Sure, it has its detractors but as far as giving a modern rendering based on the "latest" manuscripts, it does a nice job. Margin notes abound which is nice. It is more accurate than the NIV but maybe not as literal than the English Standard Version or NASB.

The New American Standard has recently updated to read smoother and eliminated all the "thees & thous" that its predecessor had. This might be imprtant if you are looking for a "more literal" translation that avoids archaic language.

I also like the Revised Standard Version very much for a modern translation plus it is available in a study edition that has scads of historical information that I haven't seen in any other translation.

The best Bible is the one you actually read. As Weasley wrote,

Quote

Actually virtually all Bible translations are fairly good. All translations have bias and error, but it is very unusual for those errors and that bias to affect more than a very small part of the text in such a way that the gospel message is not able to be understood.

Choose one that you like and feel comfortable with, then as time and opportunity permit, purchase another version or two to get a broader range for content.

Crosswalk has several versions available to read online so you can get a "feel" for a version you like. Click on the link for the page to the website.

in blessing, bless

[Tarkus]

You don't want to believe in any Bible version.

You should believe the Bible, and believe in God. Any Bible version in your own language will be able to help you do this (with the exception of a few frivolous ones).

[Steven]

dupodong, on Jul 4 2006, 03:38 AM, said:

For there are many versions of Bibles in the world, and there also are lots of languages for conveying the Words from God.
But we all know, some wicked ones in history had distorted the real Bible in many ways, especially in its language for their own purpose.
so how to judge which one is the real one? and how to choose it?
for if we chose the wrong one, even if we had put all our effort, still we can never get the real meaning of it.
and the worst is we could possiblely walk along the wrong way and still believe in that we are walking in the light, that's terroble! for if we persist on doing it, we'd finnally drop into the Pit miserable, but not the Paradise regained.

so please help me to find the true Bible, and let me put all my trust into it, and share with the people the real meaning of the Word of God, and enjoy the real delight from the real God.
not the false prophet, or false Christ, that'd be horrible!

thanks a billion~~

Hi Dupodong
Welcome to this forum, I see from your time settings you are in Asia.

It depends which country you're in as to specifics, but generally the best combination is one colloquial version for daily reading, particularly in the Old Testament which can be heavy going, and a strict older translation for reference.

The problem is that in Asia the "strict" older translations really aren't that accurate. And to be honest, the English King James is often not too accurate either. The best "reference" Bible is the one you make yourself by adding pencil notes in the margin (the edge of the paper). At the end of the day no Bible is going to give a straight translation of phrases the translators disagreed with, so you have to do some work yourself.

God bless
Steven

[Asyncritus]

Dupodong

The best advice I can give you, as you can handle a computer, is to buy yourself (if you can find one in your part of the world) a copy of the Online Bible. There are some other equivalents on the web, and the other guys on the forum will tell you where they are.

The Online Bible has several different versions on the program, and you can (and should) look up what each different version says about each verse. You do that with one click on the tab at the top of the page.

No one version is always right, and no one version is always wrong, but eight different versions should give you a very clear idea of what any passage is saying.

I got mine here: www.online-bible.com It wasn't cheap, but it is worth a great deal, because it has saved me a great deal of time. It's got Strong's concordance on it, which is worth its weight in pure gold, and it's also got several commentaries built in, as well as space for notes and such, but you need to learn how to use it.

But the best advice is already given: the best version is one that you use!

Asyncritus

[Fortigurn]

Asyncritus, on Jul 5 2006, 06:36 AM, said:

It's got Strong's concordance on it, which is worth its weight in pure gold...

It's worth the weight of the electronic version in gold, that's for sure.

[Adanac]

Well without it you can't exactly do word searches.

[Fortigurn]

It might surprise you that there are other ways to do word searches.

[Adanac]

Like if you're searching for occurrences of a Greek or Hebrew word? I suppose you can type the word in its original form but it's so much easier using the Strong's #. Forget the lexicon but utilize the #s.

[dupodong]

hello all~~
tons of thanks for all of your kindness on my question, that is, How to choose a right version Bible.
but still i have a question in my mind, that is, if all of the Bible written in human word could have been distorted, for, even the ancient scriptures could be disfigured by someone or some organisations for their own intent. how could i know if the Bilbe is reliable or trustworthy?
is that mean that i could never get the real Word of God? it's horrible!
but the men who initially wrote this book will never lie to us. for they are the real witness if Jesus our Christ.
but with the time passing by, many prince on earth had known the power of the real God, and afraid of its only son, for his love have conquered death, and have the real reighn over humanbeings, and its real rule over men is his great infinite love.
so they, the princes on earth had distorted the Bible, greatly, and i even heard that John Bunyan, the author of PILGRIM'S PROGRESS, had violently disagreed the KJV BIBLE, pointing out there are a great number of disfigures in it. so how could a wrong BIBLE convey the right Word from God?

i'm confused.
please help~~~

cheers~~
carts of thanks in advance~~

[didymus]

Hi dupodong,

It is good that you are concerned with having an accurate translation, but as Tarkus and others have pointed out, none of the versions are entirely free from error or bias in doctrine or translation. What they do have in common is that they can make us wise unto salvation and give us the words of eternal life.

Steven's comments about finding a translation and putting your own marginal references in place is quite sound and will provide you with the best reference Bible you can own; the one that you did the work to learn, study, and obey.

Here are a few more sites that have on-line versions for you to look through:

BibleGateway

Bible.com

Bibles.net

Online Bible Software

bible.org *home of Fortigurn's favorite The Net Bible

The above should give you something to look through and help your studies. Let us know how it turns out.

in blessings, bless

[Steven]

Hi Du Podong
Perhaps it will help if you see it as something like this:

God's word 100%
Extant manuscripts 99.9%
Greek/Hebrew textual editions (Stuttgart Hebrew, Nestle Greek) 99.5%
Best translation 98%
Worst translation 95%
Best reader 70%
Worst reader 40%
Best non reader 0%

And remember that in Paul's day they had to use a translation as well. As Paul's converts couldn't read Hebrew, so their Bible (the Old Testament) was a translation into Greek. It is an okay translation, 98%, but it's still not the Hebrew 99.9%.

Generally the KJV is about 97~99% correct, which is good enough for most reference uses. But the main problem in the Bible is "itching ears" or "deaf ears". Not the translators.

dupodong, on Jul 5 2006, 07:03 AM, said:

i even heard that John Bunyan, the author of PILGRIM'S PROGRESS, had violently disagreed the KJV BIBLE, pointing out there are a great number of disfigures in it. so how could a wrong BIBLE convey the right Word from God?

Well Bunyan's book is a mix of Biblical and unbiblical ideas.

PS see also 求取真经

[seanbam]

-There should be a combined version eg http://www.freewebs....ition/bible.htm
-original languages (lexicon) (both oldest and newest versions.)
-as someone already said all trans/vers have both bad points and also good points, some more/less so than others.
-better to read (and practice/live) the bible than not to; but also JC said Pharisees/scribes were thoroughly versed in scriptures yet it did not do them any good.
-God is higher than human imperfections re writers. (Many languages but One God.)
-Best thing to do is just to try to be genuine/sincere/real with faith/repentance/obedience (like someone sort of said above re itching/deaf ears). (Plus I think I have heard that God judges you by what you genuinely believe?)
-fellowship with believers. (Listen to God's messengers.)
-holy spirit
-which translation you feel/think is best for you or rather which you believe/think/feel God thinks is best.
-traditional/oral Jewish (& Xtian) commentaries & cultural background. (And I have even found that like the bible can help interpret/translate mythology, mythology can also help to illustrate the bible.)
-Yes people like Bunyan, Tolkein etc are mixture of biblical and non.
-Even great people can be wrong in their statements/opinions (Luther, Bunyan, etc.)
-English is not the best language eg no cases.
-sometimes a word/phrase/verse may possibly mean both.
-consensus of best people thruout all time and whole world.
-be informed/aware of possible "conspiracies".
-With me atleast, over familiarity can breed contempt.
-Use the bible as a whole to interpret itself, the 2 good/pure & evil/corrupt lines are clear therein.
(Can people please stop calling men/males "guys"!)

Edited by seanbam, 10 July 2006 - 04:14 PM.

[dupodong]

thanks for all your kind helps! Didymus, Steven, and Seanbam, and all who helped me in this post
by the way, could put this question to you all, that is, could i find God's Word without reading any Bible?

for there is a saying, it says" God is in your heart, not outside your mind."

if it's within me, how could i find it, and keep his words?

and as we all know that Jesus was also never entering any kind of school, but how could he be so wise, having infinite intelligence without going school?
if he could do that, why should not we?
for if he is a man not a God, then we are equal in mental or physical abilities.
for there is also a proverb in Bible, In the presence of God, every being is equal.
if he is a God, why did he call himself the Son of God?


trucks of thanks in advance~~
cheers~~~

[didymus]

Hi, Du Podong!

You ask good questions. Allow me to give the recent ones a response.

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...could i find God's Word without reading any Bible?

Romans 1:18-32

In this passage, Paul gives a brief but appalling overview of the effect of people turning their backs on the Creator God. Mankind has worshipped the creation more than the Creator, and thus, God gave mankind over to vile affections and to a mind devoid of true judgment—his own natural mind. Since man's experiences shaped his judgment regarding conduct, his ability to judge truth became vague and led to the horrible perversions Paul lists. Today, the world groans with the weight of bearing the fruit of this idolatry.

Our own personal experience confirms the validity of these verses. Paul lists the consequences of a purely secular mind, which resulted from leaving the True Source of right standards out of our lives. He shows that when we follow the path described, we not only lose godliness but also true humanity. That a Creator God exists is evident. Every normally intelligent person, converted or unconverted, has enough capacity to be aware of God through his conscience. The expected outgrowth of this knowledge should be to glorify Him through praise and thanksgiving. The perversity appears when mankind largely ignores or resists what should be the expected inclination. The fact is that humans prefer their own ways over those of God. Despite our best efforts to follow our conscience we still give ourselves over to the flesh which is desperately wicked and in need of redemption.

The wonderful thing about the Bible is that it can make us wise unto salvation. While we may and should at least be able to see from creation and our own conscience that God exists, the way of reconciliation is only clearly laid out for us in the words of Scripture. Thus we have the account of Philip preaching to the Ethiopian eunuch. Philip explained the gospel message through the words of the prophet Isaiah. This would not have been possible were it not for the written word of God.

in blessing, bless

[didymus]

Hi again, Du Podong!

Quote

for there is a saying, it says" God is in your heart, not outside your mind."

if it's within me, how could i find it, and keep his words?

I am not familiar with your first saying, "God is in your heart, not outside your mind." The record of Scripture claims quite the opposite.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? [Jer 17:9]

Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God being "within" you. A better translation would be "among you."

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. [Luke 17:21]

Most modern translations have recognized the grammatical error oftranslating the Greek word, entos as "within" changing it correctly to read "among" or "in the midst of." Some texts, like the New King James and the New International versions, persist in using "within," though they note in the margin that "among" is an alternative.

Even without this technical knowledge of Greek, we could have easily understood that "within" is a poor and misleading translation. Christ was answering a question posed by the Pharisees, and He replied directly to them: "He answered them and said, . . . 'For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.'" But how could the Kingdom of God be within His most bitter enemies? How many times did He reveal them to be hyprocritical and misleading the people? Theologically, it is quite impossible to think that His Kingdom would be in the Pharisees.

It is only after He had made this remark that He turned to His disciples [verse 22] and explained what He meant. The subject of the entire section [verses 20-37] is stated most explicitly in verse 30: "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed." All along, He had been explaining His second coming! When He returns, He will set up His Kingdom on earth [Zechariah 14:9].

If the Kingdom is still future, how could He say that "the kingdom of God is among you"? A king, rules by law over a number of subjects who live within a certain territory. The primary trait is that a kingdom must be ruled by a king; otherwise, the country has some other form of government. A king of any nation is the chief representative of that nation. And the King of the Kingdom of God is none other than the living Jesus Christ! Since Jesus was there in their midst, the kingdom was among them.

Quote

if it's within me, how could i find it, and keep his words?

Hopefully this was made clear above. If not, allow this brief restating.
The physical kingdom is not YET revealed. This will happen at the second coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead. What we do have now is the hope of this event along with the Bible. How do you find the Kingdom? The simplest answer is to read and study the Bible regarding the Promises to Abraham, and king David.

Lectures 8-13 of Christendom Astray covers this topic nicely and can be found HERE

At the time of Christ's return we have this promise:

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [Hebrews 8:10,11]

The process has already begun in us, incrementally, as God gradually displaces our carnality and sin, leading to righteous behavior and godliness through dedicated prayer and Bible study. Actually, no human being is completely converted, but many people are in various stages of conversion.

conversion, then, is a life-long process in which we move from a reactive approach to lawkeeping—motivated by rewards and punishments—to a proactive approach—motivated by a deeply placed inner desire to yield and comply to the law's principles, knowing intrinsically from experience that they work for the good and harmony of all.

Quote

...and keep his words?

Christadelphians have a work entitled, The Commandments of Christ that helps us keep the Master's words. An online edition of this can be found HERE

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. [1 John 5:2,3]

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and as we all know that Jesus was also never entering any kind of school, but how could he be so wise, having infinite intelligence without going school?
if he could do that, why should not we?
for if he is a man not a God, then we are equal in mental or physical abilities.
for there is also a proverb in Bible, In the presence of God, every being is equal.
if he is a God, why did he call himself the Son of God?

And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men [Lk.2:52]

Jesus had to grow in wisdom by learning life's lessons and being obedient. Additionally, he didn't know everything as made evident by his statement about not knowing when he would return to earth, or whether the man who had been sitting for 38 years [John 5:6] really wanted to be made whole (well).

Of course Jesus was extremely wise and had great intelligence but he was not all-knowing. The miracles that he did, he attributed to the Father working through him [ John 5:26-30] and giving him the authority to do so. We too represent the Father to those around us as we reflect the character of His son and obey his word. Yes, why should not we. Afterall, this is how people will know that we are followers of Jesus.

I doubt that few of us would say that we are equal to Jesus in mental or physical abilities. For example, I have difficulty fasting more than a couple days, let alone 40! There's no way that I could bear up to the torture that the scourging and crucifixion caused my Lord. No, I don't have anywhere near his physical endurance or strength.

"Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons." [Acts 10:34]

The phrase "God is no respecter of persons" means that His dealings with a man are not based on outward appearance, position, rank, wealth or nationality. We all, because of our fallen and sinful nature, are guilty of respecting persons. God does not look to the outward face of a man to determine His dealings with anyone. The literal rendering of this phrase "to respect persons" is "to receive the face". It is to look at the outward appearance and make that the basis for your dealing with such a person.

Quote

if he is a God, why did he call himself the Son of God?

Jesus is not "a" God. To make him so would be to contradict his plain statement of being the Son of God and his recognition of his Father as being, the only True God [ John 17:3]. He is a man, without sin. He called himself the son of God because God is his Father.

Thanks again for the questions!

edit: to fix quotes

in blessing, bless

Edited by didymus, 10 July 2006 - 06:49 AM.

[dupodong]

Hi Didymus,

Quote

I doubt that few of us would say that we are equal to Jesus in mental or physical abilities. For example, I have difficulty fasting more than a couple days, let alone 40! There's no way that I could bear up to the torture that the scourging and crucifixion caused my Lord. No, I don't have anywhere near his physical endurance or strength.

thanks for your responses!
but if we cannot endure that kind of scourging and crucifixion, how can we be called a real believer in Jesus?
and how can we be converted from a common man into his fellow believers?
for if we still wait for his saving, we would like to lessen our own works,and to rely on his sufferings.
how could we so cruel that seeing his blood sheding out without any mercy?
and if we cannot bear the pain that he'd beared, may be we could betray him for our own life's sake.
but He said in Gospels, "Anyone who save his life will lose it, but anyone who lose his life for my sake, will have the life eternal."
so if we cannot bear the pain that he'd suffered, how can we have the courage saying ,"Yes, i'm your disciple!"
perhaps, we'd be like the Peter who said he would like to lay down his life for Jesus, yet when Jesus was arrested, carring the cross on the street, he denied him thrice!
why he denied him so much times?
if he has the same courage as Jesus, how could that happen?
and Judas, the Jesus-betrayer, who for the sake of his own interests, and his own life, betrayed his master!
therefore, what i mean hear is, if we cannot suffer from the same pains as our Lord Jesus had suffered, how can we say that we are his disciples?

Edited by dupodong, 10 July 2006 - 08:36 AM.

[dupodong]

Hi again , Didymus,

Quote

Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God being "within" you. A better translation would be "among you."

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. [Luke 17:21]

but if the kingdom of God is among us, that'd cause a new idolatry, for the God is among us, we could seek him among ourselves, yet, no one on earth can bear such a great name, if he does bear, maybe he want to establish his own authority.

and if God is among us, there will be another bad results, that is, we could forsake our own prayer and follow the one who said he is the real messenger from God.
so , Jesus'd already predicted this to happen in the last days, so he tell us,
"M't:24:23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
M't:24:24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
M't:24:25: Behold, I have told you before.
M't:24:26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.M't:24:27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
M't:24:28: For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

so the word, Among, i consider, is not that suitable for replacing the word Within.


bliss to you~

[dupodong]

hi once more Didymus,
and if we can not have the same mental or physical abilities, how can we recognise the same God as Jesus had perceived?
or, if he is the only one who can know God, how can we have another opportunity to know the same God?
if we are all the same in God's eyes, then why cannot we have the same chance to realise God on our own.
and if we rely on some one who said he is the only one God's word's interpreter, maybe he would be a liar, not a saviour for our afflictions.
and maybe he'd trade his false knowledge about his God for his money's sake.
for many teachers at present time,selling the students whom they'are teaching with the knowledge they gained from above, but if the students could gain it on his own, how could that dirty trade happen?
yes, in reality there are a lot of socalled teachers, severed the very source of knowledge between God and men, and bargain their stealed things for money.
and some school bargain their knowledge for students' money.
they are not teaching for God's sake, but for their own interests and pleasure./

thirst for your answers~~

cheers~~~

[seanbam]

Here are a few more points I can add to the others answers (I don't want to give wrong impression that I'm trying beat the others! I couln't have done it with out their stimulus).

I think there is a verse somewhere that says that evidence of God is in his creation and so no one will have an excuse on judgement day. God also sends messengers/revelations. And another verse says eternity in their hearts. Also look at how evidence of knowledge of God is even in pagan myths and legends (One can find historical and prophetic figures of bible in myth. Tolkein who everyone else is so enthusiastic about recently said all myth points to Christ.) Also, Christians are supposed to be living examples that JC is true, non-Xtians are watching them. All "scriptures" have some truth/s in them but if Judaeo-Xtian God is true then only the bible is the one highest book.
"Seek/search and you shall find".
I once heard Derek Prince say we can't say we respect God if we don't respect his messengers, yet it also says search the scriptures yourself to make sure what they say is true.

God is everywhere (re inside/heart). But the difference between pantheism and Judaeo-Xtianity is that they say God is everything, God/Force is thruout everthing, that we have god/God within, that we are all gods/forces as manifestations/emanations of "the One" God(dess)/Force. In both tho, man has become fallen/separated/Dualist and seeks reunion with God/Holism. Fallen sinners can't "find God within". God comes and "dwells within" Xtians (when one has faith/repents/forgiven) like ark of covenant, (and Xtians are "within God" like ark of Noah). ("If you regard iniquity in your heart God will not hear/answer you".)
But it is a good question how can we know (for sure if it is God) when God speaks to us.

It is not necessarily true that JC didn't go to school etc. For one thing surely he was brought up in/with Jewish oral tradition etc. (some say word for carpenter is a term for an intiate).
God can give a person extra gifts but he also uses the ones he has given us naturally, and compare Moses who had all that Egyptian schooling on one hand and whose speaking difficulty God made up for on other.
In this world thruout history humans are not all equal in inner and outer abilities. The "lower" (fallen/corrupt) you are the more God is seen to make up for it compare how holy spirit transformed ex-fishermen apostles). The amazing thing about the bible is its layers of depth. The simplest and the most academic alike can personally get much out of it according to their own ability/character.

As didymus said about your quote about being equal in Gods eyes: Xtians are saved by grace thru faith not by race, wealth, strength, goodness, works, etc. Some are more fallen, some are less fallen, yet all equally fallen/dualist because only perfect/holistic/pure can be with perfect good God.

It is written that God doesn't test us more than he knows we can really bear, and that he provides way of escape (but I would be somwhat of a hypocrite here because I gave up on God because of ongoing miserable life.)

(I need to have a rest now before I consider possibly answering your 2nd to last post of questions and remaining 1st 3 sentences of last one.)

Edited by seanbam, 11 July 2006 - 03:38 PM.

[didymus]

Hi Du Podong,

You are quite welcome for the responses. That's what the forum is for...um, asking and answering :coffee:

Quote

but if we cannot endure that kind of scourging and crucifixion, how can we be called a real believer in Jesus?
and how can we be converted from a common man into his fellow believers?

Jesus does call us to take up our cross and follow him but in what sense? Did he mean that we have to be prepared for physical torture, well, yes. Some parts of the world still persecute christians in brutally physical ways. So then how do we prepare ourselves for persecution and suffering?

Might I suggest that we do so by careful prayer, fellowship, and studying our bibles. We get support and strength through all these. And while we may not be called upon to offer our lives in bloody persecution or physical torture, we still must "put to death our flesh with its desires and lusts." This can be as strenuous in many respects because it requires a daily offering of ourselves, our will, and consent to that of our Father and our Lord. The process of conversion can take a long time perhaps not even until the resurrection will we be fully converted. All the same, we live in that hope, working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Jesus not only calls us his fellow believers (servants) but more that that, his friends. In John 15 we read:

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

From these we discover that the mark of our discipleship is in doing what Jesus commanded. Above all this summed up in loving one another. Breaking it down further we show this through not being selfish. Using Paul's list of what not to do in Galations chapter 5 is also helpful:

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Quote

perhaps, we'd be like the Peter who said he would like to lay down his life for Jesus, yet when Jesus was arrested, carring the cross on the street, he denied him thrice!
why he denied him so much times?
if he has the same courage as Jesus, how could that happen?
and Judas, the Jesus-betrayer, who for the sake of his own interests, and his own life, betrayed his master!
therefore, what i mean hear is, if we cannot suffer from the same pains as our Lord Jesus had suffered, how can we say that we are his disciples?

I for one claim identification with Peter. I have denied Jesus many times. Denied him by not loving as I should, by neglecting prayer-time, Bible study, fellowship, prefering my own interests over those of others. The list could go on. I write that to my shame and Christ's glory because just like Peter, I too have been given forgiveness and new opportunities to share my faith with others and to follow the Mater's commands to love. Peter didn't have the same courage as Jesus at the time but later we read in the book of Acts how Peter preached the gospel with boldness, how he was cast into prison and chained. Peter's life was transformed. According to some traditions he too was crucified but didn't think he was worthy to die the same way as Jesus so he requested being crucified upside down on his cross. Indeed Peter had his share of weak moments when he allowed his human nature to rule but in the end he was restored and was mightily used of God to preach and heal and become a role model for generations of us who can all relate to him.

We can say that we are his disciples if we do the things he asks of us. Will we mess up? Of course we will. But that doesn't mean we can't be restored through repentance and seeking forgiveness.

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so the word, Among, i consider, is not that suitable for replacing the word Within.

Remember the context? Jesus wsa standing among the Pharisees. Although the Pharisees didn't recognise Jesus being King of anything, Jesus knew he was in fact the king whose kingdom was not of this present time. He admitted as much to Pilate when he was asked, "are you a king then?" This is my point, Jesus was a king albeit unknown to them who at that time was standing among a group of people. He was not literally within or inside them. The Matthew 24 refs are prophetic of when Jesus returns as king. Then he will be recognised!

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and if we can not have the same mental or physical abilities, how can we recognise the same God as Jesus had perceived?

We recognise Him through creation itself, through our conscience, and most importantly, through the revelation He has provided in the Bible.

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or, if he is the only one who can know God, how can we have another opportunity to know the same God?

God, the Father gives us opportunity to know Him through all of the above and in the life of His son, Jesus. We discover this best through reading our Bibles. Jesus is the perfect representative of his Father to us and told his disciple Philip: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? [John 14:9]

A few verses later we read:

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

The word manifest means "to make known." So we can determine that if we keep Christ's commandments, we prove our love and will be loved by the Father who will make Himself known to us.

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if we are all the same in God's eyes, then why cannot we have the same chance to realise God on our own.

This may sound harsh but the thing of it is that not everyone had or has the same opportunity to respond to the gospel. God will work out the details and it my confidence that this will be done in the best possible way to show the Father's mercy and justice.

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...but if the students could gain it on his own, how could that dirty trade happen?

The sad fact is that many have given up the opportunity for gaining personal knowledge of God by not reading their Bibles. Instead many choose to allow a man to teach them what he thinks the Bible says. They forfeit the "truth of God for a lie" in most instances. I think the fact that most churches have paid clergy caused this. There seems to be an idea that people who sit in pews are somehow not qualified to read and discover for themselves what the Bible has to say about the gospel message. The separation between clergy and laity goes back a long time in history, rarely with any positive results.

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Thanks again for your questions

in blessings, bless

[seanbam]

Our "conscience" can be wrong sometimes (?)

quote: Jesus was standing among the Pharisees. Although the Pharisees didn't recognise Jesus being King of anything, Jesus knew he was in fact the king whose kingdom was not of this present time. He admitted as much to Pilate when he was asked, "are you a king then?" This is my point, Jesus was a king albeit unknown to them who at that time was standing among a group of people. He was not literally within or inside them."
That is quite a good illustration didymus.

I'm not sure if this is right but we all have our own different scarifices/crosses to make/bear (?)
Even without God humans often find in situations to have amazing ability to endure pain etc.
The fact that the apostles all went to pretty painful endings show how much strength God/holy spirit gave them.
Someone once said it is easy to die for Christ but harder to live for him.
Thats quite good about being prepared didymus.
Remeber also the angels did minister to JC after he went thru his tough temptation.
Only with God (and each other) can we endure it.
Re Peter: do you know that the reason why JC asked Peter 3x if he loved him and told him to feed his sheep (3rd time Peter replies with a different word for love) is tied into Peter 3x denying him.

[didymus]

Seanbam wrote:

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Our "conscience" can be wrong sometimes (?)

Our conscience can be(come) many things. Please find a brief study below that hopefully will explain what I meant. Your question mark led me to think that I might not have been clear enough in my above post.


What is our conscience?

That faculty within us which decides as to the moral
quality of our thoughts, words, and acts. It gives
consciousness of the good of one's conduct or motives,
or causes feelings of remorse at evil-doing. A conscience
can be educated, or trained to recognize good and evil, but
its action is involuntary. A good conscience is one which
has no feeling of reproach against oneself, does not accuse
oneself, does not accuse oneself of wilful wrong.

Luke writes in Acts 24:16 "because of the hope I have in
God about the resurrection of the dead, I myself always
strive to have a good/pure conscience toward God and men".

Convicted by their own conscience, John 8:9
Can be evil - Heb 10:22
Can be seared - 1 Tim 4:2
Can be defiled - Tit 1:15
Ignorant - 1 Tim 1:13
Can be choked with dead works - Heb 9:14
Lived in all good conscience, Act 23:1

"their conscience also bearing", Rom 2:15
"my conscience bearing me witness in, Rom 9:1
"subject also for conscience sake, Rom 13:5
Conscience of the idol -- conscience being weak, I Cor 8:7,10,12.
No question for conscience sake, 1 Cor 10:25,27,28,29
Testimony of our conscience, 2 Cor 1:12
Every person's conscience, 2 Cor 4:2

pure heart, good conscience, 1 Tim 1:5
holding faith and a good conscience, 1 Tim 1:19
mystery of faith in a pure conscience, 1 Tim 3:9

serve God with conscience, 2 Tim 1:3
their mind and conscience is..., Tit 1:15
pertaining to the conscience, Heb 9:9

should have no more conscience of..., Heb 10:2
we trust we have a good conscience, Heb 13:18
conscience toward..., 1 Pet 2:19
good conscience, 1 Pet 3:16


1 John 3:20 - If our heart condemns us, God is greater
than our hearts and knows everything.
Conscience can be cleansed through blood of Jesus.
Blood <--> Body
Rom 6:3 - Baptized into His death.
1 Cor 12:13 - By one spirit, baptized into one body.
Gal 3:27 - Put on Christ in baptism.
Death <--> Blood
Rom 6:3 - Baptized into His death.
1 Pet 3:21 - (Baptism and good conscience are related)

The following section is entitled "violation of the conscience"

A. Rom 14:23
1. refers to a man's personal conviction or opinion
about a matter.
2. whatever is not done conscientiously is sinful
3. in early church, some christians who couldn't in
good conscience eat meat offered to an idol.
a. I Cor 8&10, taught it was ok to eat
b. but read Rom 14:23 carefully.
4. bottom line... it is wrong to do what one thinks is
evil, though in God's eyes the practice is not wrong
per se.
5. class - can you give an example of a person who
believes something is wrong in their own sight?
6. playing cards, voting, go to war and kill, playing
pool, etc.
7. CAUTION: don't ever encourage someone to violate his
or her conscience.
8. a person's conscience is to him/her the very voice of
God.
9. he/she may be wrong, but he/she must always uphold
his/her conscience (until he/she learns)
10. your next question: "do you, do I believe that
conscience alone is a safe guide?"
be patient with others, remembering that all
our brothers and sisters in Christ are not on the
same level at the same point in time.

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in blessing, bless

[Asyncritus]

Hi Didymus

Quick, but serious question here.

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I for one claim identification with Peter. I have denied Jesus many times. Denied him by not loving as I should, by neglecting prayer-time, Bible study, fellowship, prefering my own interests over those of others.

Do you think that 'disobeying' and 'denying' Him are the same thing?

Async