17 replies to this topic

[Striving]

Tongues, healing, etc, I don't know.

How much of the Holy Spirit is active in our lives these days? Do CDNs believe that each individual can be guided by the spirit? What is meant when it is said 'the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been withdrawn?' How much does the Holy Spirit interact with us? Do we expect to see visions, hear voices or however God speaks to us?

Or is it all just us and the Bible in these latter days?

[He-man]

Striving, on Mar 13 2006, 03:58 AM, said:

Tongues, healing, etc, I don't know.

How much of the Holy Spirit is active in our lives these days? Do CDNs believe that each individual can be guided by the spirit? What is meant when it is said 'the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been withdrawn?' How much does the Holy Spirit interact with us? Do we expect to see visions, hear voices or however God speaks to us?

Or is it all just us and the Bible in these latter days?

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

The apostles had the POWER of the Holy Spirit to Heal, Baptise, and overcome evil. We have the POWER of the Word of God, which is the Spirit of Truth and the ability to know the difference. We do not Heal or have those same powers to resurrect from the dead or to speak several (unknown tongues) languages of which we have had no schooling.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

[Colter]

Striving, on Mar 13 2006, 09:58 AM, said:

Tongues, healing, etc, I don't know.

How much of the Holy Spirit is active in our lives these days? Do CDNs believe that each individual can be guided by the spirit? What is meant when it is said 'the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been withdrawn?' How much does the Holy Spirit interact with us? Do we expect to see visions, hear voices or however God speaks to us?

Or is it all just us and the Bible in these latter days?

A child of God must be spirit born manifesting the fruits of the spirit in their lives. We cannot stand still in the affairs of the kingdom, we must continue to demonstrate the presence of the spirit and grow in grace by the consent renewing of our minds.

People can be religious but not spirit born, the enemies of Jesus whose father was the devil were very religious people, preoccupied with their own self righteousness but they did not recognize the voice of the shephard, the love of God.

When we are born of the spirit we must surrender our EGO based self to the indwelling spirit. "He who would save his life will loose it but he who will give it up will find life eternal."

I've noticed that Christians can become very "knowledgeable" about religion the Bible etc. but turn a deaf ear to the voice of the shephard, they "get good" forgetting their own sins or remaining oblivious to them all together and set out to distinguish themselves by confessing the faults of others. I have done this in my own spiritual life.

God is not a set of rules, he is a person not a doctrine. When we formulate doctrines we turn God into a "golden calf" all over again. The spirit is a living dynamic presence and will lead us into all truth throughout our universe career.


Colter

[Dianne]

Striving, on Mar 13 2006, 05:58 PM, said:

Tongues, healing, etc, I don't know.

How much of the Holy Spirit is active in our lives these days?

If you mean Holy Spirit 'in-dwelling' then no.

Quote

Do CDNs believe that each individual can be guided by the spirit?

What do you mean by Spirit?

Quote

What is meant when it is said 'the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been withdrawn?'

See 1Corinthians 13. The gifts that are left to us now are Faith, Hope, and Love.

Quote

How much does the Holy Spirit interact with us?

Again, I'll leave this question to more capable hands.

Quote

Do we expect to see visions, hear voices or however God speaks to us?

No.

Quote

Or is it all just us and the Bible in these latter days?

It's about Faith, Hope, and Love.

[Dawn]

Striving, on Mar 13 2006, 09:58 AM, said:

Tongues, healing, etc, I don't know.

I've been out of CDN fellowship for 12 years now and have mixed quite a lot with "Spirit-filled" Christians during that time, and I must say that I don't know either: in fact, I would go furhter and say I am very sceptical. I am afraid I see very little or no evidence of REAL Spirit gifts: and even "Spirit-filled" Christians sometimes question it.

Tongues is the most common gift practices - but apparently many religions practice it.

However, if any Christian I know practices it then I have to leave it between them and God, but I do not practice it. The things is, how do you know it is from God or not? If I could be sure it was a proper tongue that would be OK - but they all sound very much the same to me when you listen to them. Occasionally I have heard "interpretations" - but often these are far longer than the words spoken in the "tongue" - so I wonder is it really an interpretation, or is it the person getting carried away? I have know way of knowing for sure.

Quote

How much of the Holy Spirit is active in our lives these days?

Well I do belive that the Holy Spirit supernaturally can move upon people to bring about certain circumstances and events in our lives - even quite insignificant ones. We are not always aware of this. Scriptural examples include Simeon in the Temple when Mary and Joseph brought their offering, and the Holy Spirit moved on Simeon to get him in a certain place at a certain time in contact with Mary and Joseph and Jesus as a baby. I think its something we cannot really measure. Otherwise we're just down to co-incidences.

However, by reading the Word, the Holy Spirit can be the most active in that there is conviction of sin (Scripture is quite clear that conviction of sin is a principle activity of the Holy Spirit int he world) and our minds are renewed through reading the Word, and so we "live in the Spirit" because reading Scripture is absorbed into our hearts and minds

Quote

Do CDNs believe that each individual can be guided by the spirit?

I would say generally no - or many would be cautious of saying yes even if they thought each individual can be guided by the spirit - though a few CDNs I think would say definitely "yes". Bro. Don Styles put it in black and white in one of his editorials in "Christadelphian Tidings" and Bro Len Richardson has a fresh view on the work of the Holy Spirit in his book "Balancing the Book". When I get time, I will give you some quotes from them for you to think about.

Quote

What is meant when it is said 'the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been withdrawn?'

I would say this means that the miraculous gifts (total healings and raising from the dead, tongues with interpretation) which the Apostles displayed are no longer seen in evidence today - and even most "Spirit-filled" Christians would have to agree with this if you press them. However, this is not to say God cannot restore them again in the last days to whoever He wills at some point in the future.

The thing about the gifts being withdrawn: it is actually a historical fact. In the early church, they stopped. I think even most mainstream Christians would acknowledge this?

Quote

How much does the Holy Spirit interact with us?

FWIW, I personally believe that in the "indwelling" of the Spirit is through faith and reading of God's Word:

Here is a little study I put together:

Quote

INDWELLING: "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead DWELL IN YOU, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit THAT DWELLETH IN YOU" Rom 8:11

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God DWELLETH IN YOU" 1 Cor 3:16

GIVEN FOR LOVE: "And hope maketh not ashemd; because the love of God is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit which is GIVEN UNTO US" Rom 5:5

"and he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, BY THE SPIRIT WHICH HE HATH GIVEN US" 1 John 3:24

"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, BECAUSE HE HATH GIVEN US OF HIS SPIRIT". 1 John 4:13

"He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also GIVEN UNTO US HIS HOLY SPIRIT" 1 thess 4:8

SANCTIFICATION: "NOT by works of righteousness WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and RENEWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT" Titus 3:5

TEACHER: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of god. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Cor 6:11ff

Quote

Do we expect to see visions, hear voices or however God speaks to us?

I would say be cautious but I guess its not impossible. I find that God speaks to me best through my daily readings from His Word (which is Holy Spirit inspired from beginning to end: and of that we can be 100% certain). It's amazing how often my personal circumstances fit in with the readings, whether it be comfort or reproof or guidance.

Quote

Or is it all just us and the Bible in these latter days?

I personally would say its a little more than that, because the Holy Spirit convicts of sin often without people being aware of the Bible.

Also there are people who read the Bible avidly, but their lives are barren and bear little fruit. So I would say that in order for the Holy Spirit to"dwell" within us, we need hungry hearts to put into practice those things which manifest the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, self-control etc). If we have hungry hearts then we will be fertile ground for bearing fruit: for me 2 Peter 1 is the key - it is about being "diligent" (which is sacraficial actually: the Christian life is demanding and costly) - BUT, if we give "ALL DILIGENCE" to adding to our faith "virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control patience, and to patience, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love, for IF these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ".

The Holy Spirit never controls anyone.

(Ooops - long post, sorry).

Edited by Dawn, 13 March 2006 - 02:35 PM.

[Striving]

Thank you all for your replies

[Adanac]

Yes we are guided by the spirit in the sense of Romans 8.

[Bast]

Adanac, on Mar 13 2006, 11:31 AM, said:

Yes we are guided by the spirit in the sense of Romans 8.

Hi Adanac,

How do you see the spirit leading believers in Romans?

Be well, Bast

I am looking forward to your response, I really enjoy your posts. Short on words, long on meaning.

p.s. That doesn't mean I want you to keep your reply down to a few sentences.

[Adanac]

Oh thanks Bast, it's because I don't have a huge amount of time to make long drawn-out posts. I can be very wordy and flowery when I put my mind to it.

I think Romans 2:4 helps us understand - "the kindness of God leads us to repentance". It's the same Greek "to lead" here and in Romans 8. I don't believe in the idea that we are somehow taken over mystically by the Holy Spirit in the evangelical sense - God doesn't work that way, he doesn't program us to obey him. We are guided by his spirit, the way he treats us, adopting us as his sons and daughters, being kind to us, showing us the example of his son, leaving on record his word - these things we imbibe and they guide us.

[luke]

Adanac, on Mar 14 2006, 12:59 AM, said:

We are guided by his spirit, the way he treats us, adopting us as his sons and daughters, being kind to us,

I've noticed this quite often in Ps. 119 recently. For example, in v68 the Psalmist see the way God acts, sees that it's a good way to act, and therefore wants to follow that way; he says: -

Quote

You are good and do good;
teach me your statutes.

The Psalmist sees how God behaves, recognises that it's a lovely way to behave, and therefore wants to follow it.

(I'd say that the Psalmist especially sees how God treats him, with kindness and favour (grace), so personally recognises that God is good - it's motivating when we are treated well: it motivates us to treat others well, too, because we realise how nice it is to be treated with favour.)

Another interesting verse in regad to this is Titus 2:11-13, which says: -

Quote

... the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus

Here we are told that the grace of God (i.e. God's kindness to us) teaches us. We see how God acts and lives (especially how He acts and behaves towards us in kindness), and that teaches us to act and behave in good way.

The spirit of God (i.e. God's attitude and behaviour) really does guide us.

[Adanac]

Thanks Luke for those thoughts.

[Matt Smith]

The stuff on whether God is a person has be split out of here and moved to General Theology.

[ned]

Dawn, on Mar 14 2006, 12:33 AM, said:

Striving, on Mar 13 2006, 09:58 AM, said:

Tongues, healing, etc, I don't know.

I've been out of CDN fellowship for 12 years now and have mixed quite a lot with "Spirit-filled" Christians during that time, and I must say that I don't know either: in fact, I would go furhter and say I am very sceptical. I am afraid I see very little or no evidence of REAL Spirit gifts: and even "Spirit-filled" Christians sometimes question it.

Tongues is the most common gift practices - but apparently many religions practice it.

However, if any Christian I know practices it then I have to leave it between them and God, but I do not practice it. The things is, how do you know it is from God or not? If I could be sure it was a proper tongue that would be OK - but they all sound very much the same to me when you listen to them. Occasionally I have heard "interpretations" - but often these are far longer than the words spoken in the "tongue" - so I wonder is it really an interpretation, or is it the person getting carried away? I have know way of knowing for sure.

Quote

How much of the Holy Spirit is active in our lives these days?

Well I do belive that the Holy Spirit supernaturally can move upon people to bring about certain circumstances and events in our lives - even quite insignificant ones. We are not always aware of this. Scriptural examples include Simeon in the Temple when Mary and Joseph brought their offering, and the Holy Spirit moved on Simeon to get him in a certain place at a certain time in contact with Mary and Joseph and Jesus as a baby. I think its something we cannot really measure. Otherwise we're just down to co-incidences.

However, by reading the Word, the Holy Spirit can be the most active in that there is conviction of sin (Scripture is quite clear that conviction of sin is a principle activity of the Holy Spirit int he world) and our minds are renewed through reading the Word, and so we "live in the Spirit" because reading Scripture is absorbed into our hearts and minds

Quote

Do CDNs believe that each individual can be guided by the spirit?

I would say generally no - or many would be cautious of saying yes even if they thought each individual can be guided by the spirit - though a few CDNs I think would say definitely "yes". Bro. Don Styles put it in black and white in one of his editorials in "Christadelphian Tidings" and Bro Len Richardson has a fresh view on the work of the Holy Spirit in his book "Balancing the Book". When I get time, I will give you some quotes from them for you to think about.

Quote

What is meant when it is said 'the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been withdrawn?'

I would say this means that the miraculous gifts (total healings and raising from the dead, tongues with interpretation) which the Apostles displayed are no longer seen in evidence today - and even most "Spirit-filled" Christians would have to agree with this if you press them. However, this is not to say God cannot restore them again in the last days to whoever He wills at some point in the future.

The thing about the gifts being withdrawn: it is actually a historical fact. In the early church, they stopped. I think even most mainstream Christians would acknowledge this?

Quote

How much does the Holy Spirit interact with us?

FWIW, I personally believe that in the "indwelling" of the Spirit is through faith and reading of God's Word:

Here is a little study I put together:

Quote

INDWELLING: "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead DWELL IN YOU, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit THAT DWELLETH IN YOU" Rom 8:11

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God DWELLETH IN YOU" 1 Cor 3:16

GIVEN FOR LOVE: "And hope maketh not ashemd; because the love of God is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit which is GIVEN UNTO US" Rom 5:5

"and he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, BY THE SPIRIT WHICH HE HATH GIVEN US" 1 John 3:24

"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, BECAUSE HE HATH GIVEN US OF HIS SPIRIT". 1 John 4:13

"He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also GIVEN UNTO US HIS HOLY SPIRIT" 1 thess 4:8

SANCTIFICATION: "NOT by works of righteousness WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and RENEWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT" Titus 3:5

TEACHER: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of god. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Cor 6:11ff

Quote

Do we expect to see visions, hear voices or however God speaks to us?

I would say be cautious but I guess its not impossible. I find that God speaks to me best through my daily readings from His Word (which is Holy Spirit inspired from beginning to end: and of that we can be 100% certain). It's amazing how often my personal circumstances fit in with the readings, whether it be comfort or reproof or guidance.

Quote

Or is it all just us and the Bible in these latter days?

I personally would say its a little more than that, because the Holy Spirit convicts of sin often without people being aware of the Bible.

Also there are people who read the Bible avidly, but their lives are barren and bear little fruit. So I would say that in order for the Holy Spirit to"dwell" within us, we need hungry hearts to put into practice those things which manifest the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, self-control etc). If we have hungry hearts then we will be fertile ground for bearing fruit: for me 2 Peter 1 is the key - it is about being "diligent" (which is sacraficial actually: the Christian life is demanding and costly) - BUT, if we give "ALL DILIGENCE" to adding to our faith "virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control patience, and to patience, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love, for IF these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ".

The Holy Spirit never controls anyone.

(Ooops - long post, sorry).

Dawn this is a terrific post.

[God&me]

Striving, on Mar 13 2006, 10:58 AM, said:

Tongues, healing, etc, I don't know.

How much of the Holy Spirit is active in our lives these days? Do CDNs believe that each individual can be guided by the spirit? What is meant when it is said 'the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been withdrawn?' How much does the Holy Spirit interact with us? Do we expect to see visions, hear voices or however God speaks to us?

Or is it all just us and the Bible in these latter days?

The Bible doesn't say the gifts of the holy Spirit have been withdrawn.
Only the true Christians can use the gifts of the holy Spirit, As Go wills.
Christians should expect to see visions and hear God's voice.

Edited by God&me, 05 June 2009 - 07:11 AM.

[God&me]

Dianne, on Mar 13 2006, 02:55 PM, said:

Striving, on Mar 13 2006, 05:58 PM, said:

Tongues, healing, etc, I don't know.

How much of the Holy Spirit is active in our lives these days?

If you mean Holy Spirit 'in-dwelling' then no.

Quote

Do CDNs believe that each individual can be guided by the spirit?

What do you mean by Spirit?

Quote

What is meant when it is said 'the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been withdrawn?'

See 1Corinthians 13. The gifts that are left to us now are Faith, Hope, and Love.

Quote

How much does the Holy Spirit interact with us?

Again, I'll leave this question to more capable hands.

Quote

Do we expect to see visions, hear voices or however God speaks to us?

No.

Quote

Or is it all just us and the Bible in these latter days?

It's about Faith, Hope, and Love.

[1] It is true that the Spirit doesn't indwell christadelphians, But it does indwell true Christians.

[2] 1 Cor 13; does say that Prophecy and tongues will cease, But it doesn't say they have.
Not until The perfect one [Jesus] brings in His perfect Kingdom. [The hereafter].

[3] It is true that christadelphians can't see visions and here God voice. But true Christians can, should and do.

[God&me]

Dawn, on Mar 13 2006, 03:33 PM, said:

Striving, on Mar 13 2006, 09:58 AM, said:

Tongues, healing, etc, I don't know.

I've been out of CDN fellowship for 12 years now and have mixed quite a lot with "Spirit-filled" Christians during that time, and I must say that I don't know either: in fact, I would go furhter and say I am very sceptical. I am afraid I see very little or no evidence of REAL Spirit gifts: and even "Spirit-filled" Christians sometimes question it.

Tongues is the most common gift practices - but apparently many religions practice it.

However, if any Christian I know practices it then I have to leave it between them and God, but I do not practice it. The things is, how do you know it is from God or not? If I could be sure it was a proper tongue that would be OK - but they all sound very much the same to me when you listen to them. Occasionally I have heard "interpretations" - but often these are far longer than the words spoken in the "tongue" - so I wonder is it really an interpretation, or is it the person getting carried away? I have know way of knowing for sure.

Quote

How much of the Holy Spirit is active in our lives these days?

Well I do belive that the Holy Spirit supernaturally can move upon people to bring about certain circumstances and events in our lives - even quite insignificant ones. We are not always aware of this. Scriptural examples include Simeon in the Temple when Mary and Joseph brought their offering, and the Holy Spirit moved on Simeon to get him in a certain place at a certain time in contact with Mary and Joseph and Jesus as a baby. I think its something we cannot really measure. Otherwise we're just down to co-incidences.

However, by reading the Word, the Holy Spirit can be the most active in that there is conviction of sin (Scripture is quite clear that conviction of sin is a principle activity of the Holy Spirit int he world) and our minds are renewed through reading the Word, and so we "live in the Spirit" because reading Scripture is absorbed into our hearts and minds

Quote

Do CDNs believe that each individual can be guided by the spirit?

I would say generally no - or many would be cautious of saying yes even if they thought each individual can be guided by the spirit - though a few CDNs I think would say definitely "yes". Bro. Don Styles put it in black and white in one of his editorials in "Christadelphian Tidings" and Bro Len Richardson has a fresh view on the work of the Holy Spirit in his book "Balancing the Book". When I get time, I will give you some quotes from them for you to think about.

Quote

What is meant when it is said 'the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been withdrawn?'

I would say this means that the miraculous gifts (total healings and raising from the dead, tongues with interpretation) which the Apostles displayed are no longer seen in evidence today - and even most "Spirit-filled" Christians would have to agree with this if you press them. However, this is not to say God cannot restore them again in the last days to whoever He wills at some point in the future.

The thing about the gifts being withdrawn: it is actually a historical fact. In the early church, they stopped. I think even most mainstream Christians would acknowledge this?

Quote

How much does the Holy Spirit interact with us?

FWIW, I personally believe that in the "indwelling" of the Spirit is through faith and reading of God's Word:

Here is a little study I put together:

Quote

INDWELLING: "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead DWELL IN YOU, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit THAT DWELLETH IN YOU" Rom 8:11

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God DWELLETH IN YOU" 1 Cor 3:16

GIVEN FOR LOVE: "And hope maketh not ashemd; because the love of God is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit which is GIVEN UNTO US" Rom 5:5

"and he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, BY THE SPIRIT WHICH HE HATH GIVEN US" 1 John 3:24

"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, BECAUSE HE HATH GIVEN US OF HIS SPIRIT". 1 John 4:13

"He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also GIVEN UNTO US HIS HOLY SPIRIT" 1 thess 4:8

SANCTIFICATION: "NOT by works of righteousness WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and RENEWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT" Titus 3:5

TEACHER: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of god. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Cor 6:11ff

Quote

Do we expect to see visions, hear voices or however God speaks to us?

I would say be cautious but I guess its not impossible. I find that God speaks to me best through my daily readings from His Word (which is Holy Spirit inspired from beginning to end: and of that we can be 100% certain). It's amazing how often my personal circumstances fit in with the readings, whether it be comfort or reproof or guidance.

Quote

Or is it all just us and the Bible in these latter days?

I personally would say its a little more than that, because the Holy Spirit convicts of sin often without people being aware of the Bible.

Also there are people who read the Bible avidly, but their lives are barren and bear little fruit. So I would say that in order for the Holy Spirit to"dwell" within us, we need hungry hearts to put into practice those things which manifest the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, self-control etc). If we have hungry hearts then we will be fertile ground for bearing fruit: for me 2 Peter 1 is the key - it is about being "diligent" (which is sacraficial actually: the Christian life is demanding and costly) - BUT, if we give "ALL DILIGENCE" to adding to our faith "virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control patience, and to patience, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love, for IF these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ".

The Holy Spirit never controls anyone.

(Ooops - long post, sorry).

Healings, miracles Gifts of the Spirit, raising the dead and casting out devil is a divine comission given by Jesus, and nowhere in the Bible does it say these things will stop. The true Church have been doing it throughtout Church history, andare still doing these things today

[Mercia2]

He-man, on Mar 13 2006, 01:29 PM, said:

Striving, on Mar 13 2006, 03:58 AM, said:

Tongues, healing, etc, I don't know.

How much of the Holy Spirit is active in our lives these days? Do CDNs believe that each individual can be guided by the spirit? What is meant when it is said 'the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been withdrawn?' How much does the Holy Spirit interact with us? Do we expect to see visions, hear voices or however God speaks to us?

Or is it all just us and the Bible in these latter days?

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

The apostles had the POWER of the Holy Spirit to Heal, Baptise, and overcome evil. We have the POWER of the Word of God, which is the Spirit of Truth and the ability to know the difference. We do not Heal or have those same powers to resurrect from the dead or to speak several (unknown tongues) languages of which we have had no schooling.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I agree with all that. The apostles had the POWER of healing witnessing gifts and we have the POWER of the Word of God. Yet that does not mean the Holy Spirit is no longer available, it means the effects or manifestions of witnessing gifts as part of the work of the Holy Spirit/God are no longer available but the Holy Spirit only to help us understand the Word of God when we ask for enlightenment. We still must do as the Bible says and "ask" for the Holy Spirit *(Luke 11:13). We must take our daily bread and study the Bible daily but we must not say we are enlightening ourselves but that God is leading us into all truth as we study His Word, so we glory in Him and not in man or ourselves. This is what this verse means, we must study His Word through the filter of the Holy Spirit (see bold), "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 3:17-18

It is talking about a problem with the Church that typifies these last days as thinking they are intellectually and theologically in need of nothing and yet to really understand the spiritual sense of the Word they need to study the Bible through the filter of the Holy Spirit, to buy off me gold refined in the fire. Knowledge refined through the Holy Spirit, by asking, by praying, by leaning on God for help and not man.

Let me put it another way. At the start of each lecture by my Christadelphian teacher called Colin, he would say, let us pray to God for wisdom and understanding as we study His Word. What a wonderful start to a Bible study. I prayed believing God would enlighten me as I studied. So how would God answer this prayer? Do we not believe the Holy Spirit is Gods active infliuence in the world (i.e the way prayers are answered), and does not God promise to enlighten us as study His Word as the virgins with lamps full of oil, the candlesticks of enlightenment God gave to the seven Churches and threatened to remove from the Church of Babylon in Rev 18?

Edited by Mercia2, 19 June 2009 - 09:35 PM.

[Mercia2]

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I've been out of CDN fellowship for 12 years now and have mixed quite a lot with "Spirit-filled" Christians during that time, and I must say that I don't know either: in fact, I would go furhter and say I am very sceptical. I am afraid I see very little or no evidence of REAL Spirit gifts: and even "Spirit-filled" Christians sometimes question it.

Dawn, we have to believe the Bible that the POWER is now the Word of God and Spirit WITNESSING gifts available to the apostles have ceased. As you know I have "asked" for the Holy Spirit (as instructed in Luke 11:13) and have told you all I had a profound spiritual experience at that moment which included a message I had to give which is why I am here and a vision regarding the papacy (we were Catholics), some 25 years ago now but have never cast out demons, spoken in tongues and believe that most if not all of those in organised religion falling over and pretending to be spirit filled are just that, delusional. Not necessarily because what they do looks silly but because it makes no sense they should be having self indulgent experiences akin to people in a nightclub taking Es when they should be studying their Bibles and helping the poor. I saw one "spirit filled" born again Christian (from an organised religious sect) claim it was her "God sugar" the other day. That is awful. What should fill us with joy is fellowship with other open minded Bible students as we explore the revelations in the spiritual sense of His Word.

Joel says in the last days children and old people will be given visions but not that they will ever have the WITNESSING power or gifts the apostles had. I am not sure if the phrase, "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" is an appropriate phrase? so I apologise if it is not, but that is what I believe the Christadelphians are prone to do in reacting in an extreme way to blatent errors in every regard, such as the fake manifestation of the Spirit in fake "spirit filled" churches resulting in us giving the impression that because spirit WITNESSING gifts have ceased the Holy Spirit has ceased completely and there is no point doing what the Bible specifically tells us to do in Luke 11:13, and elsewhere, for example, that because the traditional idea of the Satan as being the adversary of God, (not just the adversary of man) and a fallen angel or another god in opposition to the good God in this dualistic sense is totally wrong, we then deny that "the Satan" and "the devil" in Matthew 4 and Job and elsewhere is not a evil spirit being, if only that his evil serves some eventual purpose (and it would be more intellectually honest of us to try and work out what purpose and why God created him) as a sort of prosecuting attorney subservient to God as the Jews believe and having no power where God overrules (book of Job). Or when reacting to Trinitarianism by thinking we need to say Jesus did not have God literally within Him as if by saying He did in some way means the doctrine of the Trinity is true.

In anycase, when we have the Word of God, what sincere Christian really wants witnessing Spirit gifts today? Surely all we need from from the Holy Spriit/God today, as we study His Word, is faith that He will enlighten us and lead us into all truth if we "ask".

In short, how do we believe our prayers are answered? Especially if we pray for help and wisdom as we study His Word? If not by the supernatural power of God to answer prayers - the Holy Spirit.

Edited by Mercia2, 20 June 2009 - 07:26 AM.