359 replies to this topic

[Lebowski]

Adanac, on Mar 8 2006, 03:08 PM, said:

Lebowski, on Mar 8 2006, 02:39 PM, said:

There are many sexual practices in the Bible we don't follow,

There are? Like what?

prostitution, polygamy, sex with slaves, concubinage, marrying early

and some we do now, like masturbation, celibacy, birth control, sex during menstruation

[Colter]

Quote

Not not just because. God commands us things because they are good for us. If he says homosexual behaviour is wrong then we'd better believe it because it is bad for us.

Oh that's just wonderful, God makes people Gay but then tells them not to act on their gay-ness because it's bad for them..............and you still wonder why I'm not a Bible worshiper?????

Colter

[Adanac]

Lebowski, on Mar 8 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

Paul says,
Galatians 5
3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Which to my limited understanding, seems to indicate that if we apply the law, we must apply the whole law.

There is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of it. The spirit of it is eternal - it teaches us eternal principles to hold onto.

One of those principles is that sex is only for a man and his wife.

[Adanac]

Colter, on Mar 8 2006, 04:39 PM, said:

Quote

Not not just because. God commands us things because they are good for us. If he says homosexual behaviour is wrong then we'd better believe it because it is bad for us.

Oh that's just wonderful, God makes people Gay but then tells them not to act on their gay-ness because it's bad for them..............and you still wonder why I'm not a Bible worshiper?????

Colter

a) You don't even know whether God does make people homosexual. I very much doubt it personally.
b) God is always right. Live with it.

[Lebowski]

Adanac, on Mar 8 2006, 05:08 PM, said:

Lebowski, on Mar 8 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

Paul says,
Galatians 5
3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Which to my limited understanding, seems to indicate that if we apply the law, we must apply the whole law.

There is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of it. The spirit of it is eternal - it teaches us eternal principles to hold onto.

One of those principles is that sex is only for a man and his wife.

I love how everything is cut and dry, except when it doesn't fit in to your mindset. Then, things get murky, and enter the spirit world. Either we are under the whole law, or we are not, like Paul said.

[Adanac]

Why is it murky? It's a solid Scriptural principle - far from being murky.

Romans 1 emphasizes the literal nature of laws regarding sex and that they contain eternal principles.

[Colter]

Adanac, on Mar 9 2006, 01:09 AM, said:

Colter, on Mar 8 2006, 04:39 PM, said:

Quote

Not not just because. God commands us things because they are good for us. If he says homosexual behaviour is wrong then we'd better believe it because it is bad for us.

Oh that's just wonderful, God makes people Gay but then tells them not to act on their gay-ness because it's bad for them..............and you still wonder why I'm not a Bible worshiper?????

Colter

a) You don't even know whether God does make people homosexual. I very much doubt it personally.
b) God is always right. Live with it.

I figured that was at the root of your thinking.

We can see why universities feel the need to offer classes in this subject, there is a wooooooooooooorld of ignorance out there.

Edited by Colter, 09 March 2006 - 02:14 AM.

[Lebowski]

Adanac, on Mar 8 2006, 06:02 PM, said:

Why is it murky? It's a solid Scriptural principle - far from being murky.

Romans 1 emphasizes the literal nature of laws regarding sex and that they contain eternal principles.

Why is it murky?
Do you advocate execution for homosexuals as commanded by God? Do CD's teach their children to not masterbate? Do CD's teach their children that its ok for a man to have several wives? Several concubines? Is it part of CD philosophy that women can be sex slaves? That women are only incubators in the baby making process?

If no, why? It's solid scriptural principle.

Edited by Lebowski, 09 March 2006 - 02:28 AM.

[Tricia]

Lebowski, on Mar 8 2006, 08:18 PM, said:

Tricia, on Mar 8 2006, 09:47 AM, said:

Lebowski, on Mar 8 2006, 05:26 PM, said:

Tricia, on Mar 8 2006, 09:15 AM, said:

I don't know, but I was doing a search recently for something with "Christadelphian" in it, and I came across two young, former Christadelphian's websites. It seems like both of them forsook the Truth, one because he believed himself to be a homosexual, and the other one said that he is agnostic now, after attending university.

How is believing oneself to be homosexual forsaking the truth? Is it because homosexuality doesn't exist, or something else?

It does exist, but that doesn't mean that you have to act on it. I don't know if he did, but he said he was no longer accepted at his ecclesia.

There are several places in Scripture that clearly shows that God condemns homosexuality, so it's either choosing that or choosing God. You would be double minded if you thought you could have both.

Here is but one reference to it:

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13).

It's my personal opinion, that it's a mindset that can be changed through a lot of prayer and study of God's word and other sources. I think that it is an obsession, like many other obsessions, such as pornography, addictions to drugs, etc. You have to redirect your thoughts by doing something positive that will take the place of the addiction or obsession, because your brain gets stuck. I have several people in my family that have addictions, and I myself have obsessive compulsive tendencies, so I have done reading from several different sources to try to understand it more.

Perhaps homosexuality is a "mindset". Every gay person I know would disagree, but perhaps God puts that test in front of them for a reason. I'll suggest to my gay friends that they go bowling to get their mind off of being gay, and who knows? Bowling is a great opportunity for a small group to get together and talk, share and discuss the Gospel.

Are there any NT verses discussing this issue?

I found this article at bible.org that has some good information in it, and also Scripture. http://www.bible.org...sp?page_id=1302

If you can trace a problem area down to it's simple elements, it is always backed up by Scripture. Like others have been saying, there are physical consequences to what is essentially sin.

I have read from several reputable and also neutral, factual news sources, that corroborate that homosexual practice is unhealthy, leading to many mental, physical, and or other problems. There is a small group within the homosexual community that actually try to get AIDS from each other. Now is this a mentally healthy thought process? It's self destructive. Proof - http://www.narth.com/docs/chaser.html Read the Rolling Stone Article, too, if you don't believe it.

My mother, who is an RN nurse, has told me of all of the things that can happen to a practicing homosexual, or heterosexual people practicing sodomy and some of the things that she has actually seen, which have deformed a person permanently. I will not go into details.

Another informative website is http://www.narth.com/index.html Have a look - it has scientific studies and is very logical. The heading Medical Issues presents a good argument as to why homosexual practice is unhealthy, physically and mentally.

This is for Colter: You know, believe it or not, when I was a teenager and in my early twenties, I was Pro - Homosexual. I of course didn't grow up Christadelphian. But I thought what's the big deal? They should be allowed to do whatever they want without persecution. I have never done anything like that, but I have sinned in a sexual way, and have not only hurt myself, but others that I love. Why did I do it? Selfishness. Now, I am paying that price. I am alone, and likely will be for the rest of my life. It has made me realize that God is the only good One. Who are we to question His wisdom? His ways are not our ways, and we can never understand completely His higher and better thoughts. If we see something that to us looks unjust, we need to hearken back to this fact, and accept it with a humble attitude, even if doesn't make sense to us at the time. If you observe a toddler, you know how simple their thought process is, and they are just learning about this amazing new world of ours that God has made, through their senses, often touching, smelling, putting things into their mouths to see how it tastes, studying it by staring at it. Well, I think that is how God sees us, as children that need guidance, because we oftentimes don't understand or know what is best for us. That is why He has given us the Bible, to teach us!

Now homosexuals and their supporters, they are the ones who are persecuting us, because we disagree, and calling us homophobic. That means fear of - I do not fear them, I just disagree with their sexual lifestyle. Are we not allowed to have our own opinions and beliefs anymore? If we see someone doing something that will harm themselves, do we not try to persuade them not to do it? Of course there is a wrong way to do this and a right way. By being mean and insulting someone, you will never get their ear. But by calm, careful, patient, and respectful reasoning and logic, someone might be persuaded. It doesn't always happen, but with persistance and a kind attitude, sometimes a person will be able to change.

Btw, there has been a study done that in general, younger adults have a more politically liberal attitude and belief system, and then when they start having families and getting older, they tend to become more conservative, and they also start attending church more, esp. if they have children. That's just in general, it doesn't mean that everyone fits into this pattern. I thought this was interesting.

Edited by Tricia, 09 March 2006 - 05:07 AM.

[Tricia]

Adanac, on Mar 9 2006, 01:08 AM, said:

Lebowski, on Mar 8 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

Paul says,
Galatians 5
3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Which to my limited understanding, seems to indicate that if we apply the law, we must apply the whole law.

There is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of it. The spirit of it is eternal - it teaches us eternal principles to hold onto.

One of those principles is that sex is only for a man and his wife.

I remember seeing something somewhere that made me laugh, but it's true.

It went something like this ... God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!

[Lebowski]

Tricia, on Mar 8 2006, 07:53 PM, said:

Lebowski, on Mar 8 2006, 08:18 PM, said:

Tricia, on Mar 8 2006, 09:47 AM, said:

Lebowski, on Mar 8 2006, 05:26 PM, said:

Tricia, on Mar 8 2006, 09:15 AM, said:

I don't know, but I was doing a search recently for something with "Christadelphian" in it, and I came across two young, former Christadelphian's websites. It seems like both of them forsook the Truth, one because he believed himself to be a homosexual, and the other one said that he is agnostic now, after attending university.

How is believing oneself to be homosexual forsaking the truth? Is it because homosexuality doesn't exist, or something else?

It does exist, but that doesn't mean that you have to act on it. I don't know if he did, but he said he was no longer accepted at his ecclesia.

There are several places in Scripture that clearly shows that God condemns homosexuality, so it's either choosing that or choosing God. You would be double minded if you thought you could have both.

Here is but one reference to it:

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13).

It's my personal opinion, that it's a mindset that can be changed through a lot of prayer and study of God's word and other sources. I think that it is an obsession, like many other obsessions, such as pornography, addictions to drugs, etc. You have to redirect your thoughts by doing something positive that will take the place of the addiction or obsession, because your brain gets stuck. I have several people in my family that have addictions, and I myself have obsessive compulsive tendencies, so I have done reading from several different sources to try to understand it more.

Perhaps homosexuality is a "mindset". Every gay person I know would disagree, but perhaps God puts that test in front of them for a reason. I'll suggest to my gay friends that they go bowling to get their mind off of being gay, and who knows? Bowling is a great opportunity for a small group to get together and talk, share and discuss the Gospel.

Are there any NT verses discussing this issue?

I found this article at bible.org that has some good information in it, and also Scripture. http://www.bible.org...sp?page_id=1302

If you can trace a problem area down to it's simple elements, it is always backed up by Scripture. Like others have been saying, there are physical consequences to what is essentially sin.

I have read from several reputable and also neutral, factual news sources, that corroborate that homosexual practice is unhealthy, leading to many mental, physical, and or other problems. There is a small group within the homosexual community that actually try to get AIDS from each other. Now is this a mentally healthy thought process? It's self destructive.

My mother, who is an RN nurse, has told me of all of the things that can happen to a practicing homosexual, or heterosexual people practicing sodomy and some of the things that she has actually seen, which have deformed a person permanently. I will not go into details.

Another informative website is http://www.narth.com/index.html Have a look - it has scientific studies and is very logical. The heading Medical Issues presents a good argument as to why homosexual practice is unhealthy, physically and mentally.

This is for Colter: You know, believe it or not, when I was a teenager and in my early twenties, I was Pro - Homosexual. I of course didn't grow up Christadelphian. But I thought what's the big deal? They should be allowed to do whatever they want without persecution. I have never done anything like that, but I have sinned in a sexual way, and have not only hurt myself, but others that I love. Why did I do it? Selfishness. Now, I am paying that price. I am alone, and likely will be for the rest of my life. It has made me realize that God is the only good One. Who are we to question His wisdom? His ways are not our ways, and we can never understand completely His higher and better thoughts. If we see something that to us looks unjust, we need to hearken back to this fact, and accept it with a humble attitude, even if doesn't make sense to us at the time. If you observe a toddler, you know how simple their thought process is, and they are just learning about this amazing new world of ours that God has made, through their senses, often touching, smelling, putting things into their mouths to see how it tastes, studying it by staring at it. Well, I think that is how God sees us, as children that need guidance, because we oftentimes don't understand or know what is best for us. That is why He has given us the Bible, to teach us!

Now homosexuals and their supporters, they are the ones who are persecuting us, because we disagree, and calling us homophobic. That means fear of - I do not fear them, I just disagree with their sexual lifestyle. Are we not allowed to have our own opinions and beliefs anymore? If we see someone doing something that will harm themselves, do we not try to persuade them not to do it? Of course there is a wrong way to do this and a right way. By being mean and insulting someone, you will never get their ear. But by calm, careful, patient, and respectful reasoning and logic, someone might be persuaded. It doesn't always happen, but with persistance and a kind attitude, sometimes a person will be able to change.

Btw, there has been a study done that in general, younger adults have a more politically liberal attitude and belief system, and then when they start having families and getting older, they tend to become more conservative, and they also start attending church more, esp. if they have children. That's just in general, it doesn't mean that everyone fits into this pattern. I thought this was interesting.

Thanks for the link. I especially like the line: "Every Jew knew that homosexuality was an abomination, a disgusting practice to be loathed, hated."
There is no doubt the Bible is against homosexuality. I am arguing, however, that the if we take the Bible seriously we must take the Bible seriously in its entirety. Take nudity for example. According to the Bible, it is a shameful sin.
Isaih 47
3: Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.
Its not only embarrassing, its a cursed sin, as Gen 9 points out:
20: And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22: And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23: And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
24: And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25: And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26: And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27: God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Ouch. Do we look at nakedness in the same way today? sure, we aren't ready to be all European and hang out (literally) at the nude beach...but what about the locker rooms or even at home....are we to consider those as a cursed sin?

How about levirate marriage, where if no heir is born to a man that dies, his brothers take turns trying to produce one. Jesus himself left this practice uncondemned in Mark 12
20: Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
21: And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
22: And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
23: In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24: And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25: For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26: And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27: He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Why is this not practiced today, yet the rules for homosexuality are strictly enforced?????????

[Lebowski]

Tricia, on Mar 8 2006, 07:59 PM, said:

Adanac, on Mar 9 2006, 01:08 AM, said:

Lebowski, on Mar 8 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

Paul says,
Galatians 5
3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Which to my limited understanding, seems to indicate that if we apply the law, we must apply the whole law.

There is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of it. The spirit of it is eternal - it teaches us eternal principles to hold onto.

One of those principles is that sex is only for a man and his wife.

I remember seeing something somewhere that made me laugh, but it's true.

It went something like this ... God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!

It may be laughable to you, but many people have turned away from Jesus because of this issue. That's not funny.

[Tricia]

Quote

Thanks for the link. I especially like the line: "Every Jew knew that homosexuality was an abomination, a disgusting practice to be loathed, hated."
There is no doubt the Bible is against homosexuality. I am arguing, however, that the if we take the Bible seriously we must take the Bible seriously in its entirety. Take nudity for example. According to the Bible, it is a shameful sin.
Isaih 47
3: Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.
Its not only embarrassing, its a cursed sin, as Gen 9 points out:
20: And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22: And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23: And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
24: And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25: And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26: And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27: God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Ouch. Do we look at nakedness in the same way today? sure, we aren't ready to be all European and hang out (literally) at the nude beach...but what about the locker rooms or even at home....are we to consider those as a cursed sin?

How about levirate marriage, where if no heir is born to a man that dies, his brothers take turns trying to produce one. Jesus himself left this practice uncondemned in Mark 12
20: Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
21: And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
22: And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
23: In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24: And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25: For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26: And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27: He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Why is this not practiced today, yet the rules for homosexuality are strictly enforced?????????

Your welcome! I'm going to have to think about your questions and get back to you, because I'm not real sure. Maybe someone else can help me out by answering?

[Tricia]

Lebowski, on Mar 9 2006, 05:18 AM, said:

Tricia, on Mar 8 2006, 07:59 PM, said:

Adanac, on Mar 9 2006, 01:08 AM, said:

Lebowski, on Mar 8 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

Paul says,
Galatians 5
3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Which to my limited understanding, seems to indicate that if we apply the law, we must apply the whole law.

There is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of it. The spirit of it is eternal - it teaches us eternal principles to hold onto.

One of those principles is that sex is only for a man and his wife.

I remember seeing something somewhere that made me laugh, but it's true.

It went something like this ... God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!

It may be laughable to you, but many people have turned away from Jesus because of this issue. That's not funny.

My apologies, you're right! It didn't occur to me to think about it that way.

It is indeed a sad thing, but it seems to me that if a need is felt strongly enough, there is a necessity to do something to meet that need. If they felt really strongly about pleasing God above self when there happens to be a question between the two, (because they love Him so much!) which is what this life is really all about in the end anyway, they would find a way, and not give up. It's a constant battle, but if you don't have God, life is just empty. It is for me, anyway. There have been times when I feel like just giving up trying to please Him, because life is hard, and I get depressed, but I always come back around. I guess when I feel frustrated, I then am naturally inclined to be contentious and rebellious, but that is when I most need Him, because no one else is going to help me like He can.

[Colter]

Quote

This is for Colter: You know, believe it or not, when I was a teenager and in my early twenties, I was Pro - Homosexual. I of course didn't grow up Christadelphian. But I thought what's the big deal? They should be allowed to do whatever they want without persecution. I have never done anything like that, but I have sinned in a sexual way, and have not only hurt myself, but others that I love. Why did I do it? Selfishness. Now, I am paying that price. I am alone, and likely will be for the rest of my life. It has made me realize that God is the only good One. Who are we to question His wisdom? His ways are not our ways, and we can never understand completely His higher and better thoughts. If we see something that to us looks unjust, we need to hearken back to this fact, and accept it with a humble attitude, even if doesn't make sense to us at the time. If you observe a toddler, you know how simple their thought process is, and they are just learning about this amazing new world of ours that God has made, through their senses, often touching, smelling, putting things into their mouths to see how it tastes, studying it by staring at it. Well, I think that is how God sees us, as children that need guidance, because we oftentimes don't understand or know what is best for us. That is why He has given us the Bible, to teach us!

Now homosexuals and their supporters, they are the ones who are persecuting us, because we disagree, and calling us homophobic. That means fear of - I do not fear them, I just disagree with their sexual lifestyle. Are we not allowed to have our own opinions and beliefs anymore? If we see someone doing something that will harm themselves, do we not try to persuade them not to do it? Of course there is a wrong way to do this and a right way. By being mean and insulting someone, you will never get their ear. But by calm, careful, patient, and respectful reasoning and logic, someone might be persuaded. It doesn't always happen, but with persistance and a kind attitude, sometimes a person will be able to change.

Btw, there has been a study done that in general, younger adults have a more politically liberal attitude and belief system, and then when they start having families and getting older, they tend to become more conservative, and they also start attending church more, esp. if they have children. That's just in general, it doesn't mean that everyone fits into this pattern. I thought this was interesting.

Tricia,

Jesus was a radical scocial liberal and was rejected, persecuted and murdered by OT religionist for that very reason. No matter how Bible purist want to candy coat history as if the rejection of the love of Jesus was "supposed to happen" it was a horific demonstration of human ignorance and intolerance.

Here, I will quote everything that Jesus said about homosexuality:

Quote

.

Being a gay person is far more than a sex act.

Thank you for shearing some of your personal struggles. I would not be at all surprised if one day you find love that will look beyond the consequences of your past mistakes.

Colter

Edited by Colter, 09 March 2006 - 12:04 PM.

[Dianne]

Colter, on Mar 9 2006, 08:39 AM, said:

Quote

Not not just because. God commands us things because they are good for us. If he says homosexual behaviour is wrong then we'd better believe it because it is bad for us.

Oh that's just wonderful, God makes people Gay but then tells them not to act on their gay-ness because it's bad for them..............and you still wonder why I'm not a Bible worshiper?????

Colter

Well I can deduce from that statement that you are not a Bible worshipper because you want to do as you please to please yourself whereas people who worship God would rather please God by adhering to his commandments.

Anyhow your entire argument is based on what's unfair to Colter's way of thinking. Remember you are not God.

Besides, God didn't make people gay.

[Dianne]

Colter, on Mar 9 2006, 10:14 AM, said:

I figured that was at the root of your thinking.

What's wrong with believing that God is always right?
What's wrong with doubting that God created people homosexuals?

Quote

We can see why universities feel the need to offer classes in this subject, there is a wooooooooooooorld of ignorance out there.

Well, unfortunately the universities are capable of making them even more ignorant too.

Edited by Dianne, 09 March 2006 - 02:01 PM.

[Martyn]

One or two things.

First, gender studies and gender theory has been big business in university circles for some years now. Since the 1980s, other subsets of this have developed, of which queer theory (or lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual theory) is one. Some may choose to follow this line of study because of a genuine academic interest; others because of a conviction that these ideas need to be investigated, discussed and analysed; others because these issues are 'close to home' and they wish to buy into what is being written. None of these are my bag, but if people want to study it, fair enough. That's academia for you.

Second. This idea that homosexual men and women are being turned away from the gospel because of the churches' standpoint is deeply sad. In reading this thread I suspect several people have launched into 'fire opening salvo' mode without thinking that this is a very real issue for very real people. Lebowski, I imagine this has put your back up, just as it would mine. We tend to forget the need for the 'soft answer' approach because this discussion resurfaces on the forum every couple of months or so.

The Bible condemns homosexual acts. This may be a problem for people who don't like the idea of condemning others, but God does condemn homosexual acts. (This post isn't going to provide the evidence, because others have already done so.) But the Bible condemns other things too, and many of those who object to God's hatred of homosexuality are happy to read that He condemns, for example, murder or adultery. Why? Because we're human, arbitrary, and we draw our own line in the sand based on what we see around us. But in the Bible, God sets out His principles for men and women to order their lives, and if we want to buy into part of it, we have to buy into all of it.

What Christadelphians need to be able to see (particular appeal here to intractable older generations and over-zealous foot-in-mouth younger generations) is that there are men and women caught in the crossfire who need to be carefully guided. Someone who asks, 'What kind of god would say that?', and heads for the hills, is unlikely to be moved by anything. But someone who genuinely wants to deal with whatever sexual urges they may feel, set up against the Biblical standard, must be able to find help from us.

This doesn't mean that we say, 'Become straight and get married', because that's absurd. It's just as absurd as asking a straight person to become gay. But it is entirely acceptable for someone with homosexual tendencies to lead a celibate life of discipleship as it is for a straight person. In fact, there are plenty of people out there doing just that, and we need to be there for them.

However, the one thing we are not permitted to do is to say that God tolerates homosexual practice. He does not.

[Colter]

Dianne, on Mar 9 2006, 12:14 PM, said:

Colter, on Mar 9 2006, 08:39 AM, said:

Quote

Not not just because. God commands us things because they are good for us. If he says homosexual behaviour is wrong then we'd better believe it because it is bad for us.

Oh that's just wonderful, God makes people Gay but then tells them not to act on their gay-ness because it's bad for them..............and you still wonder why I'm not a Bible worshiper?????

Colter

Well I can deduce from that statement that you are not a Bible worshipper because you want to do as you please to please yourself whereas people who worship God would rather please God by adhering to his commandments.

Anyhow your entire argument is based on what's unfair to Colter's way of thinking. Remember you are not God.

Besides, God didn't make people gay.

Jesus commanded to love as he loved and that is a commandment that I abide by, an ideal that I aspire to.

Christianity has apparently made amendments to that directive.

[Colter]

Martyn, on Mar 9 2006, 12:55 PM, said:

One or two things.

First, gender studies and gender theory has been big business in university circles for some years now. Since the 1980s, other subsets of this have developed, of which queer theory (or lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual theory) is one. Some may choose to follow this line of study because of a genuine academic interest; others because of a conviction that these ideas need to be investigated, discussed and analysed; others because these issues are 'close to home' and they wish to buy into what is being written. None of these are my bag, but if people want to study it, fair enough. That's academia for you.

Second. This idea that homosexual men and women are being turned away from the gospel because of the churches' standpoint is deeply sad. In reading this thread I suspect several people have launched into 'fire opening salvo' mode without thinking that this is a very real issue for very real people. Lebowski, I imagine this has put your back up, just as it would mine. We tend to forget the need for the 'soft answer' approach because this discussion resurfaces on the forum every couple of months or so.

The Bible condemns homosexual acts. This may be a problem for people who don't like the idea of condemning others, but God does condemn homosexual acts. (This post isn't going to provide the evidence, because others have already done so.) But the Bible condemns other things too, and many of those who object to God's hatred of homosexuality are happy to read that He condemns, for example, murder or adultery. Why? Because we're human, arbitrary, and we draw our own line in the sand based on what we see around us. But in the Bible, God sets out His principles for men and women to order their lives, and if we want to buy into part of it, we have to buy into all of it.

What Christadelphians need to be able to see (particular appeal here to intractable older generations and over-zealous foot-in-mouth younger generations) is that there are men and women caught in the crossfire who need to be carefully guided. Someone who asks, 'What kind of god would say that?', and heads for the hills, is unlikely to be moved by anything. But someone who genuinely wants to deal with whatever sexual urges they may feel, set up against the Biblical standard, must be able to find help from us.

This doesn't mean that we say, 'Become straight and get married', because that's absurd. It's just as absurd as asking a straight person to become gay. But it is entirely acceptable for someone with homosexual tendencies to lead a celibate life of discipleship as it is for a straight person. In fact, there are plenty of people out there doing just that, and we need to be there for them.

However, the one thing we are not permitted to do is to say that God tolerates homosexual practice. He does not.

Nice level headed post.

[Natajack]

Colter, I'd be very interested to hear your reply to Martyn's post.

edit. oops, there it is! well done for agreeing, I did too! But you see, I think Dianne and Martyn are in general/total agreement, they just put it differently. I do think we have to be careful, though, to judge things like this in light of what the Bible says, than what we may think or want to think about the subject.

One thing to mention: if practising homosexuality is a sin, then its a mindset, and not something someone is born with. If it couldn't be conquered, it wouldn't be a sin. Does that make sense?

Personally, I go with the view that homosexuality itself results from a depraved mental state, in a similar way to bestiality, paedophilia, etc., that its subversive and sinful. Personally, I don't think people are born homosexual, just as they are not born paedophiles. But, that said, we need to help people, not shun them. But if someone wants to carry on doing something and doesn't want to think that what they're doing is wrong, they'll regard people who say such things are wrong/sinful as homophobic, intolerant, ostriches, etc.

It's easily done, that kind of response. But the bottom line is what it says in Romans ch. 1.

Edited by Natajack, 09 March 2006 - 01:28 PM.

[Esther]

I agree with Natajack; I don't think God would condemn someone for something it is impossible for them to overcome. Therefore, I don't think homosexuals are born that way.

I Corinthians 10:13 "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

To me, homosexuality is just like any other sin--it comes from dwelling on something you shouldn't be dwelling on. And, just like any other sin, it can be overcome.

[Dianne]

Colter, on Mar 9 2006, 09:12 PM, said:

Jesus commanded to love as he loved and that is a commandment that I abide by, an ideal that I aspire to.

Christianity has apparently made amendments to that directive.

I do love all people including Homosexuals. One of my best friends is gay (non-Christadelphian) but that doesn't mean I love what he does. If I love my friend, does that mean I have to love what he does, too?

I think perhaps you should separate the act from the person.

Also, I wonder what you think it means when Jesus commanded us to love?

Do you think the love Jesus showed means that you just accept things and life and all is good in the world? Love is more than that. It can be harsh and brutal sometimes. It's not all about 'wine and roses'. I'm sure when Jesus commanded us to love, it also included giving rebukes to those who are doing wrong or headed down the wrong path,etc.

Edited by Dianne, 09 March 2006 - 01:59 PM.

[Jeremy]

Colter, on Mar 9 2006, 12:04 PM, said:

Here, I will quote everything that Jesus said about homosexuality:

Quote

.

We might get things more in context if we quote everything Jesus says about marriage and sex outside of it.

[Colter]

Natajack, on Mar 9 2006, 01:21 PM, said:

Colter, I'd be very interested to hear your reply to Martyn's post.

edit. oops, there it is! well done for agreeing, I did too! But you see, I think Dianne and Martyn are in general/total agreement, they just put it differently. I do think we have to be careful, though, to judge things like this in light of what the Bible says, than what we may think or want to think about the subject.

One thing to mention: if practising homosexuality is a sin, then its a mindset, and not something someone is born with. If it couldn't be conquered, it wouldn't be a sin. Does that make sense?

Personally, I go with the view that homosexuality itself results from a depraved mental state, in a similar way to bestiality, paedophilia, etc., that its subversive and sinful. Personally, I don't think people are born homosexual, just as they are not born paedophiles. But, that said, we need to help people, not shun them. But if someone wants to carry on doing something and doesn't want to think that what they're doing is wrong, they'll regard people who say such things are wrong/sinful as homophobic, intolerant, ostriches, etc.

It's easily done, that kind of response. But the bottom line is what it says in Romans ch. 1.

Hello Nat,
I will tell you exactly what I have concluded up until this point in my spiritual life about homosexuality. I was at one time more anti-gay like it was a disease that someone caught, then a lifestyle someone chooses now I'm convinced that people are born Gay and may or may not come to terms with it in latter life.

* I'm inclined to think that if there is a disease centered around homosexuality is is the spiritual disease of heterosexual rejection of gays.

* I don't think the problem is homosexuality I think it's us.

* I have first hand experience with a gay sister who really struggled with being accepted. She didn't really come out until after a scuicide attempt after which she was forced to reveal it to the family. We sort of knew it before she did.

* I have dear friends that are gay, I can't imagine them any other way.

* As far as I can tell Homophobic man wrote the bible with no input from Gays or women for that matter.

There are many things that I may be inclined to do but can understand that God does not want me to indulge and so I try not to. The shallow accusation that people have made towards me on many occasions here at BTDF that I dance to my own tune doesn't deserve a response.

[Colter]

Jeremy, on Mar 9 2006, 01:54 PM, said:

Colter, on Mar 9 2006, 12:04 PM, said:

Here, I will quote everything that Jesus said about homosexuality:

Quote

.

We might get things more in context if we quote everything Jesus says about marriage and sex outside of it.

A valid point, Jesus didn't say allot of things about morality in that social mores change over the ages.

Homoseuallity is not a "fad," on a percentage basis there have always been roughly 8% in all cultures.

[Martyn]

Colter, on Mar 9 2006, 02:01 PM, said:

* As far as I can tell Homophobic man wrote the bible with no input from Gays or women for that matter.

<lifts up cat, places amongst pigeons>

The New Testament liberated women. It gave them a voice they previously lacked.

Edited by Martyn, 09 March 2006 - 02:18 PM.

[Colter]

Dianne, on Mar 9 2006, 01:44 PM, said:

Colter, on Mar 9 2006, 09:12 PM, said:

Jesus commanded to love as he loved and that is a commandment that I abide by, an ideal that I aspire to.

Christianity has apparently made amendments to that directive.

I do love all people including Homosexuals. One of my best friends is gay (non-Christadelphian) but that doesn't mean I love what he does. If I love my friend, does that mean I have to love what he does, too?

I think perhaps you should separate the act from the person.

Also, I wonder what you think it means when Jesus commanded us to love?

Do you think the love Jesus showed means that you just accept things and life and all is good in the world? Love is more than that. It can be harsh and brutal sometimes. It's not all about 'wine and roses'. I'm sure when Jesus commanded us to love, it also included giving rebukes to those who are doing wrong or headed down the wrong path,etc.

Dianne, does your Gay friend have to tolerate your sex life?

I do feel very unsettled about Gay adoption. My kids were in a day care one time in which there was a young African American boy adopted by two white moms. I felt terrible for the young boy who had been in two other foster families that did not work out. The young boy is now 10, I saw them at the movies just the other day and well............................they seem to be oK. I just don't know what to think about that.

[Colter]

Martyn, on Mar 9 2006, 02:16 PM, said:

Colter, on Mar 9 2006, 02:01 PM, said:

* As far as I can tell Homophobic man wrote the bible with no input from Gays or women for that matter.

<lifts up cat, places amongst pigeons>

The New Testament liberated women. It gave them a voice they previously lacked.

I don't know what the cats and pigions means...it sounds funny?

Jesus liberated women...................the NT reduces them back a bit...................and the church insulted them all over again.

Is it better to have gay celibate priest as opposed heterosexual female leaders with a feminine perspective?

[Jeremy]

Colter, on Mar 9 2006, 02:57 PM, said:

I don't know what the cats and pigions means...it sounds funny?

LOL. Two nations divided by a common langauge. "To set the cat amongst the pigeons" means to risk causing a big upset.

Quote

Is it better to have gay celibate priest as opposed heterosexual female leaders with a feminine perspective?

It's better to have no priests. Christians are all priests, and they have the only High Priest they'll ever need.