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God is a Satan?


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#1 composer

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 06:42 AM

The most enlightening of all the passages in the OT is coming up now, for it tells us that God was satan. If satan was the arch enemy, the devil, this would be difficult to understand, but as we now know that satan is just a Hebrew word meaning an adversary / opposer, we can easily understand what follows) -


1 Chronicles 21:1 reads.. And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

There is a parallel passage to this, another account of the same incident recorded in 2 Samuel 24:1

This reads "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah". So that the satan that provoked Israel in 1 Chronicles is called the LORD in 2 Samuel.

If you apply this principle throughout the Bible many of your problems will vanish but isn’t it easy to see now why the Lord Jesus should call the Apostle Peter satan when he told Jesus there was no need for him to die. He was getting in the way of his Master’s mission and so was an adversary. Read for yourself Matthew 16 v 21 to 23 and see how you can apply the idea of an adversary rather than an evil angel.

We must conclude then that there can be both good and evil satans. For if I prevent you from doing something wrong, I come between you and the wrong you want to do. I am therefore your adversary in this thing to prevent you from doing wrong. I am therefore a good satan. But if you want to do some good thing which I do not want you do; if I get between you and that good thing, I become a bad or evil satan. Sometimes we get the devil and satan mentioned in the same verse. That is because the devil is always evil and when the devil stands in the way of good he becomes and evil adversary or satan.

Let us look now then at the phrase The devil. This is really strange because all 38 references to the devil are in the NT. There are none at all in the OT. If the devil is such an arch enemy of God and man, why is there no mention of him in the OT? The answer is that the devil is a translation of the Greek word Diabolos

This is translated in the AV. - devil 35, false accuser 2, slanderer 1: 38

The meaning is given as

1) prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely

1a) a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,

2) metaphor. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him.

In this dictionary there follows the compiler’s own version which reads like this.

"Satan the prince of the demons, the author of evil, persecuting good men, estranging mankind from God and enticing them to sin, afflicting them with diseases by means of demons who take possession of their bodies at his bidding."

There are two very obvious mistakes with this exposition of the devil. One is that the writer is mixing up the word for the devil with a different word for the devils which people thought brought diseases. (composer writes- daimonion) The second point is that the writer says Satan is the author of evil. Of course he thinks satan and the devil are one and the same person but from our studies we know differently. But let us ask; Is the devil the author of evil?

The Bible tells us he is not. We shall go to the prophet Isaiah now and read the words of God.

Isaiah 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:5 - 7)

That surely is plain enough for any one. God claims to send peace and war, prosperity and adversity, as in Amos 3:6 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

God claims that HE is the author of evil; not the devil or satan. He does not claim to be the author of sin but of evil.

When did God create evil then? The word is found in the first book of the Bible and is associated with Adam and Eve’s disobedience, which was sin.

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

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#2 Socinian

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 06:54 AM

The evangelicals try to get around this by pointing out that the Hebrew word for “evil” is used to mean “calamity” in an equal amount of times as it is used to mean “evil”. They just retranslate it as “calamity” (as in judgment on sinners) in those passages.

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#3 Flappie

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 06:59 AM

So that the satan that provoked Israel in 1 Chronicles is called the LORD in 2 Samuel.


Erm, I wouldn't go that far if I were you, they're not the same. More likely that God was angry with Israel, so made an enemy nation (the satan) stand against Israel, so David would count his troops.
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#4 Adanac

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 07:04 AM

Depends on the "he" is in Samuel.

Samuel - ...the anger of the LORD was kindled... he moved David
Chronicles - Satan stood up... and provoked

"moved" and "provoked" are the same Hebrew word. Looks pretty parallel.
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#5 Socinian

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 07:04 AM

"Calamity" is also the opposite of "peace".

Here are some examples of how evangelicals have changed it:
http://utccc.sa.utor...l&Suffering.doc

http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-7.htm
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things. (WEB)

http://bible.cc/amos/3-6.htm
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done 'it'? (YLT)

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things (NKJV).

Others that Google can find:
http://www.google.co...reate calamity"
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#6 Fortigurn

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 08:20 AM

Depends on the "he" is in Samuel.

Samuel - ...the anger of the LORD was kindled... he moved David
Chronicles - Satan stood up... and provoked

"moved" and "provoked" are the same Hebrew word. Looks pretty parallel.


It's not the word translated 'moved' and 'provoked' which is the issue here. The issue is that God is said to provoke David, whereas the satan is said to provoke Israel.
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#7 He-man

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 02:34 PM

Depends on the "he" is in Samuel.

Samuel - ...the anger of the LORD was kindled... he moved David
Chronicles - Satan stood up... and provoked

"moved" and "provoked" are the same Hebrew word. Looks pretty parallel.


It's not the word translated 'moved' and 'provoked' which is the issue here. The issue is that God is said to provoke David, whereas the satan is said to provoke Israel.

Num. 22:22 :--"And God's anger was kindled because he (Balaam) went; and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary (SATAN) against him."
It next occurs in the same chapter, verse 32 :--
"And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine :thank: these three times? Behold, I went out to withstand (marg., to be AN ADVERSARY--a Satan to) thee."

Let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversary (SATAN) to us" (I Sam. 29:4).
"And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries (SATANS) unto me?" (II Sam. 19:22).

"And he was an adversary (SATAN) to Israel all the days of Solomon" (I Kings 11:23, 25).
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#8 Flappie

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 02:35 PM

Heman, your point would be...?
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#9 Fortigurn

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 03:43 PM

I think he's proving mine actually.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#10 Asyncritus

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 05:34 PM


So that the satan that provoked Israel in 1 Chronicles is called the LORD in 2 Samuel.


Erm, I wouldn't go that far if I were you, they're not the same. More likely that God was angry with Israel, so made an enemy nation (the satan) stand against Israel, so David would count his troops.


That's an excellent idea, Flappie.
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#11 InChristAlways

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 05:55 PM

If you apply this principle throughout the Bible many of your problems will vanish but isn’t it easy to see now why the Lord Jesus should call the Apostle Peter satan when he told Jesus there was no need for him to die. He was getting in the way of his Master’s mission and so was an adversary. Read for yourself Matthew 16 v 21 to 23 and see how you can apply the idea of an adversary rather than an evil angel.

We must conclude then that there can be both good and evil satans. For if I prevent you from doing something wrong, I come between you and the wrong you want to do. I am therefore your adversary in this thing to prevent you from doing wrong. I am therefore a good satan. But if you want to do some good thing which I do not want you do; if I get between you and that good thing, I become a bad or evil satan. Sometimes we get the devil and satan mentioned in the same verse. That is because the devil is always evil and when the devil stands in the way of good he becomes and evil adversary or satan.

Hi Composer. Interesting. It shows those 2 in revelation 20, Satan being released but the Devil being thrown into the "fire". I have my own "view" of this but that is another topic. Any thoughts on that?

Reve 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison....... 10 The Devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire

Erm, I wouldn't go that far if I were you, they're not the same. More likely that God was angry with Israel, so made an enemy nation (the satan) stand against Israel, so David would count his troops.

I just found this thread and it is actually helping me with revelation. Very interesting post Composer and I will have to look at your thoughts more and wonder how the jewish religion would view it in light of the OT prophecies.

God also appears to be "raising" up these adversaries against OC Israel and Judah thus fulfilling Ezekiel 37?

These "kings" have received no kingdom as yet and the only other ones I can think of that were "without a kingdom" was the Nation of Israel [who God put away in the OT] and the "gentiles". Thoughts?

Revelation 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Ezekiel 37:22 "and I will make them one Nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one King shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be Two Nations, nor shall they ever be divided into Two Kingdoms again.

Edited by InChristAlways, 22 January 2006 - 06:07 PM.

Luke 21:22 "For these are the DAYS of VENGEANCE, that ALL THINGS which are WRITTEN may be FULFILLED1 Peter 4:7 But the End of ALL THINGS is NIGH at Hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.!

#12 Colter

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 07:15 PM

In the days of Samuel the children of Abraham believed that God created both good and evil.

"And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, so much so that he moved David against them, saying, go number Israel and Judah"

From Samuel to Isaiah the revelation of Gods loving nature improves as mankind evolves.

When a later more enlightened author narrated these same events he did not dare blame God for this evil.

"And Satan stood up against Israel and provoked David to number Israel".

The concept of God as a loving father is finally proven in the life of Jesus Christ.

Edited by Colter, 22 January 2006 - 07:16 PM.

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#13 Guido

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 07:36 PM



So that the satan that provoked Israel in 1 Chronicles is called the LORD in 2 Samuel.


Erm, I wouldn't go that far if I were you, they're not the same. More likely that God was angry with Israel, so made an enemy nation (the satan) stand against Israel, so David would count his troops.


That's an excellent idea, Flappie.

I think so too. I never did like the God=Satan theory.

Edited by Guido, 22 January 2006 - 07:39 PM.


#14 Flappie

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 07:40 PM

If you don't believe God creates evil, the truth is not in you.
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#15 Colter

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 10:52 PM

If you don't believe God creates evil, the truth is not in you.


The life of Jesus says your wrong. :thank:
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#16 Flappie

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 11:01 PM


If you don't believe God creates evil, the truth is not in you.


The life of Jesus says your wrong. :thank:


Go look up Isaiah 45:7. God is the creator of all things, not just half of them.
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#17 Colter

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 01:45 PM

7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

That would be the life of Isaiah, not the life of Jesus.
The spiritual content of the Bible improves as mans ability to understand "truth" evolves and as Gods revelations continue.

Such a dim view of God lead to the rejection of Christ and the prophets before him. That is the problem with calling the Bible the word of God. It is the word of man searching for an understanding of God. To extrapolate human references to God such as in Isaiah is to "stop the movie" and look at one frame of thought in a history of conceptual development.

This naturally occurring phenomenon lead to such exchanges with the son of God as this:

Jesus and Beelzebub
22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

They were calling good evil, it still happens such as when you said that a person who does not believe that God is olso evil is not in the truth. Not in the truth of the false prophets of Israel!

Yes in creating good then a natural result would be the shadow of evil.

In making cars do car makers make wrecks?

In making hammers do hammer makers make smashed thumbs?

Flappie, what your proposing is a kingdom divided against itself, a bipolar God.

That's not the flapalishous Flappie that I've come to sort of know. :corbather:



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#18 Flappie

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 02:00 PM

Isaiah 45:7 is not just Isaiah's opinion, or some other "human reference", he is quoting God, they are God's words.

Lightning sometimes kills people, does that mean someone other than God made it? Avalanches kill people, does that mean there's a devil piling snow on mountains?

No, they're created as part of God's creation, He made them, same with hurricanes, earthquakes, vulcanic eruptions, etc. etc.

And last of all, God introduced mortality, death and everything that comes with that, through Adam's actions, but God made it so none the less.
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#19 Natajack

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 02:18 PM

Precisely, Flaps. :corbather:

Lots of people, like Colter, have difficulty in conceiving of a God who could create evil as well as good. Its linked to the age-old question of why does God allow suffering and natural disasters etc.

God is not bi-polar. Those who dismiss Isaiah 45v7 have a pick-n-mix view of God's character. God *himself* is telling us in Isaiah 45v7 that He makes peace and evil. God's wisdom doesn't progress and grow like man's does. God knew our thoughts and actions before the foundation of the world. Who are we to limit Him?

I really enjoy discussing with Colter but his last post is so very unfortunate in trying to air brush out the aspects of God's character he doesn't want to believe are true.
Romans 13v11-12
And this, knowing the time, that it is time to be waking ourselves from sleep, because now our salvation is closer to us than when we believed. The night has advanced, and the day approaches..

#20 Colter

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 02:30 PM

Isaiah 45:7 is not just Isaiah's opinion, or some other "human reference", he is quoting God, they are God's words.

Lightning sometimes kills people, does that mean someone other than God made it? Avalanches kill people, does that mean there's a devil piling snow on mountains?

No, they're created as part of God's creation, He made them, same with hurricanes, earthquakes, vulcanic eruptions, etc. etc.

And last of all, God introduced mortality, death and everything that comes with that, through Adam's actions, but God made it so none the less.


Isaiah was inspired not posessed. They are Isaiahs words.

When you said God created evil I was not under the imprssion that you were talking about the natural disasters of the material world.

Evil is Evil it is ungodlyness.

Can you show me where Jesus was evil? Where he used evil to further a righteous purpose? Where Jesus compromised his message combineing Evil and Good?

When Jesus said be you perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect did he mean sometimes Good like God and sometimes Evil like God?

Edited by Colter, 23 January 2006 - 02:44 PM.

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#21 Colter

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 02:42 PM

Natajack
I would rather you address me directly rather than as a third person in a reply in which your trying to explain me to someone else. It sounds more like gossip when you do that.


Lots of people, like Colter, have difficulty in conceiving of a God who could create evil as well as good. Its linked to the age-old question of why does God allow suffering and natural disasters etc.


Evil is spiritual error and has notheing to do with material disasters.

God is not bi-polar. Those who dismiss Isaiah 45v7 have a pick-n-mix view of God's character. God *himself* is telling us in Isaiah 45v7 that He makes peace and evil. God's wisdom doesn't progress and grow like man's does. God knew our thoughts and actions before the foundation of the world. Who are we to limit Him?


Your makeing a false idol out of the Bible by saying God wrote it.

I'm defending Gods character that is being dragged down to "human" like thinking.

I really enjoy discussing with Colter but his last post is so very unfortunate in trying to air brush out the aspects of God's character he doesn't want to believe are true.


I believe Jesus is true and he never combined good and evil. The people who killed Jesus did that, the OT that they wrote should be taken in context.

Edited by Colter, 23 January 2006 - 02:45 PM.

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#22 Natajack

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 02:47 PM

Evil is Evil it is ungodlyness.

Can you show me where Jesus was evil? Where he used evil to further a righteous purpose? Where Jesus compromised his message combineing Evil and Good.

When Jesus said be you perfect evn as your father in heaven is perfect did he mean simtimes Good like God and sometimes Evil like God?

Colter, when God says 'I create peace and evil', he does not say 'I am evil'! Your response shows an apparent misunderstanding of what the verse says.

Who said Jesus was evil!? Who said Jesus used evil to further a righteous purpose? Who said Jesus compromised his message? God is not evil. God is good. But in Isaiah 45 God tells us that he CREATES peace and evil.
Romans 13v11-12
And this, knowing the time, that it is time to be waking ourselves from sleep, because now our salvation is closer to us than when we believed. The night has advanced, and the day approaches..

#23 Natajack

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 02:51 PM

I would rather you address me directly rather than as a third person in a reply in which your trying to explain me to someone else. It sounds more like gossip when you do that.

I was responding to someone else.. I thought it read better to word it the way I did rather than suddenly change mid-post the person to whom I'm addressing.

Lots of people, like Colter, have difficulty in conceiving of a God who could create evil as well as good. Its linked to the age-old question of why does God allow suffering and natural disasters etc.

Evil is spiritual error and has notheing to do with material disasters.

Evil is disobedience to God. But some versions translate the word as 'calamity'. God made the tree of knowledge of good and evil, did he not?

God is not bi-polar. Those who dismiss Isaiah 45v7 have a pick-n-mix view of God's character. God *himself* is telling us in Isaiah 45v7 that He makes peace and evil. God's wisdom doesn't progress and grow like man's does. God knew our thoughts and actions before the foundation of the world. Who are we to limit Him?

Your makeing a false idol out of the Bible by saying God wrote it.

Absolute nonsense, Colter, I;m sorry to be so blunt. Read 2 Tim 3 v 16.

I'm defending Gods character that is being dragged down to "human" like thinking.

You're defending the fluffy character you'd like to believe in.

I really enjoy discussing with Colter but his last post is so very unfortunate in trying to air brush out the aspects of God's character he doesn't want to believe are true.

I believe Jesus is true and he never combined good and evil. The people who killed Jesus did that, the OT that they wrote should be taken in context.

Jesus never combined good and evil, you're correct. The Bible is the inspired Word of God.

Edited by Natajack, 23 January 2006 - 02:52 PM.

Romans 13v11-12
And this, knowing the time, that it is time to be waking ourselves from sleep, because now our salvation is closer to us than when we believed. The night has advanced, and the day approaches..

#24 mikecassidy

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 02:58 PM

Depends on the "he" is in Samuel.

Samuel - ...the anger of the LORD was kindled... he moved David
Chronicles - Satan stood up... and provoked

"moved" and "provoked" are the same Hebrew word. Looks pretty parallel.


It's not the word translated 'moved' and 'provoked' which is the issue here. The issue is that God is said to provoke David, whereas the satan is said to provoke Israel.


I might be being a bit dim here, but I can't see that it says anywhere that Satan provoked Israel. In my Bible it says that "Satan ... provoked David". I think we might be on the same side of the debate, and that this is purely semantics, I just wanted to check.

#25 mikecassidy

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 03:13 PM

I'd just like to throw my hat into the ring on the question of Satan with a question I've never been able to get a satisfactory answer to:

Q. If we understand angels to be direct servants of God, indeed that some, most likely all have been in the presence of God, then they must know at least as much about God as we do, and almost by definition far more than we do.

Now, we know that God is all powerful – immortal, omnipotent and omnipresent – therefore angels must know this as well.

However, if Satan is an angel that rebelled and attempted to overthrow God, he must have believed that he had a chance of succeeding. Therefore angels must not believe that God is immortal and omnipotent. And this conclusion, and by extrapolation a belief in Satan as a fallen angel, I would put to you, is blasphemous.

The only answer I've ever received on this issue was "I think Satan might be insane." Which would mean that the cause of the fall of Satan was that he was possessed of a demon... :corbather:

#26 Flappie

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 03:13 PM

Isaiah was inspired not posessed. They are Isaiahs words.


That bit I just quoted, whose words are they? Yours obviously, but they're in my post.

Isaiah quoted God, but instead of "QUOTE(God @ Jan 23 in the 10th year of Hezekiah, king of Judah, 04:16 PM)" it says "Thus saith the LORD".

Isaiah 45:7 are God's words written down by Isaiah, I'm not sure why you want to deny this.
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#27 Colter

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 03:22 PM


Depends on the "he" is in Samuel.

Samuel - ...the anger of the LORD was kindled... he moved David
Chronicles - Satan stood up... and provoked

"moved" and "provoked" are the same Hebrew word. Looks pretty parallel.


It's not the word translated 'moved' and 'provoked' which is the issue here. The issue is that God is said to provoke David, whereas the satan is said to provoke Israel.


I might be being a bit dim here, but I can't see that it says anywhere that Satan provoked Israel. In my Bible it says that "Satan ... provoked David". I think we might be on the same side of the debate, and that this is purely semantics, I just wanted to check.


True

One account you had the lords anger moving David

In theThe second account the author had Satan dircting David
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#28 Colter

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 03:34 PM

I'd just like to throw my hat into the ring on the question of Satan with a question I've never been able to get a satisfactory answer to:

Q. If we understand angels to be direct servants of God, indeed that some, most likely all have been in the presence of God, then they must know at least as much about God as we do, and almost by definition far more than we do.

Now, we know that God is all powerful – immortal, omnipotent and omnipresent – therefore angels must know this as well.

However, if Satan is an angel that rebelled and attempted to overthrow God, he must have believed that he had a chance of succeeding. Therefore angels must not believe that God is immortal and omnipotent. And this conclusion, and by extrapolation a belief in Satan as a fallen angel, I would put to you, is blasphemous.

The only answer I've ever received on this issue was "I think Satan might be insane." Which would mean that the cause of the fall of Satan was that he was possessed of a demon... :corbather:



Excellent question!

There is more to the story. There are celestrials such as "heavenly host" mentioned in the Bible. I think that these heavenly host are between us and God in intelligence.

While much more intelligent than us "crafty" they still have not attained comprehension of the father on paradise so they also live by faith. Apparently one of them fell in love with himself via self contemplation and decided upon his own that there was no God and then announced himself "God of this world." These are the rebels spoken of in Rev. that "lead the whole world astray."

You are absolutely correct that if we presume angels are perfect or any other kind of celestial beings are perfect and that they know God already then why would one fall?

The Satan or devil in revelation has "fallen angels" so this is proof that they are not infallible.
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#29 Flappie

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 03:38 PM

Dude, the word angel simply means messenger. Satan's angels are just bad people.

Spiritual angels can't sin, and so can't fall.
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#30 Colter

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 04:21 PM

Dude, the word angel simply means messenger. Satan's angels are just bad people.

Spiritual angels can't sin, and so can't fall.


Christadelphians have turned the angels into people to jive with Dr. Thomas's theology. The Bible does not say that the angels are people.
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