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What does God look like?


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#1 tsunade sama

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 05:46 PM

Hi everyone! This is the third time Ive started writing this. The first time i managed to delete everything I'd written! Anyway, third time lucky!

A while ago I was discussing with another sister the extent to which God was involved in creation due to the use of the word Elohim throughout Gen 1. I believe God was entirely in control and told the angels what to do and they followed his design exactly. My friend believes that the angels had much more "creative licence" (thats the best way of putting it) and that God wasnt as involved.

Any thoughts on this are welcome because I didnt quite understand her argument, although I believe its held by quite a few people.

The point I want to make is concerning man being in the image of God. I know many people find it very difficult to visualise God, myself included. We know that he is a spirit and we are told that we are in his image. On a very simple level, I understand this to mean that we look like God but he is a spirit and we are flesh and blood. Some people think there is a big difference between ours and Gods appearance and that we dont actually resemble him that much. I think this has to do with the thought I started with but I would like to try and refute this argument.

Gen 5v1-3
"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them , and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth."

According to strongs, Likeness means, resemblance, model, shape, like;- fashion, similitude, like manner.
Image means: A phantom, illusion, resemblance, hence a representative figure.

(We cant understand Adam begeting a son in his own image differently to God creating man is his own image. To say, because we can all see that men resemble one another, that it means a different thing when referring to God is wrong. If man is made in the image of God, surely it means we look like him, in the same way that men look like each other.)

This may not make any difference if your belief is that we are in the image of the angels and not God. However, 1 Cor 11v7:
"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God..."

God here means: Deity, the supreme divinity.
We are also told in Col 1v15 that Christ is the, "...image of the invisible God..." (God being invisible because no man can see him and live, but still having an image. Our eyes arent allowed to see him. ) The word for God here is the same as in 1 Cor 11.
I cant find that verse that says we shuold love all men as they are all in Gods image and were made by him, but Im sure youre familiar with it. Anyway, these verses dont seem to be referring to the angels at all, but specifically God. This definately leads me to believe that we do look like physically like God, even though we are of a different nature.

Do people agree with this? Does anyone have any thoughts on the beginning of the post and does anyone here actually have trouble with the idea that we do physically look like God?

:coffee: Tsunade x

Edited by tsunade sama, 03 January 2006 - 05:52 PM.

And it shall come to pass that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there shall they be called the children of the living God (Rom 9:26)

#2 Adanac

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 07:18 PM

God is spirit and I don't think, when we consider the "form" of God, or whatever we call it, that it refers to anything physical - that would miss the entire point of him being spirit.

When it speaks of God's "hand", for example, I don't believe that it literally means that God has a hand like we have hands. Giant hands that fill the universe. When God put his hand over Moses' face in Exodus 33, well, man alive - that is one big hand to have over your face. No, I don't think it's literally a giant hand that he has.

The ancients (and this is non-Biblical mumbo jumbo but it interesting to think about) believed that there were three main elements - air, fire and water - and that these describe God's essence. The main constituents of air, fire and water are nitrogen (air), hydrogen (fire) and oxygen (water), all gases that you can't perceive with your senses. There is a fourth element - earth - that was said to come from the other three. So when God created man in his image he took earth (and the element here would be carbon) and breathed his spirit (nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen) into him and man became a living soul. Every cell in the body, every piece of DNA we have, is made up of nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen and carbon. It's the carbon that makes us solid - otherwise we'd just be gas. If God is spirit then he isn't solid - there is nothing earthy about him.

Yes I have been reading neo-spiritual Kabbalistic nonsense (it's easy to get bored on vacation) but it's an interesting analogy all the same.
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#3 tsunade sama

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 08:12 PM

But when we are changed in the kingdom, wont we be spirit as well? Like the angels? Sorry, dont have time to look up the ref at the moment.


I dont think that God is giant being that floats around with giant hands !!! :clap2: but if we are not in his form, why are we told we are? if he doesnt have a form as a spirit, why are we told he does? (in that we are told we have his form)


I have heard these thoughts from christadelphians, not other religions.

Edited by tsunade sama, 03 January 2006 - 08:15 PM.

And it shall come to pass that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there shall they be called the children of the living God (Rom 9:26)

#4 Amy Parkin

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 08:41 PM

I always thought it to mean that we share similar characteristics? God created us to be like Him, as far as that is possible, and to be companions with which He could share His wonderful creation, and the future Kingdom. If God looks like us and is not Spirit, then how can He be so powerful? I struggle with your view, tsunade, while you struggle with mine. I can't say who is right, and it doesn't really matter. We can only speculate, but I can't imagine that God is a being just like us. It would be weird to me to think that God looks just like you or me, and I think that to me that idea is bringing Him down from a higher position.

Then we have the question: why was Jesus born? Ok, you can argue that God couldn't have come himself to the earth because He is immortal, and therefore couldn't have died for us etc. but I believe that Jesus was a physical representation of everything God is. He shows us God's character in a way we can comprehend. Everything God is, we must be, yet how do we know unless we look at the example of Jesus?

I'm not sure how to say what I want to say, because I can see your point, and I haven't got it black and white in my head anyway, but maybe you can get something out of my ramblings? This is something I'd love to find an answer to as well, so argue away with me and try and change my mind. It will do me good!
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#5 tsunade sama

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:43 PM

Oh im definately not saying God is not spirit. In fact thats exactly what I am saying, that he definately is. That is what i am trying to understand-how we can look like God physically, yet be in a different form to him (flesh and blood.)
What I am interested in is how we are told we look physically like him if most people are of the opinion that we dont. I know about God manifestation and that Christ was the perfect manifestation of God in all that he did. Thats not the angle im coming from. Im looking purely at physical appearance. As I quoted from strongs in the original post, likeness means: resemblance, model, shape. This seems to refer to physical attributes rather than spiritual. Also the angels are in the image of God as we see when they appear to men, as men. eg Abraham, Balaam etc. If the angels are spirits but have the physical atributes (ie appear as men, although often in great glory) why is it hard to imagine God sharing this appearance (although of course in spirit form and in unimaginable glory)?
And it shall come to pass that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there shall they be called the children of the living God (Rom 9:26)

#6 tsunade sama

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:48 PM

Just to reinforce, I am in no way trying to play down the greatness of God, as even if we did come to a conclusion on this subject, we will not fully understand Gods greatness until we are made like Christ, God willing, in the kingdom. Im also aware that it is not of great importance but it is something i have been involved in discussions about recently and find interesting and challenging.

x Tsunade :clap2:
And it shall come to pass that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there shall they be called the children of the living God (Rom 9:26)

#7 Adanac

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:49 PM

Why can't "resemblence, form" etc. be thought of in a spiritual sense?
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#8 Amy Parkin

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:51 PM

Maybe we look like what God would look like if He was human? That sounds stupid, but hear me out. Angels can take on many different forms - a pillar of cloud or fire, ordinary humans - and we are told that they encamp around us. So maybe they don't look like us in their "normal" state, but they can take on human form when neccessary.

We can't look like them in their "normal" state, because we are not Spirit, and if we take Adanac's analogy on board, we contain carbon. So what if we appear as God would if He also had the earth element in Him? And the angels sometimes do this in order to communicate God's Will.

A tad far-fetched?
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
and He will make straight your paths."


--Proverbs 3:5-6

#9 Amy Parkin

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:53 PM

Why can't "resemblence, form" etc. be thought of in a spiritual sense?

Can you explain exactly how you would form that argument? I was going to take that route, but then thought: how are we like God in a spiritual sense, when we are so sinful and many people rarely show forth His attributes?
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
and He will make straight your paths."


--Proverbs 3:5-6

#10 Tarinus

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 10:28 PM

:clap2:

In scripture we are invited to think of God as having a physical form that our own physical form has been patterned on.

Here is a short list of the various physical attributes that God presents Himself as having:

Head – Jer. 9:1
Eyes – Prov. 7:2
Pupil – Deut. 32:10
Arms – Isa. 59:16
Face – Psa. 27:9, Psa. 44:3
Hands – Isa. 40:12
Fingers – Psa. 8:3
Bowels – Jer. 31:20
Heart – Hos. 11:8
Feet – Isa. 37:25

Furthermore:

He is presented as having a personal location. Ecc. 5:2, Ps. 102:19-20, 1 Kings 8:39
He is also presented as sitting on a throne! 2 Chron. 9:8, Ps. 11:4, Isa. 6:1, 66:1
In Revelation 4 and 5 He is sitting on a throne with a scroll in His right hand.

All that's enough for me to think of Him as having a physical, bodily form.

#11 Jeremy

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 10:36 PM

From evidence such as Tarinus has supplied, I'm sure we resemble God in physical form. I take "image and likeness" in Genesis to mean that we're like Him in body, and should therefore aspire to be like Him in character too. God-manifestation (to use a non-biblical phrase which nevertheless describes a very biblical idea).

I also imagine the Almighty to be slighty under six feet in height. I can't prove that, and please don't think me in any way irreverent - it's simple the picture of my heavenly Father which I have in my mind.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#12 Tarinus

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 10:38 PM

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This is the verse most often used to support the idea of the non-corporeality of God.

If that's what it means, how are we to worship Him in 'non-corporeality and in truth'? :clap2:

This verse is not one I've got to the bottom of yet, but in the face of the myriad of examples where God refers to Himself as having physical form... I'm very reluctant to take this one passage of scripture and have it redefine God so dramatically.

#13 John Bedson

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 10:47 PM

I put this on another thread. Some of it may be useful here.
................................................................................
......................................................
Firstly, we can only speculate, because The Bible gives little or no information on this subject. So, I will tell you what I theorise happens:

In the film “Love and Death, Woody Allen says: “I believe in an unseen power that watches over us at all times - it’s called the government.” He is perfectly correct in what he says. But it would be quite wrong to imagine that our Prime Minister or President enters our home and watches us as we eat or sleep. But in the sense that the various agencies of the government monitor what we do, we are watched over.

Because God is a human being, (Adam was made “in the image of God” therefore God must look like us and like his Son) it would be likewise impossible, or at the least improbable that he would bother to watch us himself. The various angelic agencies of heaven empowered by The Holy Sprit must be employed in the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient work of God and they must have a mechanism to both transfer, analyse and store this incredible amount of data. God must have constructed what we would term a “network” to collect and handle the data.

I’m only speculating, but I would imagine that various routers are built into the system to filter out the “chatter” and “background noise” of trivia, so that only the relevant data gets analysed and moved up the chain of command for possible action. I would imagine that God only concerns himself with a very small amount of feedback from Earth. I would imagine that we are only a small part of His overall plan and this might involve life on other planets in our universe and perhaps vast numbers of parallel universes as well.

Modern physics holds that our universe is finite and that there is nothing beyond it. But it also describes a “void” into which matter from our universe returns and from which matter is returned to our universe. There appears to be a constant “recycling” of matter between our universe and another place that exists in a dimension that we know nothing about, except that we do know that the physics of our universe do not apply. For example the physics of our universe cease to operate beyond the “event horizons” in black holes.

I hold the view and would suggest the theory that “heaven” must exist not outside our universe and certainly not within it, but most likely somewhere beyond “event horizons” either within “the void” or within part of it or perhaps even beyond it. A data collection network, powered by the Holy Spirit must operate to collect and transfer all relevant information to this place where “the government” (of Heaven) handles it and takes whatever action may be required.

It appears to me that the whole “purpose of life” is that God is using our universe and perhaps others, to create something that he is not able to create directly by the manipulation of nuclear particles. He is creating “character” of various types that are of his liking and choosing. One could use the metaphor of a computer programmer creating a programme. God can create the “hardware” (us) and he can create the software (the programme that runs in our minds). But just as we can use software for various purposes, both good and bad, God has allowed our software to have a mind and intelligence and a conscience which is INDEPENDENT of his and of him.

This is a mind boggling thing when you think about it. Although God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, he has gone to a huge amount of trouble and expenditure of energy to create something which is INDEPENDENT of him. We appear to be the only thing in the entire universe that is capable of being INDEPENDENT of God. We can disobey him if we choose. We can rebel. We do! Nothing else in the universe can do that.

So there is a remarkable thing. God does not take pleasure in his omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient abilities. To him that must be boring, as it would to me if I were God. Instead God takes pleasure in observing what happens when he allows something to happen that is beyond even His control and (by way of example) deep within a human mind, a titanic battle between good and evil is waged, as a Christadelphian1 goes off the rails for twenty years and then fights his way back.

Ultimately it is promised to the righteous that they will be part of God. "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

I think that though us, God is more creating more people like himself. "In his image" in every possible way.

I think that he is extending and expanding the Godhead.

#14 tsunade sama

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:02 PM

:P

In scripture we are invited to think of God as having a physical form that our own physical form has been patterned on.

Here is a short list of the various physical attributes that God presents Himself as having:

Head – Jer. 9:1
Eyes – Prov. 7:2
Pupil – Deut. 32:10
Arms – Isa. 59:16
Face – Psa. 27:9, Psa. 44:3
Hands – Isa. 40:12
Fingers – Psa. 8:3
Bowels – Jer. 31:20
Heart – Hos. 11:8
Feet – Isa. 37:25

Furthermore:

He is presented as having a personal location. Ecc. 5:2, Ps. 102:19-20, 1 Kings 8:39
He is also presented as sitting on a throne! 2 Chron. 9:8, Ps. 11:4, Isa. 6:1, 66:1
In Revelation 4 and 5 He is sitting on a throne with a scroll in His right hand.

All that's enough for me to think of Him as having a physical, bodily form.

Thank you Tarinus, thats really helpful. :clap2:

Jeremy, I know what you mean about your image of God in your head. I think we all have one. Mine is totally irreverent. I im,agine him with a big white beard, sitting on a throne which is floating around in space. Totally unbiblical I know!

Sorry, I cant work out how to add quotes, but Adanac, how can a spiritual attribute, such as for example, purity, have a physical form?
And it shall come to pass that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there shall they be called the children of the living God (Rom 9:26)

#15 Adanac

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 12:26 AM

:P

In scripture we are invited to think of God as having a physical form that our own physical form has been patterned on.

Here is a short list of the various physical attributes that God presents Himself as having:

Head – Jer. 9:1
Eyes – Prov. 7:2
Pupil – Deut. 32:10
Arms – Isa. 59:16
Face – Psa. 27:9, Psa. 44:3
Hands – Isa. 40:12
Fingers – Psa. 8:3
Bowels – Jer. 31:20
Heart – Hos. 11:8
Feet – Isa. 37:25

Furthermore:

He is presented as having a personal location. Ecc. 5:2, Ps. 102:19-20, 1 Kings 8:39
He is also presented as sitting on a throne! 2 Chron. 9:8, Ps. 11:4, Isa. 6:1, 66:1
In Revelation 4 and 5 He is sitting on a throne with a scroll in His right hand.

All that's enough for me to think of Him as having a physical, bodily form.

You take all of that literally? :clap2:

He has bowels, for example? Really? :P
Housework has been a snap since I realized... "Hey! I'm a guy!".

#16 Tarinus

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 01:13 AM


:P

In scripture we are invited to think of God as having a physical form that our own physical form has been patterned on.

Here is a short list of the various physical attributes that God presents Himself as having:

Head – Jer. 9:1
Eyes – Prov. 7:2
Pupil – Deut. 32:10
Arms – Isa. 59:16
Face – Psa. 27:9, Psa. 44:3
Hands – Isa. 40:12
Fingers – Psa. 8:3
Bowels – Jer. 31:20
Heart – Hos. 11:8
Feet – Isa. 37:25

Furthermore:

He is presented as having a personal location. Ecc. 5:2, Ps. 102:19-20, 1 Kings 8:39
He is also presented as sitting on a throne! 2 Chron. 9:8, Ps. 11:4, Isa. 6:1, 66:1
In Revelation 4 and 5 He is sitting on a throne with a scroll in His right hand.

All that's enough for me to think of Him as having a physical, bodily form.

You take all of that literally? :clap2:


I didn't say that I took it all literally, but to say that He is incorporeal in spite of the above list is at best an argument from silence.

Its certainly clear how we are invited to think of Him and a physical bodily form is certainly easier for us to relate to than an invisible wafting blob of raw power and intelligence. :P

#17 Adanac

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 05:37 AM

With that, Tarinus, I agree.
Housework has been a snap since I realized... "Hey! I'm a guy!".

#18 John Bedson

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 06:40 AM

In Gen 3 God "walked in the garden in the cool of the day."

- He's a man, he's one of us. He does not like the Middle Eastern heat; he prefers the cool of the evening. He can talk face to face with Moses and change his mind. He has emotions and can get "angry" - he can even "repent".

It's only when you realise that God is one of us and that we are like God that the whole Bible starts to make sense. He's not weak like us, or subject to sin and he is all powerful. But we were made in his image, so he must be in our image. It is possible that God himself could walk by you in a shopping mall and you would not know it. It’s unlikely, but theoretically possible. To deny what I have just written, is to deny that God is all powerfull and that to him all things are possible. It could happen. So watch what you're doing at all times.

Edited by John Bedson, 04 January 2006 - 06:41 AM.


#19 Evangelion

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 08:22 AM

Hi everyone! This is the third time Ive started writing this. The first time i managed to delete everything I'd written! Anyway, third time lucky!

A while ago I was discussing with another sister the extent to which God was involved in creation due to the use of the word Elohim throughout Gen 1. I believe God was entirely in control and told the angels what to do and they followed his design exactly. My friend believes that the angels had much more "creative licence" (thats the best way of putting it) and that God wasnt as involved.

Any thoughts on this are welcome because I didnt quite understand her argument, although I believe its held by quite a few people.

The point I want to make is concerning man being in the image of God. I know many people find it very difficult to visualise God, myself included. We know that he is a spirit and we are told that we are in his image. On a very simple level, I understand this to mean that we look like God but he is a spirit and we are flesh and blood. Some people think there is a big difference between ours and Gods appearance and that we dont actually resemble him that much. I think this has to do with the thought I started with but I would like to try and refute this argument.

Gen 5v1-3
"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them , and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth."

According to strongs, Likeness means, resemblance, model, shape, like;- fashion, similitude, like manner.
Image means: A phantom, illusion, resemblance, hence a representative figure.

(We cant understand Adam begeting a son in his own image differently to God creating man is his own image. To say, because we can all see that men resemble one another, that it means a different thing when referring to God is wrong. If man is made in the image of God, surely it means we look like him, in the same way that men look like each other.)

This may not make any difference if your belief is that we are in the image of the angels and not God. However, 1 Cor 11v7:
"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God..."

God here means: Deity, the supreme divinity.
We are also told in Col 1v15 that Christ is the, "...image of the invisible God..." (God being invisible because no man can see him and live, but still having an image. Our eyes arent allowed to see him. ) The word for God here is the same as in 1 Cor 11.
I cant find that verse that says we shuold love all men as they are all in Gods image and were made by him, but Im sure youre familiar with it. Anyway, these verses dont seem to be referring to the angels at all, but specifically God. This definately leads me to believe that we do look like physically like God, even though we are of a different nature.

Do people agree with this? Does anyone have any thoughts on the beginning of the post and does anyone here actually have trouble with the idea that we do physically look like God?

:coffee: Tsunade x


I agree with your analysis. :clap2:

Click here for my thoughts on the subject - with particular reference to Genesis 1:26. :coffee:
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas
Imago
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#20 Tarinus

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 08:52 AM

Click here for my thoughts on the subject - with particular reference to Genesis 1:26. birgits_coffee.gif


Nice work Ev! Thanks.

#21 John Bedson

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 08:57 AM

I also agree completely with Ev.

#22 tsunade sama

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 10:48 AM

That was excellent Ev. Exactly what I was trying to say, but I think you did it a lot better!!!

John, Im afraid I dont agree with your comment about God walking past us in a shopping mall. God, although in our image, is too glorious, and we are too sinful, to be in each others presence. I do think that we can be in the presence of angels however, as we are cleraly told in Heb 13v2

"Be not forgetful to entertain strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."

x Tsunade
And it shall come to pass that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there shall they be called the children of the living God (Rom 9:26)

#23 John Bedson

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 11:10 AM

That was excellent Ev. Exactly what I was trying to say, but I think you did it a lot better!!!

John, Im afraid I dont agree with your comment about God walking past us in a shopping mall. God, although in our image, is too glorious, and we are too sinful, to be in each others presence. I do think that we can be in the presence of angels however, as we are cleraly told in Heb 13v2

"Be not forgetful to entertain strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."

x Tsunade


So you think that God not all powerful enough to walk past us in a shopping mall? He can't do it? it's beyond his power and abilities? He could stand with Adam, Eve and Moses, who were sinners, but he's not able to sit on a street corner begging for food if he so chose to do?

He can do ANYTHING he wants. To deny that is to challenge his power!

Perhaps in some remote corner of the world, God still sometimes walks "in the cool of the day" and enjoys the smell of the sea and the flowers? Perhaps he leaves footprints behind? Perhaps he raises dead Christadelphians to briefly walk with him and discuss human affairs?

Edited by John Bedson, 04 January 2006 - 11:14 AM.


#24 Corbather

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 11:20 AM

correct me if I am wrong, but I always believed that in the garden when "god" came and talked with Adam, that it was an angel... and the reason I say that is because it uses the words the LORD God, which if Im correct thats refers to the elohim.. which is angels.
From that.. I would say it was an angel sent by God to talk to Adam and Eve....


Why would God resurrect dead christadelphians to discuss human affairs with them??? surely he doesnt need their advice??





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The road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with weary feet, until it joins some larger way,
where many paths and errands meet .
And wither when? I cannot say

#25 John Bedson

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 11:28 AM

correct me if I am wrong, but I always believed that in the garden when "god" came and talked with Adam, that it was an angel... and the reason I say that is because it uses the words the LORD God, which if Im correct thats refers to the elohim.. which is angels.
From that.. I would say it was an angel sent by God to talk to Adam and Eve....


Why would God resurrect dead christadelphians to discuss human affairs with them??? surely he doesnt need their advice??





:clap2:


Elohim is frequently used of God. It is sometimes used of angels.

What do you say Ev?

#26 tsunade sama

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 11:33 AM

So you think that God not all powerful enough to walk past us in a shopping mall? He can't do it? it's beyond his power and abilities? He could stand with Adam, Eve and Moses, who were sinners, but he's not able to sit on a street corner begging for food if he so chose to do?

He can do ANYTHING he wants. To deny that is to challenge his power!


Yes but in Gen 3v8-24, it is the voice of God they hear;

"They heard the voice of God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord among the trees of the garden."

So they do not actually see God here, they only hear his voice. We are not told whether Adam and Eve physically saw God before the fall, but as they had not sinned before then, I suppose they could have seen God and lived until they sinned. Any thoughts on this anyone?

Also, Moses was only allowed to see Gods back.

Ex 33v22,23
"And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen."

And after he has been in the presence of the Lord, we are told,

Ex 24v29,30
"And it came to pass, when Moses came down form mount sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses knew not that the skin of his face shonewhile he talked with him. And when Aaron and the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone and they were afraid to come nigh unto him."

Surely if Moses, as Gods chosen instrument, can only see the back of God and live, and still be affected in this way, with the glowing of his skin, how would sinners (meaning those who have knowledge or love of God) be affected if God came into their presence? Especially if, to use your example John, he walked past them in a shopping mall, not just his back but his whole body. This I suppose would also necessitate God somehow stopping his glory shining from him. Remember Gods glory is so great that after the 1000 years it is the light and the sun is not needed. Also, why would God bestow this great reward of seeing him to the man in the street? Im afraid it doesnt make sense. I do understand that nothing is impossible with God. I suppose we have to look at it from the angle of would he actually do it.

x Tsunade

Edited by Cdelph, 04 January 2006 - 03:51 PM.

And it shall come to pass that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there shall they be called the children of the living God (Rom 9:26)

#27 Jeremy

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 11:34 AM

So you think that God not all powerful enough to walk past us in a shopping mall? He can't do it? it's beyond his power and abilities? He could stand with Adam, Eve and Moses, who were sinners, but he's not able to sit on a street corner begging for food if he so chose to do?

He can do ANYTHING he wants. To deny that is to challenge his power!

I think God can do anything, agreed. But I also think the Bible teaches that He won't do certain things. They're not in keeping with His revealed character and purpose.

Thus I have no problem if God wanted to walk down Rundle Mall in Adelaide undetected (sorry, John - I don't know the name of any of the malls in Melbourne!). But in the light of passages like Rev. 21v 3...

"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

...I'm not expecting Him to do so yet. The world is so full of sin it would be unthinkable (to me) for that to happen. But when the Earth is a fit place for Him to live, that's different.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#28 Corbather

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 11:35 AM

and what about:
1 Tim 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

??





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The road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with weary feet, until it joins some larger way,
where many paths and errands meet .
And wither when? I cannot say

#29 Jeremy

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 11:37 AM

correct me if I am wrong, but I always believed that in the garden when "god" came and talked with Adam, that it was an angel... and the reason I say that is because it uses the words the LORD God, which if Im correct thats refers to the elohim.. which is angels.
From that.. I would say it was an angel sent by God to talk to Adam and Eve....

I would say that's likely. But there was such a closeness between God and His sinless creation at that time that I wouldn't rule out God being there in person. I can then see a symmetry between Him inhabiting the earth prior to sin, and inhabiting the earth after sin has been removed, possibly hinted at in that quote above from Rev. 21.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#30 tsunade sama

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 12:20 PM

correct me if I am wrong, but I always believed that in the garden when "god" came and talked with Adam, that it was an angel... and the reason I say that is because it uses the words the LORD God, which if Im correct thats refers to the elohim.. which is angels.
From that.. I would say it was an angel sent by God to talk to Adam and Eve....

I would say that's likely. But there was such a closeness between God and His sinless creation at that time that I wouldn't rule out God being there in person. I can then see a symmetry between Him inhabiting the earth prior to sin, and inhabiting the earth after sin has been removed, possibly hinted at in that quote above from Rev. 21.


Yes that sounds very likely, especially taking the view that everything will return to how it was in the garden of Eden when Gods creation was perfect. I hadnt thought before that the actual presence of God would be physically seen by Adam and Eve, but if they were perfect, as we will be when we see God (Rev 22v4 And They shall see his face and his name shall be in their foreheads) then it is quite believable.
And it shall come to pass that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there shall they be called the children of the living God (Rom 9:26)




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