21 replies to this topic

[Huldah]

Julian, on Aug 12 2005, 05:46 PM, said:

Will Islam fight against Jesus when he returns?

I've often wondered what the Muslim reaction will be when Jesus returns. Muslims I'm sure would not set out to fight against Jesus, but there is the question of whether Jesus will be recognised when He returns. Our scriptures each say different things about this event.

I'm thinking along two lines:
1. What the Bible says.
2. What Islamic scriptures say.

I've read a couple of Muslim publications about the end times according to Islamic belief, and some things are similar and some aren't. I have to admit I found it a bit confusing, it referred to both Qur'an and bits of Hadith.

Out of my own interest in this subject, I'd like to make a comparison between what we Christians believe will be the order of events & description of characters, and what Muslims believe will be the order of events & description of characters.

Muslims on this forum, can (one or more of) you write a bullet point list of your beliefs on the order of end times events, and can you give a description of Dajjal (your version of the antiChrist)? Ta.

[R2D2]

Many Christadelphians I know believe that muslims will probably be more receptive to Jesus' return than mainstream christians. I mean if he returns and sets the record straight about the trinity then many christians may believe he is a false Christ.

Also according to a pentecostal girl I used to work with some christians believe that an anti-christ is coming and will base himself from Jerusalem. It is possible that Jesus will be labelled as an antichrist.

R2D2

[EliYah]

Here's something I found

Major Signs (in rough chronological order)

"Al-Dajjal will come, claiming to be God holding Heaven and Hell. His purpose is to deceive, and unbelievers will follow him. He is short, red-faced, blind in the right eye, and has hair which sticks up. He will go around the world, but will be unable to enter Madinah or Makkah." [There are numerous detailed ahadith on this man.]

"Al-Mahdi will come at the time of Al-Dajjal. He will call to the true Islam, and will be a military leader. His name will be exactly like that of the Prophet: Muhammad ibn Abd-Allah, and his father's name will match the Prophet's father's name also. He will be descended from Fatima, the daughter of the Prophet."

"Isa (Jesus) will come at the time of Al-Dajjal and al-Mahdi as well. He will descend at the time of Fajr prayer on a masjid in Damascus, the capital of Syria. He is of medium height, red-faced, and his hair is as if he just took a shower. He will call people back to Islam, but he will also be a military leader. The People of the Book will revert to Islam, and wealth will be super-abundant. Isa will break the cross, kill the swine, and personally slay Al-Dajjal. He will stay on Earth for a long time thereafter, and then die."

"An animal will come and call people back to Islam." [A partial description of this animal is that it is very hairy, so much so that one will not be able to tell its front from its rear (Arabic: 'Dab-ba'). Reference to this animal is mentioned in the Qur'an.]

"Gog and Magog (two hidden tribes of people) will break free of the dam that holds them back, and ravage the earth. They will drink all the water, and kill people until Allah sends against them a worm which will wipe them out." [This is roughly before/during the time of Isa, although it is not entirely clear.]

"Three places in the world will sink and be swallowed up by the earth. One in the west, one in the east, and one in the Saudi Arabian peninsula." [This may refer to a series of giant, epic earthquakes.]

"Fire will come from the area of Aden in Yemen, and sweep northwards." [There are claims that this already happened in some medevial event.]

"The sun will rise from the west." [This description is not meant to be a symbolic one...but it is known that it is one of the last, if not the very last one before the following.]

"Smoke will appear all over the earth which will cause believers to catch something similar to a slight cold, whereas the unbelievers will be hit harder by it.

Finally, a cold wind will come and kill all believers, leaving only unbelievers on the earth who will then witness the LAST HOUR. The angel Israfil will blow a trumpet, and the resurrection of all human beings will begin." [At this point, the Day of Resurrection commences in which the skies and earth are destroyed by Allah.]

This list is far from complete; there are many other signs. A couple more of interest are: Constantinople (Istanbul) will fall before Rome to Islam (note that this means Rome will indeed fall), and the Muslim political system will go from Prophetic leadership to a just Khilafah to a 'biting' authority to an oppressive authority and finally back to a just Khilafah. It seems that today we are in the next to last stage of this chain; now is a good time to actively work for the reestablishment of the Muslim state and Khilafah.

Finally, the Prophet has said that when the Signs start to come, they will come FAST - like a string of beads falling one after the other.

And Allah Knows Best.

[EliYah]

And here is another thing

1- The conclusion of all the "minor signs of the Hour." These signs are between 65 and 100 signs depending on the strength of the reports, and they have all taken place. Insha Allah we will post them at some later point.

2- The truce and joint Christian-Muslim campaign against a common enemy -- this is referred to as the "Battle Between the Two Great Armies" or Armageddon (at the conclusion of which all war technology shall become unusable) -- followed by a Christian vs. Muslim war -- this is called the "Great Slaughter" (al-malhama al-kubra) -- as stated in the following hadith:

"You will make a firm truce with the Christians (al-Rum) until you and they wage a campaign against an enemy that is attacking them. You will be granted victory and great spoils. Then you will alight in a plain surrounded by hills. There, someone among the Christians shall say: 'The Cross has overcome!' whereupon someone among the Muslims shall say: 'Nay, Allah has overcome!' and shall go and break the cross. The Christians shall kill him, then the Muslims shall take up their arms and the two sides shall fall upon each other. Allah shall grant martyrdom to that group of Muslims. After that the Christians shall say to their leader: 'We shall relieve you of the Arabs,' and they shall gather up for the great battle (al-malhama). They shall come to you under eighty flags, each flag gathering 12,000 troops." [approx. 1 million]

Narrated with sound chains from Dhu Mikhbar al-Najashi by Abu Dawud, Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Ibn Hibban, and al-Hakim who declared it sahih and al-Dhahabi concurred. See Shaykh Shu`ayb Arna'ut's documentation of this hadith in his edition of Sahih Ibn Hibban (15:101-103 #6708-6709).

3- The Muslims shall pledge their loyalty to the Prophet's descendent Muhammad ibn `Abd Allah al-Mahdi between the Corner of the Black Stone and Ibrahim's station, against his will. He shall then come to Madina. At that time the Anti-Christ (al-Masih al-Dajjal) shall come out.

4- The Christian army shall be the aggressor, and they will come to a place called al-A`maq or Dabiq in al-Sham as stated in Sahih Muslim. During that time a large number of the Christians shall defect and enter Islam.

5- Between the time of the initial Christian treachery and their coming out to Dabiq, the Prophet said that nine months will elapse, during which the Mahdi will wage two campaigns initiated by the Dajjal, one against the Arabs that shall not recognize him, and one against the Persians of Khurasan i.e. Iran that shall not recognize him. Both campaigns are mentioned in Sahih Muslim. Included in the former group will be all the so-called followers of "Qur'an-only" who will reject the Mahdi on the pretext that he is not mentioned in the Qur'an. Among the latter group will be all the so-called lovers of Ahl al-Bayt who will reject the Mahdi on the pretext that he is not their disappeared twelfth Imam, al-`Askari, whose reappearance they presently await.

6- Al-Mahdi will come out of Madina at the head of a huge army to face al-Dajjal and the Christians for the Great Slaughter. This shall take place in Sham.

7- The Mahdi will find himself surrounded by the armies of the Dajjal. `Isa shall descend, lead the Muslim armies out, and kill the Dajjal. The rest of the Muslim campaigns shall remove all trace of unbelief from the face of the earth.


8- At this time Constantinople shall be taken by peaceful means. The army that will conquer it shall consist in seventy thousand of the Banu Ishaq i.e. Western Muslims and their sole weapons will be Shahada and Takbir as stated in Sahih Muslim. This is the event referred to in the hadith we cited initially.

9- The Mahdi shall defeat the following in rapid succession: the last third of the Jews (two thirds having perished at Armageddon); the "Turks" -- also called "Khawz and Kirman" in the hadith -- whose features in the hadith are applicable to both Central and Far-Eastern Asians; Gog and Magog.

10- Other major signs* follow before the rising of the Hour, such as the coming out of the Beast and the rising of the Sun in the West, at which time the gate of repentence shall be closed shut forever, and Allah knows best.

GF Haddad ©
[1999-04-06]

[EliYah]

And the following description (brief summary) of the Dajjal is found in Sheikh Ahmad Ali's book - The Major signs before the day of Qiyamah.

Dajjal's Physical description

The Dajjal is a young1 fat 2 man, wheatish3 in complexion with a broad chest 4 and biting teeth. Resembling Abdul Uzzah bin Qatad from the tribe of Khuza'a his head is covered7 with curly hair8 with the letters "Ka' "Fa" "Ra''9 written between his eyes which every believer will be able to clearly see and read literate or illiterate, he has a shining forehead10 and defect in both eyes. His left eye has a swelling pupil11 while he is blind12 from the right. He has a brisk walk13and no children14

Footnote:
1) Nawwas-b-Samaan / Muslim 8) Nawwas-b-Samaan / Muslim
2) Ibne-Umar / Bukhari /1 Muslim 9) Hudaifah / Muslim
3) Abdullab-b-Mugaffal / Kanzul-Ummal 10) Abu Huraira / Musnad Ahmad
4) Abu Huraira / Musnad Ahmad 11) Hudaifah / Muslim
5) Abu Bakara / Tirmidhi 12) Ibne Umar / Bukhari / Muslim
6) Nawwas-b-Samaan / Muslim 13) Ubiadah / Abu Daud
7) Hudaifah / Muslim 14) Abu Saeed al-Khudri / Muslim

[Mercia2]

Quote

Al-Dajjal will come, claiming to be God holding Heaven and Hell. His purpose is to deceive, and unbelievers will follow him. He is short, red-faced, blind in the right eye, and has hair which sticks up

And you expect someone with a red face, blind in one eye, and with a sticky up hair style to procure a world wide following who believe he is God? A man with one eye?
Are you Muslims serious?

Edited by Mercia2, 15 August 2005 - 03:47 PM.

[Huldah]

Thanks EliYah.

Would you tell me more about this detail, in particular the 'disappeared twelfth Imam al-Askari':

EliYah, on Aug 15 2005, 04:32 PM, said:

5- Between the time of the initial Christian treachery and their coming out to Dabiq, the Prophet said  that nine months will elapse, during which the Mahdi will wage two campaigns initiated by the Dajjal, one against the Arabs that shall not recognize him, and one against the Persians of Khurasan i.e. Iran that shall not recognize him. Both campaigns are mentioned in Sahih Muslim. Included in the former group will be all the so-called followers of "Qur'an-only" who will reject the Mahdi on the pretext that he is not mentioned in the Qur'an. Among the latter group will be all the so-called lovers of Ahl al-Bayt who will reject the Mahdi on the pretext that he is not their disappeared twelfth Imam, al-`Askari, whose reappearance they presently await.

[Mercia2]

Quote

"An animal will come and call people back to Islam." [A partial description of this animal is that it is very hairy, so much so that one will not be able to tell its front from its rear (Arabic: 'Dab-ba'). Reference to this animal is mentioned in the Qur'an.]

Sounds like Esau to me.

We Christians follow Abel/Jacob/Israel, we make the animal sacrifice and kill the beast within. It is called being born again, and dying to that animlistic nature. This is the acceptable sacrifice that Cain refused to make before God, he refused to sacrifice the image/character of the "beast" within (and make that acceptable animal sacrifice), unlike Abel and Jacob who became born again when he received his new name and became Israel.

Esau is the hairy animal man after the flesh not the spirit, the natural man, the unregenerate, the Muslim.

Edited by Mercia2, 15 August 2005 - 03:53 PM.

[Mercia2]

Quote

"The sun will rise from the west." [This description is not meant to be a symbolic one...but it is known that it is one of the last, if not the very last one before the following.]

Bible eschatology says sun will rise from the east.

Edited by Mercia2, 15 August 2005 - 03:56 PM.

[Mercia2]

Quote

Dajjal's Physical description

The Dajjal is a young1 fat 2 man, wheatish3 in complexion with a broad chest 4 and biting teeth. Resembling Abdul Uzzah bin Qatad from the tribe of Khuza'a his head is covered7 with curly hair8 with the letters "Ka' "Fa" "Ra''9 written between his eyes which every believer will be able to clearly see and read literate or illiterate, he has a shining forehead10 and defect in both eyes. His left eye has a swelling pupil11 while he is blind12 from the right. He has a brisk walk13and no children14

Do you not think God would be interested in his charcter not his physical appearance? We have the equivelant called the Man of Sin, and we have a long list of his characteristics (so we know how not to be). Do you really believe the REAL Word of God would be interested in going into long detailed (physical) characteristics of your equivalent of the Man of Sin?

Think about it....

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things the way men do. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." 1 Sam 16

Edited by Mercia2, 15 August 2005 - 04:06 PM.

[Huldah]

I would be more concerned about the potential bullying a blind Muslim would suffer because of this. I teach a student who very nearly fits that description of the dajjal except for the curly hair (and the writing on the forehead).

[Mercia2]

Huldah, on Aug 15 2005, 04:06 PM, said:

I would be more concerned about the potential bullying a blind Muslim would suffer because of this.  I teach a student who very nearly fits that description of the dajjal except for the curly hair.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Typical nonsense of the natural man that they come out with a long list of physical traits and not internal character traits. Everything important to the natural man is external, not internal. They are so easy to recognise from what they believe I only wish they could perceive it of themselves.

Edited by Mercia2, 15 August 2005 - 04:12 PM.

[Huldah]

Yes I take your point Mercia, but I don't see what it has to do with what I said.

[Mercia2]

Huldah, on Aug 15 2005, 04:13 PM, said:

Yes I take your point Mercia, but I don't see what it has to do with what I said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Huldah nothing much to do with your point, which was a good point.

Edited by Mercia2, 15 August 2005 - 04:17 PM.

[Huldah]

[Colter]

Dajjal's Physical description

The Dajjal is a young1 fat 2 man, wheatish3 in complexion with a broad chest 4 and biting teeth. Resembling Abdul Uzzah bin Qatad from the tribe of Khuza'a his head is covered7 with curly hair8 with the letters "Ka' "Fa" "Ra''9 written between his eyes which every believer will be able to clearly see and read literate or illiterate, he has a shining forehead10 and defect in both eyes. His left eye has a swelling pupil11 while he is blind12 from the right. He has a brisk walk13and no children14

so what your saying is that this guy will look like a Yellow Cab driver in Manhattan?

One of the Muslem clerics in Jail for trying to blow up the world trade center the first time was blind in one eye, wore a Santaclaus hat and come to think of it he had "biting teeth."

[Huldah]

Discussion about the differences between Sunni & Shi'a Islam moved here. This includes EliYah's reply to me about the disappeared twelfth Imam (thanks EliYah).

[Dawn]

EliYah, on Aug 15 2005, 03:30 PM, said:

Here's something I found

"Isa (Jesus) will come at the time of Al-Dajjal and al-Mahdi as well. He will descend at the time of Fajr prayer on a masjid in Damascus, the capital of Syria. He is of medium height, red-faced, and his hair is as if he just took a shower. He will call people back to Islam, but he will also be a military leader. The People of the Book will revert to Islam, and wealth will be super-abundant. Isa will break the cross, kill the swine, and personally slay Al-Dajjal. He will stay on Earth for a long time thereafter, and then die."

Ahem. <cough> I think this is where Muslims and Christian really part company on this issue.

[John the Bearded]

Dear Ibrahim

I would be very interested in the sources of the information that you have posted on this topic. They are not quotes from the Qur'an. While I think I can place some of them there are others that I am not familiar with.

I would be very grateful if you could cite your source.

Yours

John the Bearded.

[InChristAlways]

Mercia2, on Aug 15 2005, 10:52 AM, said:

Quote

"An animal will come and call people back to Islam." [A partial description of this animal is that it is very hairy, so much so that one will not be able to tell its front from its rear (Arabic: 'Dab-ba'). Reference to this animal is mentioned in the Qur'an.]

Sounds like Esau to me.

We Christians follow Abel/Jacob/Israel, we make the animal sacrifice and kill the beast within. It is called being born again, and dying to that animlistic nature. This is the acceptable sacrifice that Cain refused to make before God, he refused to sacrifice the image/character of the "beast" within (and make that acceptable animal sacrifice), unlike Abel and Jacob who became born again when he received his new name and became Israel.

Esau is the hairy animal man after the flesh not the spirit, the natural man, the unregenerate, the Muslim.

Hi Mercia. I have heard the muslims use matthew 21:43 as saying the kingdom of God had been taken from the jews and given to them and thus God allowed them to build that nice pretty looking Gold Dome in Jerusalem.

After all, God did bless Ishmael and said He would also make him into a Great Nation. How do you or Islam view Ishmael and his nation in prophecy as not much is said about him in most of the OT. Thanks.

Genesis 17:20 "And as for Ishmael,["God will hear"] I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation...... 26 in this self-same day hath Abraham been circumcised, and Ishmael his son;

Thus, an unsolvable problem came into being. The Arabs claim, because Ishmael was the firstborn of Abram, the Promised Land is theirs. The Jews believe that the Promised Land is theirs, as God's covenant was not with Ishmael but with Isaac.

Matthew 21:43 `Because of this I say to YOU, that the reign of God shall be Taken From YOU [Nation of the jews], and given to a Nation[Nation of Ishmael/Islam"???] bringing forth its fruit;

John 11:48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation." [this was indeed fulfilled, unfortunately for the jews]

Matt 23: 37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing! 38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate/a wilderness;

Edited by InChristAlways, 20 November 2005 - 12:05 AM.

[He-man]

InChristAlways, on Nov 19 2005, 03:47 PM, said:

Mercia2, on Aug 15 2005, 10:52 AM, said:

Quote

"An animal will come and call people back to Islam." [A partial description of this animal is that it is very hairy, so much so that one will not be able to tell its front from its rear (Arabic: 'Dab-ba'). Reference to this animal is mentioned in the Qur'an.]

Sounds like Esau to me.

We Christians follow Abel/Jacob/Israel, we make the animal sacrifice and kill the beast within. It is called being born again, and dying to that animlistic nature. This is the acceptable sacrifice that Cain refused to make before God, he refused to sacrifice the image/character of the "beast" within (and make that acceptable animal sacrifice), unlike Abel and Jacob who became born again when he received his new name and became Israel.

Esau is the hairy animal man after the flesh not the spirit, the natural man, the unregenerate, the Muslim.

Hi Mercia. I have heard the muslims use matthew 21:43 as saying the kingdom of God had been taken from the jews and given to them and thus God allowed them to build that nice pretty looking Gold Dome in Jerusalem.

After all, God did bless Ishmael and said He would also make him into a Great Nation. How do you or Islam view Ishmael and his nation in prophecy as not much is said about him in most of the OT. Thanks.

Genesis 17:20 "And as for Ishmael,["God will hear"] I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation...... 26 in this self-same day hath Abraham been circumcised, and Ishmael his son;

Thus, an unsolvable problem came into being. The Arabs claim, because Ishmael was the firstborn of Abram, the Promised Land is theirs. The Jews believe that the Promised Land is theirs, as God's covenant was not with Ishmael but with Isaac.

Matthew 21:43 `Because of this I say to YOU, that the reign of God shall be Taken From YOU [Nation of the jews], and given to a Nation[Nation of Ishmael/Islam"???] bringing forth its fruit;

John 11:48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation." [this was indeed fulfilled, unfortunately for the jews]

Matt 23: 37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing! 38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate/a wilderness;

You both need to read the whole thing and not just a few passages which fit your conclusions. The following examples explain your shortened versions.

Quote

You say "I have heard the muslims use matthew 21:43 as saying the kingdom of God had been taken from the jews and given to them and thus God allowed them to build that nice pretty looking Gold Dome in Jerusalem."

Ge 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Gen 25:12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham’s son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah’s handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.


Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Jer 41:11 But when Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the captains of the forces that were with him, heard of all the evil that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah had done,
1) Jer 41:15 But Ishmael the son of Nethaniah escaped from Johanan with eight men, and went to the Ammonites.
05983 Nwme `Ammown am-mone' AV-Ammon 90, Ammonites + 01121 13, Ammonites 2; 105
1) a people dwelling in Transjordan descended from Lot through Ben-ammi

Quote

You say:Thus, an unsolvable problem came into being. The Arabs claim, because Ishmael was the firstborn of Abram, the Promised Land is theirs. The Jews believe that the Promised Land is theirs, as God's covenant was not with Ishmael but with Isaac.

Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Ge 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Mt 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
De 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Jn 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.Ne 1:8 Remember, I beseech thee, the word that thou commandedst thy servant Moses, saying, If ye transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations:

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house (Christ) is left unto you desolate. Da 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Lu 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

[InChristAlways]

Quote

Matthew 21:43 `Because of this I say to YOU, that the reign of God shall be Taken From YOU [Nation of the jews], and given to a Nation[All of Israel in Christ]] bringing forth its fruit;

John 11:48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation." [this was indeed fulfilled, unfortunately for the jews]

Matt 23: 37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing! 38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate/a wilderness;

Revelation 11:1 And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying, `Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it; 2 and the court that is without the sanctuary CAST OUT OUTSIDE, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall tread down forty-two months;

Quote

You both need to read the whole thing and not just a few passages which fit your conclusions. The following examples explain your shortened versions.

Hi He-man. I did get them to look at revelation as that event of God taking the temple and city from the jews in the first century. Kind of hard to explain to them that the old "heaven and earth" of the Bible was the end of the OC Priesthood worshipping, but I can still see why they feel Jerusalem belongs to both the muslims and Israelites but in essence it belongs to God as does all of creation.
Christians already have a 100 different ways of looking at revelation and unfortunately the jewish religion doesn't believe in the NT or Revelation but I may try and get Islam to look at it more closely, but it would help if the Churches would also look at more closely as the final consummation of Israel/Judah of the "flesh"bringing both Nations of Israel and Judah together under One King, Jesus Christ our Lord.

And trust me, I will not tell them the Catholic church is the one in revelation!!!! Amen

Quote

2 Corinthians 5:17 so that if any one [is] in Christ--[he is] a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.

Matthew 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled [#1096]

Reve 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done/fulfilled!"[#1096] Revelation 21:5 And He who is sitting upon the throne said, `Lo, new I make all things; and He saith to me, `Write, because these words are true and stedfast;' [just as God promised Israel in the OT bringing in a New Thing]

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the "world/inhabited land" as a witness to all the nations, and then the end[#5056] will come.

Revelation 2:26 "And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end[#5056], to him I will give power over the nations --

Quote

Matthew 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers. tou <3588> {OF THE} aiwnoV <165>

Reve 14: 14 And I saw, and lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle; 15 and another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary .... 16 and he who is sitting upon the cloud did put forth his sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Btw. Do you view Jeremiah 31 [link below] as being fulfilled for Israel/Judah as shown in revelation?
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/...?showtopic=7336

Edited by InChristAlways, 20 November 2005 - 07:14 PM.