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[InChristAlways]

Mercia2

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Its a long gradual process of realisation that the OT talks of literal/natural things but at the very least typologically refers in almost every instance to spiritual things. And when you read some prophetic books and battles the symbollism (see below) is so rife its IMPOSSIBLE to read them as natural battles unless you are ignorant of the symbollism.

Once you realise that trees = men, mountains = governments, horses = teachers, sun = spiritual light, moon = natural light and chariots = beliefs, blindness = spiritual blindness, drunkness = spiritual insanity, beasts = carnal men without knowledge, harlots = unfaithful men of God without knowledge, birds = angels, serpents = natural man close to the earth - its simply impossible to read prophetic books like Isaiah, Ezekiel etc literally. As these books are full of the above symbols. Infact its almost every word!

And then to cap it all of, we are told those who are making war against Zion are SHEPHARDS! Its so obvious ALL these natural wars are typological of spiritual warfare you have to seriously delude yourself to maintain a literal reading of these texts!

Tell me this - did Jesus evolve out of the ltieral sense of the old testament OR THE SPIRITUAL/typological sense?

And then just to cement the fact the above is so, the Lord comes along (the SPIRIUAL OR HIDDEN sense of the OT made flesh) = and the first thing he does is show the Exodus story is a SPIRITUAL ALLEGORY for overcoming the carnal mind, and that natural weapons like the sword in his mouth, rerpesents the spiritual weapons of God, and that wine represents the spirit, and that bread represents spiritual food. I mean I could go on and on and on.

In other words Colter. NATURAL THINGS represent SPIRITUAL THINGS in the Bible.
natural bread = spiritual food
natural sword = spiritual sword
natural wine = spritual wine
EVERYTHING NATURAL is used as a symbol for what it represents spiritually.

Where does it say in the OT the Jesus son of Mary is the Messiah, where does it say in Revelation 17 that the pope is the antiChrist, that the woman is the Church of Rome, where does it say in the Old Testament that the Egyptian story in Genesis was an allegory, where does it say in the Old Testament that Egypt represents the flesh?

If your going to take that attitude Fortigurn then you will remain in a state of ignorance. How you someone like you EVER have worked out from Bible typology and the spirtual sense of the OT messiah prophecies that Jesus was the Messiah if you lived in OT times?
Would you not be going about saying "Jesus is not the Messiah" becasue it says he will free the Jews from captivity (and they were under occupation to Rome), when it rather was talking in SPIRITUAL TERMS.

The Bible speaks in spiritual terms Fortigurn, please stop trying to interpret it naturally.

Hi. This was taken from a post of Mercia2 and I found it pretty interesting. Rarely do I find others looking at the symbology of the bible in such a symbolic way.
Hey Mercia 2, are you still on the forum and if so, how would you like to help me out with Daniel 11 with reference to the 70 weeks, Olivet Discourse, Ezekiel 39 and revelation?
Your analogy of the SHEPERDS[aka "PRIESTS"] making war against Zion is right on as the King of the North appears to be a really evil "Shepherd/Priest".

Ezekiel 21:25 'Now to you, O profane, wicked prince of Israel, whose day has come, whose iniquity [shall] end, 26 'thus says the Lord GOD: "Remove the turban, and take off the crown; Nothing [shall remain] the same. Exalt the humble, and humble the exalted. 27 Overthrown, overthrown, I will make it overthrown! It shall be no [longer,] Until He comes whose right it is, And I will give it [to Him."] '

Zech 11:15 And the LORD said to me, "Next, take for yourself the implements of a foolish Shepherd. 16 "For indeed I will raise up a shepherd in the land [who] will not care for those who are cut off, nor seek the young, nor heal those that are broken, nor feed those that still stand. But he will eat the flesh of the fat and tear their hooves in pieces. 17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd, Who leaves the flock! A sword [shall be] against his arm And against his right eye; His arm shall completely wither, And his right eye shall be totally blinded."

Jeremiah 50:5 They shall ask the way to Zion, With their faces toward it, [saying,] 'Come and let us join ourselves to the LORD [In] a perpetual covenant [That] will not be forgotten.' 6 " My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away [on] the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place.

PM me if you are still posting. Thanks.

http://newjerusalemm...s.com/index.php?

Edited by InChristAlways, 27 May 2005 - 04:34 AM.

[Mercia2]

Yes, just back today, so you found me at the right time.
Although I am caught up in a debate with around 15 atheists on the AOL 'atheist messageboard' at present and I have had a few recent conversions on their (thanks be to God) so I will pop back shortly....

Ezek 39 is entirely symbolic, it uses already revealed symbols and relates to the saints convicting the evil works of the flesh (to consume the flesh of mighty men) etc, its like consuming the flesh of Jesus in reverse, to convict them of their words.

The "north" is itself probably symbolic as Israels enemies always seem to be from the north (i.e Babylon). So typologically the Church (spiritual Israel) has to fear the symbolic "king of the north", which is clearly the king of typological Babylon, i.e the same one who is king of typological Babylon in (Rev 17) - the popes of Rome.

As for Zech 11-14, it does seem to be both symbolic of the Church (and possibly also natural Israel), obviously some of it refers to Christ, but in Zech 14 it is worth remembering that a "horse" or a battle horse is symbolic for a teacher of the Word (whether good or bad) that is going out to do [spiritual] battle; “I will cut off the HORSE from Jerusalem, and He shall speak peace to the gentiles" (Zech ix.10); Jesus did not cut off literal horses but the proud and carnal teachers (the Pharisees), and these empower chariots which are beliefs/doctrine/ideology.

Remember that the "bow", the "sword" the "breastplate" of faith are now all (spiritual weapons), and that is why the battle in Isaiah for Israel is a battle of shephards for the Truth. The Egyptian shephards (natural man) verses the Israelie shephards (spiritual man). As one draws a bow, so one draws falsities or truth from the Word, "they bend their tounge like a BOW for lies, and not for truth" (Jer. 9:3). "And he that sat on him had a bow"; "Behold, I will break the BOW of Elam, the (chief of their might)" (Jeremiah xlix. 35). A bow signifies (in this sense) falsities drawn from the Word, as one draws the bow, just as one who has the Word draws a truth or falisty from the Word, and as one fires a bow, so he who is sitting on this horse, fires such falsities (drawn) from the Word, that are conseqeuntly fired at the world, "the wicked bent their BOW…that they may privaily SHOOT at the upright in heart" (Ps. 11:2). The same is signified (typologically) and prophetically by the great battles involving the "the horses" of Babylon coming against those that also symbolise the Church in the OT.

The sword of the Spirit, and the breastplate of faith. Old Testament books that use this symbolism are almost purely symbolic in this typological sense. I know the literalists dont like it, but God wants us to look at the (internals) of the Word, just as He does the internals of man "do not look on things as to their outward appearance", thus the Bible (teaches us) how to (perceive) in a spiritual way. As the natural man perceives only the external/literal sense (of everything) - including the Word, and calls all else "foolishness" as he can neither see it, nor perceive it, according to the testimony of his senses.

Thus, the progression from a literalist understanding of the Bible, to a spiritual understanding of the Bible should mirror our spiritual progression from being natural (the natural man) to spiritual (the spiritual man). The natural man is always revealed as to his (perception), which is external and literalist. (See the serpent in Eden for the first of such lessons) - i.e man did not die naturally "THAT DAY", but died spiritually "that day". See also David in Ps 73, his understanding was based on the evidence he received at the level of his bodily senses (he perceived their were no pangs in death for the ungodly), but it was only when God enlightened him (that they were internally consumed in terrors) that he realised his perception and understanding based at the level of his bodily senses in which he trusted had deceived him, he said "so foolish was I, and IGNORANT, I was as a BEAST before you". Thus, the "beast" (natural man) the "man who is in honour but understands not" is the man that believes nothing that does not accord with his wisdom derived at the level of his bodily senses, and says all else is "foolishness" (1 Corin 2:13); and such a man can be revealed by his perception of Gods Word (whether it be literal/external or spiritual/internal). The former class are the "shephards that cannot understand", hence they did not understand the prophecies of the coming of Christ (as they interpretted them literally) and not symbolically/spiritually; to liberate one from the sins of the flesh (internal/symbolic) not literal captivity to Rome (external and foolish). "Therefore my people are gone into captivity because they have no knowledge." Isaiah 5:13. The Bible is a spiritual book, it talks about spiritual things using natural language. Its a test of perception.

Horses signify proud and carnal teachers (of the Word) who empower them -as horses empower chariots; "the EGYPTIANS are men and not God, their HORSES are FLESH and not spirit". The Bible symbolises men as animals/beasts as to their affections. So serpents are angels or men who are close to the affections of the earth (carnal), as a serpent is close to the earth, horses are proud [spiritual] battle beasts etc etc, hence the spiritual sense of the Old Testament made flesh said: "go into the world and preach the Gospel to EVERY CREATURE" (Mark 16:15). ); "rejoice and be glad, be not afraid, ye BEASTS OF MY FIELDS, for my pastures of the wilderness do spring" (Joel 2. 21-23); "ALL YE BEASTS OF THE FIELD...HIS WATCHMEN ARE BLIND, THEY ARE ALL IGNORANT, they are dumb DOGS they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber, YEA THEY ARE GREEDY DOGS" (Isa 55:9); "a man who is in honour but understands not is like a BEAST that perishes".

In the Word "horses" signify teachers, "Jehovah will make Judah a Godly HORSE"; "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, that biteth the HORSES HEELS so that his rider shall fall backwards, I have waited for thy salvation O Jehovah" (Gen xlix 17, 18). To be bitten by serpents is to be deceived by the lowest form of reasoning. "And I will cut off the HORSE from Jerusalem, and He shall speak peace to the gentiles" (Zech ix.10); "In that day I will smite EVERY HORSE with astonishment" (Zech xii, 4); "and will smite every HORSE OF THE PEOPLE with blindness". Those teachers who think of spiritual things carnally, or externally/materialistically (as that is how the natural man is imbued) are smitten with spiritual blindness. "O God of Jacob, both the chariot and the HORSE are cast into a deep sleep" (Ps ixxxvi.6). Symbolic sleep is the state of being unaware, "drunkenness" is poor spiritual perception and judgement, and vomit (the theological effect); "they also have erred through wine and through strong drink are out of the way, the priest and the prophet...they err in vision, they stumble in judgement. For the tables are full of vomit...so their is no place clean".

Do a search of my posts if you have time, for plenty more symbolism revealed.

Russell.

Edited by Mercia2, 27 May 2005 - 03:11 PM.

[Mercia2]

One might notice that there is a great curse built into scriptural teachings taken literally that come in the form of parables and paradoxes. Yet, this curse is also a great blessing. Natural man, who filters everything through the outward senses, rarely looks beyond the literal meanings. Outward meanings are often erroneous and are said to be carnal, sensual (of the worldly senses), or profane.

However, one eventually understands that these too are a great blessing. One reason is because these profane understandings provide the enmity (dissatisfaction) that ultimately lead one to search for things deeper. If one could find satisfaction in the profane, then one would never seek the spiritual.

“FOR IN (THAT DAY) YOU EAT OF IT YOU SHALL SURELY DIE.” (Gen 2:17); the serpent said “you will not surely die” (that day), and if we perceive Gods Words (the Bible) naturally/externally then Satan was the one that told the truth, and God was the one that lied, as Adam did not die “that day” but lived another 800 years.
“And you, being dead in your sins . . . hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses” (Colossians 2:13). Paul describes spiritual death as “being alienated from the life of God” in Ephesians 4:18, thus they spiritually died "that day" when they rebelled against the Divine Will (sinned).

Embedded within what may be called the "hidden" teachings within parables and allegories, there is often a very obvious call to carnal man to wake from his slumber. These often come in the form of a paradox. A paradox is an idea which appears to be in contradiction on the surface, but in harmony at deeper levels of understanding. Most are familiar with such paradoxes as "… whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life… shall find it." (Matthew 16:25)

In a paradox, there is an obvious and apparent contradiction that is difficult to ignore, even for the most profane of individuals. The contradiction is like a voice calling one to wake up. It is meant to get one to exclaim like Nicodemus of old: "How can these things be?"

Thus, carnal man cannot rightfully claim that he missed the deeper symbolic teachings that lie behind the parables or allegories. The apparent contradictions of paradoxical statements are more than sufficient to call to those who, as word-worshipers, never look past the literal in anything. Inasmuch as it is impossible to reconcile paradoxes without resorting to the deeper symbolical meanings, one cannot rightfully remain in a (false) state of profane literalism. Yes, nothing is hidden from us, but that which we hide from ourselves.

"Follow Me; and allow the dead to bury their own dead." (Matthew 8:22) - (How can physically dead people bury anyone?). The biblical understanding of death is seperation, and on that day they were separated from the prescence of God. Paul describes it as "being alienated from the life of God" in Ephesians 4:18. (To be separated from life is the same as being spiritually dead.) Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance. Adam exercised his own free will and chose to rebel. Adam's sin caused him to go from being spiritually alive to being spiritually dead. Thousands of years later, the Apostle Paul said in Romans 7:9 "For I was alive (spiritually innocent) without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died (spiritually)". Paul was spiritually innocent and in his own words "alive" from the time that he was born until the age of accountability and reason, until he knew he had intentionally disobeyed the Divine Will. This is what natural man does (hide from God), and God hides from him. "your iniquities have separated you between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear" Isaiah 59:2. So the very first thing the Bible teaches us, is to not look at the external/natural understanding of Gods Word, but the symbolic/spiritual MEANING of them - (they spiritual died "that day"), not naturally. A natural understand of the Bible (Words of God) is the deception of the serpent.

So the natural man, represented by Adam is hiding in the garden, is isolated from God. When we are born again, the spiritual death is reversed and we once more have a personal relationship with God as Adam did before the fall. Before salvation, we are dead (spiritually), but Jesus gives us life. "And you hath he quickened [made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1). This is spiritual ressurection. "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ" (Ephesians 2:5). "And you, being dead in your sins . . . hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13). So the very first lesson we are taught by paradox in the bible is to look for the (spiritual sense) in Gods Words, as the literal sense (is the deception of Satan); as it is also with the Catholic mass.

"The one who lives in carnal pleasure is dead while they yet live" 1Tim 5:6, this is spirtual death. Submission to the dictates of the carnal mind always brings spiritual death because it draws us to live for materialistic affections and not spiritual affections (as represented by their affections being drawn to all that tree represents) which is in opposition to the Divine Will. The tree that brings spiritual death in Eden is "good for food and pleasant to the eyes and to be desired to make on wise" = the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh - the pride of life!"; For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. I John 2:16; Gen 3:6.

So they did not NATURALLY die that day, they spiritually died THAT day and were cast from the presence of God. The Bible MUST be understood spiritually (internally) or we have been beguiled by the serpent (as the natural man always is).

Edited by Mercia2, 27 May 2005 - 03:16 PM.

[InChristAlways]

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"The one who lives in carnal pleasure is dead while they yet live" 1Tim 5:6, this is spirtual death. Submission to the dictates of the carnal mind always brings spiritual death because it draws us to live for materialistic affections and not spiritual affections (as represented by their affections being drawn to all that tree represents) which is in opposition to the Divine Will. The tree that brings spiritual death in Eden is "good for food and pleasant to the eyes and to be desired to make on wise" = the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh - the pride of life!"; For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. I John 2:16; Gen 3:6.

So they did not NATURALLY die that day, they spiritually died THAT day and were cast from the presence of God. The Bible MUST be understood spiritually (internally) or we have been beguiled by the serpent (as the natural man always is).

Hi Mercia. Good post!!!
I suppose that is why I see the white throne and 6th seal as the same event. The ones being judged "standing" are spiritually "dead" outside of Christ.

Note the ones standing have not been "raised". Both visions involve seeing the "Face of Him" who sits on the throne. Just thought that was interesting.

Reve 6: 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

reve 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged

Edited by InChristAlways, 17 June 2005 - 09:37 PM.