[quote name='gabe' date='Apr 18 2005, 06:44 AM'] G: [quote] This verse has the Lord God giving a command and warning Adam and Eve of the consequences of breaking the command. Implied by this command, I'd reckon we agree, is that God desired a perfect life for Adam and Eve. [/quote]
F: [quote]Yes, on His terms.[/quote]
I would think that I agree but, just to be sure, what exactly do you mean by "on His terms?" [/quote]
Sorry it's been so long Gabe, things have been busy around here.
What I mean by 'on His terms' is that God did not unconditionally guarantee to Adam and Eve that everything would work out well. He stated that things would work out well under certain conditions which He had determined.
[quote]G: [quote]But why should the breaking of the command and the resulting curse be incompatible with a final state of restoration in which God's desire ultimately comes to pass? [/quote]
F: [quote]It isn't - given that Adam and Eve repented and were re-accpeted by God, there is every likelihood that they will ultimately be restored.[/quote]
It appears, then, that oru disagreement lies in the fact that you believe that God has both temporary and eternal desires. Or is my impression incorrect?[/quote]
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. God has eternal desires, and makes temporary accommodations.
[quote]F: [quote]No.[/quote]
Why not? Do you believe that God improvises as events unravel?[/quote]
No. I believe His plans take into account the events which He foreknows will occur.
[quote]F1: [quote]It is my contention that the 'all' here is a hyperbolic 'all'. It doesn't matter to me whether this refers to the time before or after the destruction of the wicked. [/quote]
G: [quote]What would be the function of such hyperbole? [/quote]
F2: [quote]
It's a literary device for emphasis.[/quote]
Emphasis on what, precisely?[/quote]
Emphasis on the great authority given to Christ, and the height of his exaltation.
[quote]G: [quote]Why not take verses 9-11 literally? [/quote]
F: [quote]Because it cannot be done without breaking other passages of Scripture.[/quote]
What passages have you got in mind?[/quote]
Passages which speak of Christ as always subordinate to God, and God sovereign over all things including Christ, as I have said.
[quote]G: [quote]What proof have you got for this assertion? [/quote]
F: [quote]It's the same hyperbolic phraseology which is found all through the Bible....[/quote]
What specific hyperbolic phraseology do you have in mind? I asked for proof, could you provide such?[/quote]
Well you know as well as I do the hyperbolic use of 'all'. But if you want some examples:
[quote]Genesis 41:
56 While
the famine was over all the face of the earth, Joseph opened the storehouses and sold grain to the Egyptians. The famine was severe throughout the land of Egypt.[/quote]
This is not a global famine.
[quote]Exodus 9:
6 And the Lord did this
on the next day; all the livestock of the Egyptians died, but of the Israelites’ livestock not one died![/quote]
All of the livestock of the Egyptians did not die.
[quote]Romans 3:
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.[/quote]
Christ did not sin nor fall short of the glory of God.
[quote]Revelation 5:
13 Then
I heard every creature—in heaven, on earth, under the earth, in the sea, and all that is in them—singing:
“To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever!”[/quote]
John did not hear every creature in the universe and on earth - both in the water and under the earth - singing these words.
[quote]G: [quote]What do you consider to be the context of verse 9, and for what reasons? [/quote]
F: [quote]Verse 9 has Christ being exalted by God. That is the context. [/quote]
Correct.[/quote]
Great.
[quote]F: [quote]My reason for considering this is that verse 9 says that Christ has been exalted by God. [/quote]
You don't say... :shades: [/quote]
That's a yes?
[quote]F: [quote]Verse 10 cannot break verse 9 - Christ is exalted by God, not above God.[/quote]
Of course, but this point is entirely irrelevant to my case. My position, as you ought to be well aware of, is that "all" refers to all humanity.[/quote]
I'm not objecting to your case here, I am answering your question.
[quote]G: [quote]Agreed, although the Bible also reveals that God is Perfect. [/quote]
F: [quote]Yes it does. But as I have demonstrated, it also reveals that God - in order to be consistent with His character - sometimes acts in a manner which is not His desire.[/quote]
Where did you demonstrate this?[/quote]
In the passage I quoted from Ezekiel.
[quote]What is it in God's character which requires Him to sometimes act in a manner which is not desirous to Him?[/quote]
Both His justice and His mercy.
[quote]G: [quote]And what do you mean by sovereign? [/quote]
F: [quote]I mean He has all power - He can act indepenently of anyone else.[/quote]
What then is the function of the word
CHAPHETS?[/quote]
I'm happy with Strong's:
[quote]02654 Upx chaphets khaw-fates’
a primitive root; TWOT-712,713; v
AV-delight 39, please 14, desire 9, will 3, pleasure 3, favour 2, like 2, moveth 1, would 1, at all 1; 75
1) to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with
1a) (Qal)
1a1) of men
1a1a) to take pleasure in, delight in
1a1b) to delight, desire, be pleased to do
1a2) of God
1a2a) to delight in, have pleasure in
1a2b) to be pleased to do
2) to move, bend down
2a) (Qal) to bend down[/quote]
How does that sit wit you?
[quote]What stylistic, contextual, and grammatical evidences do you have which backs your dismissal of the face-value of the text?[/quote]
I am not dismissing the face value of the text. The face value of the text says that God does whatever He pleases - a phrase which means 'He can do as He likes'. It does not say that all He does is what He takes pleasure in, nor that He only does that which pleases Him.
[quote]G: [quote]According to your view, did it please God to create the billions of people that would finally be lost forever?[/quote]
F: [quote]You're equivocating. [/quote]
Equivocating on what, exactly?[/quote]
You are reading the passage as if it says 'God only does that which please Him', or 'God only does that which pleases Him'. It does not say that.
[quote]F: [quote]
This verse does not say that God only does things which please him
The phrase 'whatever He pleases' is an expression of His sovereignty.[/quote]
I'm waiting for proof. I cannot simply take someone's word for proof.[/quote]
It's like the English phrase 'I do what I like'. You don't say that to mean 'I only do things which I like', or 'I don't do things which I don't like'. You use it to say 'I am free to act independently'.
The same phrase occurs elsewhere in Scripture both of God and kings with precisely this meaning, so it's not as if we're guessing here:
[quote]Psalm 135:
5 Yes, I know
the Lord is great, and our sovereign Master is superior to all gods.
6
He does whatever he pleases in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all the ocean depths.[/quote]
[quote]Ecclesiastes 8:
3 Do not rush out of the king’s presence in haste—do not delay when the matter is unpleasant,
for he can do whatever he pleases.[/quote]
[quote]Jonah 1:
14 So they cried out to the Lord, “Oh, please, Lord, don’t let us die on account of this man! Don’t hold us guilty of shedding innocent blood.69 After all, you, Lord,
have done just as you pleased.”[/quote]
[quote]F: [quote]As I have shown from Ezekiel, it did not please God to punish the wicked with death, but He did so.[/quote]
You have shown no such thing.[/quote]
I invite your comment on these passages:
[quote] Ezekiel 33:
10 “And you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what you have said,: “Our rebellious acts and our sins weigh us down, and we are wasting away because of them. How then can we live?”’
11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord,
I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but prefer that the wicked change his behavior and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil deeds!
Why should you die, O house of Israel?’
12 “And you, son of man, say to your people, ‘The righteousness of the godly will not deliver him if he rebels. As for the wicked, his sin will not make him stumble if he turns from it. The godly will not be able to live by his righteousness if he sins.’
13 Suppose I tell the righteous that he will certainly live, but he becomes confident in his godliness and commits iniquity. None of his righteous deeds will be remembered;
because of the iniquity he has committed he will die.[/quote]
You will note that the word 'pleasure' there is the same under discussion in the other passages. God is saying here that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but He assures Israel that He will indeed punish the wicked with death if they do not repent - despite the fact that He does not wish to.
[quote]F: [quote]It didn't please Him to kill hundreds of thousands of people in the flood, but He did so. [/quote]
Actually, He does all that He pleases.[/quote]
He does. But not all that He does pleases Him.
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