Fortigurn, on Jan 30 2009, 05:15 PM, said:
Asyncritus, on Jan 31 2009, 01:07 AM, said:
Re 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Clearly that isn't referring to 70 AD, since that's not what happened in 70 AD. In 70 AD the entire temple was utterly destroyed, not just the outer court.
Quote
The Olivet prophecy is one with dual fulfilments. It was fulfilled UP TO A POINT in AD70, but the final and full fulfilment is yet to come.
Proof please.
<P>Hello Fortigurn, and all but how are you? and about your reply posted above, did you read the below full article esp. where it has been quoted below about the title of Ariel Sharon’s Gamble? and are you aware of its context happenings?
Ariel Sharon’s Gamble:
Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel, whom I have referred to as “God’s Bulldozer,” in the past, has had a strategy in mind for dealing with the Palestinians, and hopefully, to bring peace to the Middle East. Whether he knows it or not, He has been USED by God to achieve God’s purposes in the region, and to fulfill prophecy!
Sharon has been plunging down the “Road Map to Peace,” outlined by President George Bush, and backed up by the European Union, Russia, and the United Nations. Pulling Jewish settlers out of the Gaza strip was just the beginning. In doing this, he was losing the support of his own party, the Likkud. So he resigned from that political party, which he was instrumental in founding in 1973, and has formed his own new party, called “Kadima.” Many members of the Labor party, and unhappy members of the Likkud, have joined with him, including Shimon Peres. New elections will take place toward the end of March, 2006.
Sharon intended to fully support George Bush’s “Road Map” and to pull Israel out of much of the land of Judea and Samaria (the “West Bank” of the Jordan river). This will please world leaders and the United States and placate world opinion somewhat.
Sharon was willing to give up 90 percent of the West Bank, allow a Palestinian state to be formed on Israel’s borders, and seemingly wants to retain Jerusalem and Jewish settlements under Israeli sovereignty. However, there appears to be a secret agenda at work, where Jerusalem’s holy places may be placed under the jurisdiction of the Vatican, or some sort of divided authority. These negotiations, whether Sharon realized it or not, will lead to the Jews being allowed to rebuild the Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem!
But with his recent devastating strokes, Sharon has been taken out of the picture. The future of the Kadima party is in limbo and its survival in great doubt. Benjamin Netanyahu may well become the next Israeli Prime Minister! Will he follow in the footsteps of Arik Sharon? He has been moving more to the “center” in Israeli politics, to cull more votes. He has had experience, is a former Prime Minister, and is probably going to become the next one. It is very likely he, too, will follow the “roadmap to peace” or some version thereof, in order to please the United States and reach an accommodation n the Middle East viz a viz the Palestinian state.
Notice what Bible prophecy says on this issue!
Prophesied – a Jerusalem DIVIDED!
Although Sharon said he intends to keep Jerusalem under Israeli jurisdiction, this may be only a ploy to keep Jewish voters pleased, until the final decision must be made. Netanyahu and Sharon are practical men – politicians – and not necessarily “devout.” They are not particularly religious men.
Yet Biblical prophecy says in two places that end-time Jerusalem is going to become DIVIDED!
In the book of Revelation, chapter 11, the apostle John, looking into our day, is sees a Temple existing in Jerusalem. He is told, “Come and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for IT IS GIVEN TO THE NATIONS, and they will trample over the holy city for forty two months” (Rev.11:1-2, NRSV).
Also, in Zechariah’s prophecy in the Old Testament, God says, “For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses looted and the women raped; HALF the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city” (Zechariah 14:1-2).
In 1993, Shimon Peres, on behalf of Israel, made an agreement with the Vatican to give it control over the old city, East Jerusalem, and the Temple Mount. The Oslo Plan is to make Jerusalem an international city under the control of the Vatican. Moshe Katsav, the Israeli president, is currently negotiating to sell Mount Zion to the Vatican, which would include control over part of David’s tomb.
On February 15, 2000, Pope John Paul II signed a covenant with Palestinian Yasser Arafat calling for the internationalization of Jerusalem.
The Palestinians cry, “No Jerusalem, no peace.” The Palestinian Authority, European Union, United States, all want a city divided. Finance Minister Ehud Olmert, Sharon’s top deputy, has on more than one occasion said that Israel would have to relinquish the dream of an eternally united Jerusalem under Jewish sovereignty.
Today, Jerusalem is indeed disputed – the hottest issue on the table. It is a “bone of contention” to all the nations. Reuters News, of December 16, 2005, claims, “Half of Israelis favour deal on Jerusalem.” The Israelis themselves are equally divided, says the poll – 49% for and 49% against. The fate of Jerusalem has always been one of the toughest, thorniest problems facing any peace negotiations.
It appears very likely that some quid pro quo arrangement will be agreed upon by the nations to divide Jerusalem and the Temple Mount – whether all are in agreement to do this yet – or not. The Temple will be rebuilt, and part of the Temple Mount will be given to the control of the nations.
Despite the political turmoil, there are already far advanced preparations underway to restore the Temple services and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. Over 200 priests are presently in training in Yeshivas in Jerusalem. Almost all the Temple implements have been fabricated, including the royal blue cloak of the high priest with the techelet blue dye from the marine snails used in ancient times. Ground penetrating radar is being used to locate the exact foundations of the Temple.<P>
and from your same quote below have you read this article about 70 ad?
<P>
Fortigurn, on Jan 30 2009, 05:15 PM, said:
Asyncritus, on Jan 31 2009, 01:07 AM, said:
Re 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Clearly that isn't referring to 70 AD, since that's not what happened in 70 AD. In 70 AD the entire temple was utterly destroyed, not just the outer court.
Quote
The Olivet prophecy is one with dual fulfilments. It was fulfilled UP TO A POINT in AD70, but the final and full fulfilment is yet to come.
Proof please.
From this Below article:
<a href="http://www.triumphpro.com/end-of-days-and-final-countdown.htm"> 2012 and the
“END OF DAYS” The Final Countdown to the Messiah? </a>
Understood by the Ancients:
The knowledge of God’s 7000-year Plan is not a new revelation from God to His Church during this End-Time age. In fact, this prophetic knowledge was known and understood by the early Church of God, during the first century and thereafter.
Says the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge:
“The early fathers most commonly looked for the second advent at
the end of 6000 years of the world’s history” (vol.VII, p.376).
The Epistle of Barnabas, written about 200 A.D., actually expounded on the concept of the 7000-year plan of God, stating that the “end” would occur at the point of 6000 years from the creation of mankind. States this ancient document of the early church period:
“Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; ‘And God
made the works of his hands in six days, and He ended on the seventh
day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.’ Give heed, children, what
this meaneth, ‘He ended in six days.’ He meaneth this, that IN SIX
THOUSAND YEARS THE LORD SHALL BRING ALL THINGS
TO AN END; for the day with Him signifieth a thousand years; and
this He himself beareth me witness, saying, ‘Behold, the day of the
Lord shall be as a THOUSAND YEARS.’ Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.
‘And He rested on the seventh day.’ This he meaneth; when His Son
shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall
judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars,
then shall He truly rest on the seventh day” (Epistle of Barnabus, chap.
15, The Apostolic Fathers, pp.151-152).
Early Christians expected the age of mankind’s self rule to come to an end, to be replaced by the Messianic Kingdom, after a period of 6,000 years. The “Epistle of Barnabus” bears eloquent testimony to this historical fact.
Irenaeus, who lived from A.D. 120 to 202, was a disciple of Polycarp, one of God’s true servants in Asia Minor, who himself was a disciple of the apostle John. Polycarp sent Pothus into Celtic Gaul at an early date to establish the region, and he settled in Lyons, when Irenaeus joined him, having been his fellow-pupil under Polycarp. In his battle against raging heresies which were inundating the church at that time, Irenaeus wrote his Against Heresies. In book 1, chapter xxviii, 3, we read:
“For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand
years shall it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says:
‘Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment.
And God brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that
He had made; and God rested upon the seventh day from all His works.’
This is an account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy
of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; and
in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that
they will come to and END at the sixth thousand year” (Ante-Nicene
Fathers, vol.1, p.557).
Before the time of Christ, the Jews also understood that the Messiah would come after 6000 years of human history.
The Encyclopedia Britannica, eleventh edition, concerning the Talmud, states:
“The view most frequently expressed there . . . is that the Messianic
kingdom will last for one thousand (some said two thousand) years.
‘In six days God created the world, on the seventh He rested. But a
day of God is equal to a thousand years (Ps.90:4). Hence the WORLD
WILL LAST FOR SIX THOUSAND YEARS of toil and labor; then
will come one thousand years of Sabbath rest for the people of God in
the kingdom of the Messiah.’ This idea must have already been very
common in the first century before Christ” (“Millennium,” p.459).
The Jewish Encyclopedia goes into greater detail:
“The Perso-Babylonian world-year of twelve millenniums, however,
was transformed in Jewish eschatology into a world-week of seven
millenniums corresponding with the week of Creation. The verse,
‘A thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday’ (Ps.90:4) having
suggested the idea that the present world of toil is to be followed by
a Sabbatical millennium, ‘the world to come.’ Of these the six
millenniums were again divided, as in Parsism, into three periods: the
first 2000 years devoid of the law; the next 2000 years under the rule of
the law; and the last 2000 years preparing amid struggles and through
catastrophes for the rule of the Messiah” (“Eschatology,” The Jewish
Encyclopedia, V, p.211).
The “Messianic Era,” then, is the last 2,000 years of the cycle.
David Stern, in the Jewish New Testament Commentary, explains the deep roots of the six thousand year plan of God in ancient Judaism. In his commentary on II Peter, chapter 3:8-10, and the “day is a thousand year” principle, Stern writes:
“This idea, taken from Psalm 90:4 . . . has deep roots in Judaism, specifically in connection with dating the Messianic Era. A famous example is found in the Talmud, in Tractate Sanhedrin:
‘Rav Kattina said, “The world will exist for six thousand years, then for one
thousand it will be desolate, as it is said, ‘The Lord alone will be exalted in
that day’” (Isaiah 2:11). . . .
‘It has been taught in accordance with Rav Kattina, “Just as every seventh
year is a year of sh’mittah [letting the land lie fallow], so it is with the world:
one thousand years out of seven are to be fallow – as proved by the following
three texts taken together [in which the key word is “day”]: ‘The Lord alone
will be exalted in that day’ (Isa.2:11); ‘A psalm and song for the day of Shabbat’ (Psalm 91:1), meaning the day that is entirely Shabbat; and, ‘For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past’” (Psalm 90:4).
‘The school of Eliyahu [Elijah] teaches: “The world exists for six thousand
years – two thousand of them tohu [“void”]; two thousand, Torah; and two
thousand, the era of the Messiah. But because of our numerous iniquities
many of these years have been lost”’ (Sanhedrin 97a-97b).
Says Stern, “According to Jewish tradition, there were 2,000 years without Torah – spiritual tohu – between the creation of Adam and the time when Abraham, aged 52, began convincing people to worship the one true God.
“The second 2,000 years supposedly lasted from then until 172 years after the construction of the second Temple, that is, until 244 C.E. That was the year 4000 by the Jewish calendar, but no significant event in Jewish history took place then. However, biblical chronology has a number of uncertainties, so that not all agree that the Jewish calendar accurately dates the biblical beginning of creation. James Ussher, archbishop of Armagh, Ireland, writing in the 17th century, placed the creation according to Genesis at 4004 B.C.E., exactly 4000 years before Yeshua’s supposed birthdate.”
Stern goes on:
“Concerning the third 2,000 years, a footnote to this passage in the Soncino
English edition of the Talmud says, ‘Messiah will come within that period.
He should have come at the beginning of [it]; the delay is due to our sins.’
It should be obvious that the Messiah who ‘should have come at the beginning’
of the last 2,000-year period is in fact Yeshua, who did come then. The delay
is not of his coming but of our recognizing him, and this delay is indeed ‘due
to our sins’ . . .
“Yet, as Kefa [Peter] points out, there is a delay in his second coming; and
this is, in a different sense, ‘due to our sins’: The Lord is not slow in keeping
his promise . . . ; on the contrary, he is patient with you; for it is . . . his
purpose that everyone should turn back from his sins, literally, ‘that every-
one should come to repentance’ . . . .” (Jewish New Testament Commentary,
page 763-764).
Revising Chronology
David Stern said the Jews believe the second 2,000 year period supposedly lasted from Abraham, age 52, until 172 years after the destruction of the second Temple, that is, the year 244 A.D. (or C.E. as scholars put it, for “Common Era”). This, he says, was their year 4,000 from creation. This Jewish belief, however, is mistaken on many points. Supposedly, their calendar begins in 3760 B.C. Four thousand years from then would be:
4000
-3760 B.C.
240
+l (no year zero)
241 A.D.
Thus even from their own creation date, 4000 years would end in 241 A.D. – not 244 A.D. Secondly, the second Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. Add 172 years after the destruction of the second temple would bring us to 242 A.D. – still off by two years from 244 A.D.
Truly, however, nothing significant in Jewish history happened in any of those years! Either the prophecy was wrong – or they were wrong! The truth is, their calendar, which dates creation in 3760 B.C., begins 244 years after the true date of creation – 4004 B.C.
Calculating 4,000 years from the Biblical date of Creation, as shown in the Bible and by archbishop Ussher, the terminus would be 4 B.C. – the very year of the birth of Jesus Christ! (See our article, “When Was Jesus Born?”).
This also ties in with Abraham’s birth. The book of Jasher shows that he was born in 2056 B.C., so he would have been 52 years of age in precisely 2004 B.C. Dating the second period of 2,000 years from that time, when Torah began to be taught by Abraham, brings us to exactly 4 B.C. – the year of Messiah’s birth!
This post has been edited by firstthings1st.: 30 January 2009 - 07:42 PM
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