19 replies to this topic

[Lectron]

This thread has been prompted by

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scooter  Posted: Mar 14 2005, 06:00 PM   
   
Think so Adanac? Sometimes I think you havent a clue about the Bible, or what a person is allowed by G-D. Whatever, You, nor anyone else can pronounce it right, You just like to think you can.

I have seen this from others of the Jewish religion. Why not God like eveyone else??

[mattquarterstein]

I'd always been wondering about the use of "L-rd" and "G-d" .

I've seen a lot of protestants do it. Interestingly enough, I don't think I've ever seen a "J-sus" from a trinitarian poster who practises posting "L-rd" and "G-d"

[Adanac]

I can't think for the life of me why missing vowels out of a word is a sign of respect but every man to his own I suppose.

[Fortigurn]

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Writing the Name of God


Jews do not casually write any Name of God. This practice does not come from the commandment not to take the Lord's Name in vain, as many suppose. In Jewish thought, that commandment refers solely to oath-taking, and is a prohibition against swearing by God's Name falsely or frivolously (the word normally translated as "in vain" literally means "for falsehood").

Judaism does not prohibit writing the Name of God per se; it prohibits only erasing or defacing a Name of God. However, observant Jews avoid writing any Name of God casually because of the risk that the written Name might later be defaced, obliterated or destroyed accidentally or by one who does not know better.

The commandment not to erase or deface the name of God comes from Deut. 12:3. In that passage, the people are commanded that when they take over the promised land, they should destroy all things related to the idolatrous religions of that region, and should utterly destroy the names of the local deities. Immediately afterwards, we are commanded not to do the same to our God. From this, the rabbis inferred that we are commanded not to destroy any holy thing, and not to erase or deface a Name of God.

It is worth noting that this prohibition against erasing or defacing Names of God applies only to Names that are written in some kind of permanent form, and recent rabbinical decisions have held that writing on a computer is not a permanent form, thus it is not a violation to type God's Name into a computer and then backspace over it or cut and paste it, or copy and delete files with God's Name in them. However, once you print the document out, it becomes a permanent form. That is why observant Jews avoid writing a Name of God on web sites like this one or in newsgroup messages: because there is a risk that someone else will print it out and deface it.

Normally, we avoid writing the Name by substituting letters or syllables, for example, writing "G-d" instead of "God." In addition, the number 15, which would ordinarily be written in Hebrew as Yod-Heh (10-5), is normally written as Tet-Vav (9-6), because Yod-Heh is a Name.

Source.

[Dawn]

scooter, on Mar 17 2005, 12:42 AM, said:

Perhaps I can aide you on this one. The reason I, and any Jew dosent complete any name concerning G-D is because of respect mostly. Another reason is because if one writes the name in its entirety with no break in the letters, it cannot be erased as it is considered Holy. For instance the letters of his name is Y&H&V&H, And this is never combined to form one word as others do it. BTW, I am not Jewish, I do believe they are correct in many things. The one exception is whom Yeshua was and is.

As long as you (and Messianic Jews) don't think it adds one ounce to your righteousness in Christ, then I guess its OK. It is not a commandment of Christ.

[Dawn]

scooter, on Mar 17 2005, 12:54 AM, said:

For instance we as christians do many things that arent Biblical today. Take Tithing, You cannot tithe today because the Temple isnt standing. You can make love offerings, gifts and so forth, but you cannot tithe. The present day idea about tithing is a catholic instituted way to raise money to build churches. We, in the protestant movement have adopted it as a way to do the same, plus pay a pastor. But it isnt Biblical. The Levites and the Temple HAVE to be before a tithe is required. And Biblical tithing dosent include money except for the giving of Alms to the poor. The tithe is the first fruits of the harvest and livestock, which were also given out to the people after the Priests were taken care of in their daily needs.

PS: A tithe wasnt always a tenth, it sometimes, depending of the goodness of the giver was far more than a tenth.

Well the thing is scooter, when there was a Messianic Fellowship going about 30 miels from where I now live (its now folded) the "rabbi" there was BIG on tithing.

In fact, he even accused one of his congregants that the reason he was suffering so much back pain was because he wasn't tithing to the Messianic Fellowship (because the person with the back problem also went to church on a Sunday after having been to the Messianic Fellowship on the Saturday). May be the "rabbi" had done some sums, and found that the weekly "offering" of tithes didn't add up to the amount he thought it should have, and he was making a scape goat of the poor fellow with a bad back.

Witchcraft: that's what I call it. Manipulate, intimidate and dominate; through fear and legalism.

In fact, "witchcraft" was the verdict on the that Messianic Fellowship by a fellow Messianic Jew who went there once. He hated it.

[Dawn]

Lectron, on Mar 17 2005, 12:29 AM, said:

This thread has been prompted by

Quote

scooter  Posted: Mar 14 2005, 06:00 PM    
   
Think so Adanac? Sometimes I think you havent a clue about the Bible, or what a person is allowed by G-D. Whatever, You, nor anyone else can pronounce it right, You just like to think you can.

I have seen this from others of the Jewish religion. Why not God like eveyone else??

It's like a lot of things in Messianic Judaism: some people do it from pure motives I'm sure, but basically I believe it stems from Judaistic legalisms which are no longer necessary.

The worst motive for doing it is because it makes the person feel more "Jewish", the best motive is as scooter said: out of some kind of respect for the Name of God.

It's a pity Messianic Judaism hasn't respected God's Name more by not profaning it among the Gentiles through the silly schisms and petty laws they like to impose on themselves.

However, that sounds rather bitter: I don't mean to be really, just that my heart aches when nearly everyone I come into contact with who's been involved with Messianic Judaism has been left hurt and spiritually wounded.

[Dawn]

scooter, on Mar 17 2005, 04:10 PM, said:

G-D will do whatever is needed concerning this. I believe that All Israel will be saved.

Who are the branches that have been cut off then?

Are you universalist concerning Israel, but a non-universalist concerning Gentiles?

The Judge of all the earth will do right: there's no doubt in my mind about that. But for Jews under the Law, once they break one Law they've broken the lot and unless they have faith in Christ they are as lost as anyone else and will be judged according to their works on that Day?

The same with Gentiles: if a gentile who is not under Law does things which are according to the Law then it will be counted to them as righteousness on that Day at the Great White Throne.

However, having said all that: I do believe that Israel are the apple of God's eye and that He has a special love for them. He can break His own rules if He wants to!

[Dawn]

scooter, on Mar 17 2005, 06:19 PM, said:

I just believe that G-D must keep his promises to Israel, if he dosent, why would he remember us? We are grafted into Israel. Andit is stated, in both the old, and the new testaments that ALL Israel will be saved as it is written

So you believe all the cut off branches will be grafted back in again then?

What about Judas?

What about "secular" Jews? What about Uri Geller? What about the Cabbalists?

I really don't think "all" means every single Jew that ever lived on the earth surely?

[Lectron]

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dondawn  Posted: Mar 17 2005, 11:02 AM   
 

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(scooter @ Mar 17 2005, 12:42 AM)

Perhaps I can aide you on this one. The reason I, and any Jew dosent complete any name concerning G-D is because of respect mostly. Another reason is because if one writes the name in its entirety with no break in the letters, it cannot be erased as it is considered Holy. For instance the letters of his name is Y&H&V&H, And this is never combined to form one word as others do it. BTW, I am not Jewish, I do believe they are correct in many things. The one exception is whom Yeshua was and is. 

As long as you (and Messianic Jews) don't think it adds one ounce to your righteousness in Christ, then I guess its OK. It is not a commandment of Christ.

Well that's helped to shine a little light on a typically Jewish foible

It reminds me of the words of Jesus/Yeshua :

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity." Matt 23:23ff

[Lectron]

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scooter  Posted: Mar 17 2005, 08:40 PM   
 
  Look lectron, I cant help it if you dont know Jewish ways. They just happen to be the ones G-D gave them. You, as a non Jew are lucky they didnt recognise who Yeshua was, If they had, it would have been over a long time ago. Your faith is from the religion of Judaism, not methodism/baptist, or even Catholicism. So if you dislike what they believe, believe what you wish.

Scooter - you miss the point -- I presented Jesus' words not mine.


The history of the Pharisees and the Hasidim from whom they derived started, like so many sects, with the best of intentions, and Jesus by no means criticized all its precepts, he even upheld some of them, but he particularly showed that attention to detail ad absurdum leads to the focus being taken away from the important issue

..and I think that the overcare in not desecrating the Divine Title(s) may take the focus away from the most important desecration - claiming to be God's representative people yet showing behaviour at odds with the divine character - e.g lacking Justice, grace, and faith in dealing with our neighbour.

I believe intensely in Romans 11 but here the message is the same for both Jew & Gentile.

" ...by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you..."

or as it says in another place

" ... Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall..."

[Lectron]

Tho' I'd be glad to discuss further Romans 10 & 11 on a fresh thread.
In the meantime question whether the word all is ever qualified in the English language.