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Identifying Antichrist


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#1 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 03:30 PM

The identification of a future 'AntiChrist' by modern expositors of prophey who follow the 'Futurist' interpretation is interesting to read.

The following is a summary of the most commonly held beliefs. It will be recognised that these Futurist beliefs are popular among Christadelphians today also, and have been presented as fact by Christadelphians on this board.

Futurists say that AntiChrist will make a sudden appearance:

The way in which this dictator is going to step onto the stage of history will be dramatic. Overnight he will become the byword of the world. He is going to be distinguished as supernatural...

Lindsey, Hal, "The Late Great Planet Earth," Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, 1970, page 108


Scripture says Christ will appear suddenly:

Revelation 16:
15 (Look! I will come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays alert and does not lose his clothes so that he will not have to walk around naked and his shameful condition be seen.)


Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#2 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 03:32 PM

Futurists commonly say that AntiChrist will be a Jew:

"This person (The False Prophet), who is called the second beast, is going to be a Jew. Many believe he will be from the tribe of Dan, which is one of the tribes of the original progenitors of the nation of Israel.

Lindsey, Hal, "The Late Great Planet Earth," Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, 1970, page 112


Several other items lead Bible students to conclude that antichrist will be a Jew. It is hard to believe that Israel would receive a Gentile Messiah. No Gentile could pose as Christ with any success.

John L. Benson, "Will the Real Antichrist Please Stand Up?" BP Publications, Denver, 1974, page 37


Scripture says of Christ that he is a Jew:

Matthew 1:
1 This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#3 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 03:40 PM

Ah. You confused me at first, but I can see now where this is going. Got any more? :confused:

More to come. :yuk:
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#4 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 03:52 PM

Futurists commonly say that the AntiChrist will appear as the Messiah of the Jews:

The antichrist will actually pose as the Messiah, he will claim Messianic titles and privileges... The antichrist is a person who will attempt to convince Israel that he is their long-anticipated Messiah.

Lindsey, Hal, "The Late Great Planet Earth," Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, 1970, page 10


Scripture says of Christ that he will appear as the Messiah of the Jews:

Acts 3:
19 Therefore repent and turn back so that your sins may be wiped out,
20 so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and so that he may send the Messiah appointed for you—that is, Jesus.
21 This one heaven must receive until the time all things are restored, which God declared from times long ago through his holy prophets.


Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#5 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 03:58 PM

Futurists say that AntiChrist will be identified by the miracles he performs:

With (sic) the counterfeit christ arrives, he will perform miracles in order to convince Israel that he is the prophet like Moses. The man of sin sits as a priest in the temple and engages in a prophetic ministry.

Lindsey, Hal, "The Late Great Planet Earth," Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, 1970, page 22

In other words, Satan himself is going to give him fantastic power. He is going to be able to work all kinds of miracles. This is one reason that Christians should not get too excited when they see a miracle. It may not be a miracle from God. Satan is a miracle worker...

Lindsey, op. cit., page 106


Scripture says that miracles will be performed at the return of Christ:

Isaiah 35:
5 Then blind eyes will open, deaf ears will hear.
6 Then the lame will leap like a deer, the mute tongue will shout for joy; for water will flow in the desert, streams in the wilderness.


Joel 2:
28 After all of this I will pour out my Spirit on all kinds of people.  Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your elderly will have revelatory dreams; your young men will see prophetic visions.
29 Even on male and female servants I will pour out my Spirit in those days.


Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#6 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 04:01 PM

Futurists commonly say that the AntiChrist will establish Jerusalem as his capital:

Jerusalem... the capital and centre of the world dictator's (i.e. Antichrist's rule...

John F. Walvoord, "Armageddon," Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, 1974, page 170


Scripture says of Christ that he will establish Jerusalem as his capital:

Psalm 2:
6 He says, “I myself have installed my king on Zion, my holy hill.”


Isaiah 2:
3 many peoples will come and say, “Come, let’s go up to the Lord’s mountain, to the temple of the God of Jacob, so he can teach us his requirements, and we can follow his standards.” For Zion will be the center for moral instruction; the Lord will issue edicts from Jerusalem.


Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#7 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 04:05 PM

Futurists commonly claim that the AntiChrist will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (or that it will be built just before he comes), and re-establish the sacrificial code:

The Antichrist will deify himself -- just like the Caesars did. He will proclaim himself to be God. He will demand that he be worshipped and will establish himself in the temple of God. (2 Thess. 2:4) There is only one place where this temple of God can be and that is on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem, on the site where the Dome of the Rock and other Moslem shrines now stand.

There are many places in the Bible that pinpoint this location as the one where the Jews will rebuild their Temple.

Lindsey, op. cit., pages 109-110


The Israelis will then be permitted to reinstitute the sacrifice and offering aspect of the law of Moses. This demands that the Temple be rebuilt, because according to the law of Moses, sacrifices can only be offered in the Temple at Jerusalem.

Apparently all this will be done under the protection of the Antichrist of Rome.

(P.S. The Arabs are not going to like this idea of rebuilding the Temple one bit.)"

Lindsey, op. cit., page 152


Scripture says that Christ will build a Temple at Jerusalem, and that the sacrificial code will be re-established by him:

Zechariah 6:
12 Then say to him, ‘The sovereign Lord says, “Look—here is the man whose name is Branch, who will sprout up from his place and build the temple of the Lord.
13 Indeed, he will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed in splendor, sitting as king on his throne. Moreover, there will be a priest with him on his throne and they will see eye to eye on everything.

Zechariah 14:
20 On that day the bells of the horses will bear the inscription “Holy to the Lord.” The cooking pots in the Lord’s temple will be as holy as the bowls in front of the altar.
21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and Judah will become holy in the sight of the sovereign Lord, so that all who offer sacrifices may come and use some of them to boil their sacrifices in them. There will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the sovereign Lord on that day.


See also many passages in Ezekiel and the other prophets.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#8 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 04:10 PM

Futurists claim that the AntiChrist will make a covenant with the Jews:

The Romans under Titus did the destroying, so the coming prince would have to be someone out of the Roman culture...

This Roman prince will come to power just before the return of Christ. He will make 'a strong covenant' with the Israelis, guaranteeing their safety and protection. The word translated 'strong covenant' has the idea of a treaty or mutual protection pact."

Lindsey, op. cit., pages 151-152


It will be a covenant which will permit Israel to continue and renew her religious ceremonies including the building of a Jewish temple and the reactivation of Jewish sacrifices

Walvoord, op. cit., page 117


Scripture says that Christ will come and make a covenant with the Jews:

Isaiah 55:
3 Pay attention and come to me! Listen, so you can live! Then I will make an unconditional covenantal promise to you, just like the reliable covenantal promises I made to David.


Jeremiah 31:
31 “Indeed, a time is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new agreement [covenant] with the people of Israel and Judah.
32 It will not be like the old agreement that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt. For they violated that agreement, even though I was a faithful husband to them,” says the Lord.
33 “But I will make a new agreement [covenant] with the whole nation of Israel after I plant them back in the land,” says the Lord. “I will put my law within them and write it on their hearts and minds. And I will be their God and they will be my people.


Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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target="_blank">Apologetics

#9 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 04:16 PM

Futurists commonly claim that the AntiChrist will defeat Gog (often interpreted as Russia), when Gog attacks Israel, and then declare himself king over the world:

With the world balance of power dramatically in his favour and the world dazzled by Russia's defeat the Antichrist will show his true colours. He will declare himself world dictator and move to crush all opposition.

Walvoord, op. cit., page 141


Scripture says that Gog will be destroyed by God, at the time of Christ's return, and that Christ will then subdue the rest of the nations:

Ezekiel 38:
2 “Son of man, turn toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. Prophesy against him...

21 I will call for a sword to attack him on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign Lord; every man’s sword will be against his brother.
22 I will judge him with plague and bloodshed. I will rain down on him, his troops and the many peoples who are with him a torrential downpour, hailstones, fire, and brimstone.


Zechariah 14:
3 Then the Lord will go to battle and fight against those nations, just as he fought battles in ancient days.
4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives which lies to the east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, leaving a great valley. Half the mountain will move northward and the other half southward.


Revelation 19:
11 Then I saw heaven opened and here came a white horse! The one riding it was called “Faithful” and “True,” and with justice he judges and goes to war.
12 His eyes are like a fiery flame and there are many diadem crowns on his head. He has a name written that no one knows except himself.
13 He is dressed in clothing dipped in blood, and he is called the Word of God.

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to do battle with the one who rode the horse and with his army.
20 Now the beast was seized, and along with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf—signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with sulfur.
21 The others were killed by the sword that extended from the mouth of the one who rode the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves with their flesh.


Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#10 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 04:21 PM

Futurists commonly claim that the AntiChrist will call on the world to submit to his rule, and will promise an age of peace for those who consent:

Ironically, the Mediterranean leader will begin his world government by proclamation. Using his consolidated position of power in the Middle East, he will promise a new day of peace and prosperity for all who recognize his leadership...

This man's absolute control politically, economically, and religiously will give him power such as no man has ever had in human history. His brilliance as a leader will be superhuman for he will be dominated and directed by Satan himself. But during his 3-1/2 year rule, he will ruthlessly crush all opposition.

Walvoord, op. cit., page 161


Scripture says that Christ will call on the nations to submit to his rule, and that his reign will bring in an age of peace:

Psalm 72:
9 Before him the coastlands will bow down, and his enemies will lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and the coastlands will offer gifts; the kings of Sheba and Seba will bring tribute.
11 All kings will bow down to him; all nations will serve him.


Micah 4:
3 He will arbitrate between many peoples, and mediate for many distant nations. They will beat their swords into plowing implements, and their spears into pruning tools. Nations will not take up the sword against other nations, and they will no longer train for war.


Taken largely from here. :confused:
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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target="_blank">Apologetics

#11 Dawn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 05:25 PM

So we're sure going to need a lot of discernment then to distinguish between the True Messiah and a false one? There are, and have been many false Messiahs though surely.

But surely the coming of Jesus will be like lightening on the clouds of heaven with a loud trumpet? Unmistakeable.

The futurist Antichrist won't come in the clouds: they say he will rise politically. A big difference.

If such a world leader does rise, will you change your mind?

If he doesn't rise, then there's nothing to worry about?
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#12 Adanac

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 06:55 PM

The thing is, Dawn, that the antichrist has been around since the first century. There's nothing future about him at all.
Housework has been a snap since I realized... "Hey! I'm a guy!".

#13 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 11:29 PM

So we're sure going to need a lot of discernment then to distinguish between the True Messiah and a false one?

Yes. And some people are going around busily preparing others to view Christ as the AntiChrist.

There are, and have been many false Messiahs though surely.


Yes, but none of them have done - or will be able to do - what Christ will.

But surely the coming of Jesus will be like lightening on the clouds of heaven with a loud trumpet?  Unmistakeable.


Sure Dawn, sure. He'll come with supernatural power, just as the Futurists claim AntiChrist will.

The futurist Antichrist won't come in the clouds:  they say he will rise politically.  A big difference.


No, not a big difference. The Futurists say that he might rise politically, but that he will declare himself in a supernatural way - like Christ.

If such a world leader does rise, will you change your mind? If he doesn't rise, then there's nothing to worry about?


He will arise Dawn - he's called the Lord Jesus Christ. And people are being taught to call him AntiChrist and make war against him.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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target="_blank">Apologetics

#14 Adanac

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 11:35 PM

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#15 Adanac

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 11:39 PM

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#16 Dawn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 11:40 PM

The thing is, Dawn, that the antichrist has been around since the first century. There's nothing future about him at all.

I agree with that.

But what's to say there won't be more in the future?
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#17 Dawn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 11:43 PM

So we're sure going to need a lot of discernment then to distinguish between the True Messiah and a false one? There are, and have been many false Messiahs though surely.


Thats the thing - may people who believe in this futurism will believe that Jesus is the anti-Christ when he returns because of the similarities pointed out above. However, those who do have a correct understanding of prophecy (continuous historicist) will be and have been able to distinguish antiChrist from the true Christ.

Thats why it is vital you understand prophecy correctly - because if you accept futurist dogmas then you are at serious risk of rejecting your Messiah at his return.

Yes I know. I was very excited about this because it was "all the rage" when I was in fellowship.

However, I still think there are two very important differences (which didn't enter my head at the time) -

1) That the mainstreams are expecting anti-Christ to rise POLITICALLY (just like any other politician)

2) That the mainstreams are expecting the true Christ to return in great power and glory on the clouds of heave with a loud trumpet.

There's absolutely no way you can get those two mixed up surely?
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#18 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 11:51 PM

The thing is, Dawn, that the antichrist has been around since the first century. There's nothing future about him at all.

I agree with that.

But what's to say there won't be more in the future?

What do you mean 'more in the future'? We have them in the present. :confused:

Please don't confuse 'antiChrist' with the 'man of sin'. They are two completely different subjects.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#19 Dawn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 11:52 PM

I'm not overly into looking for one particular "anti-Christ" figure myself as I do think its a bit over-rated (though some great world leader might arise politically) because I think there are lots of "anti-Christs" already (which I've detailed in another thread somewhere).

If such a world leader does rise, will you change your mind? If he doesn't rise, then there's nothing to worry about?


He will arise Dawn - he's called the Lord Jesus Christ. And people are being taught to call him AntiChrist and make war against him.


Well as long He arises on the clouds in power and great glory with the sound of the loud trumpet, I shan't make war with Him, because I'll know He's my Lord and Saviour.

But if some bloke rises up politically and starts faffing around in some temple which the Jews have rebuilt, - and even if he does a few spectacular tricks like call fire down from heaven - I probably wouldn't make war on him (because of my views on Christ and protest), but I wouldn't think much of him or worship him.

Edited by dondawn, 16 March 2005 - 11:52 PM.

"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#20 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 11:52 PM

1) That the mainstreams are expecting anti-Christ to rise POLITICALLY (just like any other politician)

Politically and invisibly.

2)  That the mainstreams are expecting the true Christ to return in great power and glory on the clouds of heave with a loud trumpet.


And they are expecting the antiChrist to reveal himself supernaturally in the same way.

There's absolutely no way you can get those two mixed up surely?


Please read that list of posts I presented. :confused:
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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target="_blank">Apologetics

#21 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 11:53 PM

Well as long He arises on the clouds in power and great glory with the sound of the loud trumpet, I shan't make war with Him, because I'll know He's my Lord and Saviour.

But if some bloke rises up politically and starts faffing around in some temple which the Jews have rebuilt, - and even if he does a few spectacular tricks like call fire down from heaven - I probably wouldn't make war on him (because of my views on Christ and protest), but I wouldn't think much of him or worship him.

But others will, because he will do what they have been told is the work of AntiChrist.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#22 Adanac

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 12:02 AM

Christ will also do some things that people will not like. He’ll remove their freedom, he’ll revoke humanism and lots of other stuff people are going to get angry about.
Housework has been a snap since I realized... "Hey! I'm a guy!".

#23 Dawn

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 12:09 AM

Please read that list of posts I presented.  :confused:


Yes - I need more time on this (and the Buzzard topic), and hope to get round to more in-depth study later.

1)  That the mainstreams are expecting anti-Christ to rise POLITICALLY (just like any other politician)

Politically and invisibly.


Invisibly? Well that's the key word see - mainstreams are expecting Christ's return to be TOTALLY VISIBLE where every eye will see Him.

2)  That the mainstreams are expecting the true Christ to return in great power and glory on the clouds of heave with a loud trumpet.


And they are expecting the antiChrist to reveal himself supernaturally in the same way.


Well the ones I know aren't. They are not looking for an antiChrist coming on the clouds in power and great glory. They are looking for a policitical figure, who might do miracles - but they certainly know that antiChrist couldn't pull that one off!!
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#24 Fortigurn

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 12:13 AM

Please read that list of posts I presented.  :confused:


Yes - I need more time on this (and the Buzzard topic), and hope to get round to more in-depth study later.

1)  That the mainstreams are expecting anti-Christ to rise POLITICALLY (just like any other politician)

Politically and invisibly.


Invisibly? Well that's the key word see - mainstreams are expecting Christ's return to be TOTALLY VISIBLE where every eye will see Him.

No Dawn, that's the point I keep making - they believe that AntiChrist will gain political power invisibly (gradually, without making himself known, not saying 'Hi, I'm the AntiChrist, and I would like some political power, please'), and then reveal himself openly, in a supernatural way which is almost identical to how Christ will reveal himself.

2)  That the mainstreams are expecting the true Christ to return in great power and glory on the clouds of heave with a loud trumpet.


And they are expecting the antiChrist to reveal himself supernaturally in the same way.


Well the ones I know aren't. They are not looking for an antiChrist coming on the clouds in power and great glory. They are looking for a policitical figure, who might do miracles - but they certainly know that antiChrist couldn't pull that one off!!


I'm afraid that they are wrong - there have been countless false Messiah's in the past who have been able to pull it off.

But that aside, they are setting themselves up to reject Christ, because he will do the things they expedt the AntiChrist to do.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#25 luke

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 12:29 AM

...they are setting themselves up to reject Christ, because he will do the things they expect the AntiChrist to do.

Hope you don't mind if I repeat this, 'cos it seems pretty important.

#26 Dawn

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 10:32 AM

But that aside, they are setting themselves up to reject Christ, because he will do the things they expedt the AntiChrist to do.

But not come in the clouds with power and great glory with the sound of the trumpet. I haven't yet met a mainstream that is expecting the anti-christ to do this.
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#27 Dawn

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 10:42 AM

...they are setting themselves up to reject Christ, because he will do the things they expect the AntiChrist to do.

Hope you don't mind if I repeat this, 'cos it seems pretty important.

I don't know why I'm arguing for the futurist antichrist mainstreams here, 'cos I'm not 100% with them: but I keep an open mind on the possibility that there may rise up a world leader who will bring a false peace.

However, the mainstreams I know are not expecting antichrist to do the things Christ will do. They are expecting antichrist to do the following:

(a) exalt HIMSELF
(b) come in his OWN NAME
© bring a false political peace

Many mainstreams believe they won't even be here to see it. They believe they will be "raptured" and so they are not even remotely looking for the rebuilding of the temple or the man of sin, because they think they will be taken out way before that time.

As for performing miracles: I don't about that. Maybe some believe that antichrist will do some, but they don't believe the antichrist will try to imitate the Lord coming on the clouds.

The vision of the Lord coming in power and glory on the clouds of heaven with a loud trumpet is a precious vision to many evangelical mainstreams: it gets them dancing for joy and praising God with sheer joy - they can't wait for the Lord to come back in power and great glory; and they believe that this act is only reserved for the Lord Jesus Christ, the true Messiah.
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#28 luke

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 12:05 PM

However, the mainstreams I know are not expecting antichrist to do the things Christ will do. They are expecting antichrist to do the following:

(a) exalt HIMSELF
(b) come in his OWN NAME
© bring a false political peace

Isn't it possible though, Dawn, that they could mistakenly think that Jesus is doing this when he comes?

#29 Dawn

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 02:47 PM

However,  the mainstreams I know are not expecting antichrist to do the things Christ will do.  They are expecting antichrist to do the following:

(a) exalt HIMSELF
(b) come in his OWN NAME
© bring a false political peace

Isn't it possible though, Dawn, that they could mistakenly think that Jesus is doing this when he comes?

Well some mainstreams might: the liberal ones and the ones that rarely read their Bibles (and there's quite a lot of those): the Lord Jesus will do a lot of things they won't like, such as rule with a rod of iron (liberals won't like the Lord getting tough on Muslims or homosexuality), so they could well make war if Christ returns and start doing that.

But most evangelical mainstreams are expecting an antichrist who will bring peace based on liberalism and compromise. Which is totally opposite to peace the Lord Jesus will herald through righteousness.

These mainstreams are expecting the Lord to come back in power a glory having been exalted by the Father, and who will come in His Father's Name, and will herald a kingdom of peace through cleansing the earth of evil.
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#30 Fortigurn

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 03:18 PM


But that aside, they are setting themselves up to reject Christ, because he will do the things they expedt the AntiChrist to do.

But not come in the clouds with power and great glory with the sound of the trumpet. I haven't yet met a mainstream that is expecting the anti-christ to do this.

Dawn, you're missing the point. This won't suprise them at all, because they are expecting this AntiChrist to do the same miracles as Christ.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics




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