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Revelation 12 Reference Post


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#31 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 04:19 PM

Notice also that the references to Nebuchadnezzar in chapter 13 in describing the beasts. Verses 7, 8, 14 and 15 all refer back to his time. Why? Because he is the original beast (Daniel 4) teaching us that whereas we might see earthly rulers as mighty men (Daniel 2) they are really just beasts (Daniel 7). So Nebuchadnezzar was a man who turned into a beast.

Is that what is happening in Revelation 12 and 13? Do we have a man turning into a beast?
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#32 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 04:20 PM

Where else in the Bible do we have a woman, a serpent and the birth of a man child?

Are you referring to the Garden?
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#33 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 04:20 PM

Notice also that the references to Nebuchadnezzar in chapter 13 in describing the beasts. Verses 7, 8, 14 and 15 all refer back to his time. Why? Because he is the original beast (Daniel 4) teaching us that whereas we might see earthly rulers as mighty men (Daniel 2) they are really just beasts (Daniel 7). So Nebuchadnezzar was a man who turned into a beast.

Now that is a brilliant point... :book:

Is that what is happening in Revelation 12 and 13? Do we have a man turning into a beast?

Which man? The man-child? But he disappeared off the scene... :un
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#34 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 04:20 PM

Where else in the Bible do we have a woman, a serpent and the birth of a man child?

Are you referring to the Garden?

:book:

The woman is Eve. She is deceived by the serpent. She gives birth to a man child. She calls his name Cain, saying "I have gotten the man, Yahweh". She thinks he is the seed of the woman, the promised deliverer. But whereas he is naturally the son of Adam, who is the Son of God, he is spiritually the serpent's seed (1 John 3:12). He grows up and strives with his brother and kills him, blaspheming the name of God.

That's the conflict in Revelation. A conflict between brethren, one the seed of the woman (the ecclesia) and the other the seed of the serpent (the church).
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#35 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 04:21 PM

Notice also that the references to Nebuchadnezzar in chapter 13 in describing the beasts. Verses 7, 8, 14 and 15 all refer back to his time. Why? Because he is the original beast (Daniel 4) teaching us that whereas we might see earthly rulers as mighty men (Daniel 2) they are really just beasts (Daniel 7). So Nebuchadnezzar was a man who turned into a beast.

Now that is a brilliant point... :D

Is that what is happening in Revelation 12 and 13? Do we have a man turning into a beast?

Which man? The man-child? But he disappeared off the scene... :book:

Exactly. He disappeared off the scene because he's really a beast - chapter 13.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#36 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 04:21 PM

Paul sums it up:

2  For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3  But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


The woman in Revelation should be a chaste virgin, but she's pregnant. She has been beguiled by the serpent and the result is "another Jesus".

That's the point of Revelation 12. The man child appears to be Jesus, but he is an imposter, might we say a vicarious Christ?
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#37 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 04:21 PM

She gives birth to a man child. She calls his name Cain, saying "I have gotten the man, Yahweh". She thinks he is the seed of the woman, the promised deliverer....He grows up and strives with his brother and kills him, blaspheming the name of God.

Another brilliant point :book:
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#38 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 04:21 PM

So what do I think is happening in chapter 12?

1. The woman describes the ecclesia with the emphasis on her Israelitish characteristics.
2. The dragon describes Rome with the emphasis on his pagan (Egyptian) characteristics.
3. The result is a man child who inherits Jewish and Egyptian customs, who then becomes the ruler of a false Kingdom, that we might term "Christendom".

I personally believe this is a prophecy of the rise of Constantine. I came to this conclusion independantly of reading Eureka (which I have never read) and hearing brethren state it from the platform (I always thought it sounded odd). Constantines's father was a pagan and his mother was a Christian. The church that came about as a result of his political maneouvers inherits Jewish custom (priests, incence, altars) and Egyptian doctrine (immortal soulism, Trinity, supernatural devil).
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#39 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 04:23 PM

Regarding the fact that the man-child "appears" to be Christ, and yet is not, I would suggest a good example of this sort of thing is Solomon. Here is one who appeared to fulfil the promises of the seed to David, and yet by the end of his life he is utterly apostate.

Revelation also picks up on the Solomon types, for the apostacy on the surface looks like it is Godly, but a closer inspection shows it to be anything but.

Consider the following table. Each link by itself may not seem significant, but the number of links between the apostasy in Rev and the later years of Solomon’s life add up.

BTW, this table is a work in progress, there are probably lots more links that could be added.

Rev &nbsp 1Kings &nbsp 13:18 “...the number of the beast...is six hundred and sixty-six. 10:14 “Now the weight of gold which came in to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold” 17:1-2 "Come here, I shall show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality...”

11:1-2 Now King Solomon loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the sons of Israel, "You shall not associate with them, neither shall they associate with you, {for} they will surely turn your heart away after their gods." Solomon held fast to these in love.

17:4-5 “ ...full of abominations …THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." 11:5 For Solomon went...after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. “abomination” – same word in LXX, also 11:33 17:4-5 “a gold cup” 10:21 “and all King Solomon's drinking vessels were of gold” 17:4-5 “precious stones” 10:2, 11

Almost all OT refs to precious stones are to do with Solomon 18:3, 9 “the kings of the earth” 4:34, 10:23 “kings of the earth” in historical OT books this phrase is unique to Solomon’s reign (see also 2Chron 9:22, 23) 18:11 “the merchants” 10:15, 28 “besides that from the traders and the wares of the merchants...” “and the king's merchants procured them from Kue for a price.”

Merchants are an almost unique characteristic of Solomon’s reign. 18:12 “gold, precious stones” 10:11 “brought gold...and precious stones.” 18:12 “costly wood” 10:11-12 “brought in from Ophir a very great number of almug trees...and the king made of the almug trees supports for the house of the LORD and for the king's house, also lyres and harps for the singers; such almug trees have not come in again, nor have they been seen to this day.”

Only time this sort of language about an amazing wood 18:12 “Ivory” &nbsp 6 (or 7?) references to Solomon (1K 10:18, 22, 2Chr 9:17, 21, Psa 45:8(?), Song 5:14, 7:4 Other refs probably significant to apostasy too, such as Ahab’s ivory palace and Ezek 27 references) 18:12 “marble”Only occ. in NT Song 5:15 “His legs are as pillars of marble...” This is the only occ. of this Greek word in the LXX – a ref to Solomon’s legs 18:13 “Cinnamon” Prov 7:17Song 4:14

Only 3 refs in OT, 2 of them are in Solomon’s writings 18:13 “spice, incense, perfume (myrrh) frankincense” 10:10, 25 “Never again did such abundance of spices come in as that which the queen of Sheba gave King Solomon.” There is a lot more to look here.

Myrrh and frankincense appear to be especially referred to in the context of Solomon 18:13 horses & chariots 10:28:29 “Also Solomon's import of horses was from Egypt and Kue, and the king's merchants procured {them} from Kue for a price. And a chariot was imported from Egypt for 600 {shekels} of silver, and a horse for 150; and by the same means they exported them to all the kings of the Hittites and to the kings of the Arameans.”

This was Solomon’s main business! 18:13 slaves 9:15-22 Solomon noted for slavery of the aliens in his kingdom.This may have even eventually included some Israelites (1Kings 11:28) 18:17-19 “every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea”“in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth” 10:22, etc. “For the king had at sea the ships of Tarshish with the ships of Hiram...”

Another characteristic of Solomon was his ships. 2:20 Jezebel(of Zidon) 11:1, 5, 33 Worship of Zidonian god mentioned 3 times
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#40 Fortigurn

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 04:23 PM

Good stuff Johanan!

There are also clear links between 2 Thess 2 and Revelation 12. And also there are links back to Eli and his sons. Can’t speak on that in detail at the moment.

The theme of that which appears to be true in fact being false is consistent throughout Scripture. It is an exhortation for us. Sometimes what seems to be religious is really just a lamb that speaks as a dragon.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#41 Simon-Ben-Zion

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 01:42 PM

Could the dragon be the papacy?

Jacopone da Todi (1230-1306) associated the papacy with the dragon of Rev. 12 Curiously, one of the Popes adopted the winged serpent or dragon as his symbol on his heraldic shield.   Here is the heraldic coat of arms of Pope Gregory XIII, 1572-1585 A.D., who is most known for initiating the calendar reform in use today, the Gregorian calendar. The coat of arms of Gregory XIII shown here is one of two that can be found above the doors in the Gallery of Maps in the Vatican. Revelation 12 clearly tells us that the dragon is symbolic of Satan, so why did a pope use it as his symbol?

The above papal medal of Pope Gregory XIII, designed by L Parm, is dated 1582, marking the year of the Gregorian calendar reform. On the reverse of the medal is a winged dragon / serpent encircling a ram's head. As previously mentioned, the dragon is the biblical symbol of Satan (Rev 12:9). The serpent that is chasing or devouring its tail is called Ouroboros, Uroboros, or Oureboros. The ram's head is also a satanic symbol, and is frequently associated with the Egyptian deities, such as the god Amon (Amoun, Ammun, Ammon), the king of all gods, who was also regarded as the sun god, and Khnum, who created mankind on his potter's wheel from the mud of the Nile.
The intended symbolic meaning, however, is undoubtedly that of Aries the Ram, the first sign of the Zodiac, which symbolizes the Vernal / Spring Equinox, and Draco / Drako (or Ouroboros) the serpent depicting a cyclical returning. Pope Gregory XIII had modified the calendar specifically so that the Vernal Equinox would remain relatively constant, on or about March 21st, which is the beginning of the Zodiacal year, when the Sun crosses the Equator and enters the astrological sign of Aries. This had the desired result of returning Easter to the time specified by the Nicene Council (325 A.D.).
A second pope, Paolo V (1605-1621) also used a winged dragon on his heraldic shield along with an eagle. In the Vatican Gardens there is a fountain called the Fountain of Towers, bearing the inscription and papal shield of Paolo V, in which the central figure of the fountain is a winged dragon centered in water spouts. Flanking either side of the fountain are fortress like towers topped by sculptures of winged dragons.

12:7 And there was war in heaven after the 1260 in the year 1798 the French general, Berthier who entered Rome, organized there a Republic, on February 15, 1798, demanded of the Pope the renunciation of his temporal authority. Upon his refusal the pope was taken prisoner, from the Vatican to France, where he died the following year. From that time until the present, Papal dominion over the kingdoms of earth has been merely a shadow of its former self. Since then, it has scarcely mentioned its assumed right to make and unmake kings. In fact, the pope who succeeded in 1800, under the title Pius VII, "published an address in which he declared it to be the doctrine of the gospel that all should obey established governments," which of course included himself.

#42 Simon-Ben-Zion

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 04:13 PM

Could the dragon be the papacy?

Jacopone da Todi (1230-1306) associated the papacy with the dragon of Rev. 12 Curiously, one of the Popes adopted the winged serpent or dragon as his symbol on his heraldic shield.   Here is the heraldic coat of arms of Pope Gregory XIII, 1572-1585 A.D., who is most known for initiating the calendar reform in use today, the Gregorian calendar. The coat of arms of Gregory XIII shown here is one of two that can be found above the doors in the Gallery of Maps in the Vatican. Revelation 12 clearly tells us that the dragon is symbolic of Satan, so why did a pope use it as his symbol?

The above papal medal of Pope Gregory XIII, designed by L Parm, is dated 1582, marking the year of the Gregorian calendar reform. On the reverse of the medal is a winged dragon / serpent encircling a ram's head. As previously mentioned, the dragon is the biblical symbol of Satan (Rev 12:9). The serpent that is chasing or devouring its tail is called Ouroboros, Uroboros, or Oureboros. The ram's head is also a satanic symbol, and is frequently associated with the Egyptian deities, such as the god Amon (Amoun, Ammun, Ammon), the king of all gods, who was also regarded as the sun god, and Khnum, who created mankind on his potter's wheel from the mud of the Nile.
The intended symbolic meaning, however, is undoubtedly that of Aries the Ram, the first sign of the Zodiac, which symbolizes the Vernal / Spring Equinox, and Draco / Drako (or Ouroboros) the serpent depicting a cyclical returning. Pope Gregory XIII had modified the calendar specifically so that the Vernal Equinox would remain relatively constant, on or about March 21st, which is the beginning of the Zodiacal year, when the Sun crosses the Equator and enters the astrological sign of Aries. This had the desired result of returning Easter to the time specified by the Nicene Council (325 A.D.).
A second pope, Paolo V (1605-1621) also used a winged dragon on his heraldic shield along with an eagle. In the Vatican Gardens there is a fountain called the Fountain of Towers, bearing the inscription and papal shield of Paolo V, in which the central figure of the fountain is a winged dragon centered in water spouts. Flanking either side of the fountain are fortress like towers topped by sculptures of winged dragons.

12:7 And there was war in heaven after the 1260 in the year 1798 the French general, Berthier who entered Rome, organized there a Republic, on February 15, 1798, demanded of the Pope the renunciation of his temporal authority. Upon his refusal the pope was taken prisoner, from the Vatican to France, where he died the following year. From that time until the present, Papal dominion over the kingdoms of earth has been merely a shadow of its former self. Since then, it has scarcely mentioned its assumed right to make and unmake kings. In fact, the pope who succeeded in 1800, under the title Pius VII, "published an address in which he declared it to be the doctrine of the gospel that all should obey established governments," which of course included himself.


v4 And his tail The tail of the crocodile is used to sweep its prey into the water. Rezin and Pekah are styled "two tails" in Isa. 7:4; see also Isa. 9:15, "the prophet that teaches lies, he is the tail." here it is the false power of civil Rome under Constantine in the ecclesiastical condition. drew the third part of the stars of heaven, faithful light-bearers who had spiritual influence and did cast them to the earth: the common earthly level divesting them of authority in the church Forced them to teach what he told them or else be banished, as was the DONATISTS

v15 as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. that must mean doctrine, and of course, false doctrine So what are the Papal false doctrine After 1798
Well after the fall of Napoleon in 1814 Pope Pius with in three months of his return to Rome officially re-established the Jesuits, The Oxford Movement, The second Reich, Fascism, Ecumenism

Water=infidel truths on human rights and dignity which emanated in the French Revolution
"The strength of the French revolution, to which reference is here had, lay in the fact that it was instigated by many stern truths, regarding priest-craft and king-craft, and regarding the individual rights and liberties of all. Truths regarding human rights were seen and expressed there which cause us surprise when we consider the ignorance, superstition and servility of that day, under which the masses had so long rested. Many of the truths which then swept as a flood over France, deluging it with blood, are now very generally accepted among all civilized peoples."
It is a fact of history that the flood of truth which spread over France — arraigning Papacy and its priestcraft, and monarchy and its parasitic aristocracy, as the responsible causes of much of the ignorance, poverty and superstition of the people — was swallowed up, or absorbed by the people of Europe generally (The Roman 'earth'). And when the rulers of Europe formed what was called 'The Holy Alliance,' for the suppression of the liberties of the people and the perpetuation of their own thrones, it was too late to fetter the people; for, having drunk up the flood of waters, they would not submit. It was too late to think of re-establishing Papacy, which had been so terribly humiliated and whose anathemas against liberty and the French had so reacted against itself; so the pope was not even invited to join the 'Holy Alliance,' of which before he would have been the recognized head."

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (After 1798,) which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Papal Rome was angry with the true church,--"and went to make war with the remnant of her seed." This war has not yet come; for it is evident by the expression "remnant of her seed," that it means the last of the church "who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." This is the last struggle of this anti-Christian beast.

#43 Simon-Ben-Zion

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 10:41 AM


Could the dragon be the papacy?

Jacopone da Todi (1230-1306) associated the papacy with the dragon of Rev. 12 Curiously, one of the Popes adopted the winged serpent or dragon as his symbol on his heraldic shield.   Here is the heraldic coat of arms of Pope Gregory XIII, 1572-1585 A.D., who is most known for initiating the calendar reform in use today, the Gregorian calendar. The coat of arms of Gregory XIII shown here is one of two that can be found above the doors in the Gallery of Maps in the Vatican. Revelation 12 clearly tells us that the dragon is symbolic of Satan, so why did a pope use it as his symbol?

The above papal medal of Pope Gregory XIII, designed by L Parm, is dated 1582, marking the year of the Gregorian calendar reform. On the reverse of the medal is a winged dragon / serpent encircling a ram's head. As previously mentioned, the dragon is the biblical symbol of Satan (Rev 12:9). The serpent that is chasing or devouring its tail is called Ouroboros, Uroboros, or Oureboros. The ram's head is also a satanic symbol, and is frequently associated with the Egyptian deities, such as the god Amon (Amoun, Ammun, Ammon), the king of all gods, who was also regarded as the sun god, and Khnum, who created mankind on his potter's wheel from the mud of the Nile.
The intended symbolic meaning, however, is undoubtedly that of Aries the Ram, the first sign of the Zodiac, which symbolizes the Vernal / Spring Equinox, and Draco / Drako (or Ouroboros) the serpent depicting a cyclical returning. Pope Gregory XIII had modified the calendar specifically so that the Vernal Equinox would remain relatively constant, on or about March 21st, which is the beginning of the Zodiacal year, when the Sun crosses the Equator and enters the astrological sign of Aries. This had the desired result of returning Easter to the time specified by the Nicene Council (325 A.D.).
A second pope, Paolo V (1605-1621) also used a winged dragon on his heraldic shield along with an eagle. In the Vatican Gardens there is a fountain called the Fountain of Towers, bearing the inscription and papal shield of Paolo V, in which the central figure of the fountain is a winged dragon centered in water spouts. Flanking either side of the fountain are fortress like towers topped by sculptures of winged dragons.

12:7 And there was war in heaven after the 1260 in the year 1798 the French general, Berthier who entered Rome, organized there a Republic, on February 15, 1798, demanded of the Pope the renunciation of his temporal authority. Upon his refusal the pope was taken prisoner, from the Vatican to France, where he died the following year. From that time until the present, Papal dominion over the kingdoms of earth has been merely a shadow of its former self. Since then, it has scarcely mentioned its assumed right to make and unmake kings. In fact, the pope who succeeded in 1800, under the title Pius VII, "published an address in which he declared it to be the doctrine of the gospel that all should obey established governments," which of course included himself.


v4 And his tail The tail of the crocodile is used to sweep its prey into the water. Rezin and Pekah are styled "two tails" in Isa. 7:4; see also Isa. 9:15, "the prophet that teaches lies, he is the tail." here it is the false power of civil Rome under Constantine in the ecclesiastical condition. drew the third part of the stars of heaven, faithful light-bearers who had spiritual influence and did cast them to the earth: the common earthly level divesting them of authority in the church Forced them to teach what he told them or else be banished, as was the DONATISTS

v15 as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. that must mean doctrine, and of course, false doctrine So what are the Papal false doctrine After 1798
Well after the fall of Napoleon in 1814 Pope Pius with in three months of his return to Rome officially re-established the Jesuits, The Oxford Movement, The second Reich, Fascism, Ecumenism

Water=infidel truths on human rights and dignity which emanated in the French Revolution
"The strength of the French revolution, to which reference is here had, lay in the fact that it was instigated by many stern truths, regarding priest-craft and king-craft, and regarding the individual rights and liberties of all. Truths regarding human rights were seen and expressed there which cause us surprise when we consider the ignorance, superstition and servility of that day, under which the masses had so long rested. Many of the truths which then swept as a flood over France, deluging it with blood, are now very generally accepted among all civilized peoples."
It is a fact of history that the flood of truth which spread over France — arraigning Papacy and its priestcraft, and monarchy and its parasitic aristocracy, as the responsible causes of much of the ignorance, poverty and superstition of the people — was swallowed up, or absorbed by the people of Europe generally (The Roman 'earth'). And when the rulers of Europe formed what was called 'The Holy Alliance,' for the suppression of the liberties of the people and the perpetuation of their own thrones, it was too late to fetter the people; for, having drunk up the flood of waters, they would not submit. It was too late to think of re-establishing Papacy, which had been so terribly humiliated and whose anathemas against liberty and the French had so reacted against itself; so the pope was not even invited to join the 'Holy Alliance,' of which before he would have been the recognized head."

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (After 1798,) which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Papal Rome was angry with the true church,--"and went to make war with the remnant of her seed." This war has not yet come; for it is evident by the expression "remnant of her seed," that it means the last of the church "who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." This is the last struggle of this anti-Christian beast.

Luther’s writings were very polemical against the Catholic Church. He accused the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, of being the Anti-Christ. In the book GREAT BOOKS AND BOOK COLLECTORS, by Alan G. Thomas, on page 95, it shows a picture that appeared in some of Martin Luther’s "Bibles." It depicts the Bishop of Rome, as the Great Red Dragon of Revelation chapter 12 and it identifies him as such with the triple papal crown on the head of the Dragon.

#44 Linker

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 01:49 AM

Response to the OP:

Briefly ....

Revelation 12 is a view of Israel, the Lord, and Satan

This vision contains historical reach back and forward projection for the time of the end of this present age

Israel's beginnings, first century, and at the time of the end during the time of "Jacob's" trouble at the end of this present age

The Lord's appearance in the first century, His resurrection, and His protection of a believing remnant part of Israel during the coming time of "Jacob's trouble

Satan's drawing of 1/3 of the fallen angels, his attempt to kill the Lord in the first century, and his casting to the earth during the Lord's hour [time] of wrath and judgment against an unbelieving intransigent world at the end of this present age
2Peter
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts

#45 Widdekind

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:38 AM

Revelation is highly symbolic. Meaning is encoded, symbolically, in fantastic images.

The "sun moon woman" represents faithful Israel, per standard OT symbol. She gives birth to the "Christ child", so symbolizing Christianity, the Church, being the "true Israel" (Romans).

The "harlot" represents un-faithful Israel, per standard OT symbol. She sides with the "Beast", i.e. the Roman Empire, "riding" the Roman Empire to persecute Christianity, even as the Jews pressured Pilate with the words "we have no king but Caesar". Thus, the "harlot" is the "synagogue of Satan" (Rev 2-3), children of the Devil (John 8), who chooses secular worldly political power, over the true Religion.

The
  • harlot
  • Babylon
  • great city (mega-polis)
  • Sodom & Egypt
is Jerusalem, destroyed in 70 AD. If you do a Strong's search, for the Greek words "mega + polis" with the Blue-Letter-Bible website; then you will see, that "great city" consistently refers to Jerusalem, from the Gospel of Matthew, to Revelation. Evidently, Jesus and his followers referred to Jerusalem with the "code-word" of "Babylon".

The flight of the "sun moon woman" to the wilderness for three-and-a-half times (Rev 12) symbolizes the flight of Christians from besieged Jerusalem (Rev 11) foretold by Jesus (Matt 24 = Luke 21). According to Christian historian Eusebius, Christians escaped Jerusalem, and fled to Pella, as Jerusalem imploded behind them. If permissible, then i would refer readers to Dr. Kenneth Gentry's Revelation Made Easy, who persuasively argues for "Babylon = Jerusalem".

#46 nsr

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:32 PM

You need to set Revelation in its own context before you can interpret the symbols correctly. I don't see where you've done that.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#47 Matt Smith

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:41 PM

The major issue with your interpretation is that Revelation begins with these words:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John...

Even if you buy into an early date for Revelation (which I don't), you have an issue with chapter 12 referring to the birth of Christ since it was already a past event.
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