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Is The Bible The Word Of God?


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#1 Ahmed1

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 03:54 PM

Is the Bible the word of God ?

#2 Huldah

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 04:08 PM

We believe so.

:P
"Dear friends, if our conscience does not condemn us, we have confidence in the presence of God and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing to him. Now this is his commandment: that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he gave us the commandment. And the person who keeps his commandments resides in God, and God in him. Now by this we know that God resides in us: by the Spirit he has given us"
1 John 3.21-24

#3 Nada

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 05:01 PM

Hi all,

I have an idea. Let's prove the reliability or unreliability of the Bible by The verses of Bible itself and the Quran by the verses of Quran itself to get benefit from this debate.
"Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (ie Islâm) with wisdom (ie with the Divine Inspiration and the Qur'ân) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided" (Qur'an 16:125)

"There is no compulsion in religion Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path Whoever disbelieves in Tâghűt and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower" (Quran 2:256)

"Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qűb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qűb (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Műsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)" (Quran 2:136)

#4 Ahmed1

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 03:53 AM

I can't accept the Bible as word of God because there are so many contradictions.And her some of it:

. Are there other "gods" beside God?

Exodus 20-1-6; Isaiah 43:10;44:6 Versus Deuteronomy 6;14; 1 Chronicles 16:25; Psalm 82:1,6; Jeremiah 10:11; Zephaniah 2:11; John 10:34.

"I am the Lord your God. Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the House of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not take for your self any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in the heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God., but showing mercy to thousand to those who love Me and keep my commandments."
(Exodus 20:1-6)

"You are My witness, says the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me."
(Isaiah 44:6)

The following are some Biblical verses that claim that there are gods beside God:
"You shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you."
(Deuteronomy 6:14)

"And the temple which I build will be great, for our God is greater than all gods."
(2 Chronicles 2:5)

"For the LORD is great and greatly to be praised; He is also to be feared above all gods."
(Chronicles 16:25)

"God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods."(Psalm 82:1)

"I said, You are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High."
(Psalm 82:1)

"Thus you shall say to them: 'The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens'."
(Jeremiah 10:11)

"The LORD will be awesome to them , for He will reduce to nothing to nothing all the gods of the earth; people shall worship Him, each from his place, indeed all the shores of the nations."
(Zephaniah 2:11)

"Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your law,' I said, 'You are gods'."
(John 10:34)

#5 Adanac

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 05:23 AM

If someone knocked at your door and said "Avon calling!" would you think there are many Avons?

This sort of criticism of the Bible just displays ignorance of simple Bible teaching. Here your complaint is easily refuted by God manifestation. Do you know what that is?
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#6 Ahmed1

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 08:53 AM

I can't accept the Bible as word of God because:

. Is there a man greater than or equal to God?

Is it not that God is infinite - He has no beginning and no end? Because, if God is merely the first, then somebody must have created Him and that somebody must be the One and only true God. How come Melchizedek according to Paul had such qualities?
Isaiah 48:12 Versus Hebrews 7:1-3:

"Listen to, me O Jacob and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the last."
(Isaiah 48:12 )

The Bible characterises Melchizedek as greater than God for it says that "he has no beginning of days nor end of life"; Whereas, God is merely the "First".

007:001 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
007:002 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
007:003 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

(Hebrews 7:1-3)

#7 Dawn

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 09:15 AM

I can't accept the Bible as word of God because there are so many contradictions.And her some of it:

. Are there other "gods" beside God?

Ahmed - this is to do with translation of the Hebrew word "Elohim".

Elohim is sometimes trnaslated as "God" "gods" "judges" - it depends on the syntax and grammar on how the translators translate it.

Just because it's translated as "gods" or "judges" in one place doesn't mean that the Hebrew God of the Scriptures is polytheist.

Absolutely not.

"Elohim" as I'm sure you know, is plural in Hebrew. "Eloah" is the singular. "Elohim" in the plural.

This is a difference between Islam and the God of Israel.

There is ONLY ONE God in Scripture "Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is ONE Lord".

In Hebrew, this reads " Hear O Israel, YAHWEH your ELOHIM is one YAHWEH" (Deut 6:4)

Literally - "Hear O Israel, He Who Will Be your Mighty Ones is ONE He Who Will Be the Coming One"

Adanac is right. It is all about the self-existent God manifesting Himself in love in the flesh and in a multitude.

God manifested Himself in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is God's Son.

God can manifest Himself in a multitude of millions of angels.

God will eventually manifest Himself in millions of men and women when they are resurrected and are made perfect through the righteousness of Christ.

There is absolutely no contradiction at all with the Oneness of God and the fact that He is able to manifest Himself as a multitude.

It's all about relationship.

Allah is all alone. No manifestation at all. No relationship.
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#8 Dawn

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 09:26 AM

I can't accept the Bible as word of God because:

. Is there a man greater than or equal to God?

Is it not that God is infinite - He has no beginning and no end? Because, if God is merely the first, then somebody must have created Him and that somebody must be the One and only true God. How come Melchizedek according to Paul had such qualities?
Isaiah 48:12 Versus Hebrews 7:1-3:

"Listen to, me O Jacob and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the last."
(Isaiah 48:12 )

The Bible characterises Melchizedek as greater than God for it says that "he has no beginning of days nor end of life"; Whereas, God is merely the "First".

I'm impressed with your knowledge of Scripture Ahmed1.

Melchizedek is a "type". "Types" may be something which Muslims do not have in the Qu'ran?

"Types" are a wonderful way in which the Eternal God teaches us His truth.

Melchizedek is a "type" of Christ. But in order to accept this, you have to believe that His sacrifice happened. Otherwise you won't get it.

Christ is a High Priest "after the order of Melchizedek" because Christ was descended from the line of Judah. Christ was not descended from the Levitical priesthood.

Christ's human genealogy therefore would not allow Him to be a Priest at all.

Yet the Eternal God swore with an oath that Christ would be a Priest "after the order of Melchizedek".

So Christ is our mediator (Priest) - NOT BECAUSE OF HIS HUMAN LINEAGE - but because of a far greater reason - because He was divinely appointed that role by the Eternal God.

Christ is a Priest "without father and without mother".

Some Christians say this refers to the pre-existent Christ - though I'm not 100% convinced of this.

Christ has many Names in Scripture. He is indeed "The First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega". But this doesn't contradict His role as The Great High Priest.

Islam has no such way of salvation.
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#9 EliYah

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 11:02 AM

Christ is not WITHOUT MOTHER!

Christ is not WITHOUT BEGINNING OF DAYS!

And if it is supposed that Christ must be the son of God because he had no father, Adam had neither father or mother. Adam ought to be the greater miracle, according to that logic, making Adam the son of God. Adam fits the Melchizedech type better than Christ does (but Christ doesn't fit it).

How could God have a son anyway? Is God a sexual being with sexual organs like us? What gender is God? Astaghfirullah! Offspring is for mankind and animalkind. 'God's ways are not our ways'.

What did God say to David concerning Solomon (don't twist this, it must have a meaning at the time whether there's a secondary meaning or not)? I SHALL BE HIS FATHER AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. And so Solomon is a son of God. I say A son, not THE son, because God either has NO son or MANY sons. And that Christ never exclusively claimed to be the son of God.

Consider the following miraculous births:

Adam (no father, no mother)

Isaac (Abraham and Sarai were old)

Samson (Menoah and his wife were past childbearing)

Samuel (Hannah was barren)

John the Baptist (Zacharia and Elizabeth not likely to have child)

*Jesus Christ* (Mary was a virgin and had known no man)

God who created Adam out of earth, could easily create Jesus in the womb of Mary, why should it be supposed that despite the superiority of Adam's creation as a miracle, he was never called 'the son of God' yet Jesus' birth, still miraculous, but on a lesser scale, should be called 'the son of God'? If Jesus is, then Adam is.

And if Adam was the son of God, or Jesus was the son of God merely because God made them, and because they originated from God then Eve was the daughter of Adam, was she? Or was Eve 'the daughter of God'? making her sister of Christ?

You lack the faith to believe that God can do whatever he wishes. The Quran describes the birth of Jesus as the creation... all Allah has to say is 'Be' and it is. Thus Allah said 'Be', and Jesus appeared in Mary's womb. (A hadith relates that the angel breathed down her sleeve).

Besides, the Quran challenges the reader to find MUCH contradiction, MUCH discrepancy. It has not been found. Yes, ignorant people will always find contradictions where there are none, against any old thing, but not MANY contradictions (which cannot be interpreted any other way).

That must qualify a contradiction anyhow, if one finds what looks like a contradiction but finds that by another form of interpretation the contradiction disappears, this does not stand as a contradiction, as referred to in this Quranic challenge.

Skeptics will find contradictions in anything, they use the method of assuming that the reader is stupid and that if a stupid reader cannot understand it, then it is to be done away with, for all stupid people should be able to understand the message of God, apparently.

No, the many contradictions that you must find in the Quran must be of the type that no possible argument can be brought forward by ANYONE EVER, that resolves it (please, this is within reason, God gave us intelligence and logical discernment, we must use it). There are no such contradictions in the Quran. It is a book which is CONSISTENT WITH ITSELF, and stands the test of time, and has been preserved with its original message.

Nobody has actually raised any on this forum yet. Any that have been raised have been resolved, by the embarassing fact that the people raising them hadn't a clue what they were on about.

#10 Fortigurn

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 02:34 PM

God who created Adam out of earth, could easily create Jesus in the womb of Mary, why should it be supposed that despite the superiority of Adam's creation as a miracle, he was never called 'the son of God'...

Luke 3:
38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.


Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

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target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
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‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#11 Fortigurn

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 02:35 PM

Thus Allah said 'Be', and Jesus appeared in Mary's womb. (A hadith relates that the angel breathed down her sleeve).

I suggest the angel was in the wrong place to be useful.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#12 Adanac

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 05:53 PM

Ahmed, are you going to respond to our responses to your objections or not? What about the doctrine of God manifestation? What do you make of it?
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#13 Adanac

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 06:01 PM

Christ is not WITHOUT MOTHER!

Christ is not WITHOUT BEGINNING OF DAYS!

And if it is supposed that Christ must be the son of God because he had no father, Adam had neither father or mother. Adam ought to be the greater miracle, according to that logic, making Adam the son of God. Adam fits the Melchizedech type better than Christ does (but Christ doesn't fit it).

Hebrews 7 is very simple. It is not saying Melchizedek had no parents. It is not saying Jesus had no parents. It is not saying Melchizedek never died. It's saying none of those things. What it is saying is that Melchizedek's priesthood is not dependent on his lineage and age because those things are not mentioned in the text. Undoubdetly Melchizedek did have parents but they are not important as to his priesthood. This is in contrast to the Levitical priesthood which did depend on these things, as is brought out in the chapter.

As for Adam being called the son of God and Jesus also, here's the difference. It's like Abraham. He had two sons - Ishmael and Isaac. But in Genesis 22 it says that Isaac is Abraham's only son. And Jesus is called God's only son despite Adam. Why? Because Jesus did the will of God and Adam didn't. More below:

How could God have a son anyway?  Is God a sexual being with sexual organs like us?  What gender is God?  Astaghfirullah!  Offspring is for mankind and animalkind.  'God's ways are not our ways'.


God is not interested in biology. He does not count sonship based on biological relationship. He bases it on whether a person does the will of their father. Abraham's children are those who have his faith. God's children are those who obey him. I don't know why you don't know this since you were brought up as a Christadelphian.
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#14 EliYah

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 06:29 PM

You christadelphians are shooting yourselves in the foot anyway.

1) Fortigurn tries to prove that ADAM IS THE SON OF GOD. In which case he has at least 2 sons, Adam and Jesus Christ (peace be upon them).

2) 'Hebrews 7 is simple'. Then you go on to interpret as totally figurative, explaining things which it doesn't explain. No, Hebrews 7 is NOT SIMPLE.

3) You say that God is not interested in biology. It is those who are faithful to him which are his sons. Thus GOD HAS AS MANY SONS AS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FAITHFUL TO GOD. As this shows, not just Jesus was the son of God, but also ABRAHAM and ISAAC, how about David and Moses etc.?

Something on which you may disagree is the end of Adam (peace be upon him). In the Quran, we see Adam repent before he dies and turn to God, God remembers him among the faithful. The Bible actually excludes him from the spiritual realm, since the record of his life ends soon after his SIN. That is why I would consider Adam as much a son of God as Elijah, for example, whereas you couldn't. The Quran also records that in the end, Solomon was also remembered among the faithful (peace be upon him). Again, perhaps you disagree on this.

#15 Adanac

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 06:38 PM

You christadelphians are shooting yourselves in the foot anyway.

1) Fortigurn tries to prove that ADAM IS THE SON OF GOD. In which case he has at least 2 sons, Adam and Jesus Christ (peace be upon them).

Did you read my post? Only Jesus is counted as a son because he is the one who did the will of his father.

2) 'Hebrews 7 is simple'.  Then you go on to interpret as totally figurative, explaining things which it doesn't explain.  No, Hebrews 7 is NOT SIMPLE.


:P What was so difficult in what I said? Have you read Hebrews 7 in context?

3) You say that God is not interested in biology.  It is those who are faithful to him which are his sons.  Thus GOD HAS AS MANY SONS AS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FAITHFUL TO GOD.


Yes. We have the privilege of being called the sons of God.

As this shows, not just Jesus was the son of God, but also ABRAHAM and ISAAC, how about David and Moses etc.?


Jesus is the only son of God by virtue of his perfect life. We are adopted as sons of God by being members of his body.

Something on which you may disagree is the end of Adam (peace be upon him).  In the Quran, we see Adam repent before he dies and turn to God, God remembers him among the faithful.  The Bible actually excludes him from the spiritual realm, since the record of his life ends soon after his SIN.  That is why I would consider Adam as much a son of God as Elijah, for example, whereas you couldn't.


Why couldn't we? Just because there is no record after Genesis 3 doesn't mean he didn't repent. In fact Genesis 3 shows that God forgave him by providing a covering. I have no idea what happened to Adam.

The Quran also records that in the end, Solomon was also remembered among the faithful (peace be upon him).  Again, perhaps you disagree on this. 


I have no idea whether Solomon repented.
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#16 Huldah

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 09:02 PM

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"Dear friends, if our conscience does not condemn us, we have confidence in the presence of God and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing to him. Now this is his commandment: that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he gave us the commandment. And the person who keeps his commandments resides in God, and God in him. Now by this we know that God resides in us: by the Spirit he has given us"
1 John 3.21-24

#17 Dawn

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 09:40 PM

Christ is not WITHOUT MOTHER!

Christ is not WITHOUT BEGINNING OF DAYS!

I know that. Miriam was His mother of the line of Judah (not the Levitical line) and Yahweh was His Father.

I meant regarding Christ's role as a priest. He is not descended from the Levitical priesthood - so in the sense of His role of Priest He has no human ancestry. I thought every CD knew that?
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#18 Nada

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 10:28 PM

Hi Dondawn,

You said: ""Eloah" is the singular. "Elohim" in the plural"

but the difference is that "Elohim" doesn't mean that plural which shows the number as you have in your language. This plural is used to show the greatness of God. This kind of plural doesn't found in English language but it is found in Hebbrow, Arabic, urdu. Like the pronoun "we" in English ,you just use it to show the numbers but in Arabic you can use it to show greatness while the speaker is one.

So in Hebrrow "Elohim" doesn't mean gods but it means the great God. And you can't apply this in English because this structure is not in English language.

And you can't apply this structure to this verse:

" "I said, You are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High."
(Psalm 82:1)

or it will be like this: "I said, you are God, and all of God are children of the Most high."

So, the verse realy mean many gods not one. And according to this it contradicts other verses.

So, since there are verses which says that there are only one God and also there are other verses which say that there is many gods, there are a clear contradictions.


You said: " Christ has many Names in Scripture. He is indeed "The First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega". But this doesn't contradict His role as The Great High Priest."

And there is the verse In the Bible that say:
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6

so now who is the first and the last? This is also another contradiction.
"Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (ie Islâm) with wisdom (ie with the Divine Inspiration and the Qur'ân) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided" (Qur'an 16:125)

"There is no compulsion in religion Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path Whoever disbelieves in Tâghűt and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower" (Quran 2:256)

"Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qűb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qűb (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Műsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)" (Quran 2:136)

#19 Dawn

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 10:40 PM

So, since there are verses which says that there are only one God and also there are other verses which say that there is many gods, there are a clear contradictions.


You said: " Christ has many Names in Scripture. He is indeed "The First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega". But this doesn't contradict His role as The Great High Priest."

And there is the verse In the Bible that say:
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6

so now who is the first and the last? This is also another contradiction.

No - there are no contradictions. There is only One God. Christianity (and Judaism) has and is a monotheistic faith.

In the Hebrew Scriptures there are what are known as the "prophetic oracles".

Isaiah was a prophet and when he wrote "I am the First and the Last, beside me there is no God" it was an Eternal Principle which was fulfilled in the manifestation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Lord Jesus (who Muslims believe to be a prophet) said this:
"I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Revelation 22:13)

Is Jesus a liar?

There is no contradiction: Christ is the Son of God (God manifest) as the First and the Last.

Jesus was also Jewish. He is not Muslim. Jesus Himself said "I am the root and offspring of David".

Jesus was born and Jew, died a Jew, rose from the dead as a Jew, and is coming back to earth as a Jew to reign on David's throne in Jerusalem.

That is why Muslims hate the Jews and are anti-Semitic, and anti-Christ.

Edited by dondawn, 12 February 2005 - 11:01 PM.

"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#20 Fortigurn

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 08:44 AM

You christadelphians are shooting yourselves in the foot anyway.

1) Fortigurn tries to prove that ADAM IS THE SON OF GOD.  In which case he has at least 2 sons, Adam and Jesus Christ (peace be upon them).

I showing that the claim EliYahmade (that Adam was never called the son of God'), is untrue.

I wasn't trying to say that Adam was the son of God in the same way as Christ.

As it happens, we're all sons and daughters of God if we're in Christ anyway.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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target="_blank">Apologetics

#21 Ahmed1

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 02:10 PM

God who created Adam out of earth, could easily create Jesus in the womb of Mary, why should it be supposed that despite the superiority of Adam's creation as a miracle, he was never called 'the son of God'...

Luke 3:
38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

So, that means all humankind are sons of God(spw).

#22 Fortigurn

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 02:25 PM

God who created Adam out of earth, could easily create Jesus in the womb of Mary, why should it be supposed that despite the superiority of Adam's creation as a miracle, he was never called 'the son of God'...

Luke 3:
38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

So, that means all humankind are sons of God(spw).

Adam was a son of God in that God was directly and miraculously involved in his creation.

Christ was a son of God for the same reason.

Israel as a nation was considered the son of God in that God caused the nation to come into being.

We are only counted sons of God in a spiritual sense, if we demonstrate the character of God.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#23 Nada

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 02:56 PM

Is Jesus a liar?

Hi dondawn,
No, Jesus peace be upon him is not a lier.NOWAY!

But I can't believe that this verse is Jesus word because he won't say anything which contradicts God word. How could be two things be the first and the last?
"Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (ie Islâm) with wisdom (ie with the Divine Inspiration and the Qur'ân) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided" (Qur'an 16:125)

"There is no compulsion in religion Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path Whoever disbelieves in Tâghűt and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower" (Quran 2:256)

"Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qűb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qűb (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Műsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)" (Quran 2:136)

#24 Nada

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 03:00 PM

That is why Muslims hate the Jews and are anti-Semitic, and anti-Christ.

HOw could Muslim be anti-Semitic while Arabs themselves are semitic? :shy:
"Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (ie Islâm) with wisdom (ie with the Divine Inspiration and the Qur'ân) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided" (Qur'an 16:125)

"There is no compulsion in religion Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path Whoever disbelieves in Tâghűt and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower" (Quran 2:256)

"Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qűb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qűb (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Műsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)" (Quran 2:136)

#25 EliYah

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 03:08 PM

Fortigurn, since you are comfortable with the concepts which you have outlined, please would you state the following back to me? I trust you will have no objection, since all those 'in Christ are his sons and daughters'. Please say,

I AM FORTIGURN. GOD IS MY FATHER AND I AM HIS DAUGHTER.



Thankyou.

#26 EliYah

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 03:11 PM

Also, regarding Dondawn and Nada's discussions on the plurality of God, Elohim.

Nada is talking of PLURALIS MAJESTICUS.

I say this, just to warn others of accusing her of innovation, or that it is groundless. It certainly is not.

It was seen as more respectful to address a person in the plural form than in the singular.

#27 Dawn

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 05:10 PM



Is Jesus a liar?

Hi dondawn,
No, Jesus peace be upon him is not a lier.NOWAY!

But I can't believe that this verse is Jesus word because he won't say anything which contradicts God word. How could be two things be the first and the last?

I'm please you believe that Jesus cannot lie. That is good.

But He DID say "I am the First and the Last" - He REALLY DID! It's in the Book of Revelation.

Do you have a Bible? If so - look it up for yourself Revevlatio (the last book in the Bible) Chapter 22, verse 13. They are the words of Jesus Himself.

He's is not contradicting Himself: what He is saying has to be spiritually discerned so you may not be able to pick it up just yet.

It is a "loaded" quote full of many wonderful truths: Jesus is the First - He is the Firstborn of the New Creation. Jesus is the Last - He is the Last Adam.

It's simple really - in fact, it's so simple you can miss it.

There's probably a lot more to it, but that's how I sum it up. Maybe some other CD could put in their views too.
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#28 Dawn

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 05:12 PM


That is why Muslims hate the Jews and are anti-Semitic, and anti-Christ.

HOw could Muslim be anti-Semitic while Arabs themselves are semitic? :shy:

Nada - this is very discerning of you.

You are right in fact: Arab people ARE semitic and descended from "Shem".

Quite right.

What I meant was "anti-Jewish".
"....when you Think of Things, you find sometimes that the Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it" (A A Milne)


"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Philippians 2:3

#29 Nada

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 06:24 PM

Also, regarding Dondawn and Nada's discussions on the plurality of God, Elohim.

Nada is talking of PLURALIS MAJESTICUS.

I say this, just to warn others of accusing her of innovation, or that it is groundless. It certainly is not.

It was seen as more respectful to address a person in the plural form than in the singular.

Thanks Eliyah,

really what i mean is PLURALIS MAJESTICUS :shy: . you now, English language is not my native language, so i commit many mistakes to express my idea.

Thanks again
"Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (ie Islâm) with wisdom (ie with the Divine Inspiration and the Qur'ân) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided" (Qur'an 16:125)

"There is no compulsion in religion Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path Whoever disbelieves in Tâghűt and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower" (Quran 2:256)

"Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qűb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qűb (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Műsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)" (Quran 2:136)

#30 scitsofreaky

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 06:28 PM

dawn- I think what they are getting at is that the writers claim that this is what Jesus said. You can interpret that verse different ways, and you can't know which way was the intended interpretation. Very confusing.
"There is not a truth existing which I fear, or which I would not want known to the whole world."
-Thomas Jefferson

"Without Faith, Reason is Cold... but without Reason Faith is Blind"-- David Pyle




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