5 replies to this topic

[Evangelion]

There are three main Hebrew words which the KJV has translated as "LORD", "Lord", and "lord", respectively.

• The first is Yahweh, which is (a) the Name of God (also known as the Tetragrammaton), (b) reserved for God and His representative angel, and © never applied to mortal men. The KJV translates it as "LORD", and sometimes (though rarely) as "GOD", in cases where it is preceded by Adonai.
  
  
• The second is Adonai, which is (a) reserved for God and His representative angel, and (b) never applied to mortal men. The KJV translates it as "Lord."
  
  
• The third is adon (sometimes written as adoni), which is used about 195 times in the OT, and applied to mortal men, angels, and God. The vast majority of cases refer to mortal men, and the KJV translates it as "lord."

In order to demonstrate the importance of these separate titles, I would like to quote from a book which was written by two Biblical Unitarians:

The Hebrew Bible itself, carefully distinguishes the divine title adonai, the Supreme Lord, from adoni, the form of address appropriate to human and angelic superiors. Adoni, “my lord”, on no occasion refers to the Deity. Adonai, on the other hand, is the special form of adon, “Lord”, reserved for address to the One God only. No less than 195 times in the Hebrew canon adoni marks the person addressed as the recipient of honour but never as the Supreme God.

This important fact tells us that the Hebrew Scriptures expected the Messiah to be not God, but the human descendent of David, whom David properly recognises as his lord. The translators of the LXX in the 3rd Century BC attest to a careful distinction between the forms of adon used for divine and human reference by translating adoni as ho kurios mou, “my lord.” In Psalm 110:5 the divine title adonai and the LXX renders adonai, as usual, kurios. The Lord (God) of verse 5 is thus sharply distinguished from David’s human lord, the Messiah (verse 1.)

For an analysis of the occurrances of adoni, see Herbert Bateman’s “Psalm 110:1 and the New Testament”, Bibliotheca Sacra 149, (1992) pages 438-453. The author, a Trinitarian, argues that the Psalm cannot apply primarily to Jesus because adoni describes a human Messiah! Bateman’s Trinitarianism causes him to dismiss the obvious direct Messianic reference of this Psalm.

Jesus had no doubt that he was that “lord” (Matthew 22:41-45), and he knew that he was not the One God. Neither the Hebrew nor the Greek of the Septuagint and the New Testament will permit that “lord” to be “Very God.” Both Testaments unite, therefore, against Trinitarianism. Ephesians 1:17 reaffirms this by declaring that the one Lord God is also “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Even Trinitarians cannot accept the idea that one “person” of the Trinity actually has another “person” of the Trinity as his “God”, and yet that is the very problem they face when this passage is raised.
Hunting, Charles & Buzzard, Anthony (1999), The Doctrine of the Trinity - Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound.

Buzzard and Hunting are both prominent academics. They used to be strict Trinitarians, believing and teaching the Trinitarian dogma for more than 20 years before converting to Biblical Unitarianism.

Take careful note of their reference to Bateman - the Trinitarian scholar. They reveal the subjectivity of the Trinitarian method by demonstrating that Bateman was prepared to reject Psalm 110 as a Messianic psalm because it did not match his Christological preconceptions!

What does this tell you about Trinitarian exegesis? I know what it tells me!

[EliYah]

I would agree with these points.

But... please indicate to me how it is true to say that 'lord' (in that form exactly) is ever used of Yahweh himself? Is it not used restrictively of men?

Another thing...when you say that these forms appear in this form and mean this and that - you are referring to the Old Testament, yes? For this is something which I have given much thought in regards the New Testament. For it ought to be noticed that ,LORD', 'Lord' and 'lord' are NOT translated consistently according to the pattern you outlined, in the New Testament.

For example, When quoting from the Old Testament the writer of the book of Acts says, 'The LORD said unto my Lord', this is correct and in keeping with fact, for here the LORD refers to Yahweh and Lord to Adon (which we know is Yahshua himself, the son of Yahweh). However, such a clear distinction between the use of the word 'lord' (Gr.kurios) is NOT found everywhere, or even in most instances.

Thus there are many places in the New Testament where it takes a little investigation or time to work out whether its use of 'Lord' refers to Yahweh or the Messiah himself! I personally think that this is an unfortanute thing in the AV - for had the translators continued in the consistent pattern they set up in the Old Testament, when translating the New, the Scriptures as a whole would undoubtedly become more united and easier and clearer to understand.

If 'LORD' meant Yahweh (which it only can do, in both testaments)

If 'Lord' meant Adon/ai (Yahshua)

If 'lord' meant Adon/ai (men)

So, far from suggesting that the Hebrew names should be superimposed in the New testament (which would not be wrong anyhow, just unneccessary in this case), I am saying that the deliberate choice of form for the word 'lord' in the New Testament could enhance the reader's understanding of the matter.

For example, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD (Lord in KJV/AV - but quoting Ps. refers to YHWH name)'. I hope you see my point.

And I do recognize that no such translation actually exists, to my knowledge, and that discussing it on the internet won't make one magically appear. Nevertheless, I find it interesting and I hope that you are able to answer my first, if not second also, question.

EliYah

[OneGod]

Evangelion, on Jan 2 2003, 09:58 PM, said:

There are three main Hebrew words which the KJV has translated as "LORD", "Lord", and "lord", respectively.

• The first is Yahweh, which is (a) the Name of God (also known as the Tetragrammaton), (b) reserved for God and His representative angel, and © never applied to mortal men. The KJV translates it as "LORD", and sometimes (though rarely) as "GOD", in cases where it is preceded by Adonai.
  
• The second is Adonai, which is (a) reserved for God and His representative angel, and (b) never applied to mortal men. The KJV translates it as "Lord."
  
• The third is adon (sometimes written as adoni), which is used about 195 times in the OT, and applied to mortal men, angels, and God. The vast majority of cases refer to mortal men, and the KJV translates it as "lord."

In order to demonstrate the importance of these separate titles, I would like to quote from a book which was written by two Biblical Unitarians:

The Hebrew Bible itself, carefully distinguishes the divine title <span style='color:red'>adonai</span>, the Supreme Lord, from <span style='color:red'>adoni</span>, the form of address appropriate to human and angelic superiors. Adoni, “my lord”, on no occasion refers to the Deity. <span style='color:red'>Adonai</span>, on the other hand, is the special form of adon, “Lord”, reserved for address to the One God only. <span style='color:red'>No less than 195 times in the Hebrew canon adoni marks the person addressed as the recipient of honour but never as the Supreme God.</span>

This important fact tells us that the Hebrew Scriptures expected the Messiah to be not God, but the human descendent of David, whom David properly recognises as his lord. <span style='color:red'>The translators of the LXX in the 3rd Century BC attest to a careful distinction between the forms of adon used for divine and human reference by translating adoni as ho kurios mou, “my lord.” In Psalm 110:5 the divine title adonai and the LXX renders adonai, as usual, kurios. The Lord (God) of verse 5 is thus sharply distinguished from David’s human lord, the Messiah (verse 1.)</span>

For an analysis of the occurrances of adoni, see Herbert Bateman’s “Psalm 110:1 and the New Testament”, Bibliotheca Sacra 149, (1992) pages 438-453. <span style='color:red'>The author, a Trinitarian, argues that the Psalm cannot apply primarily to Jesus because adoni describes a human Messiah! Bateman’s Trinitarianism causes him to dismiss the obvious direct Messianic reference of this Psalm.</span>

Jesus had no doubt that he was that “lord” (Matthew 22:41-45), and he knew that he was not the One God. Neither the Hebrew nor the Greek of the Septuagint and the New Testament will permit that “lord” to be “Very God.” Both Testaments unite, therefore, against Trinitarianism. Ephesians 1:17 reaffirms this by declaring that the one Lord God is also “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Even Trinitarians cannot accept the idea that one “person” of the Trinity actually has another “person” of the Trinity as his “God”, and yet that is the very problem they face when this passage is raised.
Hunting, Charles & Buzzard, Anthony (1999), The Doctrine of the Trinity - Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound.

Buzzard and Hunting are both prominent academics. They used to be strict Trinitarians, believing and teaching the Trinitarian dogma for more than 20 years before converting to Biblical Unitarianism.

Take careful note of their reference to Bateman - the Trinitarian scholar. They reveal the subjectivity of the Trinitarian method by demonstrating that Bateman was prepared to reject Psalm 110 as a Messianic psalm because it did not match his Christological preconceptions!

What does this tell you about Trinitarian exegesis? I know what it tells me!

Greetings All,

I provided a Trinitarian I was debating the above article and he responded with the following points.

Is there anyone able to offer a detailed point by point counter refutation of his erroneous comments?

My Kindest regards to you all!


Answer:

"It isn’t merely the fact that Jesus is addressed as Kurios that leads Christians to believe he is Yahweh, but the manner in which the NT writers use this Greek word for Christ that leads them to this conclusion.

For instance, the Hebrew Scriptures teach that salvation comes from calling on the name of Yahweh:

"And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls." Joel 2:32

Yet according to the NT, believers are to call on the name of the Lord Jesus for salvation:

"Then he said: ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’" Acts 22:14-16

"That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, ‘Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.’ For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’" Romans 10:9-13

NT Christians even prayed to Jesus the same way OT believers prayed to Yahweh:

"Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called upon the name of the LORD, the Eternal God." Genesis 21:33 – 12:8

"Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of truth." Psalm 31:5

"Moses and Aaron were among his priests, Samuel was among those who called on his name; they called on the LORD and he answered them." Psalm 99:6

"While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ Then he fell on his knees and cried out, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ When he had said this, he fell asleep." Acts 7:59-60

"To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:" 1 Corinthians 1:2

The NT further says that every knee wil bend to Jesus as Lord just as they do to Yahweh:

"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear." Isaiah 45:22-23

"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:9-11

There are other factors which further substantiate that the NT writers were identifying Jesus as Yahweh when they called him Kurios or Lord.

For example, like Yahweh Jesus is Lord of lords and King of kings:

"For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes." Deuteronomy 10:17

"Give thanks to the Lord of lords: His love endures forever." Psalm 136:3

"and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood," Revelation 1:5

"They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Revelation 17:14

"On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." Revelation 19:16

Like Yahweh, Jesus has prophets who prophesy in his name:

"If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, ‘How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?’ If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:19-22

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" Matthew 7:21-23

And just like Yahweh Jesus is the Sovereign Lord of all:

"To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it." Deuteronomy 10:14

"See, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth will go into the Jordan ahead of you… And as soon as the priests who carry the ark of the LORD -the Lord of all the earth—set foot in the Jordan, its waters flowing downstream will be cut off and stand up in a heap." Joshua 3:11, 13

"Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.’" Matthew 28:18

"You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all." Acts 10:36

"If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living." Romans 14:8-9

Finally, but not least, Jesus as Lord is the Agent and Sustainer of creation:

"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through (di’) whom all things came and through whom (di’ auto) we live." 1 Corinthians 8:6

"He [God the Father] also says, ‘In the beginning, O Lord [Jesus], you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.’" Hebrews 1:10-12

A function which the Bible ascribes to Yahweh, the one God:

"This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself," Isaiah 44:24

"So I said: ‘Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations. In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. But you remain the same, and your years will never end." Psalm 102:24-27

"For from him and through him (di’ auto) and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen." Romans 11:36

"In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for (di’) whom and through (di’) whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10

The foregoing makes it rather obvious that the NT writers weren’t simply calling Jesus Lord in the sense of one with great rank or authority. Rather, the inspired authors of Holy Scripture clearly intended to convey the idea that Jesus is Lord in the sense of being Yahweh God Almighty."

Edited by OneGod, 27 April 2007 - 12:49 AM.

[Steven]

OneGod, on Apr 27 2007, 01:48 AM, said:

The foregoing makes it rather obvious that the NT writers weren’t simply calling Jesus Lord in the sense of one with great rank or authority. Rather, the inspired authors of Holy Scripture clearly intended to convey the idea that Jesus is Lord in the sense of being Yahweh God Almighty."

Hi One God
On that basis David is Yahweh because he's called "king"...

The best answer is the simple answer: "The Lord said to my Lord" There's no Trinitarian loophole out of that one.

Nor this: Ephesians 5:20 "giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Nor the four "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" verses.
God bless
S.

[OneGod]

OneGod, on Apr 27 2007, 10:48 AM, said:

Evangelion, on Jan 2 2003, 09:58 PM, said:

There are three main Hebrew words which the KJV has translated as "LORD", "Lord", and "lord", respectively.

• The first is Yahweh, which is (a) the Name of God (also known as the Tetragrammaton), (b) reserved for God and His representative angel, and © never applied to mortal men. The KJV translates it as "LORD", and sometimes (though rarely) as "GOD", in cases where it is preceded by Adonai.
  
• The second is Adonai, which is (a) reserved for God and His representative angel, and (b) never applied to mortal men. The KJV translates it as "Lord."
  
• The third is adon (sometimes written as adoni), which is used about 195 times in the OT, and applied to mortal men, angels, and God. The vast majority of cases refer to mortal men, and the KJV translates it as "lord."

In order to demonstrate the importance of these separate titles, I would like to quote from a book which was written by two Biblical Unitarians:

The Hebrew Bible itself, carefully distinguishes the divine title <span style='color:red'>adonai</span>, the Supreme Lord, from <span style='color:red'>adoni</span>, the form of address appropriate to human and angelic superiors. Adoni, “my lord”, on no occasion refers to the Deity. <span style='color:red'>Adonai</span>, on the other hand, is the special form of adon, “Lord”, reserved for address to the One God only. <span style='color:red'>No less than 195 times in the Hebrew canon adoni marks the person addressed as the recipient of honour but never as the Supreme God.</span>

This important fact tells us that the Hebrew Scriptures expected the Messiah to be not God, but the human descendent of David, whom David properly recognises as his lord. <span style='color:red'>The translators of the LXX in the 3rd Century BC attest to a careful distinction between the forms of adon used for divine and human reference by translating adoni as ho kurios mou, “my lord.” In Psalm 110:5 the divine title adonai and the LXX renders adonai, as usual, kurios. The Lord (God) of verse 5 is thus sharply distinguished from David’s human lord, the Messiah (verse 1.)</span>

For an analysis of the occurrances of adoni, see Herbert Bateman’s “Psalm 110:1 and the New Testament”, Bibliotheca Sacra 149, (1992) pages 438-453. <span style='color:red'>The author, a Trinitarian, argues that the Psalm cannot apply primarily to Jesus because adoni describes a human Messiah! Bateman’s Trinitarianism causes him to dismiss the obvious direct Messianic reference of this Psalm.</span>

Jesus had no doubt that he was that “lord” (Matthew 22:41-45), and he knew that he was not the One God. Neither the Hebrew nor the Greek of the Septuagint and the New Testament will permit that “lord” to be “Very God.” Both Testaments unite, therefore, against Trinitarianism. Ephesians 1:17 reaffirms this by declaring that the one Lord God is also “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Even Trinitarians cannot accept the idea that one “person” of the Trinity actually has another “person” of the Trinity as his “God”, and yet that is the very problem they face when this passage is raised.
Hunting, Charles & Buzzard, Anthony (1999), The Doctrine of the Trinity - Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound.

Buzzard and Hunting are both prominent academics. They used to be strict Trinitarians, believing and teaching the Trinitarian dogma for more than 20 years before converting to Biblical Unitarianism.

Take careful note of their reference to Bateman - the Trinitarian scholar. They reveal the subjectivity of the Trinitarian method by demonstrating that Bateman was prepared to reject Psalm 110 as a Messianic psalm because it did not match his Christological preconceptions!

What does this tell you about Trinitarian exegesis? I know what it tells me!

Greetings All,

I provided a Trinitarian I was debating the above article and he responded with the following points.

Is there anyone able to offer a detailed point by point counter refutation of his erroneous comments?

My Kindest regards to you all!


Answer:

"It isn’t merely the fact that Jesus is addressed as Kurios that leads Christians to believe he is Yahweh, but the manner in which the NT writers use this Greek word for Christ that leads them to this conclusion.

For instance, the Hebrew Scriptures teach that salvation comes from calling on the name of Yahweh:

"And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls." Joel 2:32

Yet according to the NT, believers are to call on the name of the Lord Jesus for salvation:

"Then he said: ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’" Acts 22:14-16

"That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, ‘Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.’ For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’" Romans 10:9-13

NT Christians even prayed to Jesus the same way OT believers prayed to Yahweh:

"Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called upon the name of the LORD, the Eternal God." Genesis 21:33 – 12:8

"Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of truth." Psalm 31:5

"Moses and Aaron were among his priests, Samuel was among those who called on his name; they called on the LORD and he answered them." Psalm 99:6

"While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ Then he fell on his knees and cried out, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ When he had said this, he fell asleep." Acts 7:59-60

"To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:" 1 Corinthians 1:2

The NT further says that every knee wil bend to Jesus as Lord just as they do to Yahweh:

"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear." Isaiah 45:22-23

"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:9-11

There are other factors which further substantiate that the NT writers were identifying Jesus as Yahweh when they called him Kurios or Lord.

For example, like Yahweh Jesus is Lord of lords and King of kings:

"For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes." Deuteronomy 10:17

"Give thanks to the Lord of lords: His love endures forever." Psalm 136:3

"and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood," Revelation 1:5

"They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Revelation 17:14

"On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." Revelation 19:16

Like Yahweh, Jesus has prophets who prophesy in his name:

"If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, ‘How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?’ If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:19-22

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" Matthew 7:21-23

And just like Yahweh Jesus is the Sovereign Lord of all:

"To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it." Deuteronomy 10:14

"See, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth will go into the Jordan ahead of you… And as soon as the priests who carry the ark of the LORD -the Lord of all the earth—set foot in the Jordan, its waters flowing downstream will be cut off and stand up in a heap." Joshua 3:11, 13

"Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.’" Matthew 28:18

"You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all." Acts 10:36

"If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living." Romans 14:8-9

Finally, but not least, Jesus as Lord is the Agent and Sustainer of creation:

"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through (di’) whom all things came and through whom (di’ auto) we live." 1 Corinthians 8:6

"He [God the Father] also says, ‘In the beginning, O Lord [Jesus], you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.’" Hebrews 1:10-12

A function which the Bible ascribes to Yahweh, the one God:

"This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself," Isaiah 44:24

"So I said: ‘Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations. In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. But you remain the same, and your years will never end." Psalm 102:24-27

"For from him and through him (di’ auto) and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen." Romans 11:36

"In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for (di’) whom and through (di’) whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10

The foregoing makes it rather obvious that the NT writers weren’t simply calling Jesus Lord in the sense of one with great rank or authority. Rather, the inspired authors of Holy Scripture clearly intended to convey the idea that Jesus is Lord in the sense of being Yahweh God Almighty."

Does anyone know any direct refutations to the above Trinitarians postulations on this forum?

regards,

OneGod......

[Lectron]

OneGod, on Aug 19 2007, 02:01 AM, said:

OneGod, on Apr 27 2007, 10:48 AM, said:

Greetings All,

I provided a Trinitarian I was debating the above article and he responded with the following points.

Is there anyone able to offer a detailed point by point counter refutation of his erroneous comments?

My Kindest regards to you all!


Answer:

"It isn’t merely the fact that Jesus is addressed as Kurios that leads Christians to believe he is Yahweh, but the manner in which the NT writers use this Greek word for Christ that leads them to this conclusion.




[1] For instance, the Hebrew Scriptures teach that salvation comes from calling on the name of Yahweh:





"And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls." Joel 2:32

Yet according to the NT, believers are to call on the name of the Lord Jesus for salvation:

"Then he said: ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’" Acts 22:14-16

"That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, ‘Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.’ For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’" Romans 10:9-13

NT Christians even prayed to Jesus the same way OT believers prayed to Yahweh:

"Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called upon the name of the LORD, the Eternal God." Genesis 21:33 – 12:8

"Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of truth." Psalm 31:5

"Moses and Aaron were among his priests, Samuel was among those who called on his name; they called on the LORD and he answered them." Psalm 99:6

"While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ Then he fell on his knees and cried out, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ When he had said this, he fell asleep." Acts 7:59-60

"To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:" 1 Corinthians 1:2

The NT further says that every knee wil bend to Jesus as Lord just as they do to Yahweh:

"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear." Isaiah 45:22-23

"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:9-11



[2] There are other factors which further substantiate that the NT writers were identifying Jesus as Yahweh when they called him Kurios or Lord.



a] For example, like Yahweh Jesus is Lord of lords and King of kings:



"For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes." Deuteronomy 10:17

"Give thanks to the Lord of lords: His love endures forever." Psalm 136:3

"and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood," Revelation 1:5

"They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Revelation 17:14

"On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." Revelation 19:16

Like Yahweh, Jesus has prophets who prophesy in his name:

"If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, ‘How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?’ If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:19-22

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" Matthew 7:21-23





b] And just like Yahweh Jesus is the Sovereign Lord of all:



"To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it." Deuteronomy 10:14

"See, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth will go into the Jordan ahead of you… And as soon as the priests who carry the ark of the LORD -the Lord of all the earth—set foot in the Jordan, its waters flowing downstream will be cut off and stand up in a heap." Joshua 3:11, 13

"Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.’" Matthew 28:18

"You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all." Acts 10:36

"If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living." Romans 14:8-9

Finally, but not least, Jesus as Lord is the Agent and Sustainer of creation:

"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through (di’) whom all things came and through whom (di’ auto) we live." 1 Corinthians 8:6

"He [God the Father] also says, ‘In the beginning, O Lord [Jesus], you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.’" Hebrews 1:10-12

A function which the Bible ascribes to Yahweh, the one God:

"This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself," Isaiah 44:24

"So I said: ‘Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations. In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. But you remain the same, and your years will never end." Psalm 102:24-27

"For from him and through him (di’ auto) and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen." Romans 11:36

"In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for (di’) whom and through (di’) whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10

The foregoing makes it rather obvious that the NT writers weren’t simply calling Jesus Lord in the sense of one with great rank or authority. Rather, the inspired authors of Holy Scripture clearly intended to convey the idea that Jesus is Lord in the sense of being Yahweh God Almighty."

Does anyone know any direct refutations to the above Trinitarians postulations on this forum?

regards,

OneGod......

Here are some thoughts which may be helpful in breaking down this daunting list of scriptures:

1/ Matt 28:18 above when compared with these two quotes from Mark:


Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Mark 10:18

to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. Mark 10:40

comment: The doctrine of Trinity insists Jesus is co-equal and co-existant, but this quote clearly shows that the "all authority" was not present at his ministry and was bestowed after his ressurrection

Further, the "all authority" puts Jesus in the position of a deputy for want of a better word until the end of the millenial reign (1Cor 15:24-28) any other view would not harmonise scripture.
Thus the huge raft of NT quotes equating Jesus a God should be viewed in the light of this.

It is important in OT and NT passages to distinguish between power and authority that is intrinsic and that which is derived.