411 replies to this topic

[Fortigurn]

Holysay, on Dec 5 2004, 05:19 AM, said:

In the bible it has mention many times that he was God.

Where?

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Many called him God and he never said I am not God

Where?

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He said I and my father are one.

He also prayed that his disciples should be one with him and God in the same way that he is one with the Father, so unless we're all going to end up part of the Godhead, then he wasn't saying that he is the same being as his Father.

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God is not with him but in him.

Yes, and God is in us also. But you should be able to see that if God is in him, then he is not God. If the water is the jug, then the water is not the jug.

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So I believe it is ok to say he is God and not just a man.

But calling him God denies he is a man. And as I have pointed out, the apostles kept telling people he was a man.

[mordecai]

scooter, on Dec 4 2004, 12:28 PM, said:

The more I read the faith belief of christadelphians and what is believed, like Jesus isnt a Diety and such, The more confused I get. YsShua was the son of G-D, the first and the last spoken of in the Bible, he is the logos, Melchezadec, and part of the G-Dhead. He is the Messiah, and was the one Moses, Abraham, Issac and all the other sages of the Bible heard, So the idea that YeShua isnt a diety just dont wash it with me, Strange religion this christadelphian religion.

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Strange religion this christadelphian religion.

Thats the sole problem with any religion there is no standard to determine truth, people are free to "look at it" how they want and interpret it to suit their pre-conceptions. It's exactly why I left, everyone just ends up making up their own religion in the end, yes even you.

[Holysay]

Hi Fortigurn, I hope to learn from you. Since I don't have much time right now let me answer some of your questions.

Joh 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe."
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" (Jesus never said Thomas I am not God but instead Jesus said......)
Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Jesus is from above and we are from the dust of the ground. Saying that Jesus is just a man is wrong. Yes, if the water is the jug, then the water is not the jug, but the water can be in the jug, which would be a jug of water just like the son of God. This is why we say Jesus has two nature. He is God and he is man, not just a man. Jesus is called the Son of God, how can he only be a man? I hope I can get you to really understand what i'm trying to say.

Edited by Holysay, 31 January 2005 - 01:40 AM.

[scitsofreaky]

If Jesus is the son of God, then there is no Trinity, by definition. And, if Jesus is still a diety (which I know that some of you say he isn't, but the most christians do), then christianity is no long monotheistic, and therefore, how can any of it be correct?
But, if he wasn't a deity, then he was a perfect man, which cannot exists because of "original sin." So, to be perfect, he must be divine.

[Adanac]

Christadelphians reject the notion of original sin so there is no problem believing he was a perfect man.

[scitsofreaky]

Yeah, I know that, and I really wasn't arguing with you. I was more arguing with anybody that does believe in "original sin."

[Fortigurn]

Holysay, on Dec 6 2004, 03:27 PM, said:

Hi Fortigurn, I hope to learn from you. Let me answer some of your questions since I don't have much time right now.

Joh 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe."
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" (Jesus never said Thomas I am not God but instead Jesus said......)
Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Thomas didn't use the English word 'God', he used a Hebrew word. And that word doesn't necessarily mean 'God'.

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Jesus is from above and we are from the dust of the ground.

The fact that Jesus is from above simply means that God was his Father. It does not mean he is God.

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Saying that Jesus is just a man is wrong.

He isn't 'just a man', he is the son of God.

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Yes, if the water is the jug, then the water is not the jug, but the water can be in the jug, which would be a jug of water just like the son of God.

A jug of water can't be like the son of God, because your analogy requires the jug to be both a jug and water at the same time. If God is in Christ, just as the water is in the jug, then Christ is not God, just as the jug is not the water.

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This is why we say Jesus has two nature.

Where does the Bible say he had two natures? I can find plenty of places which say that he had human nature, and none which say he had Divine nature.

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He is God and he is man, not just a man.

Where does the Bible say 'He is God and he is man'?

As I have shown, when the apostles told people who Jesus was, they always called him a man. They never taught people that he was God.

[scitsofreaky]

Holysay, on Dec 6 2004, 03:27 PM, said:

Joh 20:27  Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe."
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" (Jesus never said Thomas I am not God but instead Jesus said......)
Joh 20:29  Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Thomas didn't use the English word 'God', he used a Hebrew word.  And that word doesn't necessarily mean 'God'.

Do you know what that word was, and what else it means?

Edited by scitsofreaky, 07 December 2004 - 05:17 PM.

[Adanac]

The word “God” denotes power, whether belonging to the one called God or received through authority given to them. Thus, apart from the Deity himself, angels and men can, and are in Scripture, be called God.

As an example see Psalm 82 where men are called God because they (are meant to) represent him as judges in the congregation. And then see how Jesus picks up on this in John 10 where the Jews misunderstood (like Trinitarians) that Jesus was claiming to be Very God.

[scitsofreaky]

Thank you for explaining. But, how do we know then when the Bible is speaking about the God, or just something with power?

[Adanac]

scitsofreaky, on Dec 7 2004, 10:34 AM, said:

Thank you for explaining. But, how do we know then when the Bible is speaking about the God, or just something with power?

Context and explanations from other parts of Scripture.

For example, consider the personage who Moses spoke with on mount Sinai. In Exodus it says that God spoke with him. So did Deity literally come down from heaven and stand with Moses there and converse with him? Other Scriptures tell us that no man can see God and live. It is in Acts 7 that we learn that the one who spoke with Moses and given the title “God” was an angel. That’s because the angel represented Deity. The word “angel” means “messenger”, “agent” or “representative”. It’s just like a company representative today who bears the name/title of the company he represents. Just because he calls you on the telephone and says “hello, this is Colorado Solar Design Inc.” doesn’t mean that he himself is actually that company. He just represents it.

The same goes for Jesus. We know from context and other Scriptures that when Thomas calls Jesus “God” he doesn’t mean “you are the Deity”. Other Scriptures tells us, for example, that there is one God, the Father. If there is one God, who is the Father, that means anyone else is precluded from being God. We also know from Scripture that Jesus, like the angels, represents God. Not in the same way as angels but instead we see in Jesus someone with the character of God, someone who spoke God’s words and someone who did God’s works. That doesn’t mean he is Deity. John Doe from Colorado Solar Design might install a new furnace in your home and tells you all about the company he represents. But that doesn’t mean he is Colorado Solar Design.

[scitsofreaky]

Very well argued. Man, I like that annalogy you used.
Another arguement is that just because Thomas calls Jesus God, it does not make Jesus God. Just because someone says something, doesn't make it so.

[Holysay]

Jesus is called God many times in the bible. I'll explain this when I have the time so you all will understand what I am trying to say. When I say I believe in the Trinity all of you think I believe exactly like all other Trinitarians. My belief in the Trinity is a little different then what most would say, but the Trinity is what I see that comes close to what I believe. I'm sure not all Christadelphians believe exactly the same too but what they teach seems close enough to what they believe, right?

Edited by Holysay, 31 January 2005 - 01:37 AM.

[Evangelion]

Holysay said:

Jesus is called God many times in the bible.

Many times?

How many is "many" in your opinion, Holysay?

[Anastasis]

Fortigurn, on Dec 4 2004, 02:39 PM, said:

Well the apostles teach us that Jesus - even after his resurrection and going to heaven - is still a man.

Sure, and the Creator as well (Col 1v16, 1 Cor 8v5-6). Thomas thought so too. If Son is the image of God and called Jesus, it follows that the name of the Father is _____? If there's no conflict between the baptism in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit in Matt 28v19 and the apostels' baptisms into Jesus, Christ or Jesus Christ, it follows that they are all the one and same being.

Your arguments only go some of the way Fortigurn.

[Adanac]

I think you’ll find the word is malak in the OT and aggelos in the NT, if I’m not mistaken.

[Adanac]

scooter, on Dec 8 2004, 12:57 PM, said:

Well, according to a Jewish teacher of the Hebrew scriptures I know, the correct word is what I stated. He teaches on the Bible, especially the Tanach, or what we know as the old testament.

BTW, he also disagrees with the view here about demons and the Hasatan. He says what you believe is some form of error made by someone. They dont actually have a word for 'demon', but use other words meaning the same thing. They have words for different types of 'demon', Just put that last remark in as an aside.

No, the word for angel in the OT is malak. It is used over 200 times for angel or messenger. You’ll have to ask him where he gets his word from.

[Roadstar]

Well according to my opinion the Trinity is Biblical, but the Trinity is GOD.
In genesis : In the Beggining was the WORD
When Jesus were Baptized the HOLY SPIRIT had Spoken.
And since Jesus Christ was the WORD in Flesh which the WORD was at the Beggining and Jesus was the Son of the Almighty then Yes. Trinity is biblical but the Trinity is GOD.

[Flappie]

He was the word made flesh, not the actual words in genesis.

[Roadstar]

"He was the word made flesh, not the actual words in genesis"

I know that Flappie i meant :
"In genesis : In the Beggining was the WORD"

"Then when Jesus were Baptized the HOLY SPIRIT had Spoken".NT

And since Jesus Christ was the WORD in Flesh which the WORD was at the Beggining and Jesus was the Son of the Almighty then Yes. Trinity is biblical but the Trinity is GOD.

[He-man]

One of the major complaints that Newton had was over the Trinity. The doctrine of the trinity, or concept of three beings in one, being everywhere yet nowhere, was something that he found utterly incongruent.

Newton was a man of much learning and had spent a considerable amount of time in theological study, as such he had formed his own opinions as to the nature of God and His Son. During his studies he found that this doctrine of the Triune God was a result of the Nicene Council, and was the deliberate twisting of scripture.

Newton is most often classed as Arian because of the common belief that Arius and Newton held - that the Father and Son are distinct beings. And therefore as a father and his son cannot be called one King upon account of their being consubstantial but may be called one King by unity of dominion if the Son be Viceroy under the father: so God and his son cannot be called one God upon account of their being consubstantial. (Manual, Historian 58)

Newton wrote extensively about this in connection to the great apostasy, as will be shown.

He said, "For there is but one God so there is but one Mediator between God and man; the man Christ Jesus" (Manuel, Historian 60).

This Revelation, or Apocalypse, clarifies Christ's role toward God. As a proof that Christ is divine, yet still subordinate to the Father, Newton recounts John's vision. In this vision, the Son is given a book, which he did not have before the completion of his earthly mission, and which was a new revelation to him.

If the revelation was new to the Christ, how could they be one person? And if the Son of God was not allowed to see the revelation before he had ascended to heaven, how can he be equal to God? He had to prove himself worthy to receive such a great book.

To further his point, Newton cites Mark 13:32 "Of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" (emphasis added).

‘The Testimony of Sir Isaac Newton by Isaac E. Wagner RELC 491, Fall 2000 Professor Steven Jones’

[Evangelion]

Nice work, He-man!

[Roadstar]

Interesting Reference He-man.

But check this: "http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread107586/pg1"

[scitsofreaky]

I Jesus was the word made flesh, then what about the phrase "In the begining was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God."

[Evangelion]

Click here.

See also here.

[He-man]

Roadstar: I checked that site and it isn't very helpful. Thanks anyway input of anykind is what we need.



Modedit: Please stay polite.

Edited by Flappie, 01 January 2005 - 11:24 PM.

[Holysay]

Hi,

I was just wondering since Trinitarian use these passage and many more to prove the Trinity, how much/many or what passage does Christadelphians use to prove what they say who Jesus is? Can anyone please post some passage so I can see and understand what they see? Thank You!

Genesis 1:1 Isaiah 7:14
Genesis 1:26 Isaiah 9:6
Genesis 11:7 Isaiah 43:11
Genesis 16:7-13 Isaiah 44:6
Genesis 18:1 and 2 Jeremiah 17:5
Deuteronomy 6:4 Jeremiah 23:6
Psalm 45:6 Micah 5:2
Psalm 110:1 Zechariah 12:10
Proverbs 8:23 Romans 10:9
Matthew 1:23 Romans 10:13
Matthew 4:10 1 Corinthians 8:6
Matthew 9:2 and 3 1 Corinthians 10:4b
Matthew 9:8b 1 Corinthians 10:9
Matthew 28:18 1 Corinthians 12:4-6
Matthew 28:19 2 Corinthians 5:19
Matthew 28:20b 2 Corinthians 12:19b
Mark 2:7 2 Corinthians 13:14
Luke 1:35 Ephesians 1:22 and 23
Luke 1:47 Ephesians 3:9
Luke 5:20 and 21 Ephesians 4:7 and 8
Luke 7:16 Ephesians 5:5
Luke 8:39 Philippians 2:6-8
John 1:1 Colossians 1:15-20
John 1:3 Colossians 2:2
John 1:10 Colossians 2:9
John 1:14a 2 Thessalonians 1:12
John 1:15 1 Timothy 3:16
John 1:18 1 Timothy 5:21
John 2:19 1 Timothy 6:14-16
John 2:24 2 Timothy 4:1
John 3:13 Titus 2:13
John 5:18b Hebrews 1:2
John 6:33 Hebrews 1:8
John 6:38 Hebrews 1:10
John 6:62 Hebrews 2:16
John 6:64 Hebrews 4:8
John 8:24b Hebrews 7:3
John 8:58b Hebrews 13:8
John 10:18 1 Peter 1:11
John 10:30 2 Peter 1:1b
John 10:33 1 John 3:16
John 14:11 1 John 5:7 and 8
John 14:16 and 17 1 John 5:20
John 17:5 Jude 4
John 20:17 Revelation 1:8
John 20:28 Revelation 1:11
Acts 5:3 and 4 Revelation 1:13-15
Acts 7:45 Revelation 1:17
Acts 7:59 Revelation 3:14
Acts 20:28b Revelation 21:6
Romans 9:5 Revelation 22:13