411 replies to this topic

[Nat]

Commenting on the Trinity in the Bible, I remember my dad telling me this:

If Jesus was to be God, it would be like my brother being my dad. My brother would be the same person and part of my dad, obviously this can't happen. What can though, is that they have the same characteristics and genes, so they are similar but not the same person, the God and Jesus have some of the same characteristics. In Genesis Chapter 1, He wants to create man in His (God's) own image. After Adam and Eve had sinned, none were like God, UNTIL Jesus was born and he went around preaching God's Word. Some people get stuck on this verse because they think that Adam and Eve are identical to God but in man form, but how could they if they were tempted by the serpent and followed and sinned? Therefore, Jesus was also tempted as he was man. He is known as the Son of Man in Luke, therefore he can be tempted just like us. However he had the will power and the strenght from God not to be tempted and to sin.

Sorry if that was a bit of a ramble!!

Love Nat xXx

[Billi]

Hi Nat, I'm not sure if xXx is really your last name..., but just for fun, let's say your dad's last name is "God", and your dad is the only person who has that last name.

Now, your dad has a son! He's not your dad, your bro's a totally different person. So now your have God the father and God the son. I'm not sure if you're the older sister of younger sister, but nonetheless, you are also God the lovely Nathalie...

So you see, you have three totally different persons..., but there's still only one God family. People can be adopted by your family, but they're not really 'God'.

Anyway, that's how I sorta see the Trinity. The only difference is that your family is mortal, our Father in Heaven's family is immortal, always was, is and forever will be.

Edited by Billi, 27 October 2004 - 04:35 PM.

[Nat]

Billi, on Oct 27 2004, 05:30 PM, said:

the lovely Natalie...

I like it!!

I see where you are coming from....BUT....(sorry I couldn't think of another word!)
I agree with that they are the same family but as Jesus says 'If you have seen me, you have seen my father....' You might have seen Jesus through his Father, and they might have the same characteristics BUT (sorry for being negative again) Jesus is his own person. He is still him and NOT God. A surname gives characteristics, they ARE part of the same family but it doesn't mean the mum is her daughter or the son is his father, they are like each other, that is why they have the same surname but they are NOT each other.

Love Nat xXx

PS My surname is not xXx, its just love to all you guys out there!!

[Sarah S]

Billi, on Oct 27 2004, 01:22 AM, said:

If Christ is not God, at least Christ acted like God. No matter what happens, he won't sin. He won't abuse his God given powers to serve himself. He does everything to bring honor and glory to his Father.

Spot on! He was not God, but imitated his Father's character.

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Is it really a sin to believe that my Lord and Savior is very very God-like?

I hope not! That's what I believe as a Christadelphian! Jesus told people they could see God by looking at him - that's how like His Father he really was. But you went on to say

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So much like God that I worship him equally as God the Father?

which isn't a logical step on. Why should "like" have to mean "equal in every way"?
You referred to a key point about this yourself earlier when you said

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He does everything to bring honor and glory to his Father.

As well as saying he was like his Father, Jesus acknowledged he was not equal to God and showed that very clearly in his actions: he gave all the glory to God.

[Billi]

I don't believe in three Gods, I only believe in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit! And they are indeed One holy and happy 'family'!

The only thing 'unequal' about God the Father and Jesus is that God the Father doesn't have a physical body like Jesus does. So yeah, in terms of physical mass, they are not equal or very much alike at all.

However, in terms of character, yes, I'd also agree that they are very much alike. The only difference is that I don't believe any mere man can possibly 'imitate' God's character. God's holy character is something you either have or you don't. According to the scriptures, no man on earth from the beginning of time til the end of time, except Jesus, has this totally Godly character.

I'm sure at the time, after witnessing Christ's miracles, people have mistaken Christ to be Deity, thinking that Christ is the One and Only God, but Christ quickly corrected them by saying that his Father is greater than him!!! Still, as unequal and lessor than God the Father, I don't think Christ has ever refused receiving 'worships', on behalf of his Father, from people. He also doesn't correct people when being called "My Lord, my God!" (John 20:28)

Finally, why is it that we are to be baptized in the name of God, name of Christ the man, and name of God's power? Why couldn't we just be baptized in the name of our One and only God so that there won't be any confusions as to who God really is? Are we really children of God or are we just brothers of Christ?

Edited by Billi, 27 October 2004 - 07:55 PM.

[Adanac]

Billi, on Oct 27 2004, 12:51 PM, said:

I don't believe in three Gods, I only believe in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit! And they are indeed One holy and happy 'family'!

That still equals 3 gods whichever way you look at it.

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The only difference is that I don't believe any mere man can possibly 'imitate' God's character.

So why is this exactly what he wants us to do?

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God's holy character is something you either have or you don't.

What about something you can develop? Luke 2:52.

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According to the scriptures, no man on earth from the beginning of time til the end of time, except Jesus, has this totally Godly character.

That's true. So why does that make Jesus = God?

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I'm sure at the time, after witnessing Christ's miracles, people have mistaken Christ to be Deity, thinking that Christ is the One and Only God, but Christ quickly corrected them by saying that his Father is greater than him!!!

Now you're contradicting yourself. I thought you said Christ was Deity?

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Still, as unequal and lessor than God the Father, I don't think Christ has ever refused receiving 'worships', on behalf of his Father, from people. He also doesn't correct people when being called "My Lord, my God!" (John 20:28)

Yes, and you are proving that he is not God with all this.

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Finally, why is it that we are to be baptized in the name of God, name of Christ the man, and name of God's power? Why couldn't we just be baptized in the name of our One and only God so that there won't be any confusions as to who God really is? Are we really children of God or are we just brothers of Christ?

There is no confusion is you just use common sense.

[Billi]

You guys keep on forcing yourselves to add 1+1+1=3, but I just don't think it's addition, it's more like multiplication! 1*1*1=1. 1width*1length*1height=1cube. 1Father*1Son*1HolySpirit=1God.

As for 'imitating' God, yes, that's what we are commanded to do, but I'm willing to bet you my life savings that no matter how much you pray for God to give you strength, you'll never be able to 'imitate' God as good as Christ! I know full well that I will NEVER reach that perfect goal, but of course that doesn't mean I should stop trying. I want to better myself and be right with God. I can 'imitate' with all of my heart, mind, and strength for the rest of my life, hopefully I'll improve myself, but the truth is that I'm never gonna be there. Jesus, on the other hand, is 'there'. He has never once failed to be outta 'there'. He was 'there', he is 'there', and he will always be 'there', exactly like his Dad! Jesus is just a man like us, but fundamentally, there is something about Jesus that's very different from us...

Now, I certainly didn't mean to contradict myself. Jesus being a Deity like his Dad is one thing, but it's also important for earlier Christians to know the Jesus is also a man like us! That he can indeed suffer the same way we suffer.

If a person were to worship Jesus as Deity alone, that's bad! Jesus doesn't want that. Jesus doesn't want people for forget about his Abba!!! As great as Christ is, he wants people to know there exists his Dad who's even greater than him!!! Jesus doesn't want people to forget about his Dad that's all. No respecting son will ever boast about being greater than his dad. Further, no loving father would think that his son will always remain inferior to him.

[Adanac]

Billi, on Oct 27 2004, 01:51 PM, said:

You guys keep on forcing yourselves to add 1+1+1=3, but I just don't think it's addition, it's more like multiplication! 1*1*1=1. 1width*1length*1height=1cube. 1Father*1Son*1HolySpirit=1God.

As has been pointed out countless times here and elsewhere that analogy is completely meaningless.

If I knocked on God's door and God the Father answered it and I said I wanted to speak to God the Son, would God the Father have to go into the kitchen to get God the Son to come to the door? Or by speaking to God the Father would I indeed be also speaking to God the Son?

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As for 'imitating' God, yes, that's what we are commanded to do, but I'm willing to bet you my life savings that no matter how much you pray for God to give you strength, you'll never be able to 'imitate' God as good as Christ!

That’s quite true but it doesn’t prove Christ is God at all.

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He was 'there', he is 'there', and he will always be 'there', exactly like his Dad! Jesus is just a man like us, but fundamentally, there is something about Jesus that's very different from us...

That’s right, but none of it proves Jesus is God.

[orthotomeo]

Billi, on Oct 27 2004, 01:51 PM, said:

You guys keep on forcing yourselves to add 1+1+1=3, but I just don't think it's addition, it's more like multiplication! 1*1*1=1. 1width*1length*1height=1cube. 1Father*1Son*1HolySpirit=1God.

Well I think our math would have to be expanded Billi.
John 17 says the following

John 17:20, on 21, said:

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

So apparently everyone who is considered a believer is one in Christ which makes the math more like: 1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1**1*1*1*1*1..
...=1
After all at the end of the kingdom we know this will happen:

1 corinthians 15 said:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he[christ] must reign, till he[God] hath put all enemies under his[Christ's] feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted [excluded], which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So apparently we're all going to be a part of God.

[Billi]

I'm really sorry, I know I should always just stick to the scripture, but sometimes we can think outside the box a little, right? If my analogies are unbiblical, then fine, reject them. If you don't support the Trinitarian interpretation of the Bible, no matter what I quote out of the Bible, it'll never be sufficient... because we will always see differently even while reading the same passages! Similarly, Christadelphians can quote scriptures to prove that the Trinitarians are wrong, but to be honest, I'm still not completely convinced. Yes, I can see the possibility that you might be right and I might be wrong, but so far I just haven't heard anything that's absolutely convincing. Believe me, I'm not here just to mess with the Christadelphians and to waste everybody's time and forum resources, I want to learn the truth too!

Now, back to topic, Bible is clear that we are to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, right? But why? Why three names if we all only believe in One God? Can anyone explain that to me without using the Trinity Doctrine?

Yeah, God has used many many names prior. Why not baptize ourselves with all those names too? What's so significant about those three? And if Jesus isn't even Deity, why should we be baptized in his name? Sure, he's our bro a great role model, but he's not really God, why should we be baptized in the name of another man? I want to be adopted by God, not just to be a brother of some guy! Further, God's power is just God's power, why be redundant about it and be baptized in the name of God's power(Holy Spirit)? Shouldn't a baptism in God's name alone be sufficient?

Anyway, after our baptism, we ARE indeed part of God. Key word here is just 'part' of God. We'll never fully be like Christ or God the Father. We can only be part of God. Together, we represent the body of Christ on earth.

Romans 12:5
so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.


1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

If Christ is indeed Deity, then yes, we not only will be, but we already are part of God.

If Christ isn't Deity, then no, not only will we not be able to be like God, but even when many of us are to form one body in the name of Christ, we'll still not be part of God, we'll only be belonging to each other and be part of a great man named Christ.

If we are God's children, shouldn't we be part of God? If part of God and part of Christ is one of the same, then why isn't Christ God?

Edited by Billi, 27 October 2004 - 11:32 PM.

[Adanac]

Billi, on Oct 27 2004, 04:06 PM, said:

Now, back to topic, Bible is clear that we are to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, right? But why? Why three names if we all only believe in One God? Can anyone explain that to me without using the Trinity Doctrine?

Yes, it is extremely simple. We do not have three names here, we have one. It says "in the name" not "in the names". Therefore the Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same name. We are baptized into that one name. We then become bearers of that one name. It is like adopting a child. That child now has a new name. Whereas they were "Ed Smith" now they are "Ed Jones". Jones is their new name, the name that belongs to the adopter, the adopter's wife and the adopter's natural children. The adopter, the adopter's wife and the adopter's natural children are all distinct people but they share the same name. Likewise with God and His family, which includes everyone in heaven and earth (see Ephesians 3) that belongs to him. So God, Christ, the angels, and saints of all ages share the same name. That does not make them all the same being, they are all distinct. But they all share the same name and thus are one. This is the oneness the Bible talks about.

[Billi]

Adanac, on Oct 27 2004, 11:20 PM, said:

We do not have three names here, we have one. It says "in the name" not "in the names". Therefore the Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same name. We are baptized into that one name.

Excuse me?

So you're saying Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are all just One name?

If Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are all just One name, then why can't you take out the word 'name' and then replace it with the word 'God'?

The 'name' of God is 'Father, Son and the Holy Spirit'.

[Adanac]

Billi, on Oct 27 2004, 04:28 PM, said:

Adanac, on Oct 27 2004, 11:20 PM, said:

We do not have three names here, we have one. It says "in the name" not "in the names". Therefore the Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same name. We are baptized into that one name.

Excuse me?

So you're saying Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are all just One name?

If Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are all just One name, then why can't you take out the word 'name' and then replace it with the word 'God'?

The 'name' of God is 'Father, Son and the Holy Spirit'.

You misunderstand. The name is not "Father, Son and Holy Spirit". The name is something not mentioned in the verse. "Father" is a title, not a name. Let's same the name is Yahweh. That means the name of the Father is Yahweh, the name of the Son is Yahweh and the name of the Holy Spirit is Yahweh. That way when someone is baptized into the name their name is now Yahweh too.

[Billi]

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding...

Still, exactly what is God's name?

Exactly what is the name of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Also, I can understand that we all need names... for people, angels or whatever, but why does God's power(the Holy Spirit) need a name?

Do you have any scriptural references to tell me what is this One name?

[Adanac]

It is more important to understand God's name as His attributes - see Exodus 34:5-7. In other words to be baptized into that name is to governed by these attributes. Everything that God stands for, everything that Jesus stands for and everything that the Holy Spirit stands for is described in that passages in Exodus.

Edited by Adanac, 28 October 2004 - 12:03 AM.

[Billi]

God the Father stands for God. Jesus Christ stands for God. Holy Spirit stands for God. That is my understanding of why we need to be baptized in that name.

BTW, can the Holy Spirit really 'stand' if it's only God's power and not really a "person"?

[RiceRocket]

Billi, on Oct 28 2004, 04:39 PM, said:

God the Father stands for God. Jesus Christ stands for God. Holy Spirit stands for God. That is my understanding of why we need to be baptized in that name.

BTW, can the Holy Spirit really 'stand' if it's only God's power and not really a "person"?

Agreed

[twoofseven]

The "standing" is not standing in a physical sense, it's a metaphorical wording, and not from the bible in the first place. It was Adanac's way of saying that God is described in Ex 34. You can't take someone's idiomatic expression and use it to try to defend the trinity!

[Adanac]

Thanks twoofseven.

[Billi]

2of7, why does God's power need to be assigned a name? The only person 'physical' enough to actually 'stand' or 'sit' would be Jesus. Neither the Heavenly Father nor the Holy Spirit are physical beings... if they are 'beings' at all.

Further, according to 1 Corinthians 12:27, you know you are part of Christ.

Tell me, after your baptism, are you just part of Christ or are you part of God? You are now a child of God, aren't you? Or are you just limited to be a sister of Christ?

[Nat]

Billi, on Oct 29 2004, 09:27 PM, said:

Why does God's power need to be assigned a name? The only person 'physical' enough to actually 'stand' or 'sit' would be Jesus. Neither the Heavenly Father nor the Holy Spirit are physical beings... if they are 'beings' at all.

Ok, let's take an example (these help me a lot so I hope they help you too!!)
I find it hard to say the Holy Spirit has a name but this always helps me. Usually the thought of you not being able to see it and touch it and smell it etc, is always the reason why we can't believe that they are physical beings so why have a name. Example. We know that air, oxygen, nitrogen, whatever you call it, is around us, but we can't see. We might be able to feel it sometimes but we can see the affects of what it does. It is exactly like the Holy Spirit. We might not be able to see it but we see what it does around us. Not all the time but when we might need it.

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Further, according to 1 Corinthians 12:27, you know you are part of Christ.

Tell me, after your baptism, are you just part of Christ or are you part of God? You are now a child of God, aren't you? Or are you just limited to be a sister of Christ?

You are part of the body of Christ. Christ is the head and when we are baptised we join the body of Christ and we all become individual and equal. We all care for each other and when we suffer, we all suffer, and when we rejoyce, we all rejoyce.
Yes, we are children of God and we will be looked after and we are also a brethren and sister in Christ (PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE Someone correct me if I'm wrong because I don't want to be preaching the wrong thing!!)

Love Nat xXx

[Billi]

Isn't it weird for us to be have to be baptized with water in the name of Father, Son and Air... or Holy Air or Holy God's Power? Isn't that weird?

Wouldn't it be simpler for us to simply be baptized in the name of God? That alone could've easily crush the Trinitarians in pieces. Why include Holy Air and that Man name Christ, you know? Holy Air is not even a being... and Christ is lessor than God the Father too. A lot of other beings stand for God too. The angels for example. Why don't we have to be baptized in the name of those angels?

Do you sorta see why it's hard for me to let go completely of the Trinity Doctrine? Trinity Doctrine is not as baseless as the Christadelphians claimed! There are special significances with the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Unless it's another bible translation error. Some Trinitarian translators could've added the Son and the Holy Spirit in the Gospels?

Edited by Billi, 29 October 2004 - 10:31 PM.

[Adanac]

You’re forgetting that there was no Trinity doctrine until the 4th century. So when those words were penned in Matthew there was no baggage attached to “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” and people understood it in its simplicity.

[Billi]

If people truly understood its simplicity, then the baggage wouldn't have gotten so heavy later on!

Obviously there are confusions, hence the birth of this confusing doctrine.

[Adanac]

It only got confusing when people stopped reading the Bible and started bringing in pagan mythology.

[Fortigurn]

Well the apostles teach us that Jesus - even after his resurrection and going to heaven - is still a man.

In his speech to the Jews on the day of Pentecost, the apostle Peter tells them that Jesus is a man approved by God:

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Acts 2:
22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

The apostle Peter taught that Jesus is a man, not God, or even a God, or even on the same level as God.

In his speech to the people after he had healed the lame mand, the apostle Peter tells them that Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecy given by Moses, that God would send them a Messiah who was a man like them:

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Acts 3:
22  For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Here Moses says that the prophet God would send (the Messiah), would be 'of your brethren, like unto me' - in other words, a man, a human being.

In his speech to a law court, the apostle Stephen tells them that Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecy given by Moses, that God would send them a Messiah who was a man like them:

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Acts 7:
37This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

He uses the same quote as the apostle Peter had used, telling them that the prophet God would send (the Messiah), would be 'of your brethren, like unto me' - in other words, a man, a human being.

When he was in Athens, the apostle Paul was speaking to some people about who Jesus was. In his speech, he told them clearly that Jesus was a man who received authority from God:

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Acts 17:
30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31  Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Here Paul says that Jesus is a man appointed by God to judge the world.

In his first letter to Timothy, the apostle Paul says that there is one God, and that there is one mediator between God and men, and that is Jesus Christ, who he says is a man:

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1 Timothy 2:
5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

It couldn't be any clearer. The apostles all taught time and time and time again that Jesus was a man at his birth, and was still a man after his resurrection and going to the Father.

So we can see that Jesus both was and still is a man.

[Holysay]

I was just thinking, at the end of the world what would be more of a sin, finding out that Jesus is just a man or not believing that Jesus was God?
I think it's more safe to me finding out that Jesus is not a God rather then denying him as God.

[Fortigurn]

Holysay, on Dec 5 2004, 02:00 AM, said:

I was just thinking, at the end of the world what would be more of a sin, finding out that Jesus is just a man or not believing that Jesus was God?
I think it's more safe to me finding out that Jesus is not a God rather then denying him as God.

Given what the apostles say above, what do you think is more dangerous?

And given that it is the spirit of antiChrist to deny that Jesus came in the flesh, rather than to deny that he is God, which do you think is more dangerous?

[Holysay]

In the bible it has mention many times that he was God. Many called him God and he never said I am not God. He said I and my father are one. God is not with him but in him. So I believe it is ok to say he is God and not just a man.