[Skeptic]

Hi Leah

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You have just read the prophecy of the crucifixion of Christ which was written by King David 1000 years before being fulfilled!!

and:

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It would be *impossible* for a man to predict in such detail these events.

I see that you aim to use the Argument from the Bible, which is intended as an argument both for God's existence and for the truth of the Bible from the alleged special features of that collection of books.

Before we go any further, I just want you to clarify a thing or two. The argument from the Bible is usually based on a number of claims regarding the Bible, which added together, constitutes the whole argument.

You have started off by focusing only on the first of these claims, namely that the Bible contains a large number of prophecies of future events which have been remarkably fulfilled. This claim is often presented in conjunction with other claims, which cumulatively builds the case to believe in the Bible and therefore in God.

In order for me to formulate a proper response, could you indicate if you aim to use only this claim as a stand-alone argument, or do you aim to use it in conjunction with the other? Under other claims I mean, for instance claimimg simultaneously the Bible does not contain any unfulfilled prophecies, etc.

Could you also indicate whether you are familiar with statistics/quantitive analysis at all? (I want to avoid being pedantic if you are.)

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It is also irrational to believe that Jesus himself, the Jewish rulers who denied his claim to be the Messiah, and the pagan Roman soldiers would collaborate to perform the crucifixion of Jesus so that they might fulfill an Old Testament prophecy, and so deceive people into believing that the Bible was the Word of God!

It is a bit early to set up a straw man already, isn’t it? :cool:

[Fortigurn]

This will be an education for you Leah. And a good one. ^_^

[Skeptic]

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The Theory of Evolution the Cause

No teaching has contributed more to destroying man’s confidence in the existence of God than the theory of evolution.  

That is an interesting claim. I assume you have a link for us to empirical studies regarding the impact of different theories on people's beliefs regarding the existence of God?

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Yet, that theory is completely false, and there is no scientist of any standing, who would dare claim that it has been proved indisputably true.

Of course, the hallmark of any good scientific theory is that it can be expressed in such terms that it may be falsifiable. A scientific theory is just a way of explaining things, which has to compete with other alternative ways of explaining the same thing. That is why it is to be expected and hoped that "there is no scientist of any standing, who would dare claim that it has been proved indisputably true."...

That does not make the theory false, however. You need to show good cause for why you claim it is false. Mere assertion doesn't cut it. If you can demonstrate that this policy is false, you may consider submitting this proof to a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal. Surely proof that is that revolutionary is worthy of the Nobel prize...

If such research/dissertation has already been submitted, you may wish to post us a link.

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The theory is propounded on the basis of implication and circumstantial evidence, that fails to satisfy the truly enquiring mind.

As a skeptic, I won't be surprised if that is the case. Theories should always be approached with skepticism. I therefore applaud your skepticism regarding the theory of evolution. I also assume you are willing to apply skepticism in equal measure to alternative explanations?

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This theory cannot provide any answer to the insurmountable problems that face society...

Nor does it aim to. It is simply a theory of how we are here, not why we are or what to do about it.

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...but is itself responsible for the decline of morals, the break-up of family life, and the political antagonism that disgraces today’s world.

This is a sweeping claim that requires very careful proof, as well as specific elaboration.

On what basis are you drawing a causal link between the theory of evolution and the decline of morals, family life and politics?

At what point in history was a "higher" morality evident, compared to the morality of today?

What criteria are you using to judge that morals today are worse that at any other point in history?

Are you referring to morals the world over, or just in your country?

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Yet the Bible, with its remarkable confirmation of prophecy vindicated beyond all shadow of doubt by the amazing fulfilment of that which it has predicted...

Hmmm, refer to the debate around the Argument from the Bible which we shall be engaging in soon...

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(the Bible) can direct to a satisfying way of life that provides for the good of humanity and also presents a hope for the future .

This is 100% true. The Bible offers hope to countless Christians the world over. Offering hope does not necessarily point to truth, however. Many people are offered hope by touching statues of Christ that "bleed". Unproven psychological theories offer many people hope. Unscientific "alternative" therapies offer people hope.

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The most seriously perturbing aspect of all this conflict, is that evolution has been gullibly accepted by people who do not understand how fallacious is its teaching, nor how dangerous its influence.

As a matter of interest, can you name at least three different types of fallacies and give an example of each (it doesn't have to be from the evolution theory, although that would be a bonus).

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It has now become incorporated into the educational systems of the schools, and though it remains an unproven theory, it is often taught as fact, as true beyond all doubt, and in such a way as to completely discredit the Bible.

You have to realise that everything in every subject at school level is taught as fact (which of course doesn't make it right that a scientific theory is taught as fact). That is not something which is peculiar to the theory of evolution. We were taught some stuff in physics as fact, which you only realise is nonsense, when you reach varsity. The key to addressing this lack of questioning skills at primary and seconday education level is to teach children skepticism from a young age, not to exchange blind faith in one unproven theory for another.

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Thus, from early childhood, people are taught to question the standards of previous times, and to scoff at the Bible with its message of hope and its offer of personal salvation. People reject the idea that Jesus Christ is to return to this earth.

How many people do you think do this, statistically speaking?

[Skeptic]

Leah, on Mar 3 2003, 03:03 PM, said:

Enough of this mumbo jumbo. Please comment on the prophecy of Psalm 22.

There is a number of psychological mechanisms which have been identified through empirical research and could apply to belief in prophesies.

Selective thinking is the process whereby one selects out favorable evidence for remembrance and focus, while ignoring unfavorable evidence for a belief. A specific type of selective thinking is called confirmation bias, in which the believer tends to notice and to look for things that confirm her belief in prophesy, and to ignore, not look for, or undervalue the relevance of what contradicts the belief in prophesy.

People also tend to interpret whatever they experience according to what they would like to be the case rather than according to the actual evidence. Regardless of whether a claim is true or not, it can become a strong belief through repeated assertion by members of a community, which is known as communal reinforcement.

In the Bible, instances can be found of prophesies that were accurate simply because they were written after the events they purport to have foreseen. Other prophecies have readings forced into them by believers, but were in actual fact not prophecies at all. Yet other prophecies fulfilled events that actually never occurred, but were constructed purely from the Old Testament through a method known as midrash.

According to the law of probabilities, some prophecies made in the Bible would come true as a matter of coincidence, provided that many of them do not come true. For you to avoid my claim that a particular instance where a prophesy seemed to be fulfilled, is due to pure coincidence, you need to claim simultaneously the Bible does not contain any unfulfilled prophecies. Do you claim that?

[Skeptic]

Leah

(I had to delete all smilies and split my post up in order to avoid an error message! So much for a *short* debate....)

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That is an interesting claim. I assume you have a link for us to empirical studies regarding the impact of different theories on people's beliefs regarding the existence of God?

Oh pah-leeze! I don't need to link you to empirical studies!!! Use your common-sense! If you push the theory that we evolved opposed to being created by a Divine Being then of course people's confidence in God will be destroyed!! Does 2 + 2 = 4?

1) You are commiting the fallacy of bifurcation (false dichotomy) by implying that believing in evolution precludes believing in God and vice versa. There are at least two other possibilities: to believe in both creation and evolution, (as many of my Chrisitan friends do) or to believe neither in creation nor in evolution (which is my position). You are also commiting the fallacy of converting a conditional, which is not acceptable.

2) You cannot just assert to me that evolution theory is being “pushed”, because when I was at school, South Africa still adhered to what was known as "Christian National Education" – so my experience contradicts your assertion. Not a single shred of the evolution theory was ever taught in the school I attended, nor any others I know of.

Unfortunately growing up in apartheid South Africa where my pastor, my parents, most of my teachers and peers subscribed to a racist ideology, as well as Protestant Christianity, taught me that even authority figures and adults can be deluded. The curriculum was replaced in 1994, but since I don’t know anything about that, I need documentary proof of exactly how much the theory is “pushed”.

Had the theory been taught to me as though it was fact, I would have probably questioned it on the grounds that theories aren’t facts.

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Nor does it aim to. It is simply a theory of how we are here, not why we are or what to do about it

That's what is so meaningless about it. If you choose to believe in the Big Bang theory (do you?) opposed to using your common-sense and seeing that there is design behind our existence, you have absolutely no meaning in your life whatsoever! No purpose at all. We are here to manifest God's character ..

(etc.)

Many Buddhists find meaning and peace in their lives – do they posses truth? A woman whose husband has cheated on her will tell you that knowing the truth is not always comforting. Giving purpose or meaning to life does not equate to truth. Getting to know the truth about our existence one day, may turn out to be the least comforting thing we ever find out.

I am currently reading Steven Hawking’s “A brief history of time”. He believes in the possibility of the big bang theory being true (in addition to some other very provocative alternative theories). Have you seen Steven Hawking? He has motor neuron disease, yet that doesn’t stop him from searching for a unifying theory of physics. Arguably one needs to have some sense of meaning in one’s life, to keep persisting with that in the face of a disease that is that debilitating. Does Hawking’s opinion on the Big Bang make him an atheist? Are all people who don’t believe in Big Bang theory, Christians?

On the other hand, Christians who don’t happen to believe in the Big Bang can still stand the chance of developing the perception of little meaning in their lives due to other factors, such as biologically based depression, extreme torture during war-time, 40 years of racial discrimination, etc.

If I believed there were no God, that would make me draw the following conclusions:
Since I would have only about 70 or so years to live my life, I would need to live it to the fullest and try and make as much positive difference to the lives of others, as possible, since I won’t get a second chance. Furthermore, if there is no deity that can intervene on humanity’s all of humanity should all put nose to the grindstone and start solving our own problems, as no-one else will do it for us. How you handle the metaphysical implications of your faith, depends largely on your personality and unique circumstances. I happen to be an optimist, so I would tend to find meaning nevertherless.

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I also assume you are willing to apply skepticism in equal measure to alternative explanations?

Yep. I've got an open mind.

Does that mean you are willing to contemplate the possibility that maybe what we think we know about God may be wrong?

[Skeptic]

Continued....

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Leah: ...but is itself responsible for the decline of morals, the break-up of family life, and the political antagonism that disgraces today’s world.

Skeptic: This is a sweeping claim that requires very careful proof, as well as specific elaboration

Oh pah-leeze, no it doesn't! If you leave God out of the picture and choose to disregard His Laws, simply because you do not believe he exists, you are bound to have trouble! It's like with the laws of the land! If we didn't have speeding restrictions on the roads *everyone* who drove a vehicle would be dead!!!!! It's human nature.

That is mere assertion. Can you name me a more law-abiding country than Thailand? Do they believe in the same God as you? I don’t believe religion (or a specific religion) guarantees morality. I also don’t believe not being religious guarantees you will act immorally or criminally.

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At what point in history was a "higher" morality evident, compared to the morality of today?

Just speak to people who lived say 50 years ago. Yes, human nature has always been vile even from the beginning but just take homosexuality. Sure it's always been around but now it is permissible and almost commendable to flaunt it. Gay couples are even allowed to marry in most churches and adopt children! If you are wondering, God considers homosexuality an abomination (Deuteronomy 22:5; Leviticus 20:13)

The fallacy of Argumentum ad antiquitatum is the fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply because it's old. Not surprisingly older people often commit this fallacy due to selective thinking (remembering the good and forgetting the bad). So will we when we are old one day. Anecdotes don't count as proof - they can at best serve as a dramatic reinforcement to real proof.

[Skeptic]

(I had to replace the real smilies with written ones...)

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Yes, human nature has always been vile even from the beginning but just take homosexuality. Sure it's always been around but now it is permissible and almost commendable to flaunt it. Gay couples are even allowed to marry in most churches and adopt children! If you are wondering, God considers homosexuality an abomination (Deuteronomy 22:5; Leviticus 20:13)

Are there perhaps any parts of Leviticus that you believe we should not be applying today, or can we safely assume the whole of Leviticus as still applicable?

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Many people are offered hope by touching statues of Christ that "bleed".

Let me assure you that Christadelphians don't believe in that nonsense!

Why not? What if it is the truth and you have deliberately closed yourself off from it?

[Skeptic]

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Bible numerology in itself proves that God is the Author of the Bible. Please consider then please comment .

Leah, Leah, Leah...

What am I to do with your posts?

There are many very sound arguments pro believing in the Bible.
Numerology isn't one of them. Would a Christian or Christadelphian please do me the courtesy of explaining to Leah here why numerology is the shakiest proof one can offer of Biblical veracity?

From time to time, even I get tired of being the "bad guy"...

[Fortigurn]

Skeptic, on Mar 4 2003, 10:50 AM, said:

There are many very sound arguments pro believing in the Bible. Numerology isn't one of them.

Would a Christian or Christadelphian please do me the courtesy of explaining to Leah here why numerology is the shakiest proof one can offer as proof of Biblical veracity?

Leah, the arguments from 'Bible numerology' are fraught with speculation, subjectivity, and a complete lack of verification.

Of the interpretations of the number 666 in Revelation 13, only the interpretation 'Lateinos' is valid (and this is verfiable). And that isn't 'Bible numerology', that's just gematria. ^_^

[Skeptic]

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Rubbish! I'd be interested to know the 'instances' you are referring to (care to jot them down for me) but make no mistake that the crucifixion of Christ was predicted and recorded 1000 years *before* it happened. The datings on the Dead Sea scrolls can prove that for you!

and

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No. I do not claim that. A lot of prophecies won't be fulfilled until the Lord Jesus Christ returns to the earth. What's your point?

That is a good explanation for prophesies that are yet to be fulfilled and since they are supposedly still in the future they cannot be verified in the here and now. I will not comment on that, except to say that it is somewhat convenient...

However, some prophesies that were supposed to have been fulfilled during the time covered by the Bible, were clearly not. We cannot be guilty of counting the "hits" and ignoring the "misses" (which is illustrated for example in the tendency of people to say "look at all the great presidents our country has produced', whilst ignoring all the serial murderers or other dubious characters that same country produced...)

From an article entiltled
Some Reasons that Humanists Reject The Bible
by Joseph C. Sommer, wherein he points out that The Bible itself contains a test for determining whether a prophecy was inspired by God.

He quotes Deuteronomy 18:22 which states: "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

According to Sommer, applying this test to the Bible leads to the conclusion that the book contains many statements that were not inspired by God.

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Old Testament Prophecies

Genesis 2:17 relates that the Lord warned Adam and Eve about the fruit contained on the tree of knowledge: "(i)n the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."  In Genesis chapter 3, however, we see that Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and did not die on that day.

Genesis 35:10 states that God told Jacob: "(T)hy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name. . . ."  But eleven chapters later, the Lord’s own action proved that prediction to be wrong.  Genesis 46:2 says: "God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob.  And he said, Here am I."

At II Chronicles 1:12, God promised Solomon: "Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like."  This prognostication was false because, as Robert Ingersoll pointed out in the nineteenth century, there were several kings in Solomon’s day who could have thrown away the value of Palestine without missing the amount.[48]  And the wealth of Solomon has been exceeded by many subsequent kings and is small by today’s standards.[49]

Isaiah 17:1-2 prophesies that Damascus would cease to be a city, will be reduced to a heap of ruins, and shall be forever desolate.  Yet some 27 centuries after the prophecy was made, Damascus is one of the oldest cities in the world and is still going strong.

Jeremiah 25:11 predicts that the Jews would be captives in Babylon for 70 years, and II Chronicles 36:20-21 claims that this prophecy was fulfilled.   But the Jews were taken into captivity by the Chaldeans when Jerusalem fell in 586 B.C.E.  And they were permitted to return from Babylon to Judah when Cyrus of Persia issued an order in 538 B.C.E. allowing them to do so.  Thus, the Babylonian captivity lasted about 48 years.

Examples of other unfulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament include the following: the Jews will occupy the land from the Nile to the Euphrates (Genesis 15:18); they shall never lose their land and shall be disturbed no more (II Samuel 7:10); King David’s throne and kingdom shall be established forever (II Samuel 7:16); no uncircumcised person will ever enter Jerusalem (Isaiah 52:1); and the waters of Egypt will dry up (Isaiah 19:5-7).

New Testament Prophecies

In applying the Bible’s test for identifying false prophets, the conclusion is inescapable that Jesus was one of them.  He clearly was wrong in predicting that the world would end within the lifetime of his followers.  At Matthew 16:28, he tells his disciples: "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."  The persons who were standing there all died eventually, and they never saw Jesus return to establish a kingdom.

Similarly, Jesus is depicted at Mark 13:24-30 as listing signs that shall accompany the end of the world.  These include the sun becoming darkened, the moon not giving any light, the stars of heaven falling, the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory, and angels gathering the elect.  Then Jesus announces: "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."  That generation passed away long ago without the predicted events occurring.

Jesus was also incorrect in his prediction about the amount of time he would be in the tomb.  At Matthew 12:40, he states: "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."  But Mark 15:42-45 shows that Jesus died on a Friday afternoon, and Mark 16:9 and Matthew 28:1 tell us that he left the tomb sometime on Saturday night or Sunday morning.  These accounts reveal that Jesus erred in saying he would be in the tomb three nights.

Another significant false prophecy in the New Testament is at John 14:13-14.  There Jesus promises: "[W]hatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.  If ye ask any thing in my name, I will do it."  Everyone knows that there have been millions of instances where Jesus failed to respond to Christians who asked for things in his name.  As someone once noted, the graveyards are full of people who prayed for health.

The same as other incorrect statements in the Bible, false prophecies cast doubt on all biblical claims.  If one verse in the Bible is wrong, it is possible for many verses to be wrong.  

As I have stated before, according to the law of probabilities, some prophecies made in the Bible would come true as a matter of coincidence, provided that many of them do not come true.

Since it can be demonstrated that there are many instances where prophesies were verifiably not fulfilled (and I am here not even talking abou those that could possibly be fulfilled in future), it is statistically possible that a particular instance where a prophesy seemed to be fulfilled, could be due to pure coincidence. To appreciate that statement, it is necessary to have a basic understanding of quantitative analysis a.k.a statistics. Which is why I asked you about that right in the beginning...

[Skeptic]

But let us suppose the fulfilment of prophesies really were an indication of the truth of a religion, what do we make of the fact that so-called fulfilled prophesies occur in the Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Mormon, Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian and Native American Indian religions?

If you allow it as proof of one faith, can you disallow it as proof for another faith?

[Skeptic]

Fortigurn, on Mar 4 2003, 01:35 PM, said:

Skeptic, on Mar 4 2003, 10:50 AM, said:

There are many very sound arguments pro believing in the Bible. Numerology isn't one of them.

Would a Christian or Christadelphian please do me the courtesy of explaining to Leah here why numerology is the shakiest proof one can offer as proof of Biblical veracity?

Leah, the arguments from 'Bible numerology' are fraught with speculation, subjectivity, and a complete lack of verification.

Of the interpretations of the number 666 in Revelation 13, only the interpretation 'Lateinos' is valid (and this is verfiable). And that isn't 'Bible numerology', that's just gematria. ^_^

According to Islamic apologetics the mathematical structure of the Quran was "discovered" by Dr. Rashad Khalifa, an Egyptian born American biochemist, in the 1970's.

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Dr. Khalifa, started translating the Quran into English with the determination to find an explanation for the mysterious initials prefixing 29 Suras.

He initiated an extensive research on these initials (for example: the Arabic letter "Qaaf" in Suras 42 and 50), after placing the Quranic text of the initialed Suras into a computer.

His objective was to find a mathematical pattern which would explain the significance of the initials, although he had no idea where and what to look for.

After several years of research, Dr. Khalifa published his first results in a book entitled MIRACLE OF THE QURAN, Significance of the Mysterious Alphabets (Islamic Productions), in 1973.

It was in 1974 that Dr. Khalifa discovered that there was a common denominator in the initials and throughout the Quran - the number 19.

Subsequently Dr. Khalifa published, THE COMPUTER SPEAKS: GOD'S MESSAGE TO THE WORLD (Renaissance Productions, 1981), QURAN: Visual Presentation of the Miracle (Islamic Productions, 1982); and the translation of the Quran in English (Islamic Productions, 1989).

All these publications are good tools to verify the mathematical structure.

Why would Allah build in this code?

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Verse 74:31 gives five reasons for the miracle of the Quran with number 19 as the common denominator.

1. To disturb the disbelievers.

2. To convince the Christians and the Jews (that this is divine scripture).

3. To strengthen the faith of the faithful.

4. To remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers; and

5. To expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; who will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" (or "So What?").

All this goes by way of showing how numerology can be used to "prove" Islam...

[Fortigurn]

Hi Skeptic,

It might be fair to provide Leah with a process of both falsifying and verifying Bible prophecy. Thus far, your argumentation predicates falsification, but leaves no possibility for verification. It is therefore self-invalidated. You need to correct this.

[Fortigurn]

Leah, on Mar 5 2003, 12:23 AM, said:

Fortigurn! I can't believe you are down on Bible Numerology! A guy as intelligent as you?

That certain numbers in Scripture are used consistently to represent certain concepts is not under dispute. What is under dispute is the tortuous 'Bible codes' to which the Word of God is subjected. These are subjective, and demonstrably falsifiable.

If you want to know what was wrong with your '666' interpretations, I'll go through it on the Eschatology board.

[Fortigurn]

Leah, on Mar 5 2003, 09:58 AM, said:

Evolution claims that “life” came into existence by mere chance; that its complex, harmonious and diverse forms which are seen on every hand developed out of slime; that it just happened without direction or purpose; that it all came into being by blind accident; that it is merely remarkable luck that we have hands, feet, head and eyes!

Minor correction - evolution presupposes the existence of life, in some form convenient to the theory. It makes no attempt to explain the origin of life.

[Fortigurn]

Leah, on Mar 5 2003, 09:40 AM, said:

I'm yet to see where I am wrong but, yes, I'd like to see your side of the story

Very briefly - Revelation 13 tells us that the number '666' is the number of the name of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 when written in Greek.

The fourth beast in Daniel 7 is an empire. No empire was called 'Vicarius Fillii Dei' or 'Duxcleri', and 'Romith' is excluded on the basis of it being predicated on the use of the Hebrew alphabet.

[Fortigurn]

Leah, on Mar 5 2003, 11:08 AM, said:

Cripes! Don't you think it is rather coincidental that all three names add up to 666??

That depends on how you spell them.