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The Deity Of Jesus Christ.


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#31 brotherswmiller

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 06:27 PM

Anastasis.

JESUS SAID
HE IS GOD
What the Bible Teaches: JESUS


"I've heard that Jesus never actually claimed He was God."

John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, `I am the Son of God.'"

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.


"When Jesus said 'I and the Father are one' didn't He just mean they are of one accord, they are merely like-minded?"

Taken alone, statements such as "I and the Father are one." and "The Father is in me, and I am in the Father." could mean simply that Jesus agrees with Jehovah. But in the overall context of the Bible this cannot be:

John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:10 [Speaking to the Father] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

Note: Jesus never claimed to be Jehovah. He claimed to be one "person" of the Trinity. (The term "person" refers to human beings and, therefore does not totally accurately describe the nature of these divine "persons." The late Dr. Walter Martin once described "God" as a being with "three centers of consciousness.")


Note: "Son of Man" was a term referring to the expected Messiah.

Mark 14:61b-62 [61b] Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" [62] "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Luke 22:66-70 [66] At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. [67] "If you are the Christ, " they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, [68] and if I asked you, you would not answer. [69] But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God." [70] They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

Daniel 7:13-14 [13] "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. [14] He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.


"If Jesus claimed He was God, why did He say the Father is greater?"

John 14:28 "You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Sadly, the original Greek text was mistranslated centuries ago and the mistranslation has become "tradition".

John 14:28 [Latin Vulgate] "audistis quia ego dixi vobis vado et venio ad vos si diligeretis me gauderetis utique quia vado ad Patrem quia Pater maior me est

The Latin word maior shown here is the source of the English words "major" and "majority".


In the original Greek, the word used for "greater" means more blessed, not greater in nature.

It's like saying "The President is greater than the Vice President."

On the word translated "greater"

Strong's Greek Concordance Number: 3107

Romanized spelling: makarios

Pronounciation: mak-AR-ee-os

Meaning: supremely blest; by extension, fortunate, well off: -- blessed, happy(-ier)



Jesus clearly and repeatedly indicated that He is not the one who "calls the shots":

John 14:31 the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

John 7:16 Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me."

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me."

John 17:3-12 [3] Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. [4] I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. [5] And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. [6] I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. [7] Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. [8] For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. [9] I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. [10] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. [11] I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one. [12] While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.


THE HEBREW BIBLE (OLD TESTAMENT)
SAYS GOD HAS A SON


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From The Tanakh -- The New JPS Translation
© 1985 by the Jewish Publication Society

Proverbs 30:4 [JPS]

Who has ascended heaven and come down?
Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hand?
Who has wrapped the waters in his garment?
Who was established all the extremeties of the earth?
What is his name or his son's name, if you know it?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Proverbs 30:4 [NKJV] Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?


THE HEBREW BIBLE (THE OLD TESTAMENT) SAYS THAT GOD WOULD COME TO EARTH AS A HUMAN MALE.

Isaiah 9:6-7 [6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. ...


When Jesus claimed to be God incarnate, either:

He was telling the truth.
He was lying -- He wasn't God and knew it.
He was a lunatic -- He wasn't God but thought He was.
This is known as The Trilemna.



Brother SWMiller.

#32 Anastasis

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 06:37 PM

Brother SWMiller,


Are we reading the same Bible? None of the verses you quote say Jesus is the Almigthy. Let just take one of them;

John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.


Note that last sentence. Is this the Almighty God speaking? Beware! If say that the Father is God and the Son human, then you have given up the trinity. But how else could you read it? Now if we go to 2 Cor. 5v19, we can identify the Father as God, compare to John 14v10; "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself".

The Father is greater than I. Tertullian understood it like most of us on this board do, the Father is one greater. That the Son is very mighty, doesn't make the Son equal to the Father. Jesus speaks of oneness in the spirit with the Father, hence believers are also to be one (John 17v11).


God Bless
The Father is not one Person and the Son another, but ... they are one and the same.... The Spirit which became incarnate in the virgin, is not different from the Father, but one and the same.... That which is seen, which is man [is] the Son; whereas the Spirit, which was contained in the Son [is] the Father.... I will not profess belief in two Gods, Father and Son, but in one . . . for the Father, who subsisted [rested] in the Son Himself, after He had taken unto Himself our flesh, raised it to the nature of Deity, by bringing it into union with Himself, and made it one; so the Father and the Son must be styled one God, and that this person being one, cannot be two. (Callistus' statement of faith)

#33 brotherswmiller

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 11:13 PM

Dear Anastasis.

The Trinity

God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.
There is, though, an apparent separation of some functions among the members of the Godhead. For example, the Father chooses who will be saved (Eph. 1:4); the Son redeems them (Eph. 1:7); and the Holy Spirit seals them, (Eph. 1:13).
A further point of clarification is that God is not one person, the Father, with Jesus as a creation and the Holy Spirit is a force (Jehovah's Witnesses). Neither is He one person who took three consecutive forms, i.e., the Father, became the Son, who became the Holy Spirit. Nor is God the divine nature of the Son (where Jesus had a human nature perceived as the Son and a divine nature perceived as the Father (United Pentecostal). Nor is the Trinity an office held by three separate Gods (Mormonism).
The chart below should help you to see how the doctrine of the Trinity is derived from Scripture. The list is not exhaustive, only illustrative. "I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

The Trinity


FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT
Called God Phil. 1:2 John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9 Acts 5:3-4
Creator Isaiah 64:8 John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17 Job 33:4, 26:13
Resurrects 1 Thess. 1:10 John 2:19, 10:17 Rom. 8:11
Indwells 2 Cor. 6:16 Col. 1:27 John 14:17
Everywhere 1 Kings 8:27 Matt. 28:20 Psalm 139:7-10
All knowing 1 John 3:20 John 16:30; 21:17 1 Cor. 2:10-11
Sanctifies 1 Thess. 5:23 Heb. 2:11 1 Pet. 1:2
Life giver Gen. 2:7: John 5:21 John 1:3; 5:21 2 Cor. 3:6,8
Fellowship 1 John 1:3 1 Cor. 1:9 2 Cor. 13:14; Phil. 2:1
Eternal Psalm 90:2 Micah 5:1-2 Rom. 8:11; Heb. 9:14
A Will Luke 22:42 Luke 22:42 1 Cor. 12:11
Speaks Matt. 3:17; Luke 9:25 Luke 5:20; 7:48 Acts 8:29; 11:12; 13:2
Love John 3:16 Eph. 5:25 Rom. 15:30
Searches the heart Jer. 17:10 Rev. 2:23 1 Cor. 2:10
We belong to John 17:9 John 17:6 . . .
Savior
1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3; 4:10 2 Tim. 1:10; Titus 1:4; 3:6 . . .
We serve Matt. 4:10 Col. 3:24 . . .
Believe in John 14:1 John 14:1 . . .
Gives joy . . .
John 15:11 John 14:7
Judges John 8:50 John 5:21,30 . . .



Brother SWMiller.

#34 brotherswmiller

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 11:22 PM

Dear Phebe.

Jesus is God

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

JESUS
IS
GOD, "YAHWEH"

John 1:3, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
Col. 1:16-17, "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Creator
Job 33:4, "The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life."
Isaiah 40:28, "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom."
Rev. 1:17, "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’"
Rev. 2:8, "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again."
Rev. 22:13, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." First and Last
Isaiah 41:4, "Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD -- with the first of them and with the last -- I am he."
Isaiah 44:6, "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."
Isaiah 48:12, "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."
John 8:24, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NKJV)
John 8:58, "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" See Exodus 3:14
John 13:19, "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He." I AM

"ego eimi"
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"
Isaiah 43:10, "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."
See also Deut. 32:39
2 Tim. 4:1, "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..."
2 Cor. 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." Judge
Joel 3:12, "Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side."
Rom. 14:10, "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."
Matt. 2:2, "...Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."
Luke 23:3, "So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied."
See also John 19:21 King
Jer. 10:10, "But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath."
Isaiah 44:6-8, "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."
See also Psalm 47
John 8:12,"When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Luke 2:32, "a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."
See also John 1:7-9 Light
Psalm 27:1, "The LORD is my light and my salvation -- whom shall I fear?"
Isaiah 60:20 ,"our sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end."
1 John 1:5, "God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."
1 Cor. 10:, "...for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."
See also 1 Pet. 2:. Rock
Deut. 32:4, "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."
See also 2 Sam. 22:32 and Isaiah 17:10.
John 4:24, "They said to the woman, ‘We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.’"
1 John 4:14, "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world." Savior
Isaiah 43:3, "For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior"
Isaiah 45:21, "...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."
John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."
Heb. 13:20, "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,"
See also John 10:14,16; 1 Pet. 2:25 Shepherd
Psalm 23:1, "The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want."
Isaiah 40:11, "He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young."

Brother SWMiller.

#35 Fortigurn

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 11:40 PM

x:Brother SWMiller replies that Christ claimed to be the God of the Old Testament.(St.John.8:58)

Christ claimed to be the I AM of (Exodus.3:14).


You will find a response to John 8:58 here.

Where did Christ claim to be the 'I AM' of Exodus 3:14?
A couple of things you need to know about that Exodus quote:

1) The Hebrew is 'I will be', not 'I am'.

2) The Greek in the LXX is 'ego eimi ho on'. Christ never said this.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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target="_blank">Apologetics

#36 Fortigurn

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 11:40 PM

Answers on the usual 'echad' and 'yachid' and 'elohim' arguments (usually ripped from Fruchtenbaum), may be found here.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#37 Fortigurn

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 11:42 PM

"ego eimi"

Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"


The Greek words in the LXX are not 'ego eimi', but 'ego eimi ho on'. Christ never used these words.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#38 Fortigurn

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 11:45 PM

brotherswmiller, so far you are making a case for Modalism. You are insisting that only Jesus is 'Yahweh'.

This is a problem for you, because:

1) Scripture insists that Yahweh is the only God.

2) Scripture insists that Yahweh is one person.

3) Scripture insists that Yahweh is the Father, not the son.

When you want to try for trinitarianism, I suggest you come back with different arguments. Most of what you have here looks like it's been ripped straight from the Oneness Pentecostals.

Ascribing titles of God to Christ (shepherd, rock, etc), does not make Christ God. You should know this, and you would know this if you had seen these titles ascribed both to men and to angels.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#39 Fortigurn

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 11:45 PM

John 8:
4I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


When Christ says here 'I am he', does he mean 'I am God', or even 'I am YHWH'? No. He goes on to say:

(NLT)
28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man on the cross, then you will realize that I am he and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak what the Father taught me.


So in fact, in verse 24 Christ is saying 'I am the son of man', which even the most diehard trinitarian accepts is a reference to his humanity.

John 13:
18I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.


Again, 'I am he' what? Christ is saying that they would realise that he was the one of whom this passage of Scripture was spoken, a passage well known to be messianic.

Even Bibles with a trinitarian bias acknowledge this:

(NLT)
18 “I am not saying these things to all of you; I know so well each one of you I chose. The Scriptures declare, ‘The one who shares my food has turned against me,’ and this will soon come true.
19 I tell you this now, so that when it happens you will believe I am the Messiah.


(LB)
18“I am not saying these things to all of you; I know so well each one of you I chose. The Scripture declares, ‘One who eats supper with me will betray me,’ and this will soon come true.
19I tell you this now so that when it happens, you will believe on me.


(NCV)
18 “I am not talking about all of you. I know those I have chosen. But this is to bring about what the Scripture said: ‘The man who ate at my table has turned against me.’
19 I am telling you this now before it happens so that when it happen s, you will believe that I am he.


(NRSV)
18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But it is to fulfill the scripture, ‘The one who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’
19 I tell you this now, before it occurs, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am he.

(RSV)
18 I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’
19 I tell you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he.


Note that they all say 'I am he', not 'I am', which is what you want. Note also that they make the point that Christ is speaking of his fulfillment of this passage of Scripture as the Messiah, not some fulfillment of Exodus as God.

That's ripping his words completely out of context in the most blatant fashion.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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target="_blank">Apologetics

#40 Fortigurn

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 11:47 PM

"I've heard that Jesus never actually claimed He was God."

John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'?

Are you trying to argue that Jesus is the Father? Is this why you have used this quote? Doesn't it say that Jesus is the Father? If not, what does it say?

And where does it say that Jesus is God?
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

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target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
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‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#41 Guest_Alethia_*

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 03:58 PM

Mr Miller,

You should tell us the source from which you are copying your long posts. Such material should not be posted without attribution. It does not seem likely that you are writing it yourself.

It would also be better if you entered into actual discussion of these subjects, rather than just posting additional long pieces.

#42 Kesaph

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 04:26 PM

I agree with Alethia. Didn't want to say it myself, I think that just copying from texts doesn't prove to us that you can argue your points yourself. After I could just copy what other Christadelphians post on here as we all believe similar (not exactly the same it would appear) things, but that doesn't prove to every one else that I hold the same convictions, nor does it help me personally like arguing my point in my own words does.

No offence is intended by this post - nor do I feel that you don't belive what you re posting.
Prov 25:2
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#43 Administrator

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Posted 23 February 2003 - 12:02 PM

This...

Jesus could only have been one of four things: a legend, a liar, a lunatic--or Lord and God.


...is a false dilemma.

It also begs the question "OK, so what if he was a legend, liar or lunatic?"

Certainly, these options are by no means precluded. <_<
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#44 echad

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Posted 23 February 2003 - 09:00 PM

>Jesus could only have been one of four things - a legend, a liar, a lunatic, or Lord and God<

A "false dilemma" also because it does not include a 5th (and correct) choice - that he was the "MAN Christ Jesus" the mediator BETWEEN God and man (1Tim.2:5) who was "MADE Lord" (Acts.2:36).

Chris
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#45 Administrator

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Posted 23 February 2003 - 09:26 PM

An excellent point, echad.

Thankyou for bringing it up. :)
"Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer."
Colossians 4:6 NIV

#46 Fortigurn

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Posted 24 February 2003 - 11:26 AM

Attention Mr Miller, we await your response. :)
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#47 franklin

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Posted 25 February 2003 - 07:13 PM

I didn't have time to read your entire post there SWM, just don't have that kind of time available but I'd like to ask you some question's if I may....

Could Jesus have sinned?

Was it impossible that Jesus could sin?

Or, but because of how he lived his life, was it improbable that he would have sinned, though there was the possibility he could have?

You don't have to go into multiple posts to answer. Thank you.

FR

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Posted 25 February 2003 - 09:25 PM

Could Jesus have sinned? Was it impossible that Jesus could sin? Or, but because of how he lived his life, was it improbable that he would have sinned, though there was the possibility he could have?


Yes, Jesus could have sinned but didn't. He is the only man on earth who has achieved this.

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with feeling of our infirmities; but wall in *all* points (ie the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life) tempted like as we are, yet *without* sin" (Hebrews 4:15)

Christ had a will of his own and had to fight it to follow His Father's will. That is why in the Sermon on the Mount he advices us to include the following in our prayers to God - "Thy will be done".

The Bible also states that "the Son of man" is coming to judge us. If Christ gives us the rejection virdict on Mt Sinai (heaven forbid!!) we are unable to say to him - "Well, how can *you* be so critical seeing you have no idea what us humans had to battle with" because he knows and understands *exactly* what we are going through as he had to battle his very own sinfully inclined nature while on earth.

#49 Defender of the Faith

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 04:23 PM

I think you won on the debate of John 8:58. In fact I never even use that verse because there may be evidence that is was changed. Much like I never use 1 John 5:9 for the Trinity (is it verse 9 or 7?) I dunno.

But the fact remains that I think perhaps he is awaiting your response on the other warehourse of verses he posted. You neutralized one verse, but the rest are still in effect. As far as I can see it, as long as those verses go unchecked brothermiller seems to have the advantage. TTYL Jesus loves you!
If true happiness were measured by a life of physical ease and freedom from all cares and worries, then the happiest individual would be Howard, my pet gerbil!

#50 Evangelion

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 05:21 PM

Defender -

I think you won on the debate of John 8:58.


Thankyou very much. I always appreciate people who are ready to give credit where they believe credit to be due. (And I speak as one of them myself.) :)

In fact I never even use that verse because there may be evidence that is was changed.


That's interesting, because I have studied the verse in question for longer than I care to tell you, and I have never seen any evidence that it was changed.

Much like I never use 1 John 5:9 for the Trinity (is it verse 9 or 7?) I dunno.


It's verse 7.

But the fact remains that I think perhaps he is awaiting your response on the other warehourse of verses he posted.


Yes, he probably is.

You neutralized one verse, but the rest are still in effect.


Alas, no. They're not "in effect" until he actually presents a solid argument from each and every one. To date, he has merely chucked them onto the forum and claimed that they support his Christology.

He has yet to formulate a specific argument for each proof text.

As far as I can see it, as long as those verses go unchecked brothermiller seems to have the advantage. TTYL Jesus loves you!


As far as I can see it, brotherswmiller knows how to copy/paste - just like any other Trinitarian I have met. But I have seen no evidence that he knows how to (a) formulate his own arguments, (b) write his own material, and/or © defend the proof texts which he has so clearly plagiarised from... some unspecified source. :wub:
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#51 echad

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 06:45 PM

EV,

I think Defender may be referencing the fact that in John 8:58 the "he" is not added to the text for grammer as it is added in other spots ("I am he"). Perhaps the Trin translators saw a big chance to insinuate a parallel with Exodus, right after Jesus said "Before Abraham was", by not adding the "he"?


Chris
"Today I saw a red-and-yellow sunset and thought, how insignificant I am! Of course, I thought that yesterday, too, and it rained" (Woody Allen)

#52 Mercia

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 08:55 AM

The real question is "What think ye of Christ?" The answer does not depend upon critical investigations but on the response and regeneration of your heart! If you have not yet received Him into your heart as Savior and Lord, do it now without delay


I'm afraid I don't go for airy fairy Christianity (no offence meant)

Christ says - "Ye are my friends *if* ye do whatsoever I *command* you"

He wants us to *follow* his *commandments* not merely say - "Yes, my heart accepts Jesus"

Need to run a few errands so I'll be back later on. Bye for now!

Trusting in what is natural, whether is be the papacy as he is perceived at the level of our senses (natural man), the Creation over the Creator (as this is seen or perceived at the level of our senses) or a idol of wood or metal (as this is seen or perceived at the level of our senses) as opposed to what is not seen (being all that Jesus revealed in the context of His ministry to lead us out of Egypt and its perceptions gthereof) has been the deception from the very beggininng, and is still the deception today in relation to the latter day Church as will be seen, who by way of their beliefs unique to these latter days for this reason, are upholding Egypt (and its perceptions thereof), even though they are warned, “they that uphold the spirit of Egypt shall fall, and the pride of her power will be brought down” (Ezek. 30:6). “And all her helpers will be destroyed” (Ez. 30:8). As on every matter we mould the Word to confirm with the latter day wisdom of this world, and the testimony of our senses or material body (like serpents) we become deceived (as this is what the Lord has purposed upon Egypt “Where are they? Where are thy wise men? And let them tell thee now, and let them know what the Lord hath purposed upon Egypt” (Isaiah 19:12), when brought by pressuposssitions to the World), and our trust in it (the wisdom derived at the level of our senses in which we trust, our shame).
Now as this is the deception of natural man, who is the beast “so foolish was I and ignorant, I was as a beast before thee”, and as natural man is a spiritual Egyptian, “Now the Egyptions are men and not God, and their horses (are flesh) and (not spirit)” who like a serpent, purposes to believe nothing that does not accord with their wisdom derived at the level of their material body or senses, from which (like serpents) they judge all things, (as such wisdom that does not accord in this respect is foolishness to them), so it is said “Sarah saw the son of THE EGYPTIAN, which she had born unto Abraham MOCKING”. (As Isaac signifies the Messiah), and 8 signifies the Messiah (Iouses = 888), thus in a grave warning to the latter day church (due to the prevailing spirit of Egypt) it is said, “And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being EIGHT days old” (Gen. 21:3). Isaac here represnts the Messiah, even Lord Jesus. And that Egypt it foolishness with the wisdom of this world is evident allegorically from Genesis 21:10, where “Sarah saw the son of THE EGYTIAN, which she had born unto Abraham MOCKING”, for the same reason Paul says of natural man, “for the preaching of the message is to them that perish is FOOLISHNESS” (Corin. 1:18), and as these (the sipritual Egyptians/natural man) are not to be heirs with Lord Jesus (due to their trust in the serpent, and information derived at the level of their senses – the science and wisdom of natural man). So it is said in Corinthians 1:18 that the message is “foolishness” to them that perish, for the same reason the Egyptain is mocking at the mriacluaous birth of Isaac (the virgin birth). A grave warning to the Egyptian church (the latter day church who uphold the science and wisdom of natural man) and by example of their beliefs unique to these latter days due to their trust in it (the science and wisdom of natural man) – uphold Egypt, and its perceptions and beliefs thereof, and due to the latter day perception that our knowledge has increased in this context, no longer belive in the immaculate conception. as over half do not according to some reports, (due to the latter day science and wisdom of natural man), wherefore it is also said, in the very next verse of Genesis (21:10), “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH MY SON, even Isaac”.

#53 Mercia

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 09:30 PM

Jesus, Gods wisdom, the prophecies
click here -
http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_AOA.html

The Word was in the beginning (John 1:1)
Wisdom was in the beginning (Prov. 8:22-23, Sir. 1:4, Wis. 9:9)
The Word was with God (John 1:1)
Wisdom was with God (Prov. 8:30, Sir. 1:1, Wis. 9:4)
The Word was cocreator (John 1:1-3)
Wisdom was cocreator (Prov. 3:19, 8:25; Is. 7:21, 9:1-2)
The Word provides light (John 1:4, 9)
Wisdom provides light (Prov. 8:22, Wis. 7:26, 8:13; Sir. 4:12)
Word as light in contrast to darkness (John 1:5)
Wisdom as light in contrast to darkness (Wis. 7:29-30)
The Word was in the world (John 1:10)
Wisdom was in the world (Wis. 8:1, Sir. 24:6)
The Word was rejected by its own (John 1:11)
Wisdom was rejected by its own (Sir. 15:7)
The Word was received by the faithful (John 1:12)
Wisdom was received by the faithful (Wis. 7:27)
Christ is the bread of life (John 6:35)
Wisdom is the bread or substance of life (Prov. 9:5, Sir. 15:3, 24:21, 29:21; Wis. 11:4)
Christ is the light of the world (John 8:12)
Wisdom is light (Wis. 7:26-30, 18:3-4)
Christ is the door of the sheep and the good shepherd (John 10:7, 11, 14)
Wisdom is the door and the good shepherd (Prov. 8:34-5, Wis. 7:25-7, 8:2-16; Sir. 24:19-22)
Christ is life (John 11:25)
Wisdom brings life (Prov. 3:16, 8:35, 9:11; Wis. 8:13)
Christ is the way to truth (John 14:6)
Wisdom is the way (Prov. 3:17, 8:32-34; Sir. 6:26)
The letters of Paul continue the identification of Jesus with God's Wisdom. 1 Corinthians 1:24, 30 is the most clear: Christ is explicitly identified as "the power of God and the wisdom of God." Elsewhere in 1 Cor. of relevance:

Wisdom 1:4: Wisdom existed before all things....
1 Corinthians 2:7: ...wisdom that God predestined before the ages....
Wisdom 1:6: To whom has the root of wisdom been revealed?
1 Corinthians 2:10: God revealed these things to us....
Wisdom 1:10: ...he has given [wisdom] to those who love him.
1 Corinthians 2:9: ...which God has prepared for those who love him.
Wisdom 1:15: [Wisdom] has built an eternal foundation among men....
1 Corinthians 3:10: ...as a wise architect I laid down a foundation....
Wisdom 2:5: Gold is tested in the fire....
1 Corinthians 3:12-13: And if any man builds upon the foundation with gold or silver or precious stones..., it is to be revealed in fire.
Colossians 1:15-18 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
This passage is full of allusions to the Wisdom literature. Note the following parallels:

Colossians 1:15a He is the image of the invisible God...
Wisdom of Solomon 7:26 (Wisdom is) a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.
Colossians 1:15b ...the firstborn over all creation.
Philo's reference to Wisdom as the "firstborn son" and offspring of God. For more on this matter see here.

Colossians 1:16a ...by him all things were created..
Wisdom of Solomon 1:14 "for he created all things that they might exist"
Sirach 1:4 and Philo refer to Wisdom as the "master workman" of creation.

Colossians 1:17b He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Wisdom of Solomon 1:7 ...that which holds all things together knows what is said...
The book of Hebrews, while never identifying Jesus directly as Wisdom, does indicate an equivalence. In verse 3 the rare Greek term apaygasma is used to describe Jesus as the "brightness of God's glory," just as the word is used in Wisdom of Solomon (7:25-26) to describe Wisdom's radiance. Hebrews ascribes to Jesus the same functions that the Philonic/Alexandrian Wisdom literature assigned to Wisdom: mediator of divine revelation, agent and sustainer of creation, and reconciler of God and man (Wisdom of Solomon 7:21-8:1). For more on this word see here.

#54 Mercia

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 06:05 PM

The real question is "What think ye of Christ?" The answer does not depend upon critical investigations but on the response and regeneration of your heart! If you have not yet received Him into your heart as Savior and Lord, do it now without delay


I'm afraid I don't go for airy fairy Christianity (no offence meant)

Christ says - "Ye are my friends *if* ye do whatsoever I *command* you"

He wants us to *follow* his *commandments* not merely say - "Yes, my heart accepts Jesus"

Need to run a few errands so I'll be back later on. Bye for now!

Trusting in what is natural, whether is be the papacy as he is perceived at the level of our senses (natural man), the Creation over the Creator (as this is seen or perceived at the level of our senses) or a idol of wood or metal (as this is seen or perceived at the level of our senses) as opposed to what is not seen (being all that Jesus revealed in the context of His ministry to lead us out of Egypt and its perceptions gthereof) has been the deception from the very beggininng, and is still the deception today in relation to the latter day Church as will be seen, who by way of their beliefs unique to these latter days for this reason, are upholding Egypt (and its perceptions thereof), even though they are warned, “they that uphold the spirit of Egypt shall fall, and the pride of her power will be brought down” (Ezek. 30:6). “And all her helpers will be destroyed” (Ez. 30:8). As on every matter we mould the Word to confirm with the latter day wisdom of this world, and the testimony of our senses or material body (like serpents) we become deceived (as this is what the Lord has purposed upon Egypt “Where are they? Where are thy wise men? And let them tell thee now, and let them know what the Lord hath purposed upon Egypt” (Isaiah 19:12), when brought by pressuposssitions to the World), and our trust in it (the wisdom derived at the level of our senses in which we trust, our shame).
Now as this is the deception of natural man, who is the beast “so foolish was I and ignorant, I was as a beast before thee”, and as natural man is a spiritual Egyptian, “Now the Egyptions are men and not God, and their horses (are flesh) and (not spirit)” who like a serpent, purposes to believe nothing that does not accord with their wisdom derived at the level of their material body or senses, from which (like serpents) they judge all things, (as such wisdom that does not accord in this respect is foolishness to them), so it is said “Sarah saw the son of THE EGYPTIAN, which she had born unto Abraham MOCKING”. (As Isaac signifies the Messiah), and 8 signifies the Messiah (Iouses = 888), thus in a grave warning to the latter day church (due to the prevailing spirit of Egypt) it is said, “And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being EIGHT days old” (Gen. 21:3). Isaac here represnts the Messiah, even Lord Jesus. And that Egypt it foolishness with the wisdom of this world is evident allegorically from Genesis 21:10, where “Sarah saw the son of THE EGYTIAN, which she had born unto Abraham MOCKING”, for the same reason Paul says of natural man, “for the preaching of the message is to them that perish is FOOLISHNESS” (Corin. 1:18), and as these (the sipritual Egyptians/natural man) are not to be heirs with Lord Jesus (due to their trust in the serpent, and information derived at the level of their senses – the science and wisdom of natural man). So it is said in Corinthians 1:18 that the message is “foolishness” to them that perish, for the same reason the Egyptain is mocking at the mriacluaous birth of Isaac (the virgin birth). A grave warning to the Egyptian church (the latter day church who uphold the science and wisdom of natural man) and by example of their beliefs unique to these latter days due to their trust in it (the science and wisdom of natural man) – uphold Egypt, and its perceptions and beliefs thereof, and due to the latter day perception that our knowledge has increased in this context, no longer belive in the immaculate conception. as over half do not according to some reports, (due to the latter day science and wisdom of natural man), wherefore it is also said, in the very next verse of Genesis (21:10), “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH MY SON, even Isaac”.

John 10
17"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.
> anyone got any thoughts on this?

#55 Kremlin

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 06:31 PM

Yes.

He clearly had power to lay it down, because when he died it was a voluntary act. It says that he knew scripture had to be fulfilled, and said "I thirst". After this little scenario was acted out he cried out "It is finished", and then yielded up his spirit (Father into thy hands I commit my spirit). Note also that Pilate was surprised at his expiration, since it was expected that he would live much longer. Clearly he gave up his life (and had power to do so at any time, but waited until all scripture was fulfilled).

He had power to take it again, because he lived a sinless life. It was written 'the grave could not hold him' - this is because the wages of sin are death, and although due to his natural pedigree from adam he was subject to death, due to his sinless life it was not possible the grave could hold him, and hence his power to come back to life. Gods righteousness demands that sin brings death, likewise his righteousness demands that obedience brings life. By Christs obedience, he came back to life.

Krem ^_^

#56 Mercia

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 11:57 PM

Yes.

He clearly had power to lay it down, because when he died it was a voluntary act. It says that he knew scripture had to be fulfilled, and said "I thirst". After this little scenario was acted out he cried out "It is finished", and then yielded up his spirit (Father into thy hands I commit my spirit). Note also that Pilate was surprised at his expiration, since it was expected that he would live much longer. Clearly he gave up his life (and had power to do so at any time, but waited until all scripture was fulfilled).

He had power to take it again, because he lived a sinless life. It was written 'the grave could not hold him' - this is because the wages of sin are death, and although due to his natural pedigree from adam he was subject to death, due to his sinless life it was not possible the grave could hold him, and hence his power to come back to life. Gods righteousness demands that sin brings death, likewise his righteousness demands that obedience brings life. By Christs obedience, he came back to life.

Krem ^_^

Thanks, well said

Russ

#57 ksalzar

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 12:05 PM

QUOTE (brotherswmiller @ Feb 21 2003, 06:04 PM)


x:Brother SWMiller replies that Christ claimed to be the God of the Old Testament.(St.John.8:58)

Christ claimed to be the I AM of (Exodus.3:14). 



You will find a response to John 8:58 here.

Where did Christ claim to be the 'I AM' of Exodus 3:14?
A couple of things you need to know about that Exodus quote:

1) The Hebrew is 'I will be', not 'I am'.

2) The Greek in the LXX is 'ego eimi ho on'. Christ never said this.


I would like to re-iterate what Defender said about the John 8 reply, you win :book:

Please forgive me for butting in with this question, especially if it has been addressed somewhere and I missed it, here goes...

In my NAS John 10.33 says
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemey; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Did the jews not attempt to stone Jesus here because they thought He was claiming to be God? If so, do you hold that the Jews were misunderstanding what Jesus' claim about Himself was?

Also what does He mean in verse 30 of the same chapter when He says
"I and the Father are one." Actually I will re-read the John 8 response, because I think this phrase or saying has been addressed in it, I've just forgotten already.
The Father is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

#58 Fortigurn

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 12:13 PM

John 10:30. Also here.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#59 ksalzar

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 12:25 PM

Thank Ya kind sir :book:
Ah there it is, I knew I had read the response to the "oness" stuff in a reply somewhere.

I am learning alot by reading these studies, responses, and debates. :curtain:

Edited by ksalzar, 01 November 2003 - 12:28 PM.

The Father is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

#60 Evangelion

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 02:23 PM

Thanks mate. :book:

We're here to help. :curtain:
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas
Imago
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