143 replies to this topic

[Billi]

What's so special about John 1:10?

What do you think of John 5:22? Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Exactly what does "honor" mean in that passage? Is it really that bad to see the Son as equal to the Father? Will that really dishonor the Father? If so, this passage almost makes no sense whatsoever!

Further, if Christadelphians interpretation is really correct, then I don't think people should attend trinitarian church simply because they have family ties to the church. Jesus said so himself, those who wouldn't deny loved ones or him or herself cannot be his disciples. You've gotta follow Jesus and not be to held back by families or loved ones.

As for me, I'm kinda in a similar boat as ksalzar, but I'm still leaning more toward the Trinitarian side. After all, I was saved... believing in the deity of Jesus Christ. I don't think the Trinity Doctrined explained everything; however, I'm also not quite satisfied with the Christadelphian doctrine.

Edited by Billi, 09 March 2004 - 09:27 PM.

[Tarkus]

Billi, on Mar 10 2004, 09:26 AM, said:

What do you think of John 5:22? Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Exactly what does "honor" mean in that passage? Is it really that bad to see the Son as equal to the Father? Will that really dishonor the Father? If so, this passage almost makes no sense whatsoever!

I'll see your John 5v22 and raise you Matt 21v37

Matt 21:33-39 said:

Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

Would shaming the son shame the father? Of course it would.
Would respecting the son show respect to the father? Of course it would.
Does that mean the son is his father?

T

[graknil]

I've never really been puzzled about whether Jesus was equal with God. Jesus himself admits that his Father is greater, and God is the one that has put all things under Jesus showing that Jesus is under God. Seems clear their is some sort of difference there no matter what way you look at it...

John 1:10 on the otherhand - I have never been totally satisfied with anything I have studied on it or read or heard on it....

Ive been puzzling it over for some time now, so I'd be interested if anyone has some ideas.

[Billi]

Tarkus, on Mar 10 2004, 01:01 AM, said:

Billi, on Mar 10 2004, 09:26 AM, said:

What do you think of John 5:22? Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Exactly what does "honor" mean in that passage? Is it really that bad to see the Son as equal to the Father? Will that really dishonor the Father? If so, this passage almost makes no sense whatsoever!

I'll see your John 5v22 and raise you Matt 21v37

Matt 21:33-39 said:

Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

Would shaming the son shame the father? Of course it would.
Would respecting the son show respect to the father? Of course it would.
Does that mean the son is his father?

T

Sorry in advance for the off topic discussion...

Now, the Son and the Father are different, no argument there.

He who humbles himself will be exalted, he who exalt himself will be humbled. Naturally there's no way in hell that Jesus would brag about his greatness, especially when it comes to his Abba. Of course Jesus would say that his Father is greater. His will be done. Jesus most definitely is NOT greater than his Father and Jesus was merely humbling himself infront of his Dad.

We all know that God will deliver his judgments on us eventually. Now, why is it that the Almighty Father doesn't judge, but has entrusted all judgement to the Son? Father acted in a way that pretty much transferred ALL of His authority to the Son. (Father 0% Judgments, Son 100% Judgements) From that perspective, Jesus authority has appeared to be greater than his Father!!! However, again, we all know Jesus will only do his Father's will and will never disobey the Father..., so exactly who is greater? Jesus will say his Father is greater. Father will say, listen to my beloved Son.

[Fortigurn]

Billi, on Mar 11 2004, 04:34 AM, said:

Father acted in a way that pretty much transferred ALL of His authority to the Son. (Father 0% Judgments, Son 100% Judgements) From that perspective, Jesus authority has appeared to be greater than his Father!!!

No, not all His authority. He simply gave His son the authority to judge on His behalf.

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However, again, we all know Jesus will only do his Father's will and will never disobey the Father..., so exactly who is greater? Jesus will say his Father is greater. Father will say, listen to my beloved Son.

Who is greater, the one who delegates his authority to someone else, or the one who only has authority granted to him by someone he calls 'greater'?

Note that the Father nowhere says that the son is greater than Him, but is subject.

[Billi]

Note that I do not believe that the Son is greater than the Father. I don't believe any trinitarian believe that the Son is greater than the Father. Anyone who believes Jesus is greater than his Dad is seriously mistaken!

[Fortigurn]

Billi, on Mar 11 2004, 07:07 AM, said:

Note that I do not believe that the Son is greater than the Father. I don't believe any trinitarian believe that the Son is greater than the Father. Anyone who believes Jesus is greater than his Dad is seriously mistaken!

Well exactly. So if the son is not greater than the Father, but the Father is greater than the son... where does that leave the trinity?

[Billi]

Trinitarians don't believe any one is greater than the other two. Jesus is a humble person. Naturally he'll tell you that his Father is greater. We also know that Jesus is a very forgiving man, we can crucify him and he'll allow us to do that to him and begs his Father to forgive us... but why is it that he wants us to respect the Holy Spirit so much more than him... and if we offend it, Jesus said we'll never be forgiven? According to our baptism ritual, Holy Spirit ranks 3rd, after the Father and the Son, what's so special about God's power?

Trinitarians believe all three to be equal in nature, power, authority, etc. Whatever the Father can do, so can the Son and the Holy Spirit. They don't glorify themselves, they glorify each other. However, of the 3, there can only be one who is the leader, namely the Father. The other two will harmoniously follow the will of the Father because the three of them are essentially One. God the Father, God's son and God's power is God. I'm not saying the two 'followers' are greater than the leader, I'm just saying that they are equal and they can do everything the Father can and wants them to do.

[Martyn]

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Trinitarians believe all three to be equal in nature, power, authority, etc.

You got any Scripture to go with that Billi?

[Fortigurn]

Billi, on Mar 11 2004, 08:35 AM, said:

Trinitarians don't believe any one is greater than the other two.

There's your problem right there - Christ said that the Father was greater than he.

[Dianne]

Billi, on Mar 10 2004, 04:35 PM, said:

Trinitarians don't believe any one is greater than the other two.

The Bible does.

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Jesus is a humble person. Naturally he'll tell you that his Father is greater.

Not only because he was/is humble but because it's true and Jesus doesn't lie.

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We also know that Jesus is a very forgiving man, we can crucify him and he'll allow us to do that to him and begs his Father to forgive us... but why is it that he wants us to respect the Holy Spirit so much more than him...

Because the Holy Spirit is closely related to the Father and to blaspheme the Holy Spirit would be to Blasheme the Father.

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what's so special about God's power?

See above.

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Trinitarians believe all three to be equal in nature, power, authority, etc.

Bible says differently.

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Whatever the Father can do, so can the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Only through the authority of the Father.

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However, of the 3, there can only be one who is the leader, namely the Father.

How can this be when you just said "Trinitarians believe all three to be equal in nature, power, and authority, etc. "?

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The other two will harmoniously follow the will of the Father because the three of them are essentially One.

Then the Father is the leader.

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God the Father, God's son and God's power is God. I'm not saying the two 'followers' are greater than the leader.

Then they are all not equal.

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I'm just saying that they are equal and they can do everything the Father can and wants them to do.

When ever someone is designated a leader, then he is superior, which means there is no equality.

Edited by Dianne, 10 March 2004 - 10:23 PM.

[Billi]

If the Holy Spirit is so closely attached to the Father, then why aren't we baptized in the name of the Father, Holy Spirit and then the Son?

Further, leader does not necessarily mean greater all the time. President of the USA is called a public servant. Yes, he has lots of special powers, but the citizens of the US could vote him out of office if they want. So exactly who's has more authority?

Anyway, as far as I know, seeing Jesus, is seeing the Father. Treating Jesus well, is treating the Father well. Following Jesus is following the Father. Obeying Jesus is obeying the Father. Worshipping Jesus is worshipping the Father. Jesus is the 'link' so that I can stay connected to the Father. Is this 'link' devine in nature? I'm inclined to believe 'yes', simply because he has managed to remained sinless while roaming around in our fallen world. By recognizing Jesus as deity, does it screw up the traditional monotheistic Jewish belief? No, this 'link' doesn't present us with 3 gods, but he helps us stay connected to the one true God. The 3 work together so that we may stay close to our God. (Without Holy Spirit, Mary wouldn't get pregnant and there'll be no Jesus and all of us will surely die.)

[Huldah]

Billi, on Mar 10 2004, 09:35 PM, said:

Trinitarians don't believe any one is greater than the other two. Jesus is a humble person. Naturally he'll tell you that his Father is greater.

So you believe that the Father isn't greater than Jesus whilst Jesus will naturally tell you the Father is greater.

So you believe that Jesus is using empty flattery here???

I'd like to know why the Father is called the God of Jesus if He's not greater - and it's Paul who says it.

[Huldah]

Billi, on Mar 10 2004, 10:58 PM, said:

Anyway, as far as I know, seeing Jesus, is seeing the Father. Treating Jesus well, is treating the Father well. Following Jesus is following the Father. Obeying Jesus is obeying the Father. Worshipping Jesus is worshipping the Father. Jesus is the 'link' so that I can stay connected to the Father.

And where does the Holy Spirit fit into this equation of seeing, treating, following, obeying, etc., it seems to be dominated by 2 thirds of what you call God.

[Dianne]

Billi, on Mar 10 2004, 05:58 PM, said:

If the Holy Spirit is so closely attached to the Father, then why aren't we baptized in the name of the Father, Holy Spirit and then the Son?

Because that formula does not signify 'order of rank'.

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Further, leader does not necessarily mean greater all the time. President of the USA is called a public servant. Yes, he has lots of special powers, but the citizens of the US could vote him out of office if they want. So exactly who's has more authority?

Well that may be the case of the president but that is not the case for God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ.

There is no record in scripture that indicates that one can be voted off. AND also there is no indication in scripture where God acts as anyone's servant. In Scripture it is clear that ONLY the Father has the authority and ONLY the Father can designate authority to whom ever he pleases.

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Anyway, as far as I know, seeing Jesus, is seeing the Father. Treating Jesus well, is treating the Father well. Following Jesus is following the Father. Obeying Jesus is obeying the Father. Worshipping Jesus is worshipping the Father. Jesus is the 'link' so that I can stay connected to the Father. Is this 'link' devine in nature?

No. If Jesus acts/speaks on God's behalf then all you say makes perfect sense. He's a representative of God on earth.

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I'm inclined to believe 'yes', simply because he has managed to remained sinless while roaming around in our fallen world. By recognizing Jesus as deity, does it screw up the traditional monotheistic Jewish belief? No, this 'link' doesn't present us with 3 gods, but he helps us stay connected to the one true God.

Sure it does because neither are equal in power, as you've stated before there is only One leader of the three. If one is above the other, then there is some distinction.

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The 3 work together so that we may stay close to our God. (Without Holy Spirit, Mary wouldn't get pregnant and there'll be no Jesus and all of us will surely die.)

No, without God, there would be no immaculate conception. Remember you said:

"I'm just saying that they are equal and they can do everything the Father can and wants them to do. "

This is why the Trinity has always been confusing to me.

Edited by Dianne, 10 March 2004 - 11:57 PM.

[Dianne]

Huldah, on Mar 10 2004, 06:40 PM, said:

I'd like to know why the Father is called the God of Jesus if He's not greater - and it's Paul who says it.

Yup, he sure does.

1 Corinthians 11:3 I believe is what you are referring to. Correct me if you had something else in mind.

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11:3 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman,2 and God is the head of Christ.

There's no where else to go from there.

[Billi]

So you believe women are inferior to men? Or men are greater than women because men are heads of women?

I am male. You are female. Why don't you submit and listen to me as instructed in the Holy Bible Dianne?

[Flappie]

Billi, on Mar 11 2004, 01:33 AM, said:

So you believe women are inferior to men? Or men are greater than women because men are heads of women?

I am male. You are female. Why don't you submit and listen to me as instructed in the Holy Bible Dianne?

Isn't that verse talking about submitting to your husband? Not any random male.

[Tarkus]

Billi, on Mar 11 2004, 12:33 PM, said:

So you believe women are inferior to men? Or men are greater than women because men are heads of women?

I am male. You are female. Why don't you submit and listen to me as instructed in the Holy Bible Dianne?

um, because that verse does not say all men have authority over all women.

T

[Billi]

Huldah, on Mar 10 2004, 11:40 PM, said:

Billi, on Mar 10 2004, 09:35 PM, said:

Trinitarians don't believe any one is greater than the other two. Jesus is a humble person. Naturally he'll tell you that his Father is greater.

So you believe that the Father isn't greater than Jesus whilst Jesus will naturally tell you the Father is greater.

So you believe that Jesus is using empty flattery here???

I'd like to know why the Father is called the God of Jesus if He's not greater - and it's Paul who says it.

Paul also said Jesus is equal and has the same nature as his Father. But when this happens, Christadelphians claims Paul was mistranslated by trinitarian translators.

Who am I to believe?

Just want to make clear that for sure Jesus isn't GREATER than his Father. It is my belief that whatever the Father can do, so can Jesus. Do you guys believe that there is anything that Jesus cannot do that only the Father can do?

[Billi]

Tarkus, on Mar 11 2004, 12:38 AM, said:

Billi, on Mar 11 2004, 12:33 PM, said:

So you believe women are inferior to men? Or men are greater than women because men are heads of women?

I am male. You are female. Why don't you submit and listen to me as instructed in the Holy Bible Dianne?

um, because that verse does not say all men have authority over all women.

T

So once a woman marrys a man, she becomes inferior? Is that what the Bible is teaching?

[Evangelion]

No. :coffee:

[Billi]

Huldah, on Mar 10 2004, 11:42 PM, said:

Billi, on Mar 10 2004, 10:58 PM, said:

Anyway, as far as I know, seeing Jesus, is seeing the Father. Treating Jesus well, is treating the Father well. Following Jesus is following the Father. Obeying Jesus is obeying the Father. Worshipping Jesus is worshipping the Father. Jesus is the 'link' so that I can stay connected to the Father.

And where does the Holy Spirit fit into this equation of seeing, treating, following, obeying, etc., it seems to be dominated by 2 thirds of what you call God.

Every single creation, every single recorded or unrecorded miracles in both old and new Testaments were done by the Holy Spirit. If anything, Holy Spirit is the dominating... or at least the most hard working one!

[Billi]

Evangelion, on Mar 11 2004, 12:41 AM, said:

No. :coffee:

Elaborate please?

[Evangelion]

Billi, on Mar 11 2004, 12:44 AM, said:

Evangelion, on Mar 11 2004, 12:41 AM, said:

No.  :coffee:

Elaborate please?

Men and women lost their equal status as a result of the first sin (Genesis 3.)

Ever since then, they have been unequal - a situation reflected by their relative positions in the divine hierarchy (I Corinthians 11:1-3.)

[Matthew Hawkins]

Hello Billi,

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Trinitarians don't believe any one is greater than the other two. Jesus is a humble person. Naturally he'll tell you that his Father is greater. We also know that Jesus is a very forgiving man, we can crucify him and he'll allow us to do that to him and begs his Father to forgive us... but why is it that he wants us to respect the Holy Spirit so much more than him... and if we offend it, Jesus said we'll never be forgiven? According to our baptism ritual, Holy Spirit ranks 3rd, after the Father and the Son, what's so special about God's power?

Concerning God as being only God the one true omnipotent (All powerful being) being,

see Isa 43:10-12

Concerning Christ as being subject to God, and also as the Son of God,

Please see 1 Cor 15:28, Matt 12:50

The Holy Spirit.

The Holy spirit is God's seperate power.

Please see Acts ch 8, With Peter rebuking Simon the sorcere because he thought he could buy the holy spirit for a sum of money.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit is God's power by which he has used to further his purpose in filling the earth with his glory. It is not 1 third of a trinity at all, as proven from Acts ch 8.

holy = seperate. e.g Holy Bible, = seperate book, Why because it is made up of many seperate books, yet all being interwined with eachother from Genesis to Revelation.

[Flappie]

Matthew, please. Single verse proofs don't work here.

[Billi]

Evangelion, on Mar 11 2004, 12:55 AM, said:

Billi, on Mar 11 2004, 12:44 AM, said:

Evangelion, on Mar 11 2004, 12:41 AM, said:

No.  :coffee:

Elaborate please?

Men and women lost their equal status as a result of the first sin (Genesis 3.)

Ever since then, they have been unequal - a situation reflected by their relative positions in the divine hierarchy (I Corinthians 11:1-3.)

I don't think that's correct. (Gen 2:20) Eve has always been created to help out, to serve Adam. Adam has always been the 'head' of the two. Sin has nothing to do with any of it.

If anything, I'd blame Adam more for the first sin. He knows God didn't want them to eat it and not only did he not stop Eve from eating it, he also went along and allowed Eve to take the initiative(leader role) and instead of obeying God, Adam obeyed Eve and sinned with her.

Anyway EV, you didn't answer my question, if you're married, do you believe your wife is inferior because Eve sinned first?

You see, this is where I disagree. I believe God loves both men and women equally. Obviously the two are not physically identical..., just as Father and Son are not 'physically' identical at all, but the two are eqaul and vital to each other. When joined together in marriage, the two becomes one flesh(Gen 2:24). Man is nothing without woman. Woman is nothing without man. Mankind is man and woman. The two are equal and inseperable. One flesh means only one head. We can't possibly have two heads with one flesh. Just because man is the head, doesn't make woman inferior. Similarly, Father and Son are one. Equal and inseperable. Sitting right next to each other up above. Thanks be to God that we have the Holy Spirit so that even today, we can experience the presence of the Almighty God.

Edited by Billi, 11 March 2004 - 01:54 AM.

[Billi]

Mathew, I'm not sure where you got your definition of "Holy" from.

I always thought Holy means something sacred, consecrated, hallowed, sanctified, blessed, or devine... something incredibly perfect...

I never thought to call my God a Seperate God. My Seperate book is bound together very nicely, thank you very much. I also hope the Seperate Spirit won't be too seperated...

[Flappie]

God loves both men and women equally, doesn't mean they are equal though. In no way is a woman worth less, but she should submit to her husband.