I've spent much time recently following the studies of Mark Biltz of El Shaddai Ministries, a Hebrew Roots ministry. HIs studies of the feasts of Israel, which you can listen to here
http://elshaddaimini....us/fotl_n.html
are excellent. The information he brings out has brought me to a whole new understanding of the feasts and what they represent (God's plan of salvation incorporating the first and second appearance of the Messiah) and also a much deeper understanding of particular events in Jesus' life. Well worth a listen!
Mark has also carried out much research in relation to the solar eclipses and lunar tetrads that will occur on the feast days in 2014-2015. Will they herald the return of Christ, or some other major event in relation to Israel as previous tetrads on feast days have done? I guess we will have to wait and see. Interestingly enough, if we check nasas website we can see that we will also experience a tetrad on the feast days in 2032/2033. This tetrad will be exactly 2000 years since Christs death. Personally, I feel that there is mounting evidence that this could be the year of Christs return as it would complete the patterns that we see in scripture.
Thoughts anyone??
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#2
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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:24 PM
Interesting ideas, but I think predicting the date of Christ's return is impossible.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
#3
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Xi
Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:05 PM
Whilst I accept that we cannot be sure of the year (though I believe we can have a pretty good guess!) I do believe we know the days on which the events will happen. Passover was fulfilled on Passover, Unleavened Bread on Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits on Firstfruits and Pentecost on Pentecost, so we can be confident that just as the Spring feasts were fulfilled to the day at Jesus' first coming, the Autumn feasts will be fulfilled to the exact day at his second coming,,,,,resurrection and judgement will happen on Yom Teruah (Trumpets), Jesus' return will happen on Yom Kippur and the Kingdom established on Tabernacles.
Edited by buckerss, 05 April 2012 - 09:45 PM.
#4
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Xi
Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:09 PM
By the way, Biltz' talks on both the feasts and the blood moons can also be seen with their associated Powerpoint presentations on Youtube. I really can reccomend them.....some of the things he brings out are jaw dropping.
#5
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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:12 AM
Well, Jesus himself apparently wasn't able to work it out, so I doubt we will.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
#6
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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:32 AM
I'm confident that Jesus would have known exactly when he was to return. He knew the scriptures inside out and backwards, and I'm sure would have been fully aware of the role he was to play in Gods plan of salvation. Passages which seem to suggest that Jesus did not know the time of his return can in fact be understood to mean the exact opposite when taking into account the Jewish idioms of the day......eg "no man knows the day nor the hour" was based upon a Jewish idion for the feast of Trumpets which was known as the feast that no man knew the day or hour because of a requirement for the new moon to be witnesed by two seperate witnesses. Hence it seems likely that the resurrection, when it comes, will be on Yom Teruah.....hence all of the feast of trumpets language that is used throughout scripture when the resurrection is discussed.
Edited by buckerss, 06 April 2012 - 11:12 AM.
#7
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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:04 PM
When Jesus said:
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone
...I take that to mean that he didn't know the date of his return. I don't see how it can be interpreted to say the opposite. The context is clearly the day of his return (see the next verse). It would have to be taken completely out of context in order to be applied to any of the feasts.
How many failed predictions of the date of the return of Christ will it take before we realise it's not something we are expected or permitted to know?
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone
...I take that to mean that he didn't know the date of his return. I don't see how it can be interpreted to say the opposite. The context is clearly the day of his return (see the next verse). It would have to be taken completely out of context in order to be applied to any of the feasts.
How many failed predictions of the date of the return of Christ will it take before we realise it's not something we are expected or permitted to know?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
#8
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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:45 AM
Well, if we decided to take the whole of the biblical texts purely on face value then we would have a very different faith to that we proffess. It is impossible to understand what Jesus was saying unless you possess a background knowledge and understanding of the Feasts of the Lord, Jewish idioms and customs of the day. I'm finding the more I learn of the background, the more the text is literally coming alive for me.
Anyway, a couple of points brought out through a very basic bit of internet research..there ar hundreds of sites discussing these issues in detail.....I'm 100% sure that we have been told the day that Christ will gather his bride, ie Yom Teruah.....its only the exact date and hour that we cannot be sure of.
1) The relationship of the verse you quoted with the Jewish wedding feast, portrayed in the marriage of Christ and his bride......eg
"Once the Mohar was paid and the Ketubah was signed, there was a groom’s speech of promise. He would say, “I have to go, I’m going to prepare the Chuppah (bridal’s chamber), a place for you at my father’s house.” This tradition is kept even in our day. The groom went back to his father’s house to build an addition to the existing dwelling, where he would receive his wife in about one or two years. In modern Israel you can see many additions that have been made for this purpose. The bride would then say, “Do not go,” and the groom would respond, “It is better for you that I’ll go but I will come back.” “When?” she asked. And the groom would respond, “ I do not know, nor the servant, only my father knows the day”. 4
Meanwhile the bridegroom prepared the Chuppah, and the bride had to be ready. The groom sent a chaperone or servant to keep an eye on her, to insure that she would be cared for and watchful for the return of the groom. This alertness was manifested at night, because usually the bridegroom would show up at midnight. She had to have her oil lamp burning all the time. The bride also had other virgins helping and serving her; they were also anticipating the wedding.
With regards to the Chuppah, there is a parallel in the Scriptures.[indent]
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.” (John 14:1-4)[/indent][indent]
“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.” (Mark 13:32-37)[/indent]
2) The day and hour that no man knoweth...... is actually a direct allusion to the feast of Yom Teruah. If you study the feasts it becomes clear that this is the day that Christ will return for his bride, the dead will be raised etc. eg
"To begin to understand this enigmatic phrase, we need to understand that the calendar was controlled by the Sanhedrin, at the command of HaShem. The Great Court was commanded to sanctify the New Moons and to intercalate the year by adding an additional month seven out of nineteen years. This meant that the Sanhedrin was responsible for setting the date for each of the festivals. HaShem commanded, for example, that Pesach occurs on the fifteenth day of the first month. However, the Sanhedrin determined when the first month began, thus they actually set the date for this first festival.
The Sanhedrin of Yehuda HaNasi actually sanctified all of the new moons until a greater court should arise. Thus, all of our new moons are currently set on a fixed calendar.
Originally, however, the New Moon was not fixed by astronomical calculations, but was solemnly proclaimed after witnesses had testified to the reappearance of the crescent of the moon. On the 30th of each month, the members of the Sanhedrin assembled in a courtyard in Jerusalem, named Beit Ya'azek, where they waited to receive the testimony of two reliable witnesses; they then sanctified the New Moon based on their calculations and the testimony of these two witnesses. If the moon's crescent was not seen on the 30th day, the New Moon was automatically celebrated on the 31st day (which was the first day of the next month).
Normally we know several days in advance, the date of the next festival. However, there is one festival which actually falls on the new moon. The only festival that falls on a new moon is Rosh HaShanah, AKA Yom Teruah.[1]
Yom Teruah, therefore, is the festival that, "No one knows the day or hour that it starts, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father". Until the Sanhedrin sanctifies the New Moon of the seventh month, no one know when Yom Teruah will begin."
The issue is therefore to try and figure which Yom Teruah will incorporatte the resurrection......and I think 2033 is most probable (though 2015 looks interesting too lol)..... unless of course the time periods laid down in the bible are totally meaningless.
Anyway, a couple of points brought out through a very basic bit of internet research..there ar hundreds of sites discussing these issues in detail.....I'm 100% sure that we have been told the day that Christ will gather his bride, ie Yom Teruah.....its only the exact date and hour that we cannot be sure of.
1) The relationship of the verse you quoted with the Jewish wedding feast, portrayed in the marriage of Christ and his bride......eg
"Once the Mohar was paid and the Ketubah was signed, there was a groom’s speech of promise. He would say, “I have to go, I’m going to prepare the Chuppah (bridal’s chamber), a place for you at my father’s house.” This tradition is kept even in our day. The groom went back to his father’s house to build an addition to the existing dwelling, where he would receive his wife in about one or two years. In modern Israel you can see many additions that have been made for this purpose. The bride would then say, “Do not go,” and the groom would respond, “It is better for you that I’ll go but I will come back.” “When?” she asked. And the groom would respond, “ I do not know, nor the servant, only my father knows the day”. 4
Meanwhile the bridegroom prepared the Chuppah, and the bride had to be ready. The groom sent a chaperone or servant to keep an eye on her, to insure that she would be cared for and watchful for the return of the groom. This alertness was manifested at night, because usually the bridegroom would show up at midnight. She had to have her oil lamp burning all the time. The bride also had other virgins helping and serving her; they were also anticipating the wedding.
With regards to the Chuppah, there is a parallel in the Scriptures.[indent]
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.” (John 14:1-4)[/indent][indent]
“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.” (Mark 13:32-37)[/indent]
2) The day and hour that no man knoweth...... is actually a direct allusion to the feast of Yom Teruah. If you study the feasts it becomes clear that this is the day that Christ will return for his bride, the dead will be raised etc. eg
"To begin to understand this enigmatic phrase, we need to understand that the calendar was controlled by the Sanhedrin, at the command of HaShem. The Great Court was commanded to sanctify the New Moons and to intercalate the year by adding an additional month seven out of nineteen years. This meant that the Sanhedrin was responsible for setting the date for each of the festivals. HaShem commanded, for example, that Pesach occurs on the fifteenth day of the first month. However, the Sanhedrin determined when the first month began, thus they actually set the date for this first festival.
The Sanhedrin of Yehuda HaNasi actually sanctified all of the new moons until a greater court should arise. Thus, all of our new moons are currently set on a fixed calendar.
Originally, however, the New Moon was not fixed by astronomical calculations, but was solemnly proclaimed after witnesses had testified to the reappearance of the crescent of the moon. On the 30th of each month, the members of the Sanhedrin assembled in a courtyard in Jerusalem, named Beit Ya'azek, where they waited to receive the testimony of two reliable witnesses; they then sanctified the New Moon based on their calculations and the testimony of these two witnesses. If the moon's crescent was not seen on the 30th day, the New Moon was automatically celebrated on the 31st day (which was the first day of the next month).
Normally we know several days in advance, the date of the next festival. However, there is one festival which actually falls on the new moon. The only festival that falls on a new moon is Rosh HaShanah, AKA Yom Teruah.[1]
Yom Teruah, therefore, is the festival that, "No one knows the day or hour that it starts, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father". Until the Sanhedrin sanctifies the New Moon of the seventh month, no one know when Yom Teruah will begin."
The issue is therefore to try and figure which Yom Teruah will incorporatte the resurrection......and I think 2033 is most probable (though 2015 looks interesting too lol)..... unless of course the time periods laid down in the bible are totally meaningless.
Edited by buckerss, 07 April 2012 - 10:56 AM.
#9
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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:57 PM
That's all great, but the context of that passage is the return of Christ, not the feasts.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
#10
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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:57 AM
But the whole point is the 2 are synonomous! Yom Teruah is a direct representation of the return of Christ, and the resurrection will happen on that day in exactly the same way that passover was fulfiled on passover, firstfruits on firstfruits, pentecost on pentecost etc. Jesus knew this and understood it perfectly, hence the language he used when talking about the resurrection.
#11
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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:20 PM
Jesus said he didn't know the day when he was coming back.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
#12
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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:56 PM
Were going round in circles here, I guess you just cant see it. But if youre going to insist on taking a passage literally that obviously has a different meaning when you take into consideration the culture and idioms of the time then I would suggest you should take all scripture in that way. Welcome to the world of demons and Old Nick! lol
Edited by buckerss, 08 April 2012 - 06:05 PM.
#13
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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:02 PM
I'm looking at the context, which is the return of Christ. If Christ was using a cultural idiom, then I would expect the context to support it. Context takes precedence over word study, every time.
But I'm not massively fussed about it. If you believe there is something here, I don't have a problem. Happy to leave it here.
But I'm not massively fussed about it. If you believe there is something here, I don't have a problem. Happy to leave it here.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
#14
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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:56 PM
The textual context is the return of the Christ which Jesus was portraying in the cultural context and use of idioms in use at the time he was speaking. He was fully aware of the feasts and their meaning in relation to God's plan of salvation. That is nothing new to scripture, its just that sometimes we accept that fact when it suits us but ignore it on occasions when it doesnt. Whether we ignore it or not, I am convinced that was the teaching that Jesus was giving, and as "watchmen" we should be taking it on board. When you've got a minute do listen to Biltz' talks on the feasts, or perhaps you may find a book such as "The feasts of the Lord" by Howard and Rosenthal to be most eye opening.
Edited by buckerss, 08 April 2012 - 07:06 PM.
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