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Hebrews 7:3


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#31 Chrlsp

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 05:42 PM

Jesus had not yet been glorified when he spoke with Moses and Elijah. His glorification, by which he would be seen in glory, came after his resurrection from the dead.(John 12:23)

This is the same type of glory in which Moses and Elijah appeared. The glory of an immortal body.

Edited by Chrlsp, 01 September 2011 - 05:43 PM.


#32 nsr

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 05:47 PM

But Jesus appeared in that same glory during the transfiguration when he didn't have an immortal body.

Really, you're trying too hard to prove something that Scripture just doesn't say.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#33 Chrlsp

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 06:32 PM

But Jesus appeared in that same glory during the transfiguration when he didn't have an immortal body.

Really, you're trying too hard to prove something that Scripture just doesn't say.


Okay smart guy, where does Scripture say that Jesus had the same glory? It says the complete opposite but you fail to hear although you have ears. Are you trying to tell me that the glory Jesus had when he spoke with Moses and Elijah was the same glory he had after his resurrection? Come on now, man!

Moses and Elijah appeared IN GLORY. In the glorious body we are promised. The same glorious body Christ was risen in. Read the Scripture sir, and you may discover that it repeats the fact that Jesus was not yet glorified until, and at the time of his resurrection from the dead.

Over and out. Thanks for the discussion, it helps to reiterate the truth.

#34 nsr

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:44 PM

Okay smart guy, where does Scripture say that Jesus had the same glory? It says the complete opposite but you fail to hear although you have ears. Are you trying to tell me that the glory Jesus had when he spoke with Moses and Elijah was the same glory he had after his resurrection? Come on now, man!

Moses and Elijah appeared IN GLORY. In the glorious body we are promised. The same glorious body Christ was risen in. Read the Scripture sir, and you may discover that it repeats the fact that Jesus was not yet glorified until, and at the time of his resurrection from the dead.

Over and out. Thanks for the discussion, it helps to reiterate the truth.


I meant he had the same glory as Moses and Elijah during the transfiguration, and since he was later going to die, there was no restriction on a mortal man bearing that kind of glory. I'm not trying to prove anything in particular, just showing that your assertion doesn't stand up logically.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#35 Chrlsp

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:33 PM

I say this and end there.

You keep on saying "Scripture doesn't say that" but yet you claim that Moses and Elijah died twice, something Scripture does not say. So, why don't you just say something like: "I think Moses and Elijah died twice".

And I'll say: "Moses and Elijah appeared in glory"

And you can say that Melchisedec father and mother are not recorded in Scripture which means he has none.

And I'll say Melchisedec has no father and mother because no one born of the Spirit has a father and mother.

How is Melchisedec greater than Abraham?

I always run into characters such as yourself who make certain claims but refuse to answer questions about them. I've answered your questions try answering mine.

#36 nsr

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:51 PM

So, why don't you just say something like: "I think Moses and Elijah died twice".

Because I don't think that. I said that's one possibility. I don't have any strong opinions on what happened at the transfiguration. We're not told. What you are suggesting is impossible, however.

And you can say that Melchisedec father and mother are not recorded in Scripture which means he has none.

I didn't say he had no mother or father. I said the point is that it doesn't matter who his mother and father were.

I think you need to read my posts more carefully as you appear to be misunderstanding me.

How is Melchisedec greater than Abraham?

I don't think we're told explicitly, but I imagine because Abraham recognised him as a priest of God, somebody who was closer to God than he was. He did effectively pay him a tithe.

I always run into characters such as yourself who make certain claims but refuse to answer questions about them. I've answered your questions try answering mine.

I don't think I've left anything unanswered. I do think I've corrected you on a few things. If you want to end the discussion here, I have no objections.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#37 Jesse2W

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 12:10 AM

What was the point of the transfiguration? I think it was merely a vision where Elijah and Moses were not raised from the dead, but appeared to show Peter, James, and John that Jesus was pre-eminent over Moses and Elijah.

#38 Chrlsp

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 12:40 AM

Okay, now you don't think Moses and Elijah died twice but you say it's impossible that they appeared in an immortal body. Well if they had not immortal bodies then they must have died twice.

So what are other options?

Was it the ghosts of those men?
Was it all just a dream?
What?

You said it was possible that Paul says Melchisedec had no father and mother because the Scripture doesn't mention them.

I said ridiculous. That is way out of context and I gave good explaination, in context, to draw the comparison Paul makes.

How does being a priest make Melchisedec greater than Abraham? You think Melchisedec was closer to God than Abraham. Abraham the friend of God? Are we speaking of the same Abraham?

I've shown good Biblical reason why we are told that Melchisedec is said to be greater than Abraham.

It seems your sticking point, and it would lead to another topic, is why you think it impossible Moses and Elijah should have been made immortal before Christ.

Edited by Chrlsp, 02 September 2011 - 12:45 AM.


#39 Mark Taunton

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 06:19 AM

Chrlsp, have you considered Jesse's proposal for the transfiguration, that it was a vision, something they saw but which wasn't fully real? In my view, that makes a lot of sense, and also lines up with what Jesus said to Peter, James and John afterwards:

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Matt 17:9)

Remember also that in every gospel record of the transfiguration, it occurs just after Jesus has said that some of those standing by him would not taste of death till they had seen the kingdom of God come with power. (That must be referring to a vision of the kingdom and not the kingdom itself, because Jesus' disciples certainly won't taste of death after the kingdom comes, they will be raised from the dead when it comes, never to die again.)

When the kingdom does come, all the prophets (including Moses and Elijah) will be there, openly seen, with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom. Speaking to his enemies, Jesus said:

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. (Luke 13:28)

For Peter, James and John to see Moses and Elijah with Jesus, all glorious, on the mountain, was a foretaste, a preview in part, of what will occur in the future when Jesus returns and establishes the kingdom of God. Peter in his second letter confirms this understanding:

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
(2 Pet 1:16-18)

And it's not the only time that faithful men have seen Christ's glory, before he was raised from the dead. John tells us that the prophet Isaiah, who lived around 700 years before Christ, saw Jesus' glory:

But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
(John 12:37-41)

And of necessity, since Jesus had not yet been born, what Isaiah saw definitely was a vision, it cannot have been real then and there. We can read of it in Isaiah 6:1-10.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 02 September 2011 - 07:21 AM.


#40 Mark Taunton

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 06:41 AM

You said it was possible that Paul says Melchisedec had no father and mother because the Scripture doesn't mention them.

There's someone else who is said in scripture to "have no father or mother", but who was definitely still a mortal person at the time:

And {Mordechai} brought up Hadassah, that is, Esther, his uncle's daughter: for she had neither father nor mother, and the maid was fair and beautiful; whom Mordecai, when her father and mother were dead, took for his own daughter. (Est 2:7)

And the meaning of that is explained directly in the context. My point is this: the fact that such a description is used of Esther, a mortal person, shows that it doesn't have to be understood in the way you propose for it in relation to Melchizedek in Heb 7:3. (In fact I believe there is a strong typological link between Esther and Melchizedek, which includes this aspect they share, but that's not something I will develop now.)

#41 nsr

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 07:51 AM

Okay, now you don't think Moses and Elijah died twice but you say it's impossible that they appeared in an immortal body. Well if they had not immortal bodies then they must have died twice.

So what are other options?

Was it the ghosts of those men?
Was it all just a dream?
What?

I don't know. I've never looked into it.

You said it was possible that Paul says Melchisedec had no father and mother because the Scripture doesn't mention them.

I said ridiculous. That is way out of context and I gave good explaination, in context, to draw the comparison Paul makes.

The point of the passage isn't a description of Melchizedek's origins. The point of the passage is that his origins weren't relevant to his priesthood.

How does being a priest make Melchisedec greater than Abraham? You think Melchisedec was closer to God than Abraham. Abraham the friend of God? Are we speaking of the same Abraham?

Well, Abraham obviously thought so. That's a far more plausible explanation than trying to make Melchizedek into some kind of superman.

It seems your sticking point, and it would lead to another topic, is why you think it impossible Moses and Elijah should have been made immortal before Christ.

If they were sinners, which they were, then they couldn't be. Christ was the firstborn from the dead, remember?

I thought you had decided to end this discussion, anyway?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#42 Chrlsp

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 01:41 PM

Chrlsp, have you considered Jesse's proposal for the transfiguration, that it was a vision, something they saw but which wasn't fully real? In my view, that makes a lot of sense, and also lines up with what Jesus said to Peter, James and John afterwards:

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Matt 17:9)

Remember also that in every gospel record of the transfiguration, it occurs just after Jesus has said that some of those standing by him would not taste of death till they had seen the kingdom of God come with power. (That must be referring to a vision of the kingdom and not the kingdom itself, because Jesus' disciples certainly won't taste of death after the kingdom comes, they will be raised from the dead when it comes, never to die again.)

When the kingdom does come, all the prophets (including Moses and Elijah) will be there, openly seen, with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom. Speaking to his enemies, Jesus said:

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. (Luke 13:28)

For Peter, James and John to see Moses and Elijah with Jesus, all glorious, on the mountain, was a foretaste, a preview in part, of what will occur in the future when Jesus returns and establishes the kingdom of God. Peter in his second letter confirms this understanding:

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
(2 Pet 1:16-18)

And it's not the only time that faithful men have seen Christ's glory, before he was raised from the dead. John tells us that the prophet Isaiah, who lived around 700 years before Christ, saw Jesus' glory:

But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
(John 12:37-41)

And of necessity, since Jesus had not yet been born, what Isaiah saw definitely was a vision, it cannot have been real then and there. We can read of it in Isaiah 6:1-10.


If it was a vision of the future kingdom of God in the sense that it was not something that was actually taking place at that moment why are Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus about something he had not yet accomplished? In other words, they were talking with Jesus of something he was about to do, namely his decease at Jerusalem.

It seems to me that if it were a prophetic vision (and not something really taking place at that moment) they would have been speaking of Jesus' decease as something he already accomplshed and not something he was about to accomplish.

What those men were seeing was a vision of the kingdom of God, in miniture exhibition, of what it will be. That is why Jesus said "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." Those men were alive and seeing an exihbition of the Kingdom of God. They were seeing actual men who have died speaking with Jesus. An example of the Kingdom and how it will be after the resurrection of the dead. Elijah, an example of those who will be translated, and Moses, an example of those who will be raised from the dead.

Peter said they were an eyewitness of Jesus' majesty, speaking of the vision. Peter testified as being an eyewitness. How can Peter testify as being an eyewitness of something that has not yet taken place?

Edited by Chrlsp, 02 September 2011 - 01:54 PM.


#43 nsr

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 09:07 PM

Chrlsp,

Please accept my apologies. I've accidentally deleted your latest post while trying to reply to it. I hope you can remember what you had written - if not, let me know and I will try to retrieve it if possible.

Once again, my apologies for this mistake.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#44 Mark Taunton

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 09:11 PM

Chrlsp,

Please accept my apologies. I've accidentally deleted your latest post while trying to reply to it. I hope you can remember what you had written - if not, let me know and I will try to retrieve it if possible.

Once again, my apologies for this mistake.

I happen to still have the text in an old window! Here it is:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

In order for a man to see the kingdom of God he must be born again. He must be born of the Spirit and be spirit himself otherwise the kingdom of God cannot be seen. To be born of the Spirit a man must either be translated or raised from the dead.

Before the transfiguration Jesus says:

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till (before; NET BIBLE) they see the kingdom of God."(Luke 9:27)

I understand that to mean that some standing there would see the kingdom of God before they die.

What this tells me is that those men were granted special exception and did see the kingdom of God, without tasting death, by example of Jesus, Elijah and Moses. Why does Jesus make that point if what those men were seeing was not real but just a prophetic vision?



#45 nsr

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 09:18 PM

Big thanks to Mark! :)
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#46 Chrlsp

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 09:48 PM

cut

Edited by Chrlsp, 03 September 2011 - 09:52 PM.





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