My Church is going to talk about the rapture and Antichrist tomorrow so where can I find a well laid out defense against the teaching so I can ask some good questions?
What are the possible starting and ending dates for the harlot beast's rule? I've heard 538-1798 and 606-1866 (that date works better for Christadelphians, haha)
I've read the Wrested Scripture thing, but I'm still confused. What would be cool is a bullet point list of all the problems with a seven year period of time.
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26 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 16 August 2011 - 08:08 AM
Click here for a Bible class I wrote on antichrist.
I don't have anything on the rapture - but you can ask them where they find it in Scripture, because I can't find it.
I don't have anything on the rapture - but you can ask them where they find it in Scripture, because I can't find it.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
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Upsilon
Posted 16 August 2011 - 01:47 PM
I wrote an article on the rapture on another forum. With my apologies to management, here's the link.
Matt Smith
Arizona Christadelphians
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Arizona Christadelphians
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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Lambda
Posted 18 August 2011 - 10:39 PM
Thanks, but what about the 7 years? What does the 5 months, 1260 days, time times and half a time mean and what is it applied to?
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Posted 18 August 2011 - 11:10 PM
I don't have an answer on the time periods, I'm afraid. I'm not convinced of the day-for-a-year idea as a general principle, but I confess I don't really have anything better to offer.
42 months / 1260 days / time, times and half a time are all different ways of describing 3 1/2 years, which is the amount of time there was drought in Israel in the time of Elijah and Ahab. That's the best Bible echo I can think of - perhaps these time periods in prophecy represent times of spiritual drought in spiritual Israel (i.e. a time when the word of God is not widely read or known).
42 months / 1260 days / time, times and half a time are all different ways of describing 3 1/2 years, which is the amount of time there was drought in Israel in the time of Elijah and Ahab. That's the best Bible echo I can think of - perhaps these time periods in prophecy represent times of spiritual drought in spiritual Israel (i.e. a time when the word of God is not widely read or known).
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
#6
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Xi
Posted 19 August 2011 - 02:59 PM
Jesse2W, on 18 August 2011 - 10:39 PM, said:
Thanks, but what about the 7 years? What does the 5 months, 1260 days, time times and half a time mean and what is it applied to?
First, there is no 7 year period, there are 2 3.5 month periods. The assumption that is made is that they are sequential, challenge that assumption.
You also may wish to start with Rev. 1:1. It tells you how to interpret Revelation. These events will start to happen immediately. Second, the prophecy is meant to be understood by his servants.
The other principle to apply is that prophecy is for believers, not unbelievers (1 Cor 14:22). If they believe in a pre-trib rapture, then why would Jesus relay this prophecy that would be fulfilled only in the sight of unbelievers.
The next opportunity might be if they relate the woman in Rev 12 to Mary and the child to Jesus (one of the 3.5 year periods). Ask them if the behavior of the child is consistent with Jesus and the behavior is consistent with the behavior of Mary. Prepare a list of questions along those lines.
The important things are always simple; the simple are always hard.
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Posted 21 August 2011 - 05:54 AM
Thanks Steven! And you meant 3.5 year period - not month =P
nsr, I personally buy into the day for a year and a beast is a kingdom as a principle to use for interpretation even though neither principal is mentioned in Revelation.
nsr, I personally buy into the day for a year and a beast is a kingdom as a principle to use for interpretation even though neither principal is mentioned in Revelation.
#8
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Lambda
Posted 23 August 2011 - 06:30 AM
Wrested Scriptures says the 1260 years are fulfilled in the years between 606-1866, but that seems deceitful.
p = prophetic
1 p-year = 12 p-months
1 p-month = 30 p-days
1 p-day represents 360 days (a Jewish year)
3.5 p-years = 42 p-months = 1260 p-days
1260 p-days * 360 days = 453600 days = 1242.74 years of 365 days
When did history switch from 360 day years to 365 day years?
A lot of people seem to mess this up (including SDA) and use 365 day years when calculating the time duration.
Am I missing something?
When is this time period in history?
How does the Papacy fit into Revelation?
I think the answer is within the framework of using "Lateinos" as what John meant by "666."
p = prophetic
1 p-year = 12 p-months
1 p-month = 30 p-days
1 p-day represents 360 days (a Jewish year)
3.5 p-years = 42 p-months = 1260 p-days
1260 p-days * 360 days = 453600 days = 1242.74 years of 365 days
When did history switch from 360 day years to 365 day years?
A lot of people seem to mess this up (including SDA) and use 365 day years when calculating the time duration.
Am I missing something?
When is this time period in history?
How does the Papacy fit into Revelation?
I think the answer is within the framework of using "Lateinos" as what John meant by "666."
Edited by Jesse2W, 23 August 2011 - 06:35 AM.
#9
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Posted 23 August 2011 - 07:54 AM
I can't remember the exact details, but the 360-day year cycle eventually has to add an extra month to one year every so often to keep up with the 365.25-day year cycle, so I don't think there is an issue there. I asked that on here some time ago because that always used to concern me as well.
There are various different suggestions for a 1260-year period in history which is in some way relevant to the events described in Revelation. I'm not convinced by any of them, because the historical claims that expositors make are very hard to verify from secular history sources.
And don't even get me started on the 391 years and 1 month supposedly being the timespan of the sixth trumpet!
There are various different suggestions for a 1260-year period in history which is in some way relevant to the events described in Revelation. I'm not convinced by any of them, because the historical claims that expositors make are very hard to verify from secular history sources.
And don't even get me started on the 391 years and 1 month supposedly being the timespan of the sixth trumpet!
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
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Posted 23 August 2011 - 07:04 PM
Quote
Thanks, but what about the 7 years? What does the 5 months, 1260 days, time times and half a time mean and what is it applied to?
It represents the dark ages, the papal persecution of the true unseen Church in the wilderness.
"and will smite every HORSE OF THE PEOPLE with blindness"
Read more: http://wiki.answers....e#ixzz1K0LLUt00
Read more: http://wiki.answers....e#ixzz1K0LLUt00
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Posted 23 August 2011 - 07:20 PM
Mercia2, on 23 August 2011 - 07:04 PM, said:
Quote
Thanks, but what about the 7 years? What does the 5 months, 1260 days, time times and half a time mean and what is it applied to?
It represents the dark ages, the papal persecution of the true unseen Church in the wilderness.
If it can't be proven, then it can't and shouldn't be believed. How do I know that after I ask for the Holy Spirit God says no and I think He said yes so I come up with whatever my subconscious wants and I believe it because I'm convinced I have the Holy Spirit? I believed I had the Holy Spirit when I was a trinitarian, but if I was basing my belief on experience, then I never would have questioned my beliefs.
And I already thought it meant that, but the exact years are important to me. Also could you or someone explain the difficulty of the day for a year principal with Rev. 11:11?
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Posted 23 August 2011 - 08:12 PM
Mercia2, on 23 August 2011 - 07:04 PM, said:
Quote
Thanks, but what about the 7 years? What does the 5 months, 1260 days, time times and half a time mean and what is it applied to?
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
#13
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Posted 23 August 2011 - 10:43 PM
Mercia, we have in scripture a direct record of people asking for the holy spirit in fulfilment of Jesus' promise, and it being given them. But it does not correspond to your idea of such an event.
In particular, Acts 1:6-8 records Jesus' promise to the eleven remaining apostles (Judas being dead), that the holy spirit would come upon them, to enable them to give powerful witness to him throughout the world of their time. This was not a general promise to anyone & everyone, but to those 11 specifically, for that reason. Then in Acts 1:12-13, we read of those same apostles continuing in prayer and supplication, directly fulfilling the instruction Jesus gave them in Luke 11:9-13, to ask for the holy spirit. Finally, in Acts 2:1-5, we see the holy spirit being given them, in that they were miraculously enabled to speak in the various languages of all the Jews of the diaspora who had come to Jerusalem for the feast of Pentecost; those Jews acknowledged and were amazed by this miracle (Acts 2:6-12).
By God's abundant blessing, in fact the holy spirit evidently came on the other early disciples also, not just the 11 apostles, and indeed Peter tells his hearers that they, their children, and those afar off, were promised that gift also if they repented, responding in faith to the gospel he and the apostles preached (Acts 2:38-39). But the apostles were the primary recipients, in that they were the ones who, besides speaking in foreign languages, were able to perform signs and wonders (Acts 2:43). And this was done in order to convince men, proving the authority of the words which they spoke.
The holy spirit was never given merely as a private benefit to the individual recipient alone, as you commonly claim. It was given for purpose of witnessing to and establishing God's revealed word of truth, to the benefit of both the recipient and other people equally, who openly saw and heard the effect of the spirit gift. This is clear from Acts 2:33, amongst other scriptures.
Mercia, please, take the time to study this section of scripture. It is showing exactly what God means when he speaks in his word about his giving of the holy spirit to men. The holy spirit was not promised to everyone who believes, for ever after Jesus came (though all God's people will be raised from death, immortalised, and empowered by his holy spirit in the age to come, in the kingdom Christ will establish on his return: see Heb 6:4-6). It was promised to particular people in the past, and was given at particular times, for particular purposes.
With respect to those who believed the preaching of Jesus and the apostles, that purpose of the holy spirit gifts is made clear, for example in Eph 4:7-16 - it is to perfect the body of Christ, comprised of his saints, God's holy people. But as we now have the whole word of God word for this present age in the completed holy scriptures, which are able to achieve that same perfecting of the man of God (2 Tim 3:16-17), there is no longer a need for the holy spirit gifts as they were needed in the first century. The gifts of the holy spirit served that purpose for believers until the Bible itself was completed. That is not to say that the holy spirit is now absent - it is not. Rather, the holy spirit is still speaking today, with just the same authority and power as it ever did; see Heb 3:7-11 - a 2,000 year-old quotation of a 3,000 year-old psalm, but introduced using the present tense "the holy spirit says", and as true and applicable to us today as it ever was. For us, the holy spirit is still speaking, in those now-complete, spirit-filled scriptures. They alone, and not any thoughts we might think in our own hearts, are what we must truly give heed to, if we want to know and understand the will and purpose of God, so as to please him by faith, seeking to fulfil his will in our own lives.
In particular, Acts 1:6-8 records Jesus' promise to the eleven remaining apostles (Judas being dead), that the holy spirit would come upon them, to enable them to give powerful witness to him throughout the world of their time. This was not a general promise to anyone & everyone, but to those 11 specifically, for that reason. Then in Acts 1:12-13, we read of those same apostles continuing in prayer and supplication, directly fulfilling the instruction Jesus gave them in Luke 11:9-13, to ask for the holy spirit. Finally, in Acts 2:1-5, we see the holy spirit being given them, in that they were miraculously enabled to speak in the various languages of all the Jews of the diaspora who had come to Jerusalem for the feast of Pentecost; those Jews acknowledged and were amazed by this miracle (Acts 2:6-12).
By God's abundant blessing, in fact the holy spirit evidently came on the other early disciples also, not just the 11 apostles, and indeed Peter tells his hearers that they, their children, and those afar off, were promised that gift also if they repented, responding in faith to the gospel he and the apostles preached (Acts 2:38-39). But the apostles were the primary recipients, in that they were the ones who, besides speaking in foreign languages, were able to perform signs and wonders (Acts 2:43). And this was done in order to convince men, proving the authority of the words which they spoke.
The holy spirit was never given merely as a private benefit to the individual recipient alone, as you commonly claim. It was given for purpose of witnessing to and establishing God's revealed word of truth, to the benefit of both the recipient and other people equally, who openly saw and heard the effect of the spirit gift. This is clear from Acts 2:33, amongst other scriptures.
Mercia, please, take the time to study this section of scripture. It is showing exactly what God means when he speaks in his word about his giving of the holy spirit to men. The holy spirit was not promised to everyone who believes, for ever after Jesus came (though all God's people will be raised from death, immortalised, and empowered by his holy spirit in the age to come, in the kingdom Christ will establish on his return: see Heb 6:4-6). It was promised to particular people in the past, and was given at particular times, for particular purposes.
With respect to those who believed the preaching of Jesus and the apostles, that purpose of the holy spirit gifts is made clear, for example in Eph 4:7-16 - it is to perfect the body of Christ, comprised of his saints, God's holy people. But as we now have the whole word of God word for this present age in the completed holy scriptures, which are able to achieve that same perfecting of the man of God (2 Tim 3:16-17), there is no longer a need for the holy spirit gifts as they were needed in the first century. The gifts of the holy spirit served that purpose for believers until the Bible itself was completed. That is not to say that the holy spirit is now absent - it is not. Rather, the holy spirit is still speaking today, with just the same authority and power as it ever did; see Heb 3:7-11 - a 2,000 year-old quotation of a 3,000 year-old psalm, but introduced using the present tense "the holy spirit says", and as true and applicable to us today as it ever was. For us, the holy spirit is still speaking, in those now-complete, spirit-filled scriptures. They alone, and not any thoughts we might think in our own hearts, are what we must truly give heed to, if we want to know and understand the will and purpose of God, so as to please him by faith, seeking to fulfil his will in our own lives.
Edited by Mark Taunton, 23 August 2011 - 11:25 PM.
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Delta
Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:52 AM
Response to the OP:
Briefly .....
The period that you are investigating is still pending and it will consist of 1260 days + 1260 days + 30 days .... these days are defined in Daniel 8, 9 and 12, and Revelation 11, 12, and 13 .... the total time of the Lord's coming wrath and judgment against an unbelieving world will last for 2550 days .... 7 prophetic years [of 360 days each] + 30 days
If you want the rest of the details I can give them to you
Briefly .....
The period that you are investigating is still pending and it will consist of 1260 days + 1260 days + 30 days .... these days are defined in Daniel 8, 9 and 12, and Revelation 11, 12, and 13 .... the total time of the Lord's coming wrath and judgment against an unbelieving world will last for 2550 days .... 7 prophetic years [of 360 days each] + 30 days
If you want the rest of the details I can give them to you
2Peter
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
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Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:55 AM
Yes, I do! Are you a Christadelphian?
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Posted 29 September 2011 - 07:55 AM
From the content of his posts so far, no I don't think he is.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
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Delta
Posted 29 September 2011 - 10:46 AM
Jesse2W asked:
"Yes, I do! Are you a Christadelphian?"
I am a believer and follower of Jesus Christ and have no affiliation with any religious movement
Is there any particular thing that you want to know about this 7 year period of time foretold by the Bible prophets?
It is actually described as the beginning of the coming day of the Lord .... a 7 year period of time [the Jewish heptad] of one 7 of the 70 weeks of years decreed for Israel at the end of this present age
This time lapse amounts to 490 years [70 x 7] of 360 day prophetic years each .... the first 483 years have transpired ending at the Lord's cutting off [about 33 A.D.] .... there is a balance to finish which is still pending [1260 days + 1260 days] + [30 days]
The second 1260 days is also referred to as 42 months [30 day months], and times time and 1/2 time
The associated time values for this balance to finish are given in Daniel 8:13; 8:14; 8:26; 9;24-27; 12;6-11; and Revelation 11:2-3; 12:6; 12:14; 13:5]
You may also want to reference my response #70 to the OP: Identifying Antichrist
"Yes, I do! Are you a Christadelphian?"
I am a believer and follower of Jesus Christ and have no affiliation with any religious movement
Is there any particular thing that you want to know about this 7 year period of time foretold by the Bible prophets?
It is actually described as the beginning of the coming day of the Lord .... a 7 year period of time [the Jewish heptad] of one 7 of the 70 weeks of years decreed for Israel at the end of this present age
This time lapse amounts to 490 years [70 x 7] of 360 day prophetic years each .... the first 483 years have transpired ending at the Lord's cutting off [about 33 A.D.] .... there is a balance to finish which is still pending [1260 days + 1260 days] + [30 days]
The second 1260 days is also referred to as 42 months [30 day months], and times time and 1/2 time
The associated time values for this balance to finish are given in Daniel 8:13; 8:14; 8:26; 9;24-27; 12;6-11; and Revelation 11:2-3; 12:6; 12:14; 13:5]
You may also want to reference my response #70 to the OP: Identifying Antichrist
Edited by Linker, 29 September 2011 - 11:01 AM.
2Peter
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
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Lambda
Posted 29 September 2011 - 05:44 PM
Do you believe Jesus personally pre-existed his birth? Do you believe any of the characters in Revelation 20:10 are personal individuals? I'm completely unconvinced that the day for a year rule doesn't apply in Revelation and the 70th week is separated from the other 69 weeks. I thought you were a historicist. I know all about the type of dispensationalism where there will be a future world ruler that will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
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Delta
Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:48 AM
"Do you believe Jesus personally pre-existed his birth? Do you believe any of the characters in Revelation 20:10 are personal individuals? I'm completely unconvinced that the day for a year rule doesn't apply in Revelation and the 70th week is separated from the other 69 weeks. I thought you were a historicist. I know all about the type of dispensationalism where there will be a future world ruler that will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem."
>No question about Jesus existing before His human manifestation on the earth in the first century .... this is a biblical fact
>Satan, Abaddon, and the false prophet all fallen angels and real they are real personages
>The day for a year concept is primarily a foundational SDA ruse and there is no truth to it [William Miller's folly] .... the "days" are 24 hour days .... not years
>And the first 69 weeks of years have already transpired [33 A.D.] ..... the 70th is still pending .... there is nothing of events upon the earth recorded in the scope of the prophetic visions in this breach .... absolutely nothing
>And I am anything but one who uses the historical/allegorical method of interpretation of the scriptures [this is preterism]
>So tell me what you know about dispensationalism if you want
.... and by the way there will not be a "world ruler" who will rebuild any temple of the Lord's on the mount during the coming tribulation period [the temple of Satan's beast in the human little horn of Daniel's visions, is already on the mount today]
>So there will be no tribulation temple of the Lord's on the mount .... His temple will not be built until after, and will be present during His coming millennial kingdom on the earth
>What other questions might you have?
>No question about Jesus existing before His human manifestation on the earth in the first century .... this is a biblical fact
>Satan, Abaddon, and the false prophet all fallen angels and real they are real personages
>The day for a year concept is primarily a foundational SDA ruse and there is no truth to it [William Miller's folly] .... the "days" are 24 hour days .... not years
>And the first 69 weeks of years have already transpired [33 A.D.] ..... the 70th is still pending .... there is nothing of events upon the earth recorded in the scope of the prophetic visions in this breach .... absolutely nothing
>And I am anything but one who uses the historical/allegorical method of interpretation of the scriptures [this is preterism]
>So tell me what you know about dispensationalism if you want
.... and by the way there will not be a "world ruler" who will rebuild any temple of the Lord's on the mount during the coming tribulation period [the temple of Satan's beast in the human little horn of Daniel's visions, is already on the mount today]
>So there will be no tribulation temple of the Lord's on the mount .... His temple will not be built until after, and will be present during His coming millennial kingdom on the earth
>What other questions might you have?
Edited by Linker, 30 September 2011 - 12:55 AM.
2Peter
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
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Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:57 AM
Linker, on 30 September 2011 - 12:48 AM, said:
No question about Jesus existing before His human manifestation on the earth in the first century .... this is a biblical fact
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
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Lambda
Posted 30 September 2011 - 08:07 AM
It is not a fact. Jesus was begotten *in* Marry (Matthew 1:20) and for *that* reason (Luke 1:35) he is the only begotten son of God.
Jesus does not = the Word of God.
Jesus is the word of God.
The Bible is the word of God.
The Bible contains the word of God.
Jesus contains the word of God.
The Bible was not the word of God until it was written.
Jesus was not the word of God until he was begotten.
Jesus pre-existed as the word the same way a house pre-exists as a blueprint - not in actuality, but in plan.
God is the architect and his plan is divine and fully expressive of who he is.
Jusus contains divine attributes, but he himself is not Deity because there is only one true Deity - the Father who sent Jesus.
In John 8:58 Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah who existed in promise before Abraham was.
Like many other times Jesus spoke in a way to purposefully confuse the Jews who's hearts were unwilling to hear the truth.
If we deny that Jesus came in the flesh then we have the spirit of antichrist.
Separating the person of Jesus from his flesh is very similar to denying that he came in the flesh and is too close for comfort.
1 John 4:9 says the only begotten son was sent to the world and we established he was begotten in Marry.
Jesus did not exist personally until he was begotten in Marry where he became the son of God.
Jesus does not = the Word of God.
Jesus is the word of God.
The Bible is the word of God.
The Bible contains the word of God.
Jesus contains the word of God.
The Bible was not the word of God until it was written.
Jesus was not the word of God until he was begotten.
Jesus pre-existed as the word the same way a house pre-exists as a blueprint - not in actuality, but in plan.
God is the architect and his plan is divine and fully expressive of who he is.
Jusus contains divine attributes, but he himself is not Deity because there is only one true Deity - the Father who sent Jesus.
In John 8:58 Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah who existed in promise before Abraham was.
Like many other times Jesus spoke in a way to purposefully confuse the Jews who's hearts were unwilling to hear the truth.
If we deny that Jesus came in the flesh then we have the spirit of antichrist.
Separating the person of Jesus from his flesh is very similar to denying that he came in the flesh and is too close for comfort.
1 John 4:9 says the only begotten son was sent to the world and we established he was begotten in Marry.
Jesus did not exist personally until he was begotten in Marry where he became the son of God.
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Posted 30 September 2011 - 10:59 AM
You should learn to stick to the subject of your original posting if you want others to have any interest in answering your questions Jesse2W
Unless you have more responses to the subject of the OP, I will consider my input finished at this time for you .... if others have questions I will respond, but only on the subject at hand
What you are doing is testing another subject of inquiry which really should be treated separately .... and I don't agree with you about Jesus Christ not pre-existing before 2000 years ago by the way, and never will
Evidence against your view:
John
8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
One thing you need to know:
I have no other objective than to convince others about the fact that the Bible is what it claims to be, and in order to do this I must leave no stone un-turned .... so one needs to be careful with forming precepts and doctrines that they cannot not fully support 100%
There are no contradictions or loose ends in scripture and if these things are not totally reconciled, then others will not believe you regarding the authenticity of the Word of God and therefore will not seek Jesus Christ for their own salvation
The interpretation and teaching of the prophetic scriptures is a daunting task and one called to do this must possess the knowledge and spiritual insight to successfully complete their mission .... this is not something that all are called to do
Unless you have more responses to the subject of the OP, I will consider my input finished at this time for you .... if others have questions I will respond, but only on the subject at hand
What you are doing is testing another subject of inquiry which really should be treated separately .... and I don't agree with you about Jesus Christ not pre-existing before 2000 years ago by the way, and never will
Evidence against your view:
John
8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
One thing you need to know:
I have no other objective than to convince others about the fact that the Bible is what it claims to be, and in order to do this I must leave no stone un-turned .... so one needs to be careful with forming precepts and doctrines that they cannot not fully support 100%
There are no contradictions or loose ends in scripture and if these things are not totally reconciled, then others will not believe you regarding the authenticity of the Word of God and therefore will not seek Jesus Christ for their own salvation
The interpretation and teaching of the prophetic scriptures is a daunting task and one called to do this must possess the knowledge and spiritual insight to successfully complete their mission .... this is not something that all are called to do
Edited by Linker, 30 September 2011 - 11:26 AM.
2Peter
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
#23
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Lambda
Posted 30 September 2011 - 02:50 PM
The reason I thought it was important to ask about your understanding of other parts of the Bible is because if you have an interpretation that claims the 3 characters in Revelation 20:10 are actually personal and Jesus personally existed before he was begotten, then that effects how you view the rest of the Bible. For example, I wouldn't take the interpretation of revelation from a modalist because I think that is the most uneducated position a person could take on this core teaching of the Bible.
John 8:42
Jesus then said to them, 'If God were your father, ye were loving me, for I came forth from God, and am come; for neither have I come of myself, but He sent me;
John 16:28
I came forth from the Father, and have come to the world; again I leave the world, and go on unto the Father.'
John 8:42
Jesus then said to them, 'If God were your father, ye were loving me, for I came forth from God, and am come; for neither have I come of myself, but He sent me;
John 16:28
I came forth from the Father, and have come to the world; again I leave the world, and go on unto the Father.'
#24
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Delta
Posted 30 September 2011 - 09:28 PM
Well I am certainly glad you are "educated" son
But I will tell you this:
Jesus Christ is both God and human .... understanding this truth is an absolute .... anything else may lead one to a dead ended road
And Satan, Abaddon, and Satan's false prophet are all very real fallen angels who have existed since the beginning of creation, have rebelled against the Lord, and will be confined to and upon the earth in the open during the Lord's coming hour [time] of trial and judgment
.... if you do not discover this truth you will never understand the prophetic word regarding the Lord's coming visitation to judge this intransigent and unbelieving world .... and His use of Satan and Satan's triad in the process [2Thessalonians 2:2-12; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 12:12; 13:1-4; 13:11-16; 17:8-14; 17:16-18]
If you have been taught by teachers who relegate these real literal entities to allegory, you have been taken
But I will tell you this:
Jesus Christ is both God and human .... understanding this truth is an absolute .... anything else may lead one to a dead ended road
And Satan, Abaddon, and Satan's false prophet are all very real fallen angels who have existed since the beginning of creation, have rebelled against the Lord, and will be confined to and upon the earth in the open during the Lord's coming hour [time] of trial and judgment
.... if you do not discover this truth you will never understand the prophetic word regarding the Lord's coming visitation to judge this intransigent and unbelieving world .... and His use of Satan and Satan's triad in the process [2Thessalonians 2:2-12; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 12:12; 13:1-4; 13:11-16; 17:8-14; 17:16-18]
If you have been taught by teachers who relegate these real literal entities to allegory, you have been taken
Edited by Linker, 30 September 2011 - 09:32 PM.
2Peter
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
#25
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Order of the Golden Pedant 2nd Class
Posted 30 September 2011 - 09:52 PM
Linker, on 30 September 2011 - 09:28 PM, said:
Jesus Christ is both God and human .... understanding this truth is an absolute .... anything else may lead one to a dead ended road
Can you explain how you reach this conclusion please? To me that sounds like a total contradiction - it's impossible to be both God and human. One is immortal, the other mortal. One is incapable of sin, the other is capable of sin. One is immune to temptation, the other is subject to temptation. These are binary opposites which can't apply to the same individual at the same time.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)
#26
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Lambda
Posted 01 October 2011 - 12:08 AM
I didn't claim I was educated, but you don't have to be educated to submit to the truth of the Bible. I am curious about prophecy because I am not as educated as I'd like to be.
If they are personal entities, then they certainly aren't human because the all have more than one head! And the beasts in Daniel were kingdoms and they seem to parallel with the beasts in Revelation. Besides Revelation is a book of signs which means it is a sin to take it completely literally. Why do you believe God's Heavenly agents can fall? If they are Heavenly angels, then we know there can be no sin in Heaven - otherwise God's will is not done in Heaven.
The one passage that speaks of fallen angels is given as a sign to non-believers and is likely found in the Old Testament. Peter and Jude say there are people who slander celestial beings and they are talking about the Book of Enoch that claims angels came to earth and married. Furthermore, the wages of sin is death, but when God's people become resurrected they will be like the angels and can no longer die. If angels can't die, then they can't sin =)
Also, sin is finite in it's heinousness because the more knowledge we have of God the worse our judgement will be. If sin can become more heinous, then it is not infinite. The recompense must be equally as heinous to be just - so the recompense must be finite in duration, but eternal in it's effect to account for the infinite holiness of God. Eternal torment is therefore unjust unless a person knows God to an infinite degree that their sin would be infinitely heinous. Are you prepared to say fallen angels had a perfect knowledge of God and His holiness?
If they are personal entities, then they certainly aren't human because the all have more than one head! And the beasts in Daniel were kingdoms and they seem to parallel with the beasts in Revelation. Besides Revelation is a book of signs which means it is a sin to take it completely literally. Why do you believe God's Heavenly agents can fall? If they are Heavenly angels, then we know there can be no sin in Heaven - otherwise God's will is not done in Heaven.
The one passage that speaks of fallen angels is given as a sign to non-believers and is likely found in the Old Testament. Peter and Jude say there are people who slander celestial beings and they are talking about the Book of Enoch that claims angels came to earth and married. Furthermore, the wages of sin is death, but when God's people become resurrected they will be like the angels and can no longer die. If angels can't die, then they can't sin =)
Also, sin is finite in it's heinousness because the more knowledge we have of God the worse our judgement will be. If sin can become more heinous, then it is not infinite. The recompense must be equally as heinous to be just - so the recompense must be finite in duration, but eternal in it's effect to account for the infinite holiness of God. Eternal torment is therefore unjust unless a person knows God to an infinite degree that their sin would be infinitely heinous. Are you prepared to say fallen angels had a perfect knowledge of God and His holiness?
Edited by Jesse2W, 01 October 2011 - 12:09 AM.
#27
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Delta
Posted 01 October 2011 - 01:26 PM
I only tell what the scriptures give on Satan and 1/3 of the angels who rebelled with him against the Lord [Revelation 12:4; 12:7-12]
I would also suggest to you the following in regard to the prophetic scriptures:
One must understand the unseen world of angels and their characteristics and interactions with certain selected humans described in scripture .... if not, you will never grasp the full picture that is presented in the visions of the Bible prophets
There are both the angles of the Lord's [these are presented in Revelation [in conjunction with the judgments] in contrast with the angels who followed Satan in rebellion against the Lord [2Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6; Revelation 9:1-11; 9:14-19; 13:1-4; 13:11-18]
All of Satan's following are coming to the earth during the tribulation of the Lord's judgment [judgment of the great day]
The term "beast" is used in Daniel to describe human kingdoms and associated human king positions .... this term is used differently in Revelation's folding and is used to describe Abaddon and Satan's false prophet .... neither are human, both are fallen angles like Satan [the first beast is Abaddon .... Revelation 9:11] [the second beast, called the false prophet, will lead the cult of those who will worship Abaddon as a "god"]
Abbadon's "heads" are not literal heads, but his assigned human kingdoms and associated human king positions over which he rules for Satan .... there are 7 of them, all in the Middle East [Revelation 17:8-14; 13:1-4] .... Daniel's visions present all 7 of the same, but in sets [Daniel 2; 7] .... and the little horn is the human king who will be possessed by Abaddon at the time of the end of this pressent age .... this king will fill both of Abaddon's 6th and 7th human king positions associated with Abaddon's 6th and 7th "heads" [kingdoms]
.... the 6th smaller ["little" horn] [Daniel 8:9] .... and the 7th expanded and divided with 10 other human kings [Daniel 2:40-43; 7:7-25; Revelation 13:1-4; 17:8-18]
Five of Abaddon's assigned ancient human kingdoms [heads] have already fallen .... all before the first century, and the 6th and 7th are still pending and will emerge at the time of the end .... we can know the first 5 [neo-Babylon; Medo/Persian; Greater Persian; Alexander the Great's Asian holdings; Syrio/Babylonia] .... these are the 5 of historical record]
Daniel's visions in chapter 2 and 7 present all 7 of Abaddon's Middle Eastern kingdoms .... 5 fallen .... and 2 more yet to come
This beast of Revelation has since been in the abyss where he cannot interact with humanity after the fall of his 5th assigned kingdom
He will be released from the abyss by Satan [2Thessalonians 2:2-12; Revelation 9:1; 9:11] at the beginning of the future 70th week decreed for Israel and possess the human little horn of Daniel's visions .... this time frame is the same as the Lord's coming hour of trial and judgment [Psalms 2; Jeremiah 30; Daniel 9:24-27; Revelation 3:10; 6:12-17] .... Abaddon is the "other prince" that shall come]
This period of the Lord's judgment to punish the unbelieving earth dwellers will last for 2550 days [this calculation is of a different subject] .... and then the Lord will appear to those mortals who survive and He will rule the earth for 1000 years .... and beyond
I would also suggest to you the following in regard to the prophetic scriptures:
One must understand the unseen world of angels and their characteristics and interactions with certain selected humans described in scripture .... if not, you will never grasp the full picture that is presented in the visions of the Bible prophets
There are both the angles of the Lord's [these are presented in Revelation [in conjunction with the judgments] in contrast with the angels who followed Satan in rebellion against the Lord [2Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6; Revelation 9:1-11; 9:14-19; 13:1-4; 13:11-18]
All of Satan's following are coming to the earth during the tribulation of the Lord's judgment [judgment of the great day]
The term "beast" is used in Daniel to describe human kingdoms and associated human king positions .... this term is used differently in Revelation's folding and is used to describe Abaddon and Satan's false prophet .... neither are human, both are fallen angles like Satan [the first beast is Abaddon .... Revelation 9:11] [the second beast, called the false prophet, will lead the cult of those who will worship Abaddon as a "god"]
Abbadon's "heads" are not literal heads, but his assigned human kingdoms and associated human king positions over which he rules for Satan .... there are 7 of them, all in the Middle East [Revelation 17:8-14; 13:1-4] .... Daniel's visions present all 7 of the same, but in sets [Daniel 2; 7] .... and the little horn is the human king who will be possessed by Abaddon at the time of the end of this pressent age .... this king will fill both of Abaddon's 6th and 7th human king positions associated with Abaddon's 6th and 7th "heads" [kingdoms]
.... the 6th smaller ["little" horn] [Daniel 8:9] .... and the 7th expanded and divided with 10 other human kings [Daniel 2:40-43; 7:7-25; Revelation 13:1-4; 17:8-18]
Five of Abaddon's assigned ancient human kingdoms [heads] have already fallen .... all before the first century, and the 6th and 7th are still pending and will emerge at the time of the end .... we can know the first 5 [neo-Babylon; Medo/Persian; Greater Persian; Alexander the Great's Asian holdings; Syrio/Babylonia] .... these are the 5 of historical record]
Daniel's visions in chapter 2 and 7 present all 7 of Abaddon's Middle Eastern kingdoms .... 5 fallen .... and 2 more yet to come
This beast of Revelation has since been in the abyss where he cannot interact with humanity after the fall of his 5th assigned kingdom
He will be released from the abyss by Satan [2Thessalonians 2:2-12; Revelation 9:1; 9:11] at the beginning of the future 70th week decreed for Israel and possess the human little horn of Daniel's visions .... this time frame is the same as the Lord's coming hour of trial and judgment [Psalms 2; Jeremiah 30; Daniel 9:24-27; Revelation 3:10; 6:12-17] .... Abaddon is the "other prince" that shall come]
This period of the Lord's judgment to punish the unbelieving earth dwellers will last for 2550 days [this calculation is of a different subject] .... and then the Lord will appear to those mortals who survive and He will rule the earth for 1000 years .... and beyond
Edited by Linker, 01 October 2011 - 01:32 PM.
2Peter
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
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