8 replies to this topic

[Jesse2W]

Is there a good study on where in the Bible the doctrine of celestial heavenly beings is taught? Angels simply means messengers so where is the concept of celestial beings taught? When Jesus was being tempted in the desert and then "angels came and ministered to him" why are these interpreted as celestial beings (at least that what I thought) if "angel" merely implies messenger? Couldn't it be anybody who felt God move them to minister to Jesus at that time?
The existence of celestial beings is essential if we are to believe Jesus did not preexist his birth.

[Matt Smith]

Jesse2W, on 02 August 2011 - 06:14 AM, said:

Is there a good study on where in the Bible the doctrine of celestial heavenly beings is taught? Angels simply means messengers so where is the concept of celestial beings taught? When Jesus was being tempted in the desert and then "angels came and ministered to him" why are these interpreted as celestial beings (at least that what I thought) if "angel" merely implies messenger? Couldn't it be anybody who felt God move them to minister to Jesus at that time?
The existence of celestial beings is essential if we are to believe Jesus did not preexist his birth.

Here is a brief outline of Bible teaching on angels for you.

As to why we believe it was angels (celestial beings) in the temptation in the wilderness is because it seems to be directly related to a specific temptation (Matthew 4:6).

If you wish, there is a series of audio talks given by Ron Cowie on the subject of angels, which I quite enjoyed.

[Jesse2W]

Matt Smith, on 02 August 2011 - 01:06 PM, said:

Here is a brief outline of Bible teaching on angels for you.

I read this and it produced more questions, who knew? How can celestial beings influence us if we don't talk to them - can they influence our thoughts? How? What happens to them when they disappear? This article called them 'Divine angels' - are the saints going to be 'Divine' like the angels?

Also - if God sends a thought or mindset to us (not a person), then could that mindset be called a messenger that ministers to us? If God manifests his presence in an image object like a pillar of fire or a hand writing on a wall, then couldn't that inanimate (non-personal or celestial being) object be called an agent/messenger/sent one even though it is not a celestial being/person?

[Matt Smith]

Jesse2W, on 02 August 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:

Matt Smith, on 02 August 2011 - 01:06 PM, said:

Here is a brief outline of Bible teaching on angels for you.

I read this and it produced more questions, who knew? How can celestial beings influence us if we don't talk to them - can they influence our thoughts?

Through the experiences and events of a person's life.

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How? What happens to them when they disappear?

Do they disappear or do the humans observing them just not see them anymore? (2 Kings 6:8-17)

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This article called them 'Divine angels' - are the saints going to be 'Divine' like the angels?

1 Peter 1:1-4

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Also - if God sends a thought or mindset to us (not a person), then could that mindset be called a messenger that ministers to us?

God doesn't interfere with our free will, but rather gives us choices (see Deuteronomy 30:15-20; Joshua 24:14-15; 1 Kings 18:21)

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If God manifests his presence in an image object like a pillar of fire or a hand writing on a wall, then couldn't that inanimate (non-personal or celestial being) object be called an agent/messenger/sent one even though it is not a celestial being/person?

No. The pillar of fire/cloud was a creation of God used to direct the children of Israel through the wilderness, though there was an angel present (Exodus 23:20-23), who is described as going before them.

Your other example is not an inanimate object, but rather the only thing the people could see. With the multiple references to angels in the book of Daniel, this too was most likely an angel.

[Jesse2W]

Matt Smith said:

Do they disappear or do the humans observing them just not see them anymore? (2 Kings 6:8-17)

That pamphlet said they disappeared, but the real issue I was getting at is can you still touch them when they are invisible or are they gone from all our five senses?

Matt Smith said:

God doesn't interfere with our free will, but rather gives us choices (see Deuteronomy 30:15-20; Joshua 24:14-15; 1 Kings 18:21)

What's the difference? The only possible way God can interfere with our free will is make us do something we don't want to and most the stuff we like to do is dependent upon what God has already done. Proverbs 21:1 "The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will." It's idiotic to believe God doesn't know our choices before we make them. Since He knows it and doesn't do anything further to intervene, it is He who ordained that we make that choice. There is a difference between ordain and condone. God ordained that Adam would fall, but He did not condone of the act in and of itself, but the good it would bring about for many new sons of glory to the praise of His glory.
(This isn't the point of the thread though)

Matt Smith said:

No. The pillar of fire/cloud was a creation of God used to direct the children of Israel through the wilderness, though there was an angel present (Exodus 23:20-23), who is described as going before them.

Your other example is not an inanimate object, but rather the only thing the people could see. With the multiple references to angels in the book of Daniel, this too was most likely an angel.

So whenever the term "angel" is used it must refer to a personal self-conscious terrestrial or celestial being? Is there ever a case where an inanimate object is in view? Such as is found with the word 'spirit' in the phrase 'unclean spirit?' An 'evil angel' could be translated as a 'destroying agent' and an earthquake would qualify as a destroying agent of God sent to do His will on Earth.

Anyway those audio sermons were very interesting, thanks. Speaking in the first person for God and not being God doesn't sit well with me at this time, but as I have come to trust Christadelphian theology has answers I don't believe it will let me down - I'm sure there's more evidence than "it has to be because 'no man has seen God at any time.'"

[pete]

I have learnt a great deal about divine Angels from the book of Job.
I take the Satan of Job to mean Job's guardian Angel.

• There is a time Angels 'present' themselves before the LORD like the ancient Israelites did before the Tabernacle
  
• they are Superhuman and could really do anything, on behalf of Yahweh, and only at His command
  
• Although they are trusted by the LORD, but because of their finite knowledge (which is far greater than that of men)in the eyes of the LORD, God charges them with folly (Strong 8417--a unique word found only in Job 4:18 Feminine of an unused noun (apparently from H1984) meaning bluster; braggadocio, that is, (by implication) fatuity: - folly)

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Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

This facts together with other facts from other passages of the scripture will give us richer view of what the Angels really are.

[Mark Taunton]

pete, on 03 August 2011 - 08:49 PM, said:

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Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

This facts together with other facts from other passages of the scripture will give us richer view of what the Angels really are.

It's always important to check the context, when using a quote like the one you give from Job. The person who said those words is Eliphaz the Temanite (see Job 4:1), one of Job's three friends. But God says something about Eliphaz and the two other friends (in fact, he says it twice, to stress it) that we should bear in mind:

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Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

So what Eliphaz says about God was wrong. Not necessarily all of it, but certainly some things. As this statement about God's relationship to his angels doesn't match anything I know of elsewhere in the Bible - and indeed, it appears to contradict some things we are told elsewhere - I suggest it is actually wrong.

[Jesse2W]

How many people share your opinion? I read that some modern Jews have that opinion, but is that the orthodox view? This enemy seems evil to me because of what it desires to do to Job. How do you reconcile that? Anyway, regardless of Job, I don't understand celestial beings. Some basic assumptions are:
They are not God and they have separate minds and self-consciousness from Him.
Their origin is unknown.
Their dwelling place is curious.
They can appear and disappear which is also curious.
There are very many of them.
They are smarter than us.
They are powerful.
They usually look like us.
Can they manifest themselves in different forms such as animals or a pillar of fire? Why does the Bible so often refer to them as angels rather than celestial beings if angel just means messenger or possibly and impersonal agent?

Edited by Jesse2W, 03 August 2011 - 10:25 PM.

[Anna Key]

Here are four passages that I think might help illuminate something about an angel – in this case even his name!

This angel stands in the presence of God, was sent to speak to Daniel to give skill and understanding about a vision. Years later he is sent to inform Zacharias of his pending dumbness because of unbelief and informed him of the birth of his child and when he would be able to speak again.

Gabriel again sent from God informs Mary of the birth of her child Jesus, tells her not only the gender and name but outlines the life and purpose of his life.


Daniel 8:15-20 15 ¶ And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. 17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. 18 ¶ Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. 19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Daniel 9:20-24 20 ¶ And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Luke 1:19-20 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. 20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

Luke 1:26-27 26 ¶ And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.