108 replies to this topic

[Mark Taunton]

Chrlsp, on 12 July 2011 - 08:23 AM, said:

It was a powerful temptation because Jesus is the son of God, and could have easily done what the requested. They wanted him to prove it. But they wanted him to prove it by doing what they wanted and not what his Father wanted. Jesus came to do the will of his Father...not the devil.

"Scripture says Jesus was tempted in all points "like as we are" (Heb 4:15). Has a senior political or religious leader in the present world ever come to you, proposing that you bow down to him and in exchange he will give you all power over the kingdoms of the world, because it has been given to him? That is hardly the experience of many disciples! Indeed, I can think of no example of anything remotely like it, for any other faithful person in the Bible. Can you?"

All we need do here is turn to the book of Revelation and we can read all about it.

Where in the book of Revelation does that happen? I don't see it...

[Mark Taunton]

Chrlsp, on 12 July 2011 - 08:53 AM, said:

What? so now the devil in Rev 2 is not a wicked ruler but characterizing a wicked ruler. Wow, talk about reading into the text something it does not say.


"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Rev 2:10)

The book of Revelation is chock-full of symbolic language. To use "the devil" in this passage to refer to a specific human authority in Smyrna is entirely in keeping with the nature of the book. It is how the book of Revelation is written. We get no actual names of actual rulers and kings anywhere in the book that I can think of. Instead, they are always spoken of symbolically (e.g. beast, dragon, horns, etc) or in abstract non-specific terms, (e.g. "that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth"). That is for good reason.

The point in Rev 2:10 is that those authorities in the world that have power over believers are indeed manifestations of the devil. You have repeatedly argued that as a way the word "devil" is used (e.g. Judas was a devil), and no-one's denying it. The problem is that you seem to get stuck on it and see that sense of the word "devil" everywhere, including places where it just doesn't fit. The temptation of Jesus in the wilderness is one of those places.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 12 July 2011 - 09:31 AM.

[Richie]

Chrisp (by the way, is your surname Bacon?), while I agree with you that the devil in the wilderness temptations refers to the Jewish world, I am a bit confused as to whether you think there was actually someone there with Christ in the wilderness? I don't think the Jewish world would have entered the wilderness since it would have been rather crowded. As I understand it Jesus was alone and dealing with the expectations of Messiah that he knew growing up in that Jewish world. I also believe that the devil of Hebrews 2:14 refers to the same spirit, the spirit of the rulers who put Christ to death.

[Chrlsp]

nsr, on 12 July 2011 - 09:12 AM, said:

What do you understand Rev 2:10 to be saying, Chris?

What do you understand the "devil" in Rev 12 to be, as a matter of interest?

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Rev 12:9)



What the serpent said in Eden was a lie. He is the father of lies and liars. The children of a devil are devils.

What did Jesus say to the Jews who resisted the truth? "Ye are of your father, the devil". Going about altogether, resisitng the truth by the spirit of evil within them, they, as a body are called the devil.

Edited by Chrlsp, 12 July 2011 - 04:45 PM.

[Chrlsp]

Richie, on 12 July 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

Chrisp (by the way, is your surname Bacon?), while I agree with you that the devil in the wilderness temptations refers to the Jewish world, I am a bit confused as to whether you think there was actually someone there with Christ in the wilderness? I don't think the Jewish world would have entered the wilderness since it would have been rather crowded. As I understand it Jesus was alone and dealing with the expectations of Messiah that he knew growing up in that Jewish world. I also believe that the devil of Hebrews 2:14 refers to the same spirit, the spirit of the rulers who put Christ to death.

Bacon? No

[Richie]

Darn. Chris P. Bacon would have been a good name. So what about my more sensible question?

[Chrlsp]

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Rev 12:9)

"The great dragon was cast out.......and his angels were cast out with him."

"that old serpent, called the devil, and satan, which deceiveth the whole world:"

The children of a devil are devils...in this case, the great dragon (an individual) is to be cast out along with his angels (messengers).

[nsr]

So which individual is the dragon referring to? And what specifically are his messengers?

What specifically is being referred to in Rev 2:10?

[Chrlsp]

Richie, on 12 July 2011 - 05:06 PM, said:

Darn. Chris P. Bacon would have been a good name. So what about my more sensible question?

It's not an "i" it's a l.

Edited by Chrlsp, 12 July 2011 - 05:19 PM.

[Chrlsp]

nsr, on 12 July 2011 - 05:13 PM, said:

So which individual is the dragon referring to? And what specifically are his messengers?

What specifically is being referred to in Rev 2:10?

1. The dragon refers to a king and his messengers are his followers. Just as the old serpent had followers.

2. believers being put in prison by Jews who are of the synagogue of Satan.

Edited by Chrlsp, 12 July 2011 - 05:29 PM.

[Richie]

Chrlsp, on 12 July 2011 - 05:14 PM, said:

Richie, on 12 July 2011 - 05:06 PM, said:

Darn. Chris P. Bacon would have been a good name. So what about my more sensible question?

It's not an "i" it's a l.

Oh for crying out loud so it is. Bang goes that idea then.

[nsr]

Chrlsp, on 12 July 2011 - 05:25 PM, said:

nsr, on 12 July 2011 - 05:13 PM, said:

So which individual is the dragon referring to? And what specifically are his messengers?

What specifically is being referred to in Rev 2:10?

1. The dragon refers to a king and his messengers are his followers. Just as the old serpent had followers.

2. believers being put in prison by Jews who are of the synagogue of Satan.

1. Which king? What was his name? Where did he live? Who were his followers? Who were the "old serpent"'s followers? You need to be specific please.

2. In Smyrna? When did the Jews have any power to put people in prison in 1st century Smyrna? Why are you assuming that the synagogue of Satan are the people doing the throwing into prison?

[Richie]

Can we summarize? I am not sure what Chris P. Bacon is advocating although I agree with his/her general idea that the devil/Satan refers to more than simply human nature. But is he/she saying they always refer to Israel? That would be wrong.

[Chrlsp]

1. Who said anything about this king as being past tense? The old serpent's followers were Adam and Eve.

2. "to the seven churches which are in asia". The number seven is the number of completeness. what is said to one applies to all.

[Chrlsp]

Richie, on 12 July 2011 - 05:59 PM, said:

Can we summarize? I am not sure what Chris P. Bacon is advocating although I agree with his/her general idea that the devil/Satan refers to more than simply human nature. But is he/she saying they always refer to Israel? That would be wrong.

I'm advocating a crispy crunchy heavenly savor.

[Curt]

I have viewed "the prince of this world" as a reference to death, which are told "reigned from Adam to Moses" (Rom 5:12). The prince of the world was coming to face Jesus, but would not conquer him. (Rev 1:18) The defeat of the prince of this world is accomplished with his death as John 12:31-32 points out "Now is the judgement of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up (on the cross) will draw all men unto me." Other verses that support this thought are John 10:10
"I am come that they might have life.." 2Tim 1:10 "Jesus Christ has abolished death and has brought life .."Heb 2:14-15 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself took part of the same that that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetimes subject to bondage." The human family were all under the rulership and domain of death. Jesus now has brought life.

Chrlsp, on 11 July 2011 - 03:36 PM, said:

A Christadelphian commentator writes of John 14:30:

"THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD: Ref religious leaders of Israel -- "archon" in Joh 3:1; 7:26,48; 12:31,42; 14:30; 16:11 -- whose offices would be effectively ended by the sacrifice/resur of Christ (Joh 12:32). Caiaphas, the pseudo-high-priest -- and the entire corrupt system over which he presided! Was Caiaphas (or his agent) also the "Satan" of the wilderness temptation (Mat 4:1-11; Mar 1:13; Luk 4:1-13)? Cp also the "devil" of Joh 13:2 and the "Satan" of Joh 13:27.

NO HOLD ON ME: Or "no power over me": cp Jesus' words to Pilate in Joh 19:11."

When Jesus says:
"Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." (John 14:30) he is referring to those who would come to arrest him even though there was no fault in him.

Those who came to arrest Christ were leaders of the Jews:

"Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness." (Luke 22:52-53).

When Jesus was daily with them (the prince of this world) in the temple (40 days in the wilderness)they did not arrest him, but now the hour had come and the power of darkness.

Then we have the devil whose more opportune time came to tempt Christ. When Jesus was hanged on the cross the devil again says "if thou be the son of God"....do this and that and we will believe you.

[Richie]

I think it's more that which produces death, not death itself. In John 8:44 Jesus said the devil was a murderer and refers to Cain. He is the prototype of those who put Christ to death: they exhibited the same spirit.

[Mark Taunton]

Richie

Richie, on 12 July 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

... while I agree with you that the devil in the wilderness temptations refers to the Jewish world, I am a bit confused as to whether you think there was actually someone there with Christ in the wilderness? I don't think the Jewish world would have entered the wilderness since it would have been rather crowded. As I understand it Jesus was alone and dealing with the expectations of Messiah that he knew growing up in that Jewish world.

That's a very abstract notion you're getting at. Of course Jesus had to deal with the faulty expectations of the Jews concerning what Messiah must do. But when Jesus was in the wilderness, it says the devil said things to him, and Jesus said things back to the devil, including an instruction "go away, Satan", which the devil obeyed and left him. While I can understand the concept that "the expectations of Messiah" could in some sense "speak" to him, I can't make sense at all of the idea that he would speak back to them, and them obey him. Please help me, by explaining your thinking here.

But separately from that, the first temptation arose because of Jesus' own hunger. It was a much more immediate personal issue than "Messianic expectations". And later on, Jesus did make bread miraculously for the people, so it couldn't be about not doing that sort of thing in order to avoid misleading them about Messiah. I don't see how "the Jewish world" has anything to do with this first temptation. How do you explain that?

Quote

I also believe that the devil of Hebrews 2:14 refers to the same spirit, the spirit of the rulers who put Christ to death.

This seems to be even more extraordinarily abstract! Please explain that in detail. Heb 2:14 stresses that Jesus had to partake of flesh and blood just like the children God has given him, so that he could destroy the devil through his death. I can't make head nor tail of how your notion of the devil as something to do with the Jewish world, and their expectations of the Messiah fits into this...

[nsr]

Chrlsp, on 12 July 2011 - 06:00 PM, said:

1. Who said anything about this king as being past tense? The old serpent's followers were Adam and Eve.

So you don't think Revelation 12 has yet been fulfilled? When do you think it will be fulfilled?

Quote

2. "to the seven churches which are in asia". The number seven is the number of completeness. what is said to one applies to all.

So there were Jews in all seven cities throwing Christians into prison? Or all Christians are going to be thrown into prison by Jews? Or something else? I'm not sure what you mean by "applies to all". Help me out here.

[Mark Taunton]

Richie,

Richie, on 12 July 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:

I think it's more that which produces death, not death itself. In John 8:44 Jesus said the devil was a murderer and refers to Cain. He is the prototype of those who put Christ to death: they exhibited the same spirit.

No, not Cain - you didn't read the rest of the verse: "when he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" it is talking about the serpent, not Cain, so the first part must be, also.

The serpent was the first murderer, even before Cain. As a consequence of the serpent's lie, Adam and Eve sinned and thus died. Without its lie, they would not have died. So the original serpent is symbolic of and equated with the devil, the deceiver which deceives the whole world (Rev 12:9, Rev 20:2), as the original serpent deceived Eve (2 Cor 11:3, 1 Tim 2:13-14). It represents that source of temptation which has the power or strength of death (Heb 2:14), and of course that happens through the normal process: desire -> temptation -> sin -> death (Jas 1:14-15).

This applies to every human being, from Adam onwards. It is by no means limited to the people who put Christ to death in the first century. We are all guilty of sin, and because of that, Jesus had to die to take away our sins. Focussing on the devil as somehow linked particularly to the Jewish world misses that basic point.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 12 July 2011 - 07:24 PM.

[Richie]

Mark Taunton, on 12 July 2011 - 06:58 PM, said:

Richie

Richie, on 12 July 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

... while I agree with you that the devil in the wilderness temptations refers to the Jewish world, I am a bit confused as to whether you think there was actually someone there with Christ in the wilderness? I don't think the Jewish world would have entered the wilderness since it would have been rather crowded. As I understand it Jesus was alone and dealing with the expectations of Messiah that he knew growing up in that Jewish world.

That's a very abstract notion you're getting at.

Of course it is. The topic of the devil is abstract by necessity.

Quote

Of course Jesus had to deal with the faulty expectations of the Jews concerning what Messiah must do. But when Jesus was in the wilderness, it says the devil said things to him, and Jesus said things back to the devil, including an instruction "go away, Satan", which the devil obeyed and left him. While I can understand the concept that "the expectations of Messiah" could in some sense "speak" to him, I can't make sense at all of the idea that he would speak back to them, and them obey him. Please help me, by explaining your thinking here.

It's obviously not meant to be taken literally, unless you think he literally went to the pinnacle of the temple and so forth. It's dramatized so we can enter into the mind of our Lord and see what he was battling. He was training himself for when he would experience the same temptations again, at the hands of the people. Have a look at John 6-7 - all three temptations are there and this time it's the Jewish world tempting him.

Quote

But separately from that, the first temptation arose because of Jesus' own hunger. It was a much more immediate personal issue than "Messianic expectations".

It was both. He had the power to give in to his hunger and he had power to give in to what the people expected.

Quote

And later on, Jesus did make bread miraculously for the people, so it couldn't be about not doing that sort of thing in order to avoid misleading them about Messiah. I don't see how "the Jewish world" has anything to do with this first temptation. How do you explain that?

Because in John 6 he was asked to do a miracle involving bread *for the wrong reasons* and refused.

Quote

Quote

I also believe that the devil of Hebrews 2:14 refers to the same spirit, the spirit of the rulers who put Christ to death.

This seems to be even more extraordinarily abstract! Please explain that in detail. Heb 2:14 stresses that Jesus had to partake of flesh and blood just like the children God has given him, so that he could destroy the devil through his death. I can't make head nor tail of how your notion of the devil as something to do with the Jewish world, and their expectations of the Messiah fits into this...

Look at the context. Jesus is called the captain of our salvation, a title only used in the context of Jesus being put to death by the world he lived in. Look at the quotations used to prove Jesus came in the flesh - the context of each is about the same thing. Look at the prototype of Hebrews 2:14 - Saul who persecuted David, again pointing forward to the contradiction of sinners against Christ, the seed of the serpent.

[Richie]

Mark Taunton, on 12 July 2011 - 07:13 PM, said:

Richie,

Richie, on 12 July 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:

I think it's more that which produces death, not death itself. In John 8:44 Jesus said the devil was a murderer and refers to Cain. He is the prototype of those who put Christ to death: they exhibited the same spirit.

No, not Cain - you didn't read the rest of the verse: "when he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" it is talking about the serpent, not Cain, so the first part must be, also.

Cain was the seed of the serpent. It's the same spirit from the serpent, through Cain and onwards.

Quote

The serpent was the first murderer, even before Cain. As a consequence of the serpent's lie, Adam and Eve sinned and thus died. Without its lie, they would not have died.

That's not murder! Cain was the murderer. Jesus linking Cain with the serpent is just what John does in 1 John 3.

Quote

So the original serpent is symbolic of and equated with the devil, the deceiver which deceives the whole world (Rev 12:9, Rev 20:2), as the original serpent deceived Eve (2 Cor 11:3, 1 Tim 2:13-14). It represents that source of temptation which has the power or strength of death (Heb 2:14), and of course that happens through the normal process: desire -> temptation -> sin -> death (Jas 1:14-15).

Yes and Cain was "of the wicked one".

Quote

This applies to every human being, from Adam onwards. It is by no means limited to the people who put Christ to death in the first century. We are all guilty of sin, and because of that, Jesus had to die to take away our sins. Focussing on the devil as somehow linked particularly to the Jewish world misses that basic point.

No, you are missing the basic point that the terms devil and Satan are used in specific contexts. Paul doesn't use either term in Romans 7. Neither does James in James 1. Nor Jesus in Mark 7. The terms refer to specific manifestations of sin.

[Richie]

Sorry if that was too succinct. I have a whole Bible school study worth of material on the temptations of Christ I would be glad to share at some point but I don't have time to write it up at the moment.

[Chrlsp]

Curt, on 12 July 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

I have viewed "the prince of this world" as a reference to death, which are told "reigned from Adam to Moses" (Rom 5:12). The prince of the world was coming to face Jesus, but would not conquer him. (Rev 1:18) The defeat of the prince of this world is accomplished with his death as John 12:31-32 points out "Now is the judgement of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up (on the cross) will draw all men unto me." Other verses that support this thought are John 10:10
"I am come that they might have life.." 2Tim 1:10 "Jesus Christ has abolished death and has brought life .."Heb 2:14-15 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself took part of the same that that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetimes subject to bondage." The human family were all under the rulership and domain of death. Jesus now has brought life.

Chrlsp, on 11 July 2011 - 03:36 PM, said:

A Christadelphian commentator writes of John 14:30:

"THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD: Ref religious leaders of Israel -- "archon" in Joh 3:1; 7:26,48; 12:31,42; 14:30; 16:11 -- whose offices would be effectively ended by the sacrifice/resur of Christ (Joh 12:32). Caiaphas, the pseudo-high-priest -- and the entire corrupt system over which he presided! Was Caiaphas (or his agent) also the "Satan" of the wilderness temptation (Mat 4:1-11; Mar 1:13; Luk 4:1-13)? Cp also the "devil" of Joh 13:2 and the "Satan" of Joh 13:27.

NO HOLD ON ME: Or "no power over me": cp Jesus' words to Pilate in Joh 19:11."

When Jesus says:
"Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." (John 14:30) he is referring to those who would come to arrest him even though there was no fault in him.

Those who came to arrest Christ were leaders of the Jews:

"Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness." (Luke 22:52-53).

When Jesus was daily with them (the prince of this world) in the temple (40 days in the wilderness)they did not arrest him, but now the hour had come and the power of darkness.

Then we have the devil whose more opportune time came to tempt Christ. When Jesus was hanged on the cross the devil again says "if thou be the son of God"....do this and that and we will believe you.

Curt,


Yes. Here, with reference to "the prince of this world", are some very good examples of "the devil" as sin in the flesh and disbeliving sinners.

The verse I quoted, John 14:30, you referenced with John 12:31-32. Now we need rightly divide the word of truth.

You are right that John 12:31-32 refers to "the prince" as death. That passage ought to be referenced with John 16:11.

However, John 14:30 ought be referenced with 1 Cor 2:6-8.

"Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

Edited by Chrlsp, 12 July 2011 - 08:52 PM.

[Phil]

Richie, on 12 July 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

As I understand it Jesus was alone and dealing with the expectations of Messiah that he knew growing up in that Jewish world.

That's about the best summary sentence of the temptations of Christ that i've ever seen. I did a talk on the temptations at the start of the year and pretty much came to the same conclusions. There's other aspects (the pressures and doubt surrounding his paternity), but that is key.

P.S. I agree with you on Cain - having a big discussion about in on Facebook at the moment

[Mark Taunton]

Richie, on 12 July 2011 - 07:32 PM, said:

Quote

This applies to every human being, from Adam onwards. It is by no means limited to the people who put Christ to death in the first century. We are all guilty of sin, and because of that, Jesus had to die to take away our sins. Focussing on the devil as somehow linked particularly to the Jewish world misses that basic point.

No, you are missing the basic point that the terms devil and Satan are used in specific contexts. Paul doesn't use either term in Romans 7. Neither does James in James 1. Nor Jesus in Mark 7. The terms refer to specific manifestations of sin.

OK, I'd need to read some more from you to build on that. But for now I note that while the devil isn't mentioned in James 1, he does speak of resisting it, in James 4. Is there some specific Jewish world connection in the latter passage, that doesn't apply in the first? It's not obvious to me.

Edited by Mark Taunton, 12 July 2011 - 09:04 PM.

[Chrlsp]

Phil, on 12 July 2011 - 09:00 PM, said:

Richie, on 12 July 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

As I understand it Jesus was alone and dealing with the expectations of Messiah that he knew growing up in that Jewish world.

That's about the best summary sentence of the temptations of Christ that i've ever seen. I did a talk on the temptations at the start of the year and pretty much came to the same conclusions. There's other aspects (the pressures and doubt surrounding his paternity), but that is key.

P.S. I agree with you on Cain - having a big discussion about in on Facebook at the moment

"As I understand it Jesus was alone and dealing with the expectations of Messiah that he knew growing up in that Jewish world."

Does the Bible teach that? No! people teach that. How can it be the best summmary of Jesus's temptations when the Scripture mentions nothing of the sort. Where does it teach that Messiah had to deal with expectations he knew growing up in the Jewish world?

What expectations are you referring to anyway?

Edited by Chrlsp, 12 July 2011 - 09:14 PM.

[Curt]

Hebrews 2 continues the thought started in chapter 1, of Christ's superiority to the angels. The writer shows that man will be exalted to a place above the angels. Heb 2:6 go's back to Ps 8 where the Psalmist shows man being in dominion of all of God's works. Hebrews 2 says, this has not yet taken place (8 "we see not yet all things put under him"), what we see, that has taken place, is God's glorified son, the hope of a changed world."we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, (now)crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should TASTE DEATH FOR EVERY MAN" I see this as the same thing as destroying him that had the power of death in vs 14. He put the carnal nature that he was made with (the devil)to death. In his natural death on the cross, death that had reigned over mankind was destroyed. Heb 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children (mankind) were partakers of flesh and blood (a human body and nature)he also himself took part of the same (physical body and human nature)that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death (possibly a quote from 2Sam 22:41 and from Gen 49:8)that is the devil(the nature of the flesh) and deliver them (humanity) who through fear of death wee all their lifetimes subject to bondage". Sin and death ruled over man. Gen 4:7 "sin lies at the door ... and shall rule over him." Rom 5:14 "death reigned" Our hope now is Rom 5:17"If by one mans offense (Adam) death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ". The thought continues in Rom 6:9 "death shall have no more dominion". Rom 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body that you should obey it in the lusts thereof". (14) "For sin (and therefore death) shall not have dominion over you"

There are other supporting verses to the thought of death being the prince of the world, these are probably sufficient for you to see where I am coming from on this subject.

Mark Taunton, on 12 July 2011 - 06:58 PM, said:

Richie

Richie, on 12 July 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

... while I agree with you that the devil in the wilderness temptations refers to the Jewish world, I am a bit confused as to whether you think there was actually someone there with Christ in the wilderness? I don't think the Jewish world would have entered the wilderness since it would have been rather crowded. As I understand it Jesus was alone and dealing with the expectations of Messiah that he knew growing up in that Jewish world.

That's a very abstract notion you're getting at. Of course Jesus had to deal with the faulty expectations of the Jews concerning what Messiah must do. But when Jesus was in the wilderness, it says the devil said things to him, and Jesus said things back to the devil, including an instruction "go away, Satan", which the devil obeyed and left him. While I can understand the concept that "the expectations of Messiah" could in some sense "speak" to him, I can't make sense at all of the idea that he would speak back to them, and them obey him. Please help me, by explaining your thinking here.

But separately from that, the first temptation arose because of Jesus' own hunger. It was a much more immediate personal issue than "Messianic expectations". And later on, Jesus did make bread miraculously for the people, so it couldn't be about not doing that sort of thing in order to avoid misleading them about Messiah. I don't see how "the Jewish world" has anything to do with this first temptation. How do you explain that?

Quote

I also believe that the devil of Hebrews 2:14 refers to the same spirit, the spirit of the rulers who put Christ to death.

This seems to be even more extraordinarily abstract! Please explain that in detail. Heb 2:14 stresses that Jesus had to partake of flesh and blood just like the children God has given him, so that he could destroy the devil through his death. I can't make head nor tail of how your notion of the devil as something to do with the Jewish world, and their expectations of the Messiah fits into this...

[Kay]

Just as an aside, there has been previous discussion about this topic - one of the posts is here:

Temptation Studies - Lucas Scheepers

Please also note:

The handle - Mishael - who posted the article was my previous handle - the Administrator (though I have access to this account) was used by two at the time - the additional comment and agreement was made by the other Administrator at the time.

Interesting subject, internal or external ... my understanding is external, because of what had just taken place, "this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased" - and then for Christ to be tempted in such a way, his own thoughts ... anyway, back to other matters.

[Richie]

Mark Taunton, on 12 July 2011 - 09:03 PM, said:

Richie, on 12 July 2011 - 07:32 PM, said:

Quote

This applies to every human being, from Adam onwards. It is by no means limited to the people who put Christ to death in the first century. We are all guilty of sin, and because of that, Jesus had to die to take away our sins. Focussing on the devil as somehow linked particularly to the Jewish world misses that basic point.

No, you are missing the basic point that the terms devil and Satan are used in specific contexts. Paul doesn't use either term in Romans 7. Neither does James in James 1. Nor Jesus in Mark 7. The terms refer to specific manifestations of sin.

OK, I'd need to read some more from you to build on that. But for now I note that while the devil isn't mentioned in James 1, he does speak of resisting it, in James 4. Is there some specific Jewish world connection in the latter passage, that doesn't apply in the first? It's not obvious to me.

It's not always the Jewish world. The terms are used wherever there's an enemy present in some form. So in 1 Peter 5 it appears it's talking about the Roman oppressor. In Revelation 12 it's the pagan Roman empire. In James 4 the context is the rich brethren persecuting the poor.