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Considering Revelation 10 and 11


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#1 nsr

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 09:01 AM

So I'm doing a Bible class in a couple of months entitled "Revelation (part 6): The Two Witnesses" in which I'll be considering chapters 10 and 11 of said book.

I'd like to start this thread so we can have some discussion on what the chapter may mean.

The way I like to study Revelation is to:
( 1 ) read over the chapters involved a few times, and then compile a list of questions which need answered.
( 2 ) try to answer the questions by various means such as looking at symbolic usage in the Old Testament, seeing how things fit into the overall structure of Revelation, and generally analysing the text and waiting for a brilliant idea to strike.

So here are the questions I currently have for Rev 10 and 11:

- Who are the two witnesses?

- What is the great city?

- What is the great earthquake?

- Why has the Kingdom (apparently) come again?

- What has happened to the sea beast by the end of this sixth trumpet?

- What are the seven thunders and why do they have to be sealed up?

- What is the little scroll that John “eats”?

- Why does it taste like honey but turn his stomach bitter?

- What is the significance of the angel’s appearance in Rev 10?

- What does it mean that the angel puts one foot in the sea and the other on the land?

- Why is John told he must prophecy again about “many peoples and nations and tongues and kings”?

- Why is he told to measure the temple and the altar and those who worship in it?

- Why does he have to leave out the outer court, and what does it symbolise?

- What does the 1260 days/42 months mean?

- Why are the two witnesses symbolised as two olive trees and lampstands? Lampstands are elsewhere symbols of an ecclesia.

- Is there a distinction between the witnesses’ fire power, and their powers over drought and water? They appear to be described separately.

- What is the beast that comes up out of the abyss? Why does it make war with and overcome them?

- Why is “the great city” called Sodom and Egypt?

- Why are those who dwell on the earth celebrating over the death of the witnesses? Why do they not allow them to be buried?

- What does it mean that the two witnesses “tormented” those who dwell on the earth?

- What does it mean that the witnesses are raised back to life and appear to go to heaven?


I'll add more as I think of them, as well as my analysis and answers.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#2 Mercia2

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 02:33 PM

- Who are the two witnesses? - Moses and Jesus

- What is the great city? - Christendom

- What is the great earthquake? - Reformation

- Why has the Kingdom (apparently) come again?n - In the image of the former

- What has happened to the sea beast by the end of this sixth trumpet? - lost authority

- What are the seven thunders and why do they have to be sealed up? - OT symbolism shows these thunders are prophecies of God hence at the end we are told to "prophesy AGAIN", john was about to write them down but was told not to write them down, why? Obviously because they are already written down and represent the dual fulfillment of seven prophecies in the book of Revelation already written down. Hence we have Chernobyl/wormwood, the UPC barcode, the seven dual prophecies include the trumpets and Revelation 13.

- What is the little scroll that John “eats”? - the Word of God in the context of Gods judgements/prophecies, the bitter/sweet truth.

- Why does it taste like honey but turn his stomach bitter? - because when Gods Word/judgement is internalised and the truth is known the truth is hard, like hailstones, it is bitter sweet.

- What is the significance of the angel’s appearance in Rev 10? - delivering Daniels sealed book until the time of the end now delivered "open" (Rev 10;3-6)

- What does it mean that the angel puts one foot in the sea and the other on the land? - That he has authority over what is represented by the sea and by the land

- Why is John told he must prophecy again about “many peoples and nations and tongues and kings”? - this is a message to our generation, we must prophecy again the dual fulfillment of the book of Revelation, such prophecies like wormwood/chernobyl, the upc bar code etc etc

- Why is he told to measure the temple and the altar and those who worship in it? - judgement

- Why does he have to leave out the outer court, and what does it symbolise? - measuring/judging the Church

- What does the 1260 days/42 months mean? - 1260 year rule of papal authority

- Why are the two witnesses symbolised as two olive trees and lampstands? Lampstands are elsewhere symbols of an ecclesia. - the old covenant Church/the new Covenant Church

- Is there a distinction between the witnesses’ fire power, and their powers over drought and water? They appear to be described separately. - fire represents Holy Spirit, waters represent teachings or people

- What is the beast that comes up out of the abyss? Why does it make war with and overcome them? - Revised holy Roman empire or papal catholicism, same thing.

- Why is “the great city” called Sodom and Egypt? - that is the current spiritual condition of Christendom

- Why are those who dwell on the earth celebrating over the death of the witnesses? Why do they not allow them to be buried? - we keep Christianity going as a tradition and send each other gifts at Christmas but really the world is adoring the opposite principles to the truth, i,e materialism and gluttony.

- What does it mean that the two witnesses “tormented” those who dwell on the earth? - the truth of the Bible, old and new testament torments those that wish to continue in sin

- What does it mean that the witnesses are raised back to life and appear to go to heaven? - Christianity will be once more exalted


Edited by Mercia2, 26 April 2011 - 02:36 PM.

"and will smite every HORSE OF THE PEOPLE with blindness"

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_symbolic_meaning_of_a_horse#ixzz1K0LLUt00

#3 nsr

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 02:38 PM

Thanks Mercia, but I'll be putting you on ignore in this thread if that's OK.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#4 Mercia2

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 04:48 PM

Thanks Mercia, but I'll be putting you on ignore in this thread if that's OK.

Your loss, all of that is correct and can be demonstrated so with Scripture.
I spent 8 years full time studying it.
"and will smite every HORSE OF THE PEOPLE with blindness"

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_symbolic_meaning_of_a_horse#ixzz1K0LLUt00

#5 Stephen

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 06:35 PM

Who are the two witnesses?


Taking a swing without having gone over Revelation for many years.......

From the parenthetical comment in Rev. 11:3-4 we have.

11:3 And I will grant my two witnesses authority to prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth.
11:4 (These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.)

The Lampstands are then interpreted to be churches from Rev 1:20. Possibly implying that the witnesses spanned two church ages in Rev 2 and 3. (I have no idea if this is a common interpretation, this is more of a blank slate guess)

1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.


The Olive trees linking back to Zecharaah 4 (Whole chapter)

4:13 He replied, “Don’t you know what these are?” And I said, “No, sir.” 4:14 So he said, “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”

In context the olive trees are Joshua and Zerubbabel, the priest and the governor. Only the high priest and king were anointed for office.





Well I'll be darned, that is where we get the two witnesses being the church and the state..... I honestly didn't know why before I tried to answer your question.
The important things are always simple; the simple are always hard.

#6 Stephen

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 07:39 PM

- What are the seven thunders and why do they have to be sealed up?


The seven thunders are apparently seven more events that occur between the 6th and 7th trumpet. Thunder would imply the nature of the event is recognizably driven by God. (Rather than wars, or social uphevals).

Why are they sealed up? The optimist in me wants to think that the church would be out of the picture, and as prophecy is for the church (1 Corinthians 14:22), the seven thunders have no need to be revealed.

- What is the little scroll that John “eats”?


Ezekiel ate a scroll like it, containing laments, mourning, and woe. (Eze 2:10). Possibly the same, except that Ezekiel's wasn't bitter in his stomach, John's was.

- Why does it taste like honey but turn his stomach bitter?


Possibly a link to Isaiah 5:20
5:20 Those who call evil good and good evil are as good as dead, who turn darkness into light and light into darkness, who turn bitter into sweet and sweet into bitter.

In this case, it would indicate that the sweet words of God were poisoned.

Another interpretation might be that the little scroll was too much to eat. (Proverbs 27:7-9)
The important things are always simple; the simple are always hard.

#7 Mercia2

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 08:12 PM

The seven thunders are apparently seven more events that occur between the 6th and 7th trumpet. Thunder would imply the nature of the event is recognizably driven by God. (Rather than wars, or social uphevals).


Spot on :P

Amos 3:6-8

6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? 7 surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
8 The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord GOD hath spoken, who can but prophesy?


Compare...

Rev 10:2-6

And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. 4And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.



The seven thunders are seven additional prophecies delivered as you say at the end of the 6th trumpet and 7th, in other words sometime after 1844 according to the most common Histoticist interpretation of when trumpet 6 was fulfilled.

That is why the chapter ends saying we must "prophesy again" (dual fulfillment), we know it has to be a dual fullfilment of the prophecies John had already written down as he was going to write them down but was told not to, so they have to be already written down, following the now proven Biblical concept of dual fulfillment. This has major implications for what we should be doing now.


.

Edited by Mercia2, 26 April 2011 - 08:51 PM.

"and will smite every HORSE OF THE PEOPLE with blindness"

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_symbolic_meaning_of_a_horse#ixzz1K0LLUt00

#8 Mercia2

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 08:42 PM

- What are the seven thunders and why do they have to be sealed up?


The seven thunders are apparently seven more events that occur between the 6th and 7th trumpet. Thunder would imply the nature of the event is recognizably driven by God. (Rather than wars, or social uphevals).

Why are they sealed up? The optimist in me wants to think that the church would be out of the picture, and as prophecy is for the church (1 Corinthians 14:22), the seven thunders have no need to be revealed.

- What is the little scroll that John “eats”?


Ezekiel ate a scroll like it, containing laments, mourning, and woe. (Eze 2:10). Possibly the same, except that Ezekiel's wasn't bitter in his stomach, John's was.

- Why does it taste like honey but turn his stomach bitter?


Possibly a link to Isaiah 5:20
5:20 Those who call evil good and good evil are as good as dead, who turn darkness into light and light into darkness, who turn bitter into sweet and sweet into bitter.

In this case, it would indicate that the sweet words of God were poisoned.

Another interpretation might be that the little scroll was too much to eat. (Proverbs 27:7-9)



"How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!" Ps 119:103
"and will smite every HORSE OF THE PEOPLE with blindness"

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_symbolic_meaning_of_a_horse#ixzz1K0LLUt00

#9 Stephen

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 10:32 PM

- What is the significance of the angel’s appearance in Rev 10?


Rev 10:1 Then I saw another powerful angel descending from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun and his legs were like pillars of fire.

This is another linkage to Ezekiel's vision (Eze. 1). They appear to be looking at the same place at different times and at different angels.

The rainbow is guarantee of the covenant confirmed between God and all flesh (Gen 9:12-17). Rainbows are only mentioned in 4 places in scripture (Eze 1, Gen 9, Rev 4, Rev 10). This is probably another interesting rabbit hole to jump into.

The pillar of cloud and pillar of fire are what led the Israelites out of Egypt (Ex 13:20-22, Ex 14). The cloud by day, and the fire by night. (May or may not be a linkage, as in this case there are two and Exodus there was one).

Clouds are the medium from God appeared to Moses (Ex 16:10, 19:9, 19:16, 24:15 and a whole lot more) and also a necessary precurser for rainbows.

Fire symbolizes a purifying force, or judgment.

Face was like the sun, almost, but not quite equates this angel to the person in Rev 1:16 and the transfiguration, as Rev 1:16 and the Transfiguration uses "face shone like the sun" and this reference uses "face was like the sun". My guess would be that this symbolizes the angel doing the bidding of Jesus.
The important things are always simple; the simple are always hard.

#10 Unbound68

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 02:18 AM

So I'm doing a Bible class in a couple of months entitled "Revelation (part 6): The Two Witnesses" in which I'll be considering chapters 10 and 11 of said book.

I'd like to start this thread so we can have some discussion on what the chapter may mean.


The way I like to study Revelation is to:
( 1 ) read over the chapters involved a few times, and then compile a list of questions which need answered.
( 2 ) try to answer the questions by various means such as looking at symbolic usage in the Old Testament, seeing how things fit into the overall structure of Revelation, and generally analysing the text and waiting for a brilliant idea to strike.



Hello nsr. What commentaries on the Apocalypse do you currently own or have access to?

I only ask for this reason: I have frequented several boards over the last 11 years. I've been involved in many discussions on topics such as baptism, KJV onlyism, eschatology, Calvinism, and the gap theory. One thing that I've found common to every single board I've frequented is that there are some who feel the need to re-invent the wheel. I'm not at all saying we shouldn't study our Bibles. But I do believe God placed helps within the Church (pastors, prophets, teachers, etc.) to aid in our understanding and spiritual growth. Coming from an historicist perpsective, I also believe the Church in the last 2000 years has come up with the correct interpretation of the Apocalypse (at least regarding the prophecies that have been fulfilled).

So what am I saying? I'm saying one should become familiar with the insights of the saints who have preceded us, using their numerous writings to aid us with our Bible study and interpretation of the Apocalypse. As an added bonus, being familiar with how the Church through the ages interpreted the prophecies will make it easy to identify when, and upon what, there was consensus. Consequently, it also makes it easy to identify interpretations that have departed from that consensus (enter Maitland, Stuart, Lee, Todd, Darby, Scofield, Chilton, Gentry, etc).

I would heartily recommend Guinness, Elliott, Downame, Pareus, Fulke, Brightman, and Cartwright for starters. I haven't had time to get into Thomas or other Christadelphian authors, but plan to.

Chances are, the "brilliant idea" you're waiting for has already "struck" the Church centuries before you were born!

Respectfully,
Keith

Edited by nsr, 28 April 2011 - 08:07 AM.
Removed references to other posters

‘Any system of interpretation that violates this fundamental law of the book is thereby stamped as erroneous. The system that says: "Babylon means Babylon; and the literal ancient Babylon, will, we are bound to believe, be revived," must be false. In the Apocalypse, Babylon does not mean Babylon, nor Jerusalem Jerusalem, nor a Jew a Jew, nor the temple the temple ; the system therefore that says "all this Jewish imagery proves that the book has reference to the future of the Jewish nation, and not to the future of the church," must be false. All this Jewish imagery is symbolic; these things are used as signs. Everything connected with Israel was typical of things connected with the church. The things signified must therefore be Christian, otherwise the sign and the thing signified, would be one and the same.’ (H. Grattan Guinness, The Approaching End of the Age, pg. 105)

#11 nsr

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 08:09 AM

Hi Unbound68,

I'll answer your question as soon as I can, but just to let you know I've removed the references to other posters on this forum from your post, as well as the reply from Mercia2 which followed. Let's keep this thread for discussion of Revelation 10 and 11, and keep discussion of Mercia's ideas in the other thread.

Thanks :P
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#12 nsr

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 08:24 AM

Hello nsr. What commentaries on the Apocalypse do you currently own or have access to?

I've got most of what I think are the "standard" Bible commentaries (JFB etc) on my computer, but nothing really specific to Revelation except John Thomas' Eureka which I haven't got around to reading yet.

I only ask for this reason: I have frequented several boards over the last 11 years. I've been involved in many discussions on topics such as baptism, KJV onlyism, eschatology, Calvinism, and the gap theory. One thing that I've found common to every single board I've frequented is that there are some who feel the need to re-invent the wheel. I'm not at all saying we shouldn't study our Bibles. But I do believe God placed helps within the Church (pastors, prophets, teachers, etc.) to aid in our understanding and spiritual growth. Coming from an historicist perpsective, I also believe the Church in the last 2000 years has come up with the correct interpretation of the Apocalypse (at least regarding the prophecies that have been fulfilled).

Which prophecies do you have in mind?

So what am I saying? I'm saying one should become familiar with the insights of the saints who have preceded us, using their numerous writings to aid us with our Bible study and interpretation of the Apocalypse. As an added bonus, being familiar with how the Church through the ages interpreted the prophecies will make it easy to identify when, and upon what, there was consensus. Consequently, it also makes it easy to identify interpretations that have departed from that consensus (enter Maitland, Stuart, Lee, Todd, Darby, Scofield, Chilton, Gentry, etc).

I would heartily recommend Guinness, Elliott, Downame, Pareus, Fulke, Brightman, and Cartwright for starters. I haven't had time to get into Thomas or other Christadelphian authors, but plan to.

Chances are, the "brilliant idea" you're waiting for has already "struck" the Church centuries before you were born!

Thanks for the suggestions. I don't know how familiar you are with the Christadelphian community, but the problem we tend to have regarding Revelation is that people tend to stick fairly dogmatically to one of two particular mutually incompatible viewpoints on the book. This is because they read the writings of brethren who have gone before them, and then defend their views very enthusiastically, but in my opinion haven't actually done the groundwork necessary to truly understand the book for themselves, or understand why those brethren reached those conclusions, and why those conclusions may or may not be correct.

That's my main motivation for starting the book from scratch. I understand what you're saying about not wanting to "re-invent the wheel", but I find that the process of studying the Bible, and the spiritual growth that comes with that process, is just as important as "getting the right answer" at the end of the process. As an analogy, if my child is sitting a maths exam, I don't want her just to be handed the right answers, I want her to be able to understand how to work them out herself. Today's society is a lazy, soundbite society which wants to know the answer straight away without putting in the personal effort of trying to work it out - that's something I want to root out of myself.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#13 Unbound68

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 02:52 PM

I've got most of what I think are the "standard" Bible commentaries (JFB etc) on my computer, but nothing really specific to Revelation except John Thomas' Eureka which I haven't got around to reading yet.


I would be happy to upload a few of the commentaries I mentioned for you to download. You can find some of them at http://books.google.com for free.



Which prophecies do you have in mind?


I was speaking generally. Some examples would be the identities of the Beast, Mystery Babylon, the locusts, the star that fell, the witnesses, etc.



Thanks for the suggestions. I don't know how familiar you are with the Christadelphian community, but the problem we tend to have regarding Revelation is that people tend to stick fairly dogmatically to one of two particular mutually incompatible viewpoints on the book. This is because they read the writings of brethren who have gone before them, and then defend their views very enthusiastically, but in my opinion haven't actually done the groundwork necessary to truly understand the book for themselves, or understand why those brethren reached those conclusions, and why those conclusions may or may not be correct.

That's my main motivation for starting the book from scratch. I understand what you're saying about not wanting to "re-invent the wheel", but I find that the process of studying the Bible, and the spiritual growth that comes with that process, is just as important as "getting the right answer" at the end of the process. As an analogy, if my child is sitting a maths exam, I don't want her just to be handed the right answers, I want her to be able to understand how to work them out herself. Today's society is a lazy, soundbite society which wants to know the answer straight away without putting in the personal effort of trying to work it out - that's something I want to root out of myself.


Understood. But it seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that you want to go through such an exersize without any outside helps. In my opinion, it would be better to know what the saints of old believed, and why, *before* you try interpreting the Apocalypse "from scratch." You could then go about the process of seeing whether their arguments and conclusions jive with your own, and with Scripture. In other words, it's always good to have a plumb line by which you can guage the accuracy of your conclusions.

And I apologize if I crossed the line with my comments about other posters. I was merely trying to illustrate what could happen when one grabs their Bible and tries too hard to "work it out," while neglecting the wisdom of our predecessors. Were 100 different people to pick up their Bibles (to the exclusion of all outside helps) and try to interpret the Apocalypse, they would probably arrive at 100 different interpretations. Thus, instead of the result being the true interpretation of the Apocalypse, it just might mask anew that which the Church had unmasked centuries ago. Part of society's laziness is its unwillingness to acquaint itself with various histories (Roman Empire, Reformation, Papacy, etc.).

"That which is true is not new, and that which is new is not true," to quote a famous preacher.


God bless,
Keith

Edited by Unbound68, 28 April 2011 - 03:06 PM.

‘Any system of interpretation that violates this fundamental law of the book is thereby stamped as erroneous. The system that says: "Babylon means Babylon; and the literal ancient Babylon, will, we are bound to believe, be revived," must be false. In the Apocalypse, Babylon does not mean Babylon, nor Jerusalem Jerusalem, nor a Jew a Jew, nor the temple the temple ; the system therefore that says "all this Jewish imagery proves that the book has reference to the future of the Jewish nation, and not to the future of the church," must be false. All this Jewish imagery is symbolic; these things are used as signs. Everything connected with Israel was typical of things connected with the church. The things signified must therefore be Christian, otherwise the sign and the thing signified, would be one and the same.’ (H. Grattan Guinness, The Approaching End of the Age, pg. 105)

#14 nsr

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 06:23 PM

I would be happy to upload a few of the commentaries I mentioned for you to download. You can find some of them at http://books.google.com for free.

Sure, if it's not putting you to too much trouble :sarah:. Thanks very much.


Which prophecies do you have in mind?

I was speaking generally. Some examples would be the identities of the Beast, Mystery Babylon, the locusts, the star that fell, the witnesses, etc.

Just out of curiosity, what is your take on those? What did they mean and when did it take place?

Understood. But it seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that you want to go through such an exersize without any outside helps. In my opinion, it would be better to know what the saints of old believed, and why, *before* you try interpreting the Apocalypse "from scratch." You could then go about the process of seeing whether their arguments and conclusions jive with your own, and with Scripture. In other words, it's always good to have a plumb line by which you can guage the accuracy of your conclusions.

Yes, I see what you mean. Rest assured that I'm not approaching Revelation with the attitude of "everybody who has ever studied this book before me has got it wrong, and I alone can interpret it correctly" :P. However at the same time I also don't want to take the approach of, "Well, such-and-such a person interprets it thusly, therefore I cannot think outside of those boundaries", if you see what I mean.

And I apologize if I crossed the line with my comments about other posters. I was merely trying to illustrate what could happen when one grabs their Bible and tries too hard to "work it out," while neglecting the wisdom of our predecessors. Were 100 different people to pick up their Bibles (to the exclusion of all outside helps) and try to interpret the Apocalypse, they would probably arrive at 100 different interpretations. Thus, instead of the result being the true interpretation of the Apocalypse, it just might mask anew that which the Church had unmasked centuries ago. Part of society's laziness is its unwillingness to acquaint itself with various histories (Roman Empire, Reformation, Papacy, etc.).


No problem. The subject of Revelation has in the past stirred up very heated personal disagreements on this forum, hence my caution. I'm happy to have ideas criticised, but we should where possible avoid criticising the individuals who hold them.

Anyway it's a long weekend for me, so I am hoping to be able to spend some time tackling the questions I have raised. Thanks Stephen for your efforts so far in doing so :doh:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#15 Stephen

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 07:05 PM

Thanks Stephen for your efforts so far in doing so :P


You are welcome. I'm going to have to go back to Eureka, the 13 lectures, etc... and see how close I came. I find getting a little lost and finding my way around quite rewarding.


- Why is John told he must prophecy again about “many peoples and nations and tongues and kings”?


It sets the context for Rev 11. Rev 11 is about many peoples, and nations, and tonges, and kings (see also 11:9) whom the two witnesses will be giving their testimony to.

It also indicates that Chapter 11 is not a contiuation of chapter 10. Chapter 11 is another prophecy. Perhaps that verse should be moved from the end of Chapter 10 to the beginning of chapter 11.

Tangent: This is another link to Ezekiel. In opposition to Ezekiel who was preaching to Israel in their own language (specifically mentioned), and they wouldn't listen. Also, if Ezekiel was speaking to foreigners, they may have listened (Eze 3:4-6).

Another tangent: The most fantastically successful old testament prophet (Jonah) spoke to foreigners, and he hated the fact that he was successful. He wasn't even appreciated much in the NT either (John 7:52).
The important things are always simple; the simple are always hard.

#16 Unbound68

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 09:37 PM


I would be happy to upload a few of the commentaries I mentioned for you to download. You can find some of them at http://books.google.com for free.

Sure, if it's not putting you to too much trouble :P. Thanks very much.





Here are a few you can find online and download for free:

E. B. Elliott

Horae Apocalypticae

volume 1
http://www.archive.o...apocalypt01elli

volume 2
http://www.archive.o...aeapocaly02elli

volume 3
http://www.archive.o...aeapocaly03elli

volume 4
http://www.archive.o...aeapocaly04elli



David Pareus

A Commentary upon the Divine Revelation

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false



H. Grattan Guinness

Romanism and the Reformation
http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

History Unveiling Prophecy
http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

The Approaching End of the Age
http://books.google....epage&q&f=false



I can upload earlier works if you have Dropbox. I will write more later.

God bless,
Keith
‘Any system of interpretation that violates this fundamental law of the book is thereby stamped as erroneous. The system that says: "Babylon means Babylon; and the literal ancient Babylon, will, we are bound to believe, be revived," must be false. In the Apocalypse, Babylon does not mean Babylon, nor Jerusalem Jerusalem, nor a Jew a Jew, nor the temple the temple ; the system therefore that says "all this Jewish imagery proves that the book has reference to the future of the Jewish nation, and not to the future of the church," must be false. All this Jewish imagery is symbolic; these things are used as signs. Everything connected with Israel was typical of things connected with the church. The things signified must therefore be Christian, otherwise the sign and the thing signified, would be one and the same.’ (H. Grattan Guinness, The Approaching End of the Age, pg. 105)

#17 Stephen

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 11:01 PM

- What has happened to the sea beast by the end of this sixth trumpet?


BTW, this question is interesting, just because you can sit through a lecture and kindof sortof understand, but when you walk through the passages yourself, they become alive.

11:7 When they have completed their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will make war on them (the witnesses) and conquer them and kill them.


The 6th trumpet doesn't give any more details about what happens to the beast.

If you take Rev 12-13 as an expansion of 11:1-14, then we see that the beast gets worshipped, gets mortally wounded, doesn't die, and then given life by a second beast that comes from the earth, where the people were that the witnesses were tormenting.

Presumably his power runs out as his time is limited and he tansforms himself into another beast.
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#18 Unbound68

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 03:26 AM

Just out of curiosity, what is your take on those? What did they mean and when did it take place?




Short answer:

1) Beast from the sea=Papacy
2) Beast from the earth=Jesuits, monks, etc.
3) Locusts=Turks
4) Fallen star=Pope
5) Mystery Babylon=Catholic Church
6) The 2 Witnesses=saints protesting against the Pope and his church through the ages


I'm not firm on #2, especially after reading Fortigurn's 2nd, Revelation 12 reference post, wherein he talks of the Dragon of chap 12 and the Beasts of chaps 13 and 17 being different forms of the same entity - the Roman Empire. I'm not quite sure about #3 either. I keep going back and forth with the either the Turks being the fulfillment, or the Jesuits, monks, friars, etc. being the fulfillment.
‘Any system of interpretation that violates this fundamental law of the book is thereby stamped as erroneous. The system that says: "Babylon means Babylon; and the literal ancient Babylon, will, we are bound to believe, be revived," must be false. In the Apocalypse, Babylon does not mean Babylon, nor Jerusalem Jerusalem, nor a Jew a Jew, nor the temple the temple ; the system therefore that says "all this Jewish imagery proves that the book has reference to the future of the Jewish nation, and not to the future of the church," must be false. All this Jewish imagery is symbolic; these things are used as signs. Everything connected with Israel was typical of things connected with the church. The things signified must therefore be Christian, otherwise the sign and the thing signified, would be one and the same.’ (H. Grattan Guinness, The Approaching End of the Age, pg. 105)

#19 nsr

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 08:17 AM

Thanks. If you are interested in reading the previous 5 instalments of my Bible class series on Revelation, you can find them here.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#20 Stephen

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:32 PM

- What does it mean that the angel puts one foot in the sea and the other on the land?


I had never really thought about what the heaven, sea, and earth symbols mean and what happens to them throughout the course of Rev., but each of these symbols all have an interesting story to tell.

10:2 He held in his hand a little scroll that was open, and he put his right foot on the sea and his left on the land.

10:5 Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven.


Curiously the NET translates this word as land. I think the symbol would better be rendered earth as it is almost everywhere else in Rev. (Strongs Number 1093)

The order of events is the angels work will begin with the sea, then with the land, then with the seven thunders, and lastly with heaven and his oath. Then he feeds John the scroll.

Since the work of the sea and the land is not described, we are left to look elsewhere. The work with the thunders is intentionally supressed.


Further note: Historical uses for the right foot are: blood was placed on the big toe for the attonement offering and for priest's consecrations. (probably not applicable)
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#21 nsr

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 03:49 PM

Mercia, I've moved your posts to the other thread where you are already discussing Revelation. Can you try and restrict yourself to only posting in that one. Thanks.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#22 Stephen

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:11 PM

- Why is he told to measure the temple and the altar and those who worship in it?


By inference from the next verse, we can assume that the temple and the altar belongs to to God and/or those who belong to God. This is confirmed in Ezekiel 42 and 44, the holy people were in the temple and the priests had to change garments to leave to go see the people in the outer court so they did not transmit holiness to those people.

- Why does he have to leave out the outer court, and what does it symbolise?


He leave out the outer court because it belongs to the Gentiles. The outer court symbolizes where the people are per Ezekiel

- What does the 1260 days/42 months mean?


While 1260 days = 42 months computationally, they appear to apply to two different groups.

1260 days are called out twice, once with the witnesses and once with the woman who fled the dragon into the wilderness (12:6)

The 42 months appears with the Gentiles that trample the outer court and with the beast of the sea. (13:5)

Days of course are years per Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy.
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#23 Stephen

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 05:39 PM

- What is the great city?


The "great city" (polis, strong's 4172) is a new character/location in Revelation (as opposed to the "Holy City" which was introduced in verse 2). The great city symbolically called Sodom and Egypt where the Lord was crucified. This would initially indicate Jerusalem. However that doesn't fit as Jerusalem has never made all the nations drink of the wine of her immoral passion (14:8) and was historically sacked by the time this was written. However, if you interpret the great city to be the same great city in 17:18 then we have a match:

17:18 As for the woman you saw, she is the great city that has sovereignty over the kings of the earth.” (definitely not Jerusalem)

As she is one with "whom the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality and the earth’s inhabitants got drunk with the wine of her immorality.”(17:2). The seven heads being seven mountains is another indicator of this great city. This great city is the area whose kings answer to Rome.


Probably ahead of schedule, this city is the great prostitute that sits on many waters (17:1-2). Then we get a curious verse:

17:15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw (where the prostitute is seated) are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages.

This great city sits on the people that John was prophecying to.........


- What is the great earthquake?


The symbol would indicate that the people of the earth whom the witnesses were tormenting would be shaken (as opposed to the people of the sea or heaven) by the resurrection and ascention of the two witnesses.

There are 5 earthquakes mentioned in Rev, (6th seal, 7th seal, the one here 11:13, 11:19, 7th bowl). It does not appear to be the same earthquake as the 7th bowl because the first bowl is poured on those who worship the image of the beast setting the timeframe. The earthquake mentioned in 11:19 may be the same as the 7th bowl however. It is also not a literal earthquake like King Uzziah (Zech 14, Amos 1), nor in the olivet prophecy as that earthquake is surrounded by literal events.

In context, the two witnesses were killed and the people of the earth rejoiced. Later the witnesses stood again, they were called up to heaven, and went up while the people of the earth whom they tormented watched and there was a great earthquake. Then a tenth of the city collapsed (the KJV has "the tenth" which I think is more correct as it is a different word than "a tenth").

The symbol would indicate that "THE tenth" part of area where the 10 horns are ruled by Rome would have mass civil unrest. All of the people (heaven, earth, sea as no differention is made) would be terrified. And there would be alot of bloodshed due to this unrest.

Edited by Stephen, 02 May 2011 - 06:10 PM.

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#24 Stephen

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 02:24 AM

- Why are those who dwell on the earth celebrating over the death of the witnesses?


Because their tormenter is gone. The witnesses who dressed in sackcloth presumably are priests from the temple who had to change clothes before leaving, lest they transmit holiness to the people in the outer court, were wearing sackcloth (Eze 42:14).

The witnesses vexed the people of the earth and the source of vexation is no longer alive.

Why do they not allow them to be buried?


The "why" is not stated that I can find. My guess is so they will continue to bear witness. Note those who look at the corpses are the same people John is giving this prophecy to.

- What does it mean that the two witnesses “tormented” those who dwell on the earth?


You could possibly link this to the Rich man and Lazarus, knowing of course that the Rich man is Caiaphas and by extension the Priesthood, where the poor beggar with faith while alive had a rough time, but found favor with God, but the religious rulership did not. The mere existence of Lazarus was a sore spot for the religious leadership and they wanted to kill him (John 12) (this is a tenuous thought that could be deveoped or discarded)

The word torment means:
-to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind)
-to be harassed, distressed

This would be the same things the locusts were doing in 9:5. These witnesses were not granted the power to destroy the people of the earth, or even the beast, but existed as the God's witness to the people of the earth.

- What does it mean that the witnesses are raised back to life and appear to go to heaven?


Heaven being interpreted from the dream of Joseph as indicative of earthly powers rather than literal heaven. The religious movements and governmental movements (from Zech 4) that were squashed by the beast, suddenly came back, and then rose to power.

- Is there a distinction between the witnesses’ fire power, and their powers over drought and water? They appear to be described separately.


It would seem so, they have the universal power of fire out of their mouth. Fire from the mouth has only one other instance, the horses in chapter 9. Presumably a war making power.

The other three powers seemed to correspond to the groups of people found in Revelation, one power for heaven, one power for the earth, and one power for the sea.
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#25 Stephen

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 03:42 AM

- Why has the Kingdom (apparently) come again?


There is an unmistakable similarity between the last part of 11:19 and the 7th bowl (16:16-21) which is after the battle of Armageddon. My guess is that this verse ties the endpoints of the two prophecies together and that the heaven and earth mentioned is symbolic.

If they are the symbolic heaven, then it appears there is a reformation of the power structures. The power structure that brought us the beast from the abyss would be done away with, and a new power structure that includes the witnesses would replace it. This would be the beginning of the great takeover by Jesus.

-The nations rage
-God's servants are rewarded
-Judgement is waged on those who destroy (depraved) the symbolic earth.


- Why are the two witnesses symbolised as two olive trees and lampstands? Lampstands are elsewhere symbols of an ecclesia.


Probably already touched upon, but if the 7 churches are ages in church history, the lampstands would indicate periods of time.

- What is the beast that comes up out of the abyss? Why does it make war with and overcome them?


The abyss is a location first mentioned with the 5th trumpet that the locusts ascended out of. I would like there to be a connection. However, the scriptures indicate that the abyss in chapter 9 is in proximity to the Euphrates river and with clues later provided in Rev 17, we can determine that the beast from the Abyss is the kingdom governed by Rome.

This beast is the beast that was, and is not, but will exist again.

The beast is something that the kings voluntarily give their power to in Rev 17. The previous mention of beasts by Daniel indicate that they are kingdoms, so in Rev 17 it is a group of kingdoms.

- Why is “the great city” called Sodom and Egypt?


Sodom and Egypt would be fitting symbols. From Genesis 13:13 we get the people of Sodom were extremely wicked rebels against the Lord and is applied to Jerusalem in Isaiah 1. It was a place that Lot's wife wanted to go back to when being drug out. Which of course we see. Egypt is also symbolically the place where God's people were in bondage and had to be led out by God. In similarity to Sodom, some Jews wanted to go back to during their Exodus.

This may not apply to first century Rome, but 4th century Rome onward, this would apply.



I think that is all of the questions.
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#26 Biblaridion

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 04:33 AM

Dear all,

You might find the following resources helpful (see attached)

I will also send something that I have done on Rev chapter 11 but it is rather large so I will need to split the document.

Regards in Christ,

Paul

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#27 Biblaridion

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 04:41 AM

Hello All,

Here goes an attempt at attaching a file on Rev.11 that I did some time back.


Paul

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#28 Biblaridion

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 04:53 AM

Dear All,

I have just completed a commentary on Daniel that examines the centrality of Temple and Atonement theology to the book of Daniel and how this thematic was applied by the NT writers. To put it simply......Jesus is the replacement of the Second Temple and together with the saints Jesus will form the "New Jerusalem" a city-temple built out of people. Daniel looked forward to a Jubilee Atonement and the restoration of Temple worship....I demonstrate in my commentary that John the Baptist was born on "lights" (but he was not that lamp)because he was the forerunner who had come to dedicate a new temple. The confirmation of the New Temple (Jesus) and New Covenant required the removal of the "Old Temple" and this happened in AD 70. The book of Revelation is full of temple idiom and references to all the temple feasts. Revelation 11 speaks of a witnessing that results in the measuring of a temple and the witnesses are "lampstands".....this is all connected with the feast of Dedication otherwise known as "Lights" or Hanukkah. I refer to my commentary as I cannot do justice to the subject here.

Biblaridion


regards,

Paul

#29 nsr

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 08:51 AM

I think that is all of the questions.


Thanks very much Stephen :P. I've gone through each of them myself now, and jotted down some notes, ideas and further questions. I'll try to post these when I get a chance.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)

#30 nsr

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 08:52 AM

Hi Paul,

Nice to have you on the forum. Am I right in thinking that you're the other half of the Christadelphian eJournal?

:P
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Heb 12:22-23)




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