25 replies to this topic

[Mercia2]

Disagraceful scenes as a Japanese nuclear reactor seems to have just exploded in the last few minutes while governments in bed with the nuclear power industrry largely ran by the French, using gullible global warming activists to plan over 500 new reactors world wide in the coming 10 years.

At the 40th UN General Asseembly the president of Belarus who was in charge of nuclear proliferation with Hans Blix read out Revelation chapter 8 to all the worlds leaders stating in his language Wormwood trandlated Chornobyl and stated "who could deny this is not a warning from God in our time", NOW WE HAVE ANOTHER ONE.

Disgusting their is no Christian activism against this planned EU madness. Who will defend Gods earth? Earthquaes are beyond our control, the people of Japan and New Zealand should move elsewhere. Nuclear proliferation is within our control.

Shame on us all.


.

Edited by Mercia2, 12 March 2011 - 09:08 AM.

[Kakashi]

Are you aware that New Zealand banned nuclear energy years ago? Damaging earthquakes happen here much less often than hurricanes cause destruction in the USA, and natural disasters happen everywhere. The last earthquake was fairly bad, but no reason to transplant an entire country. Seriously? No idea why I'm posting, I'm afraid. National pride, perhaps Kiwis aren't unusually foolish, we take calculated risks.

As for nuclear power, I see no objection if it's well managed. Technologies aren't evil, people are evil and lazy. The Japanese reactor isn't gone, only damaged. It's too soon to make anything out of this at all, though the media is doing it's darnedest with its warnings, and it looks like you are too. Sigh.

[Simon-Ben-Zion]

All this is just a small sign of the end times

[Kakashi]

If you like. I tend to think that "such things will come but the end is not yet".

[Mercia2]

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Damaging earthquakes happen here much less often than hurricanes cause destruction in the USA, and natural disasters happen everywhere. The last earthquake was fairly bad, but no reason to transplant an entire country. Seriously? No idea why I'm posting, I'm afraid. National pride, perhaps Kiwis aren't unusually foolish, we take calculated risks.

If the kingdom of God is to be on earth then Christ will have to either fix technonic plates or move you all from severe fault lines. In my opinion it is irresponsible to settle on or around major fault lines. You can all move to blighty.

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As for nuclear power, I see no objection if it's well managed. Technologies aren't evil, people are evil and lazy. The Japanese reactor isn't gone, only damaged. It's too soon to make anything out of this at all, though the media is doing it's darnedest with its warnings, and it looks like you are too. Sigh.

Yes well you and everyone else says the same thing these days. You all have an incredible faith in man? You said if managed properly, so what caused the BP oil disaster a few months ago? Infact what caused Cheronobyl? If managed properly that should never have happened, human falibility and the love of money, or the love of saving money by cutting corners on safety, if you believe 500 new reactors will result in nothing ever going wrong then you do not understand human nature and the law of unintended consequences IMO. And if these are not fusion reactors where will you put the waste? Outer space? And how many rockets ommitting CO2 do we need to shoot into space weekly to dispose of the waste of 500 new proposed reactors?

Edited by Mercia2, 13 March 2011 - 07:48 AM.

[Mercia2]

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All this is just a small sign of the end times

We are in the general time of the end I believe, but these major quakes seem to come in clusters when the moon is closest to the earth if you look into it, a similar patten as the early 1950s.

[Mercia2]

This forum seems to be shrinking?

[Mercia2]

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As for nuclear power, I see no objection if it's well managed. ......The Japanese reactor isn't gone, only damaged.

Japan was prepared for earthquakes, including the big one, they said this couldnt happen, but it happened, the emergency back up failed. If managed properly Chernobyl would never have happened.

[Simon-Ben-Zion]

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If the kingdom of God is to be on earth then Christ will have to either fix technonic plates or move you all from severe fault lines

He will fix it

[Simon-Ben-Zion]

Kakashi, on 12 March 2011 - 08:00 PM, said:

If you like. I tend to think that "such things will come but the end is not yet".

not until 2020 2034, or 2060

[Kakashi]

Mercia2, on 12 March 2011 - 09:19 PM, said:

If the kingdom of God is to be on earth then Christ will have to either fix technonic plates or move you all from severe fault lines. In my opinion it is irresponsible to settle on or around major fault lines. You can all move to blighty.

Christ has plenty of options for making the world a safe place. When he comes, no doubt we'll find out what he decides. You're welcome to your opinion in the meantime

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As for nuclear power, I see no objection if it's well managed. Technologies aren't evil, people are evil and lazy. The Japanese reactor isn't gone, only damaged. It's too soon to make anything out of this at all, though the media is doing it's darnedest with its warnings, and it looks like you are too. Sigh.

Yes well you and everyone else says the same thing these days. You all have an incredible faith in man? You said if managed properly, so what caused the BP oil disaster a few months ago? Infact what caused Cheronobyl? If managed properly that should never have happened, human falibility and the love of money, or the love of saving money by cutting corners on safety, if you believe 500 new reactors will result in nothing ever going wrong then you do not understand human nature and the law of unintended consequences IMO. And if these are not fusion reactors where will you put the waste? Outer space? And how many rockets ommitting CO2 do we need to shoot into space weekly to dispose of the waste of 500 new proposed reactors?

I have little faith in man. People are evil, lazy and greedy. We also have a tendency to make a mess of the environment. I don't object to your environmental message, just to it's alarmist decoration. This is an interesting read: http://www.oecd-nea....aring-risks.pdf

There are almost 500 reactors in operation this year, some of them old designs without the benefit of recent safety features. Yet we haven't had all that many nuclear accidents yet. It looks very much like the risks are worth taking.

Since we're just trading opinions, I'll bow out of this discussion now.

[Mercia2]

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There are almost 500 reactors in operation this year, some of them old designs without the benefit of recent safety features. Yet we haven't had all that many nuclear accidents yet. It looks very much like the risks are worth taking.

It is not just a safety issue it is a pollution issue. But lets look at the Japanese example. Everybody, most especially the Japanese nuclear industry knew this earthquake was coming, they assured everyone the structure could absorb even the big one, that there was no chance of meltdown. Today they are saying they are battling to stop 3 out of the 4 reactors going into meltdown. They built nuclear reactors on a fault line! Does this demonstrate nuclear reactors could withstand are plane hit for example? Are you aware that Al Quida at first were said to have planned to fly planes into U.S nuclear reactors instead of the WTC? Also, as far as I can tell it is just luck the most seriously damaged reactor has not yet gone into full meltdown as it just so happened it was not a Plutonium reactor.

[Mercia2]

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There are almost 500 reactors in operation this year

With another 500 more planned over the coming decade.
Absolute evil.

[Mercia2]

Chernobly killed millions, some say over 19 million with massivly increased cancer deaths all over Europe in the last 20 years. Both my grandparents died of Lukemia, both were with me in 1982 at the papal mass when an angel told me that wormwood was Chernobly (Rev 8:10). Why pick me? I believe Chernobyl killed both of them, in Coventry, 8 years later.

[Mercia2]

And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

This is from a transcript entitled:

General Assembly Forty-fifth session Excerpts from the provisional verbatim record of the thirty-second meeting held at Headquarters, New York on Tuesday, 23 October 1990, at 10 a.m.

This document appears on the United Nations website at http://www.un.org/ha...obyl/45pv32.htm

The following remarks were made by Mr. Kravchanka (Byelorussian SSR ) (interpretation from Russian):

"In Slavic languages, including the Ukrainian and Byelorussian languages, there is a word 'chernobyl', which means wormwood, bitter grass. This has striking relevance to the Chernobyl tragedy. I am no fatalist. I do not believe in the blind inevitability of fate, but who can fail to be moved by these tragic and elegiac words from Revelation, which must leave their indelible imprint on the heart:

'... and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of water;

And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.' (The Holy Bible, Revelation 8:10-11)

"At the end of the twentieth century the human intellect—educated in rationalism, in faith, in the creative power of science and knowledge—refuses to accept that those words may prove prophetic and fateful for the Byelorussian people. To prevent Chernobyl from becoming an irreversible tragedy for the Byelorussian people, we must immediately adopt a more comprehensive set of additional measures, particularly medical and biological measures. The reality is vastly different from the earlier estimates of Soviet and foreign experts. This has been demonstrated by reliable data concerning the deterioration in the health of our Republic's inhabitants.

...

"Today we wish to make one more proposal: to proclaim 26 April, the day when Chernobyl disaster occurred, as an international day for the prevention of nuclear and other industrial disasters. I wish to emphasize that the Parliaments Byelorussia and the Ukraine by special decrees have already proclaimed 26 April, the day of the Chernobyl tragedy, a day of mourning and remembrance."

[Mercia2]

And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

This is from a transcript entitled:

General Assembly Forty-fifth session Excerpts from the provisional verbatim record of the thirty-second meeting held at Headquarters, New York on Tuesday, 23 October 1990, at 10 a.m.

This document appears on the United Nations website at http://www.un.org/ha...obyl/45pv32.htm

The following remarks were made by Mr. Kravchanka (Byelorussian SSR ) (interpretation from Russian):

"In Slavic languages, including the Ukrainian and Byelorussian languages, there is a word 'chernobyl', which means wormwood, bitter grass. This has striking relevance to the Chernobyl tragedy. I am no fatalist. I do not believe in the blind inevitability of fate, but who can fail to be moved by these tragic and elegiac words from Revelation, which must leave their indelible imprint on the heart:

'... and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of water;

And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.' (The Holy Bible, Revelation 8:10-11)

"At the end of the twentieth century the human intellect—educated in rationalism, in faith, in the creative power of science and knowledge—refuses to accept that those words may prove prophetic and fateful for the Byelorussian people. To prevent Chernobyl from becoming an irreversible tragedy for the Byelorussian people, we must immediately adopt a more comprehensive set of additional measures, particularly medical and biological measures. The reality is vastly different from the earlier estimates of Soviet and foreign experts. This has been demonstrated by reliable data concerning the deterioration in the health of our Republic's inhabitants.

...

"Today we wish to make one more proposal: to proclaim 26 April, the day when Chernobyl disaster occurred, as an international day for the prevention of nuclear and other industrial disasters. I wish to emphasize that the Parliaments Byelorussia and the Ukraine by special decrees have already proclaimed 26 April, the day of the Chernobyl tragedy, a day of mourning and remembrance."

[daysha]

Mankind has shown himself to be a poor custodian of this beautiful creation.

Every time a person tosses used wrappers out of their car window they display contempt for God's creation.
They don't even care what God thinks. Let us eat, drink etc.

Let's not fall into their same malaise.

[Simon-Ben-Zion]

Stormy winds fulfilling his word
The place of weather and earthquakes in fulfilling prophecy

The work of the elements in fulfilling God’s purpose

Ps 148 7 ¶ Praise Yahweh, out of the earth, sea monsters, and all resounding deeps;
8 Fire and hail, snow and vapour, stormy wind, fulfilling his word;

Job 36:26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.
27 For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof:
28 Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly.
29 Also can any understand the spreadings of the clouds, or the noise of his tabernacle?
30 Behold, he spreadeth his light upon it, and covereth the bottom of the sea.
31 For by them judgeth he the people; he giveth meat in abundance.
32 With clouds he covereth the light; and commandeth it not to shine by the cloud that cometh betwixt.
33 The noise thereof sheweth concerning it, the cattle also concerning the vapour.

Job 37 5 God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.
6 ¶ For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength……
9 Out of the south cometh the whirlwind: and cold out of the north.
10 By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened.
11 Also by watering he wearieth the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud:
12 And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
13 He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy.

Yahweh himself endorses this when he intervenes in the debate

Job 38 22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

The prophet Nahum speaks of God working through both weather and earthquake to fulfil his purpose

3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. 4 He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth. 5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. 6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

So god uses climate and earthquakes to fulfil his purpose

In short-term god can achieve dramatic things by means of a sudden storm for example which might help to destroy an army Dan 4:17 4:25 Da 4:32 Da 4:34 Da 4:35 Da 2:21 Da 5:21 Ps 75:7 Ps 83:18 Jer 27:5
This is summarised in the phrase already quoted “stormy wind fulfilling his word”
When we read the words in job 37:12 Yea, the [clouds], in circles, turneth itself to and fro, by his steering them to their work, whithersoever he commandeth them, over the face of the world, towards the earth.
It means that god sometimes works out his purpose also by changes in climate in the long-term

Since Amoo3:7 My Lord Yahweh, will do, nothing,––except he have disclosed his secret unto his servants, the prophets! We find that these events are in fulfilment of the previously declard purpose of God

The famine in Egypt
The seven year famine which came upon Egypt was God’s means of fulfilling a prophecy which he made to Abraham some 200 years earlier in Gen 15:13 God had caused Joseph to be exalted to high favour in Egypt, and the famine had the effect of reuniting him with his brethren so that he could offer his family a home in Egypt.

Yahweh intervened in two ways one he must have stoped the Nile from flooding and secondly it is significant that the seven bad ears of corn seen by Pharaoh in his dream are described as blasted with the east wind (Gen 41:23 cp. Jer 4:11 Jonah 4:8 Ias 40:6-8) the sirocco or in Egypt, the Khamsin. It is a dry withering wind from the desert Deut 28:22 "scorching and with midew" scorching refers to the withering effect of the hot east wind from the desert, the word translated "mildew" is translated "pale" or "paleness" in Jer 30:6

03420 Nwqry yeraqown yay-raw-kone’
from 03418; n m; {See TWOT on 918 @@ "918d"}
AV-mildew 5, paleness 1; 6
1) mildew, paleness, lividness
1a) mildew, rust
1b) paleness

whether of persons (from fright), or of plants (from drought) 1 Kings 8:37 Am 4:9

[Kay]

Kakashi these comments are not directed at you, but the comment made I thought interesting and just a few thoughts I have been mulling over for the past few days - and now a flurry of posts :

Kakashi, on 12 March 2011 - 08:00 PM, said:

If you like. I tend to think that "such things will come but the end is not yet".

It seems that we are also hearing (not you) comments along the lines:

2 Peter 3:4 (NIV) They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

and in relation to events happening in the world, natural events.

This is a graphic from:

Trends in natural disasters. (2005).
In UNEP/GRID-Arendal Maps and Graphics Library.
Retrieved 03:34, March 21, 2011 from http://maps.grida.no...ural-disasters.
Cartographer/Designer Emmanuelle Bournay, UNEP/GRID-Arendal



Which shows up until the year 2000 the increase ... but with the increase, more on an exponential rise since the 1960's.

It would be interesting to look at the years from 2001 to 2011.

The comments made, and by several brethren now it would seem, as above, "everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation" ... but contrary to what is indicated - that natural disasters are now happening on a major scale.

Matthew 24 - two questions asked:

“Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

The destruction of Jerusalem and the coming of Jesus.

It seems the Chapter is answering both questions together or answering one, then the next but back to the first question.

Though it seems that the main context, and for the disciples of Christ is to "watch".

"6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains."

However, if it is the "beginning of birth pains" - when does this cease - for how long?

Are we in the beginning of the pains, the middle or seeing the near end of the birth pains?

According to the graph - it was the late 1960's when natural disasters began their real increase, almost it seems in line with Jerusalem being once again in the hands of the Jews - 1967 (is there a correlation - I just noticed this today when looking at the graphic again)- so not quite yet a Jubilee.

So, if the beginning, when does it end ... and from the devastation and enormous loss of life and suffering - in 2004 - wasn't it +200000 lost in Indonesia by the earthquake causing the Tsunami, then in the last Friday week, Japan.

Then the Middle East and the discontent there among the Arab world?

Does Matthew 24 have a bearing on events unfolding in the world today - or as some state - "everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation" ... to me indications are that we should watch and take note of the events around us even though we all feel momentous sadness at what is unfolding but not to forget:

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him".

[Kakashi]

Though I'm aware you weren't talking to me, Kay, I think I should clarify

My comment about "such things will come but the end is not yet" was that it seems to me Jesus meant "these things will happen, it's the natural order of things". All I'm saying is that perhaps natural disasters shouldn't make us more hopeful than usual, since Jesus seemed to only say they need to be endured.

I'm sorry, but I don't think the graph you brought up is very useful for this purpose. It's only talking about "reported" events, it's only since 1900, and the authors say there are factors they couldn't take into account. I'm guessing one of the biggest factors about 1967 was the widespread use of TV news, but it's only a guess.

It's easy to find data which says the number of big earthquakes isn't increasing. It's also easy to find data suggesting that famines, plagues and other disasters are often caused by human mismanagement. Who can say whether it's God's plan, or God letting us take the consequences of our actions, or both?

[Kay]

Hello Kakashi

Thought you would miss the point and go elsewhere with it, but the scriptures say that this would happen - so now you put it to media events and human mismanagement - HUGE earthquakes and tsunamis, and flooding and fire etcetera ... such is life.

The plans - well, the scriptures say this would happen - but several brethren seem to be dumbing it down, like so much else in the Bible.

What I find interesting is it is almost "hockey stick" - but if it was global warming ... well shout it from the roof tops - if the Bible says something ... well, it doesn't really mean what it means.

So, do you think we are in the latter days - or maybe Christ will return some day - but the Bible really doesn't mean that there will be any signs, no-one is warned, no-one is to "watch" or take note of various situations which will happen and build before Jesus' return?

There are various "jolts" along the way - and especially to re-direct focus, what our hope is - and to "watch".

BTW - the graph is taken from:

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GRID-Arendal

which is

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a collaborating centre of the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP).

not from an "end-times" website.

[Kakashi]

Kay I apologise in advance for missing your point and going elsewhere with it. Scripture does say disasters will happen. The only thing you and I disagree on is what disasters mean when they do.

The way I read Matthew 24, Jesus tells the disciples a whole bunch of general things which will happen. He starts by saying "Watch out that no one misleads you", and reinforces that in verse 8: "All these things are the beginning of birth pains." He continues speaking generally, still talking about being deceived, until verse 14. Then there's this important phrase: "Then the end will come."

The way I read this passage, the first reliable sign we have that Christ is coming is verse 15. "The abomination of desolation — spoken about by Daniel the prophet — standing in the holy place." Interestingly, this seems to require a holy place in Jerusalem. But all the way through this chapter, Jesus is making sure his disciples aren't bothered by portentous-seeming events. Those kinds of events are too vague to be useful, because they happen all the time. So he gave a couple of awesome ones, the abomination (whatever that will be) and this "great suffering unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen."

Unless I die first, I don't expect to see Jesus coming until there's a temple in Jerusalem offering sacrifices again. That's a pretty specific sign, isn't it? Have I dumbed scripture down, reading it this way?


Actually, I was impressed by the graph It's a good graph. It just doesn't strictly speaking show what you want it to, given it's self-professed limitations. What it shows is a scary increase in reported disasters, which might coincide with actual increased numbers of disasters or might not. Have you got other data? Do you think Jesus meant that as the time grew closer more people would die in disasters, or that more disasters would happen, or both? How do you know which it is?

I think my reading of Matthew 24 has to answer fewer questions and makes more useful, specific predictions. But time will tell, right?

[Kay]

Kakashi, on 21 March 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

Kay I apologise in advance for missing your point and going elsewhere with it. Scripture does say disasters will happen. The only thing you and I disagree on is what disasters mean when they do.

Not a problem - I meant to get back to you on this sooner rather than later.

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The way I read Matthew 24, Jesus tells the disciples a whole bunch of general things which will happen. He starts by saying "Watch out that no one misleads you", and reinforces that in verse 8: "All these things are the beginning of birth pains." He continues speaking generally, still talking about being deceived, until verse 14. Then there's this important phrase: "Then the end will come."

Yes, agree

The general things and the conversation tends to move back and forth between the two questions - When will the end of all things come and the the Temple and the stones - when they would be cast down.

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The way I read this passage, the first reliable sign we have that Christ is coming is verse 15. "The abomination of desolation — spoken about by Daniel the prophet — standing in the holy place." Interestingly, this seems to require a holy place in Jerusalem. But all the way through this chapter, Jesus is making sure his disciples aren't bothered by portentous-seeming events. Those kinds of events are too vague to be useful, because they happen all the time. So he gave a couple of awesome ones, the abomination (whatever that will be) and this "great suffering unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen."

The "abomination of desolation" - from Wiki:

Etymology

In both Biblical and rabbinical Hebrew abomination is a familiar term for an idol[3], and therefore may well have the same application in Daniel, which should accordingly be rendered, in agreement with Ezra, ix. 3, 4, "motionless abomination" or, also, "appalling abomination." The suggestion of many scholars—Hoffmann, Nestle, Bevan, and others—that, as a designation for Jupiter it is simply an intentional perversion of his usual appellation "Baal Shamem" ("lord of heaven"), is quite plausible, as is attested by the perversion of Beelzebub into "Βεελζεβούλ" (Greek version) in Mark, iii. 22, as well as the express injunction found in Tosef., 'Ab. Zarah, vi. (vii) and Babli 'Ab. Zarah, 46a, that the names of idols may be pronounced only in a distorted or abbreviated form (see the examples quoted there).

http://en.wikipedia....n_of_Desolation

And from the Jewish Encyclopaedia:

— In Rabbinical Literature:

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An expression occurring in Matt. xxiv. 15 and Mark, xiii. 14 (A. V.), where the Greek text has τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς έρημώσεως. The Greek itself, however, is referable to a Hebrew expression, , found in Dan. ix. 27 (where the ם of has been added, through a copyist's error, from the מ of the ensuing word); in Dan. xi. 31, and in Dan. xii. 11 (with omission of the prefixed מ).

The context of these passages leaves no room for doubt as to what was intended by this somewhat odd expression; namely, the transformation, by Antiochus Epiphanes, of the sacred Temple at Jerusalem into a heathen one. In both Biblical and rabbinical Hebrew abomination is a familiar term for an idol (I Kings, xi. 5; II Kings, xxiii. 13; Sifra, Ḳedoshim, beginning, and Mekilta, Mishpatim, xx. ed. Weiss, 107), and therefore may well have the same application in Daniel, which should accordingly be rendered, in agreement with Ezra, ix. 3, 4, "motionless abomination" or, also, "appalling abomination." The suggestion of many scholars-Hoffmann, Nestle, Bevan, and others—that , as a designation for Jupiter is simply an intentional perversion of his usual appellation "Baal Shamem" (, "lord of heaven") is quite plausible, as is attested by the perversion of "Beelzebub" into "Βεελζεβούλ" (Greek version) in Mark, iii. 22, as well as the express injunction found in Tosef., 'Ab. Zarah, vi. (vii) and Babli 'Ab. Zarah, 46a, that the names of idols may be pronounced only in a distorted or abbreviated form (see the examples quoted there). Though the expression "Abomination of Desolation" is accordingly recognizedin the light of this interpretation as a mistranslation of the phrase used in Daniel, there is no doubt that in the circles directly influenced by the Book of Daniel—the same circles that originated the apocalyptic literature—the expression was employed to designate an important eschatological conception. For it is only in an eschatological sense that the expression can be adequately explained in the New Testament passages above mentioned.

According to most modern commentators, these passages are a Jewish apocalypse, somewhat tinged with Christianity, intended to prophesy the end of time, when the Antichrist, as the Abomination of Desolation, shall be enthroned as a ruler in God's Temple. The closely related "smaller Apocalypse" in II Thess. ii. 1-12 is a conclusive justification of this view; for it shows that neither the Romans (as Weiss in his commentary, ad loc., holds), nor the Zealots (Bleek, "Synoptische Erklärung," and others), nor Caligula with his self-deification (Spitta, in his "Offenbarung Johannis") can be intended.

Read more: http://www.jewishenc...A#ixzz1IEtYOajv

Standing on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem today is The Dome of the Rock.

Is this what the words are about?

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Unless I die first, I don't expect to see Jesus coming until there's a temple in Jerusalem offering sacrifices again. That's a pretty specific sign, isn't it? Have I dumbed scripture down, reading it this way?

I don't think there is any measure of the mention of offering of sacrifices or the need of such to again become a custom before the advent of our Lord - it would be regarded even in today's society as abhorrent.

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Actually, I was impressed by the graph It's a good graph. It just doesn't strictly speaking show what you want it to, given it's self-professed limitations. What it shows is a scary increase in reported disasters, which might coincide with actual increased numbers of disasters or might not. Have you got other data? Do you think Jesus meant that as the time grew closer more people would die in disasters, or that more disasters would happen, or both? How do you know which it is?

As mentioned, I thought it of interest that the rise commenced shortly after 1967 - when Jerusalem was again in the hands of the Jewish people.

Christadelphians (as you probably know so I am just repeating the obvious!) that when Jerusalem was again in the hands of the Jews - Luke 21:24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

So, the occurrence - the times are fulfilled it would now seem.

Jesus also says, Matthew 24:8 "these are the beginning of birth pains."

It does seem that there are jumps back and forth - both questions, the answers seem to be intermingled in the sense that one is not answered then the other.

But in the instance of the "beginning of birth pains" - it is like a crescendo, a build up of events, though as with the birth pains - a contraction - and then build up - the contractions then become more frequent and increase in intensity until the birth, so one would expect and increase in the area of natural disasters in the World as the Bible describes.

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I think my reading of Matthew 24 has to answer fewer questions and makes more useful, specific predictions. But time will tell, right?

Perhaps we are so engrossed in many things and opinions and media saturation - whether we take note.

I know that you know Jesus is returning as we all do - but these days there seems to be less enthusiasm for many significant events ... they come and go seems to be the general belief, which of course they do come and go - but we are told continually to "watch".

Luke 12:37-39 "Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through."

What are we to "watch" if all things are as they have always been and always will be?

[Kay]

Someone mentioned that the Japanese Quake happened 12 months to the day of Japan making this statement, March 11, 2010:

• The Government of Japan deplores the decisions of the Government of Israel to give permission for the construction of 1,600 housing units in East Jerusalem in addition to 112 units in West Bank just after the Israeli and Palestinian leadership’s acceptance of the start of indirect talks. The Government of Japan does not recognize any act that prejudges the final status of Jerusalem and the territories in the pre-1967 borders. Japan demands that the plans should not be implemented.
  
  
• The Government of Japan continues to request strongly that both parties will act in a way that enhances mutual confidence. Japan sincerely hopes that the indirect talks in the peace process will swiftly develop into the resumption of direct talks between the two parties.

http://www.mofa.go.j.../3/0311_01.html

That beside the point of Japan being on the major pacific fault ...

I also came across these images ... it is really incomprehensible what happened to Japan only last month:

From ABC News (Australia)

The Images - hover over the images to give you a before and after (three pages):

http://www.abc.net.a...beforeafter.htm

[Jon D]

The 'abomination of desolation' is explained in Luke as being the Roman armies compassing Jerusalem.

[Kay]

Jon D, on 06 April 2011 - 09:00 AM, said:

The 'abomination of desolation' is explained in Luke as being the Roman armies compassing Jerusalem.

Jon D - Just some of my thoughts ...

I guess that is what I always understood it to be ... but over the past number of years just looking at different aspects.

Even with Luke it all seems to be intertwined.

Back to the past number of years - and the eagles - whether it is just solely the "Roman Armies" ... have you seen how many of the World's nations have the eagle as an emblem ... some a double headed ... some single - who have the double headed eagles and those single?

Just find it an interesting topic, and especially when nations will be drawn into battle in the Valley of Hinnom - which we know is just south of Jerusalem.

Are the several fulfilments in the words - two already passed, one in the future?