Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Baptism in Romans


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 luke

luke

    Tau

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,175 posts

Posted 27 January 2011 - 06:56 PM

It seems to me that the topic of baptism appears suddenly, out of the blue, in chapter 6 of Paul's letter to the Romans.

Have I missed any hints before in the letter?

Are the references based, not so much on anything Paul's written before this point in the letter, but more on the Christians' experience -- it's taken for granted that it's the start of becoming a Christian, so it's legitimate for Paul to mention it out of the blue?

#2 Richie

Richie

    Chi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,355 posts

Posted 27 January 2011 - 07:46 PM

Well he's established the doctrine of salvation and now he's showing how the believer can participate in it. First step is the faith's response in baptism.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#3 Mercia2

Mercia2

    Chi

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,442 posts

Posted 03 February 2011 - 02:37 AM

the ritual of water baptism does not save
Repenting alone and asking for the Holy Spirit does
"and will smite every HORSE OF THE PEOPLE with blindness"

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_symbolic_meaning_of_a_horse#ixzz1K0LLUt00

#4 Mercia2

Mercia2

    Chi

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,442 posts

Posted 03 February 2011 - 02:38 AM

Hardly surprising all organised religion focus' on the wrong one
"and will smite every HORSE OF THE PEOPLE with blindness"

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_symbolic_meaning_of_a_horse#ixzz1K0LLUt00

#5 Fortigurn

Fortigurn

    Omega

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,244 posts

Posted 03 February 2011 - 03:10 AM

It seems to me that the topic of baptism appears suddenly, out of the blue, in chapter 6 of Paul's letter to the Romans.

Have I missed any hints before in the letter?

Are the references based, not so much on anything Paul's written before this point in the letter, but more on the Christians' experience -- it's taken for granted that it's the start of becoming a Christian, so it's legitimate for Paul to mention it out of the blue?


It's critical to answering the question he raises in verse 1, a question prompted by 5:20-21.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/htm/beliefs/basf.htm" target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
http://bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">Apologetics

#6 fellowheir

fellowheir

    Alpha

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 18 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:17 PM

It seems to me that the topic of baptism appears suddenly, out of the blue, in chapter 6 of Paul's letter to the Romans.

Have I missed any hints before in the letter?

Are the references based, not so much on anything Paul's written before this point in the letter, but more on the Christians' experience -- it's taken for granted that it's the start of becoming a Christian, so it's legitimate for Paul to mention it out of the blue?

Hi,

It is not water.

It is baptism by one Spirit into one body.

1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

It is baptism (identification) into Jesus Christ's death.

Romans 6:3-4 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It is the ONE baptism of Ephesians 4

Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It is one of the seven fold unity of the Spirit (listed above) that we are to endevour to keep.

Ephesians 4:1-3 KJV I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

#7 fellowheir

fellowheir

    Alpha

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 18 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:21 PM

Well he's established the doctrine of salvation and now he's showing how the believer can participate in it. First step is the faith's response in baptism.

Hi,

No, men desire others to make a fair shew in the flesh constraining them to be water baptized that they might glory in their flesh

Galatians 6:12-13 KJV As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Edited by fellowheir, 26 April 2012 - 03:21 PM.


#8 Richie

Richie

    Chi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,355 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:21 PM

But it is done by immersion in water "fellowheir" which is obvious from reading the Acts of the Apostles.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#9 Richie

Richie

    Chi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,355 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:22 PM


Well he's established the doctrine of salvation and now he's showing how the believer can participate in it. First step is the faith's response in baptism.

Hi,

No, men desire you to make a fair shew in the flesh constraining others to be water baptized that they might glory in their flesh

Galatians 6:12-13 KJV As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.


Wrong. That's talking about circumcision, not baptism. Baptism is not making a show in the flesh; baptism is making a public statement about one's faith in Christ Jesus.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#10 fellowheir

fellowheir

    Alpha

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 18 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:25 PM

the ritual of water baptism does not save
Repenting alone and asking for the Holy Spirit does

No, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved! Believe how that Christ died for your sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

It is the gospel of Christ and IT is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth Romans 1:16

When you do, the Holy Spirit baptizes you into the one body. 1 Corinthians 12:13

#11 fellowheir

fellowheir

    Alpha

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 18 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:39 PM

But it is done by immersion in water "fellowheir" which is obvious from reading the Acts of the Apostles.

If you are speaking of Acts 2:38, that's a different baptism (not to mention a different gospel) than that of the baptism BY the one Spirit and it is not TO anyone livinig in this age.

Peter preached a murder indictment to ALL the house of Israel. For the scripture saith:

Acts 2:36-38 KJV Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:41 KJV Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

They (all the house of Israel-every one of them) were to repent (change their mind) about WHO Jesus Christ was and be identified (water baptized) for the REMISSION of sins, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

WHO was the baptizer?

Edited by fellowheir, 26 April 2012 - 03:40 PM.


#12 fellowheir

fellowheir

    Alpha

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 18 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:41 PM



Well he's established the doctrine of salvation and now he's showing how the believer can participate in it. First step is the faith's response in baptism.

Hi,

No, men desire you to make a fair shew in the flesh constraining others to be water baptized that they might glory in their flesh

Galatians 6:12-13 KJV As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.


Wrong. That's talking about circumcision, not baptism. Baptism is not making a show in the flesh; baptism is making a public statement about one's faith in Christ Jesus.

Yes, the Galatians were being constrained to be circumcized just as today men constrain others to be water baptized. The why is the same~that they may glory in your flesh.

#13 Richie

Richie

    Chi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,355 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:45 PM


But it is done by immersion in water "fellowheir" which is obvious from reading the Acts of the Apostles.

If you are speaking of Acts 2:38, that's a different baptism (not to mention a different gospel) than that of the baptism BY the one Spirit and it is not TO anyone livinig in this age.


A different gospel? What are you talking about?

I was referring to passages like Acts 8, actually, where the eunuch is baptized in water. Also see 1 Peter 3 for example.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#14 Richie

Richie

    Chi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,355 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:47 PM




Well he's established the doctrine of salvation and now he's showing how the believer can participate in it. First step is the faith's response in baptism.

Hi,

No, men desire you to make a fair shew in the flesh constraining others to be water baptized that they might glory in their flesh

Galatians 6:12-13 KJV As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.


Wrong. That's talking about circumcision, not baptism. Baptism is not making a show in the flesh; baptism is making a public statement about one's faith in Christ Jesus.

Yes, the Galatians were being constrained to be circumcized just as today men constrain others to be water baptized. The why is the same~that they may glory in your flesh.


Who is contraining anyone to be water baptized? It is a choice whether one gets baptized or not. And it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with glorying in the flesh. In fact it's the exact opposite! Water baptism, also known as biblical baptism, is a repudiation of the flesh as the old man is buried in the water.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#15 fellowheir

fellowheir

    Alpha

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 18 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 04:06 PM



But it is done by immersion in water "fellowheir" which is obvious from reading the Acts of the Apostles.

If you are speaking of Acts 2:38, that's a different baptism (not to mention a different gospel) than that of the baptism BY the one Spirit and it is not TO anyone livinig in this age.


A different gospel? What are you talking about?

You believe there was only one gospel in the Bible?

demonstration; there are two gospels in just this one verse alone

Galatians 2:7 KJV But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

I was referring to passages like Acts 8, actually, where the eunuch is baptized in water. Also see 1 Peter 3 for example.

Neither have anything to do with the baptism BY one Spirit into one body.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:27-28 KJV For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Neither male nor female? I don't see anyone comong up out of the water neither male nor female. It is a baptism (identification) into Christ's death (Romans 6), baptized into Christ. It is BY one Spirit into one body. It cannot be accomplished by water.

You cannot just put water in everytime you see the word baptism. There is more than one baptism in the Bible too.

demonstration:

Matthew 3:11 KJV I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Do you see a different baptizer in Matthew 3:11 than you do in 1 Corinthians 12:13?

Edited by fellowheir, 26 April 2012 - 04:12 PM.


#16 Richie

Richie

    Chi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,355 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 04:11 PM

You believe there was only one gospel in the Bible?


Of course. Why on earth would the Bible teach two gospels?

I was referring to passages like Acts 8, actually, where the eunuch is baptized in water. Also see 1 Peter 3 for example.

Neither have anything to do with the baptism BY one Spirit into one body.


Of course they do. By being baptized into Christ by water we are expressing our faith and thus it is a spiritual rebirth.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#17 fellowheir

fellowheir

    Alpha

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 18 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 04:42 PM

Of course.


The 12 apostles preached the gospel of the kingdom for 3 years and did not know that Christ would suffer, be killed and raised again the third day. Just a short time before he was arrested he tells them:


Matthew 16:21 KJV From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Keep in mund that they had been going about for three years preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

Look at Peter's reaction.

Matthew 16:22 KJV Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

In Acts 2


Where does Peter say "how that Christ died for our sins? He didn't. Peter preached a murder indictment to ALL the house of Israel. For the scripture saith:

Acts 2:36-38 KJV Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:41 KJV Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

They (all the house of Israel-every one of them) were to repent (change their mind) about WHO Jesus Christ was and be identified (water baptized) for the REMISSION of sins, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. NO MENTION "how that Christ died for our sins".

There is more than one gospel in the Bible. The gospel of YOUR salvation cannot be found back there in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and it certainly is not what Peter preached in the book of Acts. It just simply is NOT there. If the princes of this world had known "how that Christ died for our sins", they never would have crucified the Lord of glory!

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth! (Romans 1:16)

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And the fact that Jesus Christ died for YOURS and MY sins, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world was UNSEARCHABLE!

Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

This was all revealed TO and THROUGH the apostle Paul TO us by revelation of the risen, ascended, Lord Jesus Christ.
 


And yet you believe there was only one gospel in the Bible.

Of course they do. By being baptized into Christ by water we are expressing our faith and thus it is a spiritual rebirth.

It does NOT say, "baptized into Christ by water". You added that. You shouldn't do that. So you came out of the water neither male nor female? exactly.

Edited by fellowheir, 26 April 2012 - 04:42 PM.


#18 fellowheir

fellowheir

    Alpha

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 18 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 04:44 PM

Why on earth would the Bible teach two gospels?

simple. God has a purpose for heaven and earth.

#19 Richie

Richie

    Chi

  • Christadelphian MD
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,355 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:14 PM


Why on earth would the Bible teach two gospels?

simple. God has a purpose for heaven and earth.


What on earth? (No pun intended)

What are you talking about?

Peter, by the way, was preaching the gospel, the gospel preached to Abraham. You don't think the things Peter spoke about have anything to do with the gospel?

I must say your ideas are intriguing. I have never heard them before.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users