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Ezekiel's Bread


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#1 BroJon

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 03:21 PM

Please help me out here:

Eze 4:12 You shall eat it as a barley-cake, baking it in their sight on human dung.
Eze 4:13 The LORD said, "Thus shall the people of Israel eat their bread, unclean, among the nations to which I will drive them."
Eze 4:14 Then I said, "Ah Lord GOD! I have never defiled myself; from my youth up until now I have never eaten what died of itself or was torn by animals, nor has carrion flesh come into my mouth."
Eze 4:15 Then he said to me, "See, I will let you have cow's dung instead of human dung, on which you may prepare your bread."

Problem: An all loving merciful God

How do we reconcile this?

#2 Fortigurn

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 03:58 PM

What's to reconcile?
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
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‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

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#3 BroJon

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 04:13 PM

What's to reconcile?

Why would God ask his children to eat human excrement then change his mind, and tell them to eat Cow excrement?

It is disgusting.

#4 Fortigurn

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 04:33 PM


What's to reconcile?

Why would God ask his children to eat human excrement then change his mind, and tell them to eat Cow excrement?

It is disgusting.


God did not ask His children to eat human excrement or cow excrement. I do not understand what you are talking about. :smited:
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#5 Jeremy

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 07:52 PM

BroJon: the passage is talking about using dried dung for fuel - see v 12.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#6 BroJon

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 12:42 PM

BroJon: the passage is talking about using dried dung for fuel - see v 12.

Have you got this software: ISA

It's very good, gives you the original meaning, or as close as is possible. The ISA implies the excrement (ordures?) was cooked above, or on top of the cakes. The verse in question goes like this:

"and ember cake of barleys you shall eat her and she in ordures of excrement of the human you shall bake on embers her".

But lets just go with the dung used as fuel.

Personally I can't see it. The first commandment was to use human 'dung'. I'll admit to not being a specialist in human faeces, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't burn well as a fuel. Let alone long enough to cook cakes on it. Cow dung? Mainly grass etc would probably burn better.

But I don't think it was intended as fuel because as mentioned, the first command was to use human faeces which doesn't burn. Definitely not as fuel.

But even allowing for it being a good fuel - why on earth ask/command them to do this?

Edited by BroJon, 24 May 2010 - 12:43 PM.


#7 BDW

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 12:53 PM

A good translation will give you the "original meaning" or as close as possible rather than a number of word definitions strung together in a sentence form that is not English and therefore open to misinterpretation.
"Christ in you, the hope of glory"

#8 Evangelion

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 12:56 PM

Ezekiel 4:12
"And you must eat the food like you would a barley cake. You must bake it in front of them over a fire made with dried human excrement."


In any case, Ezekiel didn't have to do this after all, since God allowed him to use cow dung instead (verse 15, "All right then, I will substitute cow's manure instead of human excrement. You will cook your food over it").
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas
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#9 Jeremy

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 01:03 PM

Personally I can't see it. The first commandment was to use human 'dung'. I'll admit to not being a specialist in human faeces, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't burn well as a fuel. Let alone long enough to cook cakes on it. Cow dung? Mainly grass etc would probably burn better.

No it would not. Dried dung gives out a lot of heat and burns very slowly - like peat.

But I don't think it was intended as fuel because as mentioned, the first command was to use human faeces which doesn't burn. Definitely not as fuel.

You've been given the answer by a number of people. :smited:
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

#10 Richie

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 01:12 PM

But even allowing for it being a good fuel - why on earth ask/command them to do this?

See Ezekiel 24:24.

By the way you said "them" instead of "him". It was only Ezekiel who was asked to do this.

Edited by Richie, 24 May 2010 - 01:13 PM.

"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#11 BroJon

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 02:30 PM

But even allowing for it being a good fuel - why on earth ask/command them to do this?

See Ezekiel 24:24.

By the way you said "them" instead of "him". It was only Ezekiel who was asked to do this.

Them him, you, me?

Why dung? Why the whole horrible sounding scenario?

(Eze 24:24) Thus Ezekiel shall be a sign to you; you shall do just as he has done. When this comes, then you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Are you saying God asked Ezekiel to cook his food over faeces so it would servbe as a sign to prove he was their God?

#12 BroJon

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 02:35 PM

As fuel.

Ok thank you

#13 Fortigurn

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 02:49 PM

Why dung? Why the whole horrible sounding scenario?


Because Ezekiel was miming siege conditions.

(Eze 24:24) Thus Ezekiel shall be a sign to you; you shall do just as he has done. When this comes, then you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Are you saying God asked Ezekiel to cook his food over faeces so it would servbe as a sign to prove he was their God?


No, the phrase 'when this comes' is a reference to the events Ezekiel was prophesying.
Miserere mei Deus,
Secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
Et secundum multitudinem miserationum tuarum
dele iniquitatem meam.

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.
______________________________________________________________________
‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.”

Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”

Osborne & Woodward, ‘Handbook for Bible study’, pp. 13-14 (1979)

______________________________________________________________________
target="_blank">Apologetics

#14 Richie

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 03:15 PM


But even allowing for it being a good fuel - why on earth ask/command them to do this?

See Ezekiel 24:24.

By the way you said "them" instead of "him". It was only Ezekiel who was asked to do this.

Them him, you, me?

Him. God told Ezekiel and nobody else to cook the food using dung as fuel. It's helpful to actually read what the text says.

Why dung? Why the whole horrible sounding scenario?

To teach a potent lesson. Have you ever heard of object lessons?

(Eze 24:24) Thus Ezekiel shall be a sign to you; you shall do just as he has done. When this comes, then you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Are you saying God asked Ezekiel to cook his food over faeces so it would servbe as a sign to prove he was their God?

That verse is the divine summary of Ezekiel's ministry. He did object lesson and after object lesson to serve as a visual aid in order to teach the rebellious nation about their sin and God's dealing with that sin. Furthermore the whole prophecy is intended to bring people around to knowing who God is.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

#15 BroJon

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 03:08 PM

Him. God told Ezekiel and nobody else to cook the food using dung as fuel. It's helpful to actually read what the text says.

Be nice.

BroJonWhy dung? Why the whole horrible sounding scenario?

To teach a potent lesson. Have you ever heard of object lessons?

Yes I have. But what would you say was the symbolism/thinking behind using human dung then changing it to cow's dung? I mean even rotten fish wouldn't have been so bad.

My point; it seems a little overkill

#16 Richie

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 03:45 PM

BroJonWhy dung? Why the whole horrible sounding scenario?

To teach a potent lesson. Have you ever heard of object lessons?

Yes I have. But what would you say was the symbolism/thinking behind using human dung then changing it to cow's dung? I mean even rotten fish wouldn't have been so bad.

My point; it seems a little overkill

See verse 13. It was a potent lesson for the children of Israel to learn regarding their experience in Gentile lands. If it was overkill God wouldn't have commanded it. It might seem like overkill to save people through the horrible death of an innocent man, but with human nature it's really hard to get through unless you do something dramatic.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.




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