7 replies to this topic

[Corky]

I always wondered where in the scriptures (old testament) that the lake of fire in the Apocalypse of John came from.

Someone here recently mentioned the book of Enoch, so out of curiosity I decided to read that book. I read the first book yesterday and discovered where the "lake of fire" is mentioned. Also, a lot of stuff about "the son of man" that sounds a whole lot like Jesus in the NT gospels.

If Christianity is founded on the books of Enoch, as it appears to be, why aren't they considered scripture?

It kind of makes me wish I hadn't deleted my blog . . . . but not that much. However, out of curiosity, how much of the NT is quotes from Enoch? I found several and that was only the first book - three more to go.

[Evangelion]

Corky, on what basis do you claim that Christianity appears to be founded on the book of Enoch? Just because it talks about a "son of man" and a "lake of fire"? Is that it?

[Naphal]

Corky, on Feb 18 2010, 12:04 PM, said:

If Christianity is founded on the books of Enoch, as it appears to be, why aren't they considered scripture?

I think you've used the wrong term. Christianity is founded upon the life and death of Christ. I think you meant the NT founded on Enoch, and even that is an odd question. No NT book is founded upon anything else. One book may quote another and that is really where your question lies. You believe parts of the NT borrow or quote from Enoch. Your question then, why isnt Enoch in the canonized bible when parts of Enoch are found in the bible? The easy answer is that men who decided what books were authentic and not decided Enoch wasn't. I personally don't allow others to make such decisions for me. I've read Enoch, and find it to be as authentic as any other book in the bible. And like you, see the some similar things from Enoch in the other books.

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2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them
down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved
unto judgment;


Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left
their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under
darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



Enoch 10:15 To Michael likewise the Lord said, Go and announce his crime to Samyaza, and to the others who are with him,
who have been associated with women, that they might be polluted with all their impurity. And when all their
sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations
underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment, and of consummation, until the judgment, the effect of which
will last for ever, be completed.


Enoch 10:6 Again the Lord said to Raphael, Bind Azazyel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, cast him in there.
Enoch 10:7 Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones, covering him with darkness;
Enoch 10:8 There shall he remain for ever; cover his face, that he may not see the light.
Enoch 10:9 And in the great day of judgment let him be cast into the fire.

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Jude:1:14:
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, (KJV)
Jude:1:15:
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (KJV)
Jude:1:16:
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. (KJV)



Enoch 2:1:
Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked,
and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.

Quote

Genesis 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.





Enoch 7:1 It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful.
Enoch 7:2 And when the angels, (3) the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each
other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.

[Corky]

Evangelion, on Feb 18 2010, 02:37 PM, said:

Corky, on what basis do you claim that Christianity appears to be founded on the book of Enoch? Just because it talks about a "son of man" and a "lake of fire"? Is that it?

I don't know, I haven't read it all yet. From what I have read, it sounds very much like Christianity is founded on the books of Enoch - especially the mainstream.

Since the things in the NT are supposed to be founded on the scriptures, i.e., the OT Law and Prophets - where in the OT is found anything about the lake of fire? And, if the books of Enoch aren't "scripture", why does the NT quote it so much?

[SedesGobhani]

Corky, on Feb 18 2010, 04:33 PM, said:

Evangelion, on Feb 18 2010, 02:37 PM, said:

Corky, on what basis do you claim that Christianity appears to be founded on the book of Enoch? Just because it talks about a "son of man" and a "lake of fire"? Is that it?

I don't know, I haven't read it all yet. From what I have read, it sounds very much like Christianity is founded on the books of Enoch - especially the mainstream.

Since the things in the NT are supposed to be founded on the scriptures, i.e., the OT Law and Prophets - where in the OT is found anything about the lake of fire? And, if the books of Enoch aren't "scripture", why does the NT quote it so much?

I've read enough from the book of Enoch to believe that it is not inspired. It contains too much superstition. However there may be certain benefits to reading it if you are studying the calendar system and other aspects of some ancient culture.

Jude by the spirit mentions some things that Enoch "the seventh from Adam" prophesied "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints".

It does sound similar to this:
De 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

I think that if the "Book of Enoch" which we have today is not inspired, it was probably created (as many other apocryphal writings and phony gospel accounts were) after the book of Jude was written, as it was probably Jude's mention of Enoch's prophecies which make someone think to write it in the first place. If this is the case we might expect similar language to Christian writings, being written in or just after that era.

[Landmark]

Corky, on Feb 18 2010, 09:04 PM, said:

I always wondered where in the scriptures (old testament) that the lake of fire in the Apocalypse of John came from.

Someone here recently mentioned the book of Enoch, so out of curiosity I decided to read that book. I read the first book yesterday and discovered where the "lake of fire" is mentioned. Also, a lot of stuff about "the son of man" that sounds a whole lot like Jesus in the NT gospels.

If Christianity is founded on the books of Enoch, as it appears to be, why aren't they considered scripture?

It kind of makes me wish I hadn't deleted my blog . . . . but not that much. However, out of curiosity, how much of the NT is quotes from Enoch? I found several and that was only the first book - three more to go.

there is really no case to be made that Rev draws from the book of Enoch or any other apocryphal book particularly on the issue of the lake of fire, the problem as usual is that the subject is seriously clouded by relatively modern influences...we tend to gravitate towards the 'fiery' aspect of the lake, whilst overlooking the fact that the 'fire' is simply an adjective describing the primary symbol which is the 'lake'.....just because the lake is 'fiery' doesn't negate the importance of the lake itself

one of the most critical and potent symbols from Gen 1 thru Rev is the symbol of water, and water always represents groups of people in prophecy, poetry and or allegory etc........we have a consistent interpretation based on precedent and we can rightly take the Rev at face value, without regard for theoretical outside influences, that is the lake=people and fire=judgment....any similarity to secular works is irrelevant and incidental

for example, briefly compare Rev 4:6 and 15:2, we have in 4:6 a view of the nations once the kingdom age has been fully established, they are symbolized by 'a sea of glass like crystal' representing clarity re: the truth (transparent glass) and no more storm tossed seas or (troubled nations)...this is similar but not identical to the sea of glass in 15:2, this time its mingled with 'fire' because Christ is still in the midst of his judgments and establishing the kingdom, notice also in 15:2 that the saints 'stand' on this sea of nations in direct contrast to the woman who formerly 'sat' upon them in 17:1....standing is superior to sitting just as the rule of Christ is superior to the rule of false religion.

In short water is code, if you like, for people, and thats why the Rev didn't copy borrow or derive its symbols from any other source....its a uniquely Biblical approach

[Lectron]

Corky, on Feb 19 2010, 12:33 AM, said:

Since the things in the NT are supposed to be founded on the scriptures, i.e., the OT Law and Prophets - where in the OT is found anything about the lake of fire?

And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord: and he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.
Read Gen 19:24-28

Surely as with all Apocalypse images, this one is drawn from the irreversable judgements meted out on the cities of the plain which became a blazing lake of molten Sulphur still choking with smoke the following day.

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And, if the books of Enoch aren't "scripture", why does the NT quote it so much?

The Last book of the bible is quite possibly the Lord.s answer to the shortcomings of contempory apocalyptic literature.