9 replies to this topic

[Naphal]

Its pretty common for people to speak of judgment day as this one single event, but is that accurate?

[ChickenSoup]

The problem here is that you believe that when people die, they are automatically judged - good people go to Heaven and bad people go to Hell.

Then when Christ returns they are judged again.

That's the problem I have with your belief, which is what I'd like to clarify.

1. Judgment before Christ returns.
2. Judgment when Christ returns.

This is what I object to. In my frenzy to respond to your posts, which I really haven't had the time to do, I haven't made myself clear.

Edited by ChickenSoup, 14 February 2010 - 03:09 AM.

[Naphal]

ChickenSoup, on Feb 13 2010, 06:59 PM, said:

The problem here is that you believe that when people die, they are automatically judged - good people go to Heaven and bad people go to Hell.

Its more of an informal judging as opposed to facing a judge, like Christ, and receiving a judgment. I'm more interested in talking about the great day of judgment and then seeing if it is the only one or not. The part about what happens right after death won't be relevant in this thread as I'm interested in other examples.

So, lets start with people talking about what judgment they know of and we'll discuss it and go from there.

[Evangelion]

Two. One at Christ's return and a second at the end of the millennial reign.

[Naphal]

Evangelion, on Feb 14 2010, 04:37 AM, said:

Two. One at Christ's return and a second at the end of the millennial reign.

Agreed.

[Corn in Egypt]

Naphal, on 15 February 2010 - 02:38 AM, said:

<!--quoteo(post=402462:date=Feb 14 2010, 04:37 AM:name=Evangelion)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evangelion @ Feb 14 2010, 04:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=402462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Two. One at Christ's return and a second at the end of the millennial reign.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Agreed.

I also would say two, One of the Nations just after Christ's return, and one at the end of his milenium reign.
When all the graves and the sea gives up the dead, there is no pronounsment of a judgement at the first resurection,
infact the scriptures says, there is no condemnation (Judgement) for those who come forth then.

[daysha]

Replying to the post immediately above this one:

But if the people who come out of the graves at the resurrection at Jesus' return are just left unjudged, how will they be organised into the righteous and the unrighteous unless Jesus judges them?
There logically needs to be a judgement of those individuals who have known the true Gospel at the first resurrection when Jesus returns.

This will be a future event. Those judged as having lived a faithful life in loving service to Jesus will be then granted eternal life and made into beings who are incapable of ever sinning. What a joyous prospect to look forward to!

It is necessary so that he can then organise his true followers to go forth into the world to preach, heal, judge the world and many other things that will bring this nasty world into subjugation and then rule with those resurrected and immortalised & sinless folk for 1,000 years.

[Corn in Egypt]

Daysha, The dead in Christ raise first, they are the ones who come forth in the first resurrection, Christ being
the First fruits, then them that are His at his coming. this is the resurrection of the Just, The Unjust will be
those in the later resurrection.
Do you believe you where forgiven of past sins at your Baptism ? do you believe that if you sin after baptism that
you have a mediator, who is will to give forgiveness for those sins ? if you do nothing doubting,judgement has been
given during your walk by your Savior,Why should you have to stand in Judgement again ? and what for, your sins have
been forgiven.

[Coja]

Corn in Egypt, on 02 April 2010 - 09:25 AM, said:

Daysha, The dead in Christ raise first, they are the ones who come forth in the first resurrection, Christ being
the First fruits, then them that are His at his coming. this is the resurrection of the Just, The Unjust will be
those in the later resurrection.
Do you believe you where forgiven of past sins at your Baptism ? do you believe that if you sin after baptism that
you have a mediator, who is will to give forgiveness for those sins ? if you do nothing doubting,judgement has been
given during your walk by your Savior,Why should you have to stand in Judgement again ? and what for, your sins have
been forgiven.

I know the question wasn't directed at me...but do you mind if i reply?

Yes I believe my sins were forgiven at baptism (1 Cor 6:11

Yes I believe that i have an intercessor and a God who is willing and able to forgive my sins if i confess them to him and am repentant (1 John 1:9)

But what about someone who is baptized who then walked away from the truth? Or someone who is baptized into the truth, lives a life kind of on the sidelines never really gets "their hands dirty" so to speak and isn't confident of the fact that they may be accepted. Which then begs a different question can we ever be truly %100 confident of our salvation after baptism? There is no "eternal security".

Matthew 25 also gives examples of the judgement for us when we stand before our Lord. For Example:


Matt 25:14-19
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Phrases like "as a man travelling into a far country" "straightway took his journey" "after a long time the Lord of those servants cometh and reckoneth with the." This certainly sounds as though it is talking about the absence of Christ and then a judgment of his servants at his return!

Or what about this refference from 2 Corinthians:
2 Cor 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Does this mean that those who may have been "unjust" in the ecclesia of Corinth will be resurrected and appear before the Lord at a different time? This verse gives no indication of that.

I think in order to understand this properly we need to take into consideration the whole counsel of God and not just particular passages. The verse you quoted from Thessalonians is correct but needs to be put into the big picture with the rest of scripture. Perhaps others would like to fill in some more of the picture?

[Coja]

Evangelion, on 14 February 2010 - 12:37 PM, said:

Two. One at Christ's return and a second at the end of the millennial reign.

Another agreement