17 replies to this topic

[luke]

I'm wondering about the relationship between faith and doubt. Can we doubt?

One Christian writer, in kind of a defence of doubt, had this to say:

Quote

Sometimes a person is tempted to think, I can’t become a Christian because I still have doubts. I’m still not sure. But as long as doubts exist, as long as the person is still uncertain, that is the only time faith is needed. When doubts are gone, the person doesn’t need faith anymore.

John Ortberg, Faith and Doubt (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2008), p. 139

I'm kind of taken by the notion, but I'm doubting () if it's accurate.

The Bible says things like:
[indent]...the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. (James 1:6)[/indent]
And:
[indent]...without faith it is impossible to please God... (Heb. 11:6)[/indent]
This might be only one side of the story (the other possibly being expressed in Mark 9:24: 'I believe. Help my unbelief'), but it implies that doubt is a big negative.

What do you think? Can we be Christians and still have doubt? How much? Is doubt healthy? Is doubt necessary, even, for faith to mean anything?

Edited by luke, 22 December 2009 - 06:30 PM.

[Grace]

Somebody wise sent me his thoughts on faith and doubt recently (I hope he doesn't mind me posting it here):
[indent]I much prefer the emphasis in this version: “faith is what we stand on when we look to the future, our touchstone for things we cannot see”. This faith is rooted in what we know, and it helps us make decisions about things which are not yet fully open to us. This kind of faith is grounded in reality. It is not blind at all.

The idea of faith as a journey goes back to the example of Abraham, who is presented to us in a number of verses as the “father of the faithful”, and the true exemplar of faith. But if Abraham’s journey is a figure for our faith, then it is surely significant that it is a journey to an uncertain destination. “Through faith Abraham obeyed the call to leave his home and set out for a land which he was to receive for a possession; he set out without knowing where he was to go.”

This is troubling. We tend to look at faith as though it requires absolute certainty or it is not a strong faith. That we need to know exactly what the future holds in order to have any confidence in it. That our faith needs to be accurate, correct and precise or it is no faith at all. Yet the example of Abraham shows that certainty isn’t an essential part of the deal. It is trust that is all-important. Abraham trusted God, even though he didn’t know where God was taking him.[/indent]
I think it's rather wonderful.

[daysha]

luke, on Dec 22 2009, 07:28 PM, said:

I'm wondering about the relationship between faith and doubt. Can we doubt?
What do you think? Can we be Christians and still have doubt? How much? Is doubt healthy? Is doubt necessary, even, for faith to mean anything?

I think that when God put Mark 9:24 in the cannon of Scripture He did it for a reason: to encourage us when we feel doubtful.

..."Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." KJV.

..., “I believe; help my unbelief!” NET.

Jesus went out of his way to heal that man's son even though the man didn't have perfect faith. The man had the right attitude though.

Edited by daysha, 23 December 2009 - 12:52 AM.

[freckle]

Jude 22 "Be merciful to those who doubt"

(ok the translation of this verse is quite variable and you won't find this in the KJV but the NIV, ESV and NET do go for this translation)

[Evangelion]

Doubt is perfectly natural and healthy. Yes, even for a Christian.

[Phil]

Hi Luke,

When it comes to God, I can doubt in many different ways:
1. doubt that he exists (Heb 11:6, Psalm 14:1, both deal with this space)
2. doubt that he is who he says he is (Ps 78:7-9)
3. doubt that he tells the truth and/or keeps his promises (Heb 11:6, 10:23
4. doubt that he will give me wisdom when i ask (James 1)
5. doubt that he can help me (couldn't be bothered thinking up more quotes)
6. etc

It's probably relatively important not to conflate all of these, lumping all doubt into one simple category and painting a big red X on the box James 1 is very specific (dealing with asking for wisdom), and Heb 11:6 is as close to a statement of the obvious as it gets, suggesting that those who come to God should probably believe he exists

Then there's the issue of quantity. Faith is not on or off, it comes on a continuum. Jesus talked about faith "as a grain of mustard seed", which would be meaningless if you couldn't have faith of say, a mango seed. The disciples asked Jesus to "increase their faith", and in Mark 9 you've already mentioned a fella who confessed to having belief and unbelief simultaneously, but wasn't told to come back when he could leave out the second bit.

I don't reckon Otberg makes much sense. He says that where certainty is faith isn't, and that sounds a wee bit like rubbish. It's true to say that faith can be where certainty isn't (Grace's post made that point beautifully - and certain passages of Lamentations and Job come to mind, did Daniel know that God would answer his prayer? probably not, but he definitely trusted God), but it's not true to say that certainty means there is no faith. I just think there's no relationship between the two - they're on different scales.

I don't reckon i've made much sense either. Can you pick through that and find something useful? If not i'll try again...

[Dawn]

Interestingly this very topic is the theme of the West country Praise Day in January 2010:

http://www.facebook.com/?filter=app_239295...494&index=1

....led by Anthony whitehorn from Maidenhead.

I can't go unfortunately, but maybe he's got something on it.

[sarah]

Grace: you mentioned this:

Quote

Abraham trusted God, even though he didn’t know where God was taking him.

is trust therefore very close to faith?

[DJP]

There's a tendency to read Heb 11:1 as defining "faith" to be "not faith." I think that's wrong.

[luke]

Can you explain a bit more, please? Thanks.

[luke]

Grace, on Dec 22 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

Somebody wise sent me his thoughts on faith and doubt recently (I hope he doesn't mind me posting it here):
<snip>
I think it's rather wonderful.

It's beaut! Thanks for sharing. I'd love to read more of the same, if it's possible.

[luke]

Evangelion, on Dec 23 2009, 11:04 AM, said:

Doubt is perfectly natural and healthy. Yes, even for a Christian.

Any chance you could explain how it's healthy, Ev?

[luke]

Thanks everyone for your input.

[Evangelion]

luke, on Jan 6 2010, 08:08 PM, said:

Evangelion, on Dec 23 2009, 11:04 AM, said:

Doubt is perfectly natural and healthy. Yes, even for a Christian.

Any chance you could explain how it's healthy, Ev?

Doubt is healthy because it forces us to re-examine our beliefs and our reasons for having them.

[Grace]

luke, on Jan 6 2010, 09:37 AM, said:

Grace, on Dec 22 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

Somebody wise sent me his thoughts on faith and doubt recently (I hope he doesn't mind me posting it here):
<snip>
I think it's rather wonderful.

It's beaut! Thanks for sharing. I'd love to read more of the same, if it's possible.

I'll ask him if I can post the lot.

[Rebel]

sarah, on Dec 23 2009, 03:05 PM, said:

Grace: you mentioned this:

Quote

Abraham trusted God, even though he didn’t know where God was taking him.

is trust therefore very close to faith?