8 replies to this topic

[Abishua]

I have been talking to a couple of JWs. They believe that Jesus does not have a physical (albiet a glorified body) and will not return to earth with one. That Jesus is now spirit (because flesh and blood cannot enherit the kingdom) and is currently ruling from heaven, having established his kingdom invisibly in the year 1914

Are there any unambiguous scriptures that I can use to bolster my position? That being, Jesus will return physically to earth and rule from David's throne in Jerusalem.

[Fortigurn]

See here and attached.

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[Abishua]

Thank you both!

[SedesGobhani]

Thisisme, on Nov 25 2009, 09:35 PM, said:

The JW's are right about flesh and blood.

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


However, They are wrong about Jesus being a spirit. When the Apostles were scared because they thought he was a spirit he said this;

Luke 24:38-40

38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

Since he didn't mention blood and we know that the life is in the blood because the Bible says this;

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Jesus as an immortal no longer had his life source from blood. Compare this with the prophesy of the valley of dry bones, which I believe has a two fold meaning. One, it is a prophesy of the regathering of Israel. Two, it is a prophesy of the resurrection. In the whole description of the flesh and bones coming together, there is no mention of blood. There is now a new life source, God through the Holy Spirit.

I think that Jesus is a spirit. Here are my reasons:

I read that Jesus was made a quickening spirit. He also said the glorified saints will be equal to the angels, who are said elsewhere to be spirits. I have also heard trinitarians claim that Jesus is now "flesh and bones". I prefer to think that when Jesus said he was not a spirit, he had not ascended yet.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

It is said that "we shall all be changed", and "this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality". Elsewhere we read "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

Here it says he has a "glorious body". A body of flesh and bones is glorious? From this I perceive that Christ is a spirit, for God is a spirit, and the angels are spirits.

I think the problem may just lay in our conception of what is a spirit, possibly due to our cultural beliefs about ghosts. A spirit is not nothing. It is something physical, just not the physics that we understand. Those who have seen angels, it was said in at least two places, maybe more, that their eyes were opened. So it isn't that the angels are invisible, but that we are rendered incapable of seeing them. Thus Jesus will be able to show the wounds in his hands, although he is not flesh and blood. Angels are spirits, yet they wrestled with people, ate food, fought in Israel's wars, &c. They are tangible and can be seen, if we are allowed to see them.

Just my opinion, anyway. I could be wrong, and if you think so let me know. Although I do find your above comments about the resurrection description with no blood mentioned pretty interesting.

Love in Jesus,
SG

Edited by SedesGobhani, 27 November 2009 - 06:37 AM.

[Jeremy]

SedesGobhani, on Nov 27 2009, 06:33 AM, said:

I read that Jesus was made a quickening spirit. He also said the glorified saints will be equal to the angels, who are said elsewhere to be spirits.

But in what sense are they equal to the angels? In that they don't marry. Jesus didn't say the saints will be equal to the angels in every respect, which clearly they won't be, as they will judge angels (1 Cor. 6 v 3).

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I have also heard trinitarians claim that Jesus is now "flesh and bones".

Well that's exactly what Jesus himself said, so those Trinitarians were right on this point.

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I prefer to think that when Jesus said he was not a spirit, he had not ascended yet.

Then you need to find some evidence that by ascending to Heaven Jesus somehow lost his body.

Abishua, I would suggest you ask the JWs you're talking to for (1) evidence of how anyone or anything in the Bible can live without a body (I would have said that living means having a body), and (2) how having a gloried body actually means having no body.

[Jeremy]

steveyb3, on Nov 27 2009, 09:59 AM, said:

What do you think this means? Surely Angels can't sin so can't be judged?

Not sure. I wonder if it means "administer", but I think someone here poo-poo'd that suggestion last time I made it.

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When?

In the Luke 24 quote above.

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God is Spirit. Jesus is now partaker in the Divine Nature. Doesn't that make him Spirit? After his resurrection he could "appear in different form" (Mark 16:12) etc and I don't think he could die either (Rom 6:9). The mortal things he did like eat fish were for others benefit I believe and not because he actually had to.

This could easily become about technical definitions but isn't it alright for Jesus to have a "Spirit-body?"

It's fine. What I think you've just shown is that being spirit doesn't mean you don't have a body. You do have a body, but it's a spirit body (however we understand that) not a body of flesh and blood. The Bible doesn't spell it out, but I don't picture having spirit nature as meaning we're just a whiff of gas.

[SedesGobhani]

Hi Jeremy;

You make some good points, but hopefully you won't be offended if I say that my opinion hasn't been swayed.

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But in what sense are they equal to the angels? In that they don't marry. Jesus didn't say the saints will be equal to the angels in every respect, which clearly they won't be, as they will judge angels (1 Cor. 6 v 3).

Correct... they will not be equal in status to the angels, for I think we both would agree that angels differ in glory from each other, and those born in the spirit will as well, so the resurrected saints will not be equal in status even to each other, except in a comparative sense to God and his anointed. To argue equality in status would be an indefensible position. (BTW I think "angels" in this passage refers to mortals, as other examples exist, and I don't think angels can sin).

To the point, here is what I meant by "equal":

Lu 20:36 They can not die any more, for <gar> (because) they are equal unto the angels <isaggelos> (similar to - angels)

They apparently aren't equal in only the sense that they do not marry, from this verse.

I think that the saints' bodies will be made similar to the angels, and I don't believe that angels are flesh and bone of the dust of the earth. I guess you could say I place more doctrinal weight on 1Co 15:35-54, which indicates to me that there are two bodies which those called "man" may have. The first body, before the resurrection and glorification, is "of the earth, earthy". It is made of substance from below. The glorified man is "heavenly". I see these as a contrast. I think John Thomas also expressed that when Jesus met Thomas, he had not yet ascended and been glorified, although I can't at the moment recall which book I read that in.

Again, I welcome someone to correct me if I'm in some sort of doctrinal error. I think of a "spiritual body" as physical. It's made out of something. It's not just nothing.

Love in Jesus our Lord,
SG

Edited by SedesGobhani, 27 November 2009 - 06:01 PM.

[SedesGobhani]

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Then you need to find some evidence that by ascending to Heaven Jesus somehow lost his body.

I just noticed this. I don't think I said that Jesus somehow lost his body. My current position is that his natural body was changed to a spirit body. That is also what happens to the saints, their bodies will be "changed". Or at least that's what scripture seems to indicate. Maybe we see it the same way but are just using different terminology or something.

Edited by SedesGobhani, 27 November 2009 - 10:56 PM.