287 replies to this topic

[Abishua]

What are your thoughts? Does trinitarianism = idolatry?

[Evangelion]

Since it involves the worship of a created being (Jesus) I'd say yes, it constitutes idolatry.

[Mercia2]

Quote

What are your thoughts? Does trinitarianism = idolatry?

Depends if their adoring a man or Gods Spirit and Words manifested and spoke by that man who was manifesting God/the Divine Image.
It is a matter of perception, spiritual or natural.

Natural = external = idolatry
Spiritual = internal = in spirit and in truth (Gods Word).

Why invent names like trinity anyway?

Edited by Mercia2, 28 October 2009 - 02:51 AM.

[Mercia2]

Hi Ev, hope your both settling in ok etc

[Abishua]

Mercia2, on Oct 27 2009, 09:50 PM, said:

Quote

What are your thoughts? Does trinitarianism = idolatry?

Depends if their adoring a man or Gods Spirit and Words manifested and spoke by that man who was manifesting God/the Divine Image.
It is a matter of perception, spiritual or natural.

Natural = external = idolatry
Spiritual = internal = in spirit and in truth (Gods Word).

Why invent names like trinity anyway?

Well, when I was a trin, the focus was always on Jesus. I believed he was God and worshipped him as such. I never worshipped or prayed to the Holy Spirit, and hardly ever prayed to the Father (that I remember anyways). The focus was pretty much placed on Jesus, while the Father was "neglected".

[Evangelion]

Mercia2, on Oct 28 2009, 01:24 PM, said:

Hi Ev, hope your both settling in ok etc

We're doing well, thanks mate. Hope you're OK too.

[Colter]

I’m a different sort of Trinitarian, but believe in a Trinity to be sure. On the judgment day if I were accused of "idolatry" then I would call Jesus as my witness and ask him to restate what he said about where he came from, who he is/was, and what he said about returning to the right hand of the Father, having been given all power and authority in heaven and on earth.

I would use as my defense the fact that I put my trust in what Jesus taught (or the impression that he gave to billions of Christians past and present) as well as his enemies who herd him speak the same words and set out to destroy him accordingly.

If I have been mislead into idolatry, I was mislead by Jesus.....but had I stubbornly adhered to OT Judaism, I would have equally condemned him by the same letter of the law.




Colter

[Evangelion]

Hey ho.

Good to see you again, Coltster.

[Colter]

Evangelion, on Oct 28 2009, 01:29 PM, said:

Hey ho.

Good to see you again, Coltster.

Hi Eve, it's nice to be seen, thank you....and very nice to see you as well.

C

[heshallreign]

Colter, on Oct 28 2009, 08:27 AM, said:

I’m a different sort of Trinitarian, but believe in a Trinity to be sure. On the judgment day if I were accused of "idolatry" then I would call Jesus as my witness and ask him to restate what he said about where he came from, who he is/was, and what he said about returning to the right hand of the Father, having been given all power and authority in heaven and on earth.

I would use as my defense the fact that I put my trust in what Jesus taught (or the impression that he gave to billions of Christians past and present) as well as his enemies who herd him speak the same words and set out to destroy him accordingly.

If I have been mislead into idolatry, I was mislead by Jesus.....but had I stubbornly adhered to OT Judaism, I would have equally condemned him by the same letter of the law.




Colter

I don't feel it was anything Jesus said or did that lead me to believe the falseness of the doctrine of the Trinity. It was false church teachings. Jesus showed very clearly that he was not God, but God's son. Scripture is very clear on it...church doctrine...not so much.

Jesus said point blank he was God manifestation. He was able to be called God such as Moses/the Angels and the Judges of Israel. Seen in his response when accused of being like God in John 10:34. That link is to Psalm 82:6.

[Colter]

heshallreign, on Oct 28 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

Colter, on Oct 28 2009, 08:27 AM, said:

I’m a different sort of Trinitarian, but believe in a Trinity to be sure. On the judgment day if I were accused of "idolatry" then I would call Jesus as my witness and ask him to restate what he said about where he came from, who he is/was, and what he said about returning to the right hand of the Father, having been given all power and authority in heaven and on earth.

I would use as my defense the fact that I put my trust in what Jesus taught (or the impression that he gave to billions of Christians past and present) as well as his enemies who herd him speak the same words and set out to destroy him accordingly.

If I have been mislead into idolatry, I was mislead by Jesus.....but had I stubbornly adhered to OT Judaism, I would have equally condemned him by the same letter of the law.




Colter

I don't feel it was anything Jesus said or did that lead me to believe the falseness of the doctrine of the Trinity. It was false church teachings. Jesus showed very clearly that he was not God, but God's son. Scripture is very clear on it...church doctrine...not so much.

Jesus said point blank he was God manifestation. He was able to be called God such as Moses/the Angels and the Judges of Israel. Seen in his response when accused of being like God in John 10:34. That link is to Psalm 82:6.

Hello heshallreign,

In the past I failed to acknowledge or fully appreciate the position of anti-Trinitarians in their arguments concerning the adoption or creation of "the Trinity" as a theological concept by the early Christian church. However I do appreciate the conundrum that the church was in when considering that they see Jesus as Divine, pre-existent and currently Lord, sitting at the right hand of God the Father with all power and authority in heaven and on earth.

It is also clear that Jesus said, without a doubt, that he was not God the Father, he maintained (only to the twelve) that he was The Son of God. He forbid them from revealing his identity until he left. He did however intimate clearly that he and the Father were unified, that he had glory with the Father before this world was, that he came down from heaven, lived, died and resurrected himself from the dead (just as he so clearly said he would) and has now returned as sovereign Lord.

If the testimony of Jesus at my trial is insufficient, I will then call the author of the book of John and have him recant the opening of his book, as that seems to further mislead sincere believers into thinking the world was created through this word-Son, that this personality was with the Father before this world was....yada yada.

If I’m still an idolater, then I will plead insanity. I will testify that my spiritual awakening 24 years ago was just a "hot flash". That the spirit which I have come to know as a real presence in my life, one which has sustained me in my 24 years of sobriety, one that rescued me from regular thoughts of suicide, an experience which was so transforming that my own friends and family hardly recognize who I have become, that the consciousness of the presence of God is merely a figment of my egoistic, mortal imagination, that the atheist are right, we just create God in our own imagination then rely upon him to satisfy our feelings of insecurity in a meaningless universe.

As I'm dragged off from the proceedings, my last words will be; "why didn't you just say what you meant, how many more could have been saved?"



C

[glimmer]

Abishua, on Oct 28 2009, 07:38 AM, said:

Well, when I was a trin, the focus was always on Jesus. I believed he was God and worshipped him as such. I never worshipped or prayed to the Holy Spirit, and hardly ever prayed to the Father (that I remember anyways). The focus was pretty much placed on Jesus, while the Father was "neglected".

That was my experience as well. Although about 50% of my prayers were to the Father and 50% to Jesus.

[heshallreign]

Colter, on Oct 28 2009, 11:06 AM, said:

It is also clear that Jesus said, without a doubt, that he was not God the Father, he maintained (only to the twelve) that he was The Son of God. He forbid them from revealing his identity until he left. He did however intimate clearly that he and the Father were unified, that he had glory with the Father before this world was, that he came down from heaven, lived, died and resurrected himself from the dead (just as he so clearly said he would) and has now returned as sovereign Lord.

Hmm. Jesus did say that He and the Father are one. John 10:30 I and my Father are one. True. Does that mean Jesus is of one essence with the Father? If you say in terms of if he said they are "one" ... one means of the same thing, co-existent, co-eternal...Jesus must be God.

You then must use the same terms for a husband and wife. Mark 10:7-8 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh."

Also the same must be applied to the words of Jesus, in prayer, of his apostles. John 17:21-22 "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:"

Jesus is to his Father, like minded in purpose, same as a husband and wife ought to be and same as followers of Christ ought to be.

Christ raised himself??? No. Without making this terribly long. Let me just ask this, where is the sacrifice in a crucifixion when you can't die? When you know...I will raise myself in 3 days. Where is the example of Faith in God's power in love? There is no connection then to the faith Abraham had in God in being ready to kill his son, whom he loved.

This is how the sacrifice of Christ is made nothing. It is completely insulted by such thinking. The God of the Trinity didn't have to have faith. He didn't have to trust.

Colter, on Oct 28 2009, 11:06 AM, said:

As I'm dragged off from the proceedings, my last words will be; "why didn't you just say what you meant, how many more could have been saved?"

C

If I can offer any advise, never blame Christ for misunderstanding. Blame the Church for not giving the tools to help you with understanding who Christ is and the sacrifice he made. Christ will not be blamed for those who twisted it. The teachers will be held more accountable.

Christ did say what he meant. The people from the pulpit telling you what you should think and what Christ meant are at fault. At the judgment, there will be no room to blame as there was in the garden. . . especially not Christ.

Edited by heshallreign, 28 October 2009 - 03:51 PM.

[twoofseven]

glimmer, on Oct 28 2009, 08:36 AM, said:

Abishua, on Oct 28 2009, 07:38 AM, said:

Well, when I was a trin, the focus was always on Jesus. I believed he was God and worshipped him as such. I never worshipped or prayed to the Holy Spirit, and hardly ever prayed to the Father (that I remember anyways). The focus was pretty much placed on Jesus, while the Father was "neglected".

That was my experience as well. Although about 50% of my prayers were to the Father and 50% to Jesus.

Mine were similar as well. Lots of times you might start out addressing the prayer to Heavenly Father and switch interchangeably between God and Jesus during the prayer. Now it seems very strange, but it was perfectly normal at the time.

[Colter]

Quote

Hmm. Jesus did say that He and the Father are one. John 10:30 I and my Father are one. True. Does that mean Jesus is of one essence with the Father? If you say in terms of if he said they are "one" ... one means of the same thing, co-existent, co-eternal...Jesus must be God.

No, Jesus is The Son of God, to all intents and purposes God to us, he is a "chip off the ole block". As The son off God, he is unified in divinity; he does as his Father does. It was required of him to incarnate as one of his own coe-created beings. He experienced all that we are asked to experience, he achieved the pinnacle of spiritual growth, was tested in all things; he even shared the experience of death in his great love for mankind.

...when married, I wasn't in my wife and she was never in me....though she did get into my business far more then was necessary.

Quote

Christ raised himself??? No. Without making this terribly long. Let me just ask this, where is the sacrifice in a crucifixion when you can't die? When you know...I will raise myself in 3 days. Where is the example of Faith in God's power in love? There is no connection then to the faith Abraham had in God in being ready to kill his son, whom he loved.

I can make that short, sacrifice minded Jewish converts (Paul) assumed that the cross was a sacrifice instead of a shared human experience based on love, not a crass injustice to change the mind of a changeless God. Jesus’ gospel that he and the 12 taught for three years before they even knew he was going to submit to the death experience, had no foundation whatsoever in human sacrifice to please God or satisfy God so that he would finally forgive mankind. In Jesus' pre-contorted teachings, God the Father was already forgiving, the lost needed to repent of their sinful separation, receive forgiveness and forgive there debtors in return. It was spiritual, not ceremonial nor sacrificial.

Jesus didn't come to change the law,..... because Jesus wasn't a reformer of Judaism, he established a spiritual kingdom comprised of those who believe in the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of all mankind. The Laws were man made, evolved religion. He just left them intact while establishing something new, a generic form of spirituality for all of the world, not just a chosen few.

Quote

If I can offer any advise, never blame Christ for misunderstanding. Blame the Church for not giving the tools to help you with understanding who Christ is and the sacrifice he made. Christ will not be blamed for those who twisted it. The teachers will be held more accountable.

It was tongue in cheek, I know what Jesus meant, he was a duel nature being who taught spiritual truth to those who could stop thinking and start realizing. The flesh is finite and temporary; the spirit is eternal and living.


And as for the church, they haven’t impressed upon me the realization that Jesus is divine, they generally concede to the mystery without yielding to the temptation to make God understandable before believable.


C

Edited by Colter, 28 October 2009 - 04:57 PM.

[heshallreign]

Colter, I agree with most of what you said only due to the trinity doctrine is mixed with true statements. To address the error of the trinity, I think it best to direct you to some other threads that have been done well, as this may not be the forum to have a back and forth about the Trinity. I'm not opposed to discussing it as I get the sense youy and I would have some great comments. However, to avoid distracting from the thread....

If the Trinity were False

The Three persons of the Trinity

Jewishness and the trinity

Trinitarian Bias in the Bible

John and the Word

There were quite a bit more.

[Colter]

heshallreign, on Oct 28 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

Colter, I agree with most of what you said only due to the trinity doctrine is mixed with true statements. To address the error of the trinity, I think it best to direct you to some other threads that have been done well, as this may not be the forum to have a back and forth about the Trinity. I'm not opposed to discussing it as I get the sense youy and I would have some great comments. However, to avoid distracting from the thread....

If the Trinity were False

The Three persons of the Trinity

Jewishness and the trinity

Trinitarian Bias in the Bible

John and the Word

There were quite a bit more.

Thanks heshallreign,

I read through those links, that Evangelion is one smart dude! He did a good job of re-dismembering Fruchtenbaum 's arguments.

My belief in the divinity of Jesus as he still lives and reigns at the right hand of the Father is still in tact, if that's idolatry then I'm guilty as charged.


C

[Richie]

Colter, on Oct 28 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

My belief in the divinity of Jesus as he still lives and reigns at the right hand of the Father is still in tact, if that's idolatry then I'm guilty as charged.

And that's not something to worry about... because?

[Mercia2]

Colter, on Oct 28 2009, 01:27 PM, said:

I’m a different sort of Trinitarian, but believe in a Trinity to be sure. On the judgment day if I were accused of "idolatry" then I would call Jesus as my witness and ask him to restate what he said about where he came from, who he is/was, and what he said about returning to the right hand of the Father, having been given all power and authority in heaven and on earth.

I would use as my defense the fact that I put my trust in what Jesus taught (or the impression that he gave to billions of Christians past and present) as well as his enemies who herd him speak the same words and set out to destroy him accordingly.

If I have been mislead into idolatry, I was mislead by Jesus.....but had I stubbornly adhered to OT Judaism, I would have equally condemned him by the same letter of the law.




Colter

Colter, if it was such an issue Bible prophecy would have something to say about it, but Bible prophecy is instead concerned with the popes procuring worship and adoration that belongs to Jesus. It does not castagate Christians for calling Jesus God, not in a way it would if this was as big an issue as some think, but rather its overall narrative is condemning Christiandom for usurping Him with popes and cardinals and priests for taking His role. Having said that worshipping the image of a man hanging on a cross is idolatry. Think about this. How do we worship God or Jesus that cannot be seen? The answer is we adore WORDS, Gods Words that reveal, mainly through Jesus Gods character (the Divine Image), this is what we adore. Jesus manifested Gods love and Words like no other. So how else can we adore God except through Jesus? A distinction can be made between Jesus as the son of man in Gethsemane and Jesus where He says Himself "these words are not my own", if the Holy Spirit, who is God omnipresent can put words in an apostles mouth before the Sandherin, then how much more Lord Jesus who had the Holy Spirit in all fullness? and God is personified as a He as well but we are clearly told "God is Spirit", we are temples of God - literally (not as an abtract), if as an abstract then we are athiest gnostics. It is that simple. The fact it is intenionally made not clear in say the book of Revelation (and it is not, no matter what each camp say) must prompt all to ask why? The answer is as always it is a test of perception, spiritual (internal) or external (natural), God looks at man internally and expects us to do the same. The fact Lord Jesus was "given" all power speaks for itself, having said that as God has given Him all power then God has Himself annulled the idolatry, the popes think God has given them authority to rule over the Divine, not sanctioned by God, which is idolatry. But we do not worship a man, we worship Words, Gods Words which is spirit and truth. I am not a trinitarian, I do not like made up names. Someone once said I was 'Oneness', I didnt look it up, I have no need to. I believe in the triune plan of God, Abraham (the Father}, Isaac (the Son) and Jacob (the Spirit), 666 is mans plan, Iouses 888 is Gods. Finally, as Jesus has all power and authority to end life or immortalize it, He has the powers of God. I can tell you that for this reason angels speak adoringly of Jesus and so should we.

Edited by Mercia2, 29 October 2009 - 10:39 AM.

[Colter]

Quote

Colter, if it was such an issue Bible prophecy would have something to say about it, but Bible prophecy is instead concerned with the popes procuring worship and adoration that belongs to Jesus. It does not castagate Chritians for calling Jesus God, not in a way it would if this was as big an issue as some think, but rather its overall narrative is condemning Christiandom for usurping Him with popes and cardinals and priests for taking His role. Having said that worshipping the image of a man hanging on a cross is idolatry. Think about this. How do we worship God or Jesus that cannot be seen? The answer is we adore WORDS, Gods Words that reveal, mainly through Jesus Gods character (the Divine Image), this is what we adore. Jesus manifested Gods love and Words like no other. So how else can we adore God except through Jesus? A distinction can be made between Jesus as the son of man who in Gesthame and Jesus where He says Himself "these words are not my own", if the Holy Spirit, who is God omnipresent can put words in an apotles mouth before the Sandherin, then how much more Lord Jesus who had the Holy Spirit in all fullness? and God is personified as a He as well but we are clearly told "God is Spirit", we are temples of God - literally (not as an abtract), if as an abstract then we are athiest gnostics. It is that simple. The fact it is intenionally made not clear in say the book of Revelation (and it is not, no matter what each camp say) must prompt all to ask why? The answer is as always it is a test of perception, spiritual (imternal) or external (natural), God looks at man internally and expects us to do the same. The fact Lord Jesus was "given" all power speaks for itself, having said that as God has given Him all power then God has Himself annulled the idolatry, the popes think God has given them authority to rule ovr the Divine, not sanctioned by God, which is idolatry. But we do not worship a man, we worship Words, Gods Words which is spirit and truth. I am not a trinitarian, I do not like made up names. Someone once said I was 'Oneness', I didnt look it up, I have no need to. I believe is the triune plan of God, Abraham (the Father}, Isaac (the Son) and Jacob (the Spirit), 666 is mans plan, Iouses 888 is Gods. Finally, as Jesus has all power and authority to end life or immortalize it, He has the powers of God. I can tell you that for this reason angels speak adoringly of Jesus and so should we.

Well said Marcia2, I like the term "adore" or "adoration".

C

[Colter]

Richie, on Oct 28 2009, 07:02 PM, said:

Colter, on Oct 28 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

My belief in the divinity of Jesus as he still lives and reigns at the right hand of the Father is still in tact, if that's idolatry then I'm guilty as charged.

And that's not something to worry about... because?

Well, it's Gods judgments that I’m concerned with, the rules of various religious groups are not binding. The Jews used their own rules to condem Jesus.

C

[heshallreign]

Mercia2, on Oct 28 2009, 03:45 PM, said:

Colter, if it was such an issue Bible prophecy would have something to say about it

The first thing that I remembered (so not to say prophesy is mute on it) was Jesus' words.

Mark 12

Quote

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

[Mercia2]

Here is an intensional paradox for everyone.

In what context is the Holy Spirit "another" heteros or different, if verse 17 says this...

Observe words in red and where they lead you...

Quote

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:17

If the Spirit of truth is not the Holy Spirit but just[reductionism] our Godly mindset then the following verses prove the gnostic athiests correct, (a view Composer was close to when we last spoke), it has to be one or the other...

Quote

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:18

Who is coming?

Parakletos (g3875) par-ak'-lay-tos; an intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.

Quote

But the Comforter, which is the Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, [Jesus Christ] he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Jn.14:26

Quote

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart Jn.16:7

In Old Testament symbolism, the Messiah is called the arm of God, the Holy spirit is called the hand of God, this is Gods own imagery He wants us to ponder. An arm and a hand do not exist autonomously of one another.

Quote

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. John 14:10

Jesus is not doing the miracles, God is. Where does Jesus say God is? "the Father that dwelleth in me".
Their is only two ways to read the above. Gnostic athiesm or as it reads

God is "Spirit", the Holy Spirit was dwelling in Jesus, "in all fullness" (not an abstract as abstracts cannot do miracles) God was literally in Him and impressing Words in His mind as at the Sanderhin. This is because Jesus the man had so subdued His own will God could work and speak through Him. We are all supposed to do the same. If Jesus is the "temple of God" because God/the Holy Spirit was in Him then how can we be temples of God unless we have the same? Is it enough to just live a good life as the Buddhists do that? Yet this is the prevailing reductionst liberal view. It is oh so attractive as it means we never have to truly crucify our own will and surrender our free will by asking for the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13) and be real temples of God, having the same Spirit that raised Jesus which was more than just a mindset, but the power of God. Instead we sort of surrender some of the thinking of the flesh but never really want to let go, so we make our convenient excuses.

It sometimes seems to me all religions of men are formed to cunningly devise theology to get out of doing this. Because the shocking truth is they do not really want to. God is not going to come to anyone and infringe our precious free will unless we invite Him in. Think about it. No one in organised religion does this they have all devised ways to get out of it. In Catholic and Anglican rituals it is the priest (not you) who will say something like 'may the Holy Spirit be on you all". Who does he think he is to command the Holy Spirit where to go? That is not going to work is it, as the point is we "ask" (surrender/crucify our will) not some priest half heartedly even though no one asked him to.

Look also at the Pentacostals and 'spirit filled churches" are they not the biggest fakes going? How many of them go alone to their bedroom and in private and in sincerity and after repentance (with feeling), pray, "not by my will but your will be done" and then "ask" (Luke 11:13), for the Holy Spirit? How many? People think lots do this, but it is so very few. This is the big secret of Christendom, few ever truly crucify their own will so God can talk through them. But for those who have He does and people should listen. As the Sandherin listened. Not that those hardened by the wickedness and cunning of the thinking of the flesh will want to listen.

The Pentacostals instead like to put on a show for each other, foaming at the mouth and falling backwards, that is their big charade to avoid actually ever truly crucifying their own free will and in private and in utter humility surrender their will in private to God and "ask" for the Holy Spirit. Instead they put on a big charade and hope to delude each other while the Bible gets ignored. God is not interested in being represented like this.

And then others, albeit sincere lovers of the Word, but who do not (and cannot) give God the credit for their dogma/understanding and for reasons of their own intellectual gratiication, never wish to crucify that aspect of the thinking of the flesh by saying they can see with spiritual eyes without the Holy Spirit/God, so seek to confuse the effects of the Holy Spirit in the context of witnessing gifts (a manifestation only) which have indeed ceased as meaning the Holy Spirit does not indwell those who "ask" anymore as if the sum total of the Holy Spiit/God is witnessing gifts!

Wisdom and knowledge of Gods word is also a manifestation of the Spirit but is not a witnessing gift. Infact I have noticed those without can barely understand and rarely grasp the significance. Although they cant know it. Saying the Holy Spirit does not indwell today is the biggest obstacle to the Kingdom of God with no temple (as we are the temples) as is possible. In the true sense of the meaning unless we take the inevitable gnostic athiest view that God is just our higher mindset.

It is true that God withdraws His Spirit from self willed man but do you really think if your conciounce is good and your heart is pleasing to God, if you asked in private, accepting the only manifestation will be wisdom and the manifestation of witnessing gifts have ended, that He will not fulfil His Word? according to His own Word (Luke 11:13)? I tell you the truth. When I asked in private in 1999, 2 hours before a Christadelpian lecture, the Holy Spirit/Jesus/God came to me and powerfully convicted me of my sins, brought me in to remembrance of what was said to me as a child but veiled until this moment and everything said about the Holy Spirit came to pass in me. This is my testimony to you. over the next few days, a fog cleared from my eyes and I could understand and see things in the Bible that I could not come close to properly understand before, though I thought I did. And I gloried God, as we are supposed to. Now God could use me and the instructions were given. But do you not you know if you really want and your heart is pleasing in Gods sight that you all could have this as well if you really wanted?
Let go

Edited by Mercia2, 29 October 2009 - 10:33 AM.

[Colter]

Marcia2,


That was another good post IMHO, we have similar insights into the "spirit of truth". The duel nature of Jesus, as realized in his many sayings, indicate that he and the Father rule as one. I don't see how that is "idolatrous".

Thanks

C

[Mercia2]

Colter, not that is matters (I think we had this conversation a few years ago), the name is mErcia, which is a old english region in the middle of England. I think Marcia is an American female name?

Quote

That was another good post IMHO, we have similar insights into the "spirit of truth". The duel nature of Jesus, as realized in his many sayings, indicate that he and the Father rule as one. I don't see how that is "idolatrous".

Yes, although while no one has the Holy Spirit "in all fullness" like Lord Jesus, we all (who are truly born again), have that "dual nature".

[Richie]

Mercia2, on Oct 29 2009, 02:15 PM, said:

Colter, not that is matters (I think we had this conversation a few years ago), the name is mErcia, which is a old english region in the middle of England. I think Marcia is an American female name?

Don't worry, he calls Evangelion Eve. It's just his quaint misspellings done accidentally on purpose.

[Mercia2]

Richie, on Oct 29 2009, 06:17 PM, said:

Mercia2, on Oct 29 2009, 02:15 PM, said:

Colter, not that is matters (I think we had this conversation a few years ago), the name is mErcia, which is a old english region in the middle of England. I think Marcia is an American female name?

Don't worry, he calls Evangelion Eve. It's just his quaint misspellings done accidentally on purpose.

ok I didnt know that. Marcia will do fine Colter.

[heshallreign]

Colter, on Oct 29 2009, 10:01 AM, said:

Marcia2,


That was another good post IMHO, we have similar insights into the "spirit of truth". The duel nature of Jesus, as realized in his many sayings, indicate that he and the Father rule as one. I don't see how that is "idolatrous".

Thanks

C

I am not striking a battle of verses with you, but you said you don't see how worshiping the trinity is idolatrous. Here's a few reasons.

I am the LORD, there is none else, no God besides me – Duet 4:35, 6:4, 32:39, 1 Ki 18:39, Neh 9:6, Ps 83:18, 86:10, Isa 43:10-12, 44:6-8, 45:5, Zech 14:9, Jn 5:44, Mal 2:10, 1 Cor 8:4,6, Eph 4:6, 1 Tim 2:5

Trinity belief says there is another God there....Jesus.

Hear O’ Israel the LORD your God is one – Duet 6:4, Mark 12:29, Gal 3:20, Rom 3:30, Ja 2:19

Trinity belief warps this to fit their 1+1+1=1 theory. As I showed in my previous post "One" does not mean 3 in one kind of oneness. In these verses it is just that, one, singular, lone, by himself. If you take this to include Jesus...you must use the same rule for Jesus' prayer about the apostles/believers.

God is immortal – Psalm 90:2, 1 Tim 1:17, 1 Tim 6:16

Jesus died. If taken away from him, worship is in vain. If said that Jesus (God) was human, he couldn't die....if he did die for those 3 days, all flesh would have perished. If God removes his breath...all life perishes. How was God ruling in the womb?

God is not a man – Hosea 11:9
God does not change – Mal 3:6
Jesus was born – Matt 1:21
Jesus was/is God’s servant – Matt 12:18, Acts 3:13,26, 4:27
Jesus died – Matt 12:40, 16:21

People saw Jesus – John 1:14 (God cannot be seen) - John 1:18

There are over 80 more I can add from my list but ending on the last statement. If Jesus was God on Earth.....why does 1Jn 4:12 say "No one has ever seen God"?

[Mercia2]

Quote

God is not a man – Hosea 11:9

So you see Jesus as a man? flesh and blood and not the Spirit of God/Divine Image? Depends if you are thinking externally or internally. Read the verses I quoted.

[heshallreign]

Mercia2, on Oct 29 2009, 03:04 PM, said:

Quote

God is not a man – Hosea 11:9

So you see Jesus as a man? flesh and blood and not the Spirit of God/Divine Image? Depends if you are thinking externally or internally. Read the verses I quoted.

He was God manifested, God unto us but not Very God. Moses was God unto Pharaoh. The judges were Gods unto Israel. Christ is now Spirit, raised up and seated at the right hand of the father.