29 replies to this topic

[Abishua]

Why did Jesus have to suffer such a horrific death?

Thoughts?

[nsr]

That was the Roman method of execution at the time.

I'm not sure what you are asking.

[Jeremy]

nsr, on Sep 28 2009, 06:11 PM, said:

That was the Roman method of execution at the time.

I think it was more than that, because the Scriptures speak of Jesus being "lifted up".

Abishua is asking why the manner of Jesus' death had to be so cruel and painful, and why God's purpose didn't allow for something quicker and cleaner.

[Abishua]

Jeremy, on Sep 28 2009, 12:19 PM, said:

nsr, on Sep 28 2009, 06:11 PM, said:

That was the Roman method of execution at the time.

I think it was more than that, because the Scriptures speak of Jesus being "lifted up".

Abishua is asking why the manner of Jesus' death had to be so cruel and painful, and why God's purpose didn't allow for something quicker and cleaner.

Exactly! I think those who believe in substitionary atonement would point to the sufferings endured by Christ as proof of their position.

[Guido]

Abishua, on Sep 28 2009, 01:26 PM, said:

Jeremy, on Sep 28 2009, 12:19 PM, said:

nsr, on Sep 28 2009, 06:11 PM, said:

That was the Roman method of execution at the time.

I think it was more than that, because the Scriptures speak of Jesus being "lifted up".

Abishua is asking why the manner of Jesus' death had to be so cruel and painful, and why God's purpose didn't allow for something quicker and cleaner.

Exactly! I think those who believe in substitionary atonement would point to the sufferings endured by Christ as proof of their position.

I think it has to do with his dying under the curse of the law.

Gal 3:13 said:

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"

Also, in v.1 it says...

Quote

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

And, for 'evidently set forth', the NET footnote says,

Quote

Or 'publicly placarded,' 'set forth in a public proclamation'

Could it be that crucifiction was chosen by God because it was, more than any other form of execution, a public proclamation?

So, what then was the message that was placarded? What was 'evidently set forth?'

Gal 3:11 said:

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

The point of Gal 3 seems to be that the crucifiction had to be a public exhibition in order to clearly proclaim the principle that the just shall live by faith. That is, if a perfectly righteous man was, in the end, cursed by the law of Moses, then clearly no one can depend on the law for their salvation. Even Jesus himself was saved by faith.

Edited by Guido, 28 September 2009 - 06:13 PM.

[BDW]

I don't want to get into a debate about words and meanings but to me it highlights just the utter repugnance of God for sinful flesh. A horrible death highlights just how horrible our native state is to God if you can follow what I'm trying to say.

Thus IMHO a more painful and horrible death showed more fully God's righteousness in that it 1) showed how useless and repugnant our native state is to God, and 2) showed the absolute obedience of Christ that he was willing to suffer such a death to declare his Father's righteousness.

Okay I haven't worded that real well but I hope you get my drift...

[daysha]

BDW, on Sep 29 2009, 01:27 AM, said:

I don't want to get into a debate about words and meanings but to me it highlights just the utter repugnance of God for sinful flesh. A horrible death highlights just how horrible our native state is to God if you can follow what I'm trying to say.

Thus IMHO a more painful and horrible death showed more fully God's righteousness in that it 1) showed how useless and repugnant our native state is to God, and 2) showed the absolute obedience of Christ that he was willing to suffer such a death to declare his Father's righteousness.

Okay I haven't worded that real well but I hope you get my drift...

Hmm - not so sure really that is why. I was thinking, that, if God chose that particular type of death to show His repugnance of sinful flesh, then He'd have chosen a way worse more tortuous one than crucifixion, so I think that's not the reason.

Maybe it's sin-prone flesh (flesh = the brain)? We all have genetically inherited sinful tendencies from Adam - but I haven't come to the conclusion that our actual physical bodies as such are full of sin; nor are they 'clean' either. They're a "collection of atoms".

Gets a bit confusing, granted.

Maybe it's that our minds (brain) that are the problem - what we choose & decide: to please ourselves or please God.
Maybe it's that our minds (human nature that is in the brain?) are the battleground between what we know is right (from reading the Bible) and what we feel urged to do.

Am I on the right track here, folks? It's all a learning curve.  book_pages_turn_slower.gif   8.55K   0 downloads
Sorry for wandering off topic.

Edited by dayshakiwi, 29 September 2009 - 10:35 PM.

[Flappie]

dayshakiwi, on Sep 29 2009, 11:19 AM, said:

Hmm - not so sure really that is why. I was thinking, that, if God chose that particular type of death to show His repugnance of sinful flesh, then He'd have chosen a way worse more tortuous one than crucifixion, so I think that's not the reason.

I'm not sure there are that many way worse more tortuous ones than crucifixion...


Anyway, the main reason I believe is the impact it has on us. If the horrible painful death of an innocent man, who gave his life for us, does not touch our hearts, nothing will.

[BDW]

Flappie, on Sep 29 2009, 11:57 AM, said:

dayshakiwi, on Sep 29 2009, 11:19 AM, said:

Hmm - not so sure really that is why. I was thinking, that, if God chose that particular type of death to show His repugnance of sinful flesh, then He'd have chosen a way worse more tortuous one than crucifixion, so I think that's not the reason.

I'm not sure there are that many way worse more tortuous ones than crucifixion...


Anyway, the main reason I believe is the impact it has on us. If the horrible painful death of an innocent man, who gave his life for us, does not touch our hearts, nothing will.

Exactly. I meant to say that. The real power of the Atonement (if that's what you like to call it - you do have to give it some name) is the moral compulsion we should feel. We should feel compelled to follow his example of TOTAL self-sacrifice carried to the extreme.

To Daysha:
Didn't express myself real well (was only just out of bed to be honest ). I wasn't suggesting they were the primary reasons for his death in that manner but they do strike me as possibly valid points.

[R2D2]

BDW,

While I agree that God cannot dwell with sin prone flesh, I'm not sure if the severity of Jesus' death is related to that. Isn't this similar to what the catholics argue? The whole thing with the movie Passion of the Christ was the scene where Jesus was beaten up by the Romans lasted 40 mins and was very graphic and I heard this was because of their belief that Jesus (as a substitute for people's sin) was experiencing the wrath of God for the sins of the world.

Any verses that you feel support your thoughts?

[Richie]

Flappie, on Sep 28 2009, 06:27 PM, said:

dayshakiwi, on Sep 29 2009, 11:19 AM, said:

Hmm - not so sure really that is why. I was thinking, that, if God chose that particular type of death to show His repugnance of sinful flesh, then He'd have chosen a way worse more tortuous one than crucifixion, so I think that's not the reason.

I'm not sure there are that many way worse more tortuous ones than crucifixion...


Anyway, the main reason I believe is the impact it has on us. If the horrible painful death of an innocent man, who gave his life for us, does not touch our hearts, nothing will.

Hebrews 9:13-14.

[daysha]

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and pro-vided ritual purity,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God. New English Translation

Purify our consciences. Touch our hearts.

[heshallreign]

This has mostly been said by a few of you, but I shall still say it!!

As said, the execution method of crucifixion was not uncommon in the land, it was a perfect way of showing the problem. He killed sin in the flesh. The flesh, the temple that he would break down and re-build.

A wise brother, who finished the race this year, whom I can't wait to see in the Kingdom, once said to me "The serpent will strike his heel, but he (Jesus) will crush his head" "What's in the head?...The mind!" I think of all the instruments that cause sin, the mind, the heart, the tongue, etc... those were publically killed and Jesus bore that. And we should too, not so we don't have to. It is shameful and people mock you, but you obey God nonetheless.

The torture isn't required, but the same act is...kill the flesh!!!

It doesn't sound "substitutionary" when we are asked to pick up our cross as well and follow him, if we love him!

Edited by heshallreign, 29 September 2009 - 01:28 PM.

[Huldah]

I find it an equally difficult question to answer, how an organised and law-breaking (by standards of Jewish law) yet legitimised (by Roman law and lots of crowd pressure) murder should be counted by God as a sacrifice, when God was so specific about how sacrifices should be carried out under the law. Or how God abhored the child sacrifices carried out in the Valley of Hinnom, saying that such a thing he 'never commanded or entered His mind' but yet He required the death of His Son. I would truly love to understand that.

[Huldah]

Flappie, on Sep 29 2009, 03:27 AM, said:

I'm not sure there are that many way worse more tortuous ones than crucifixion...

The story of the Levite's concubine has always horrified me along with sections of Joshua and Judges, and I'm not 100% sure that Jepthah's daughter wasn't actually sacrificed although I've been given some good reading material on it. That's not to downplay the crucifixion, but humans have been experts in hurting one another since Cain.

[heshallreign]

I don't think it was the murder that pleased God at all. It was the faith of Jesus. Remember, Jesus had to have faith that God would raise him and trust he wasn't going through this for nothing. Jesus was most likely tempted to retaliate, I don't know, but he remained sinless. Jesus sacrificed himself, he gave his body over to the murderers and trusted God would deliver him. The murderers have and will be punished for this and we know what happened and will happen to Jesus!!!

[Davvers]

"God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed."

I think this gets to the heart of it, and the NET brings it out really well. The purpose of the public display is so that he is clearly visible for us to look to as our mercy seat, or the place where we can be reconciled to God when our heart and conscience believe.

D

[Tarkus]

I think I object to the idea that Jesus died horrifically to make a statement about the repugnance of his sin-prone flesh.

The repugnant flesh on display in the crucifixion is the mass of humanity that called for his death, cursed him, mocked him, and inflicted every indignity available on him. That showed what sinful flesh thinks of righteousness when it comes calling.

Jesus died a nasty death because death is nasty, and that particular death was chosen by nasty people. People not so very different from ourselves, actually.

[Abishua]

Wow! Great responses!

Thank you!

Edited by Abishua, 29 September 2009 - 10:32 PM.

[nsr]

Tarkus, on Sep 29 2009, 03:33 PM, said:

The repugnant flesh on display in the crucifixion is the mass of humanity that called for his death, cursed him, mocked him, and inflicted every indignity available on him. That showed what sinful flesh thinks of righteousness when it comes calling.

[R2D2]

Tarkus, on Sep 30 2009, 12:33 AM, said:

I think I object to the idea that Jesus died horrifically to make a statement about the repugnance of his sin-prone flesh.

The repugnant flesh on display in the crucifixion is the mass of humanity that called for his death, cursed him, mocked him, and inflicted every indignity available on him. That showed what sinful flesh thinks of righteousness when it comes calling.

Jesus died a nasty death because death is nasty, and that particular death was chosen by nasty people. People not so very different from ourselves, actually.

Great points.

[daysha]

R2D2, on Sep 29 2009, 11:03 PM, said:

Tarkus, on Sep 30 2009, 12:33 AM, said:

I think I object to the idea that Jesus died horrifically to make a statement about the repugnance of his sin-prone flesh.

The repugnant flesh on display in the crucifixion is the mass of humanity that called for his death, cursed him, mocked him, and inflicted every indignity available on him. That showed what sinful flesh thinks of righteousness when it comes calling.

Jesus died a nasty death because death is nasty, and that particular death was chosen by nasty people. People not so very different from ourselves, actually.

Great points.

[BDW]

I have to second what has been said, particularly by Tarkus and qualify my own statement. I don't believe there's something in our flesh that needs atonement as such. What I was trying to say is that such a horrific death is all that we really deserve in our natural state.

[Huldah]

heshallreign, on Sep 29 2009, 03:27 PM, said:

I don't think it was the murder that pleased God at all. It was the faith of Jesus. Remember, Jesus had to have faith that God would raise him and trust he wasn't going through this for nothing. Jesus was most likely tempted to retaliate, I don't know, but he remained sinless. Jesus sacrificed himself, he gave his body over to the murderers and trusted God would deliver him. The murderers have and will be punished for this and we know what happened and will happen to Jesus!!!

That makes more sense to me than the idea that we all deserve such a nasty form of punishment because of our sinful nature. There have been some horrific murders done in history and I hate to think that people actually "deserve" any form of murder. The way I see it is that we deserve to be mortal.

[daysha]

Huldah, on Sep 30 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

heshallreign, on Sep 29 2009, 03:27 PM, said:

I don't think it was the murder that pleased God at all. It was the faith of Jesus. Remember, Jesus had to have faith that God would raise him and trust he wasn't going through this for nothing. Jesus was most likely tempted to retaliate, I don't know, but he remained sinless. Jesus sacrificed himself, he gave his body over to the murderers and trusted God would deliver him. The murderers have and will be punished for this and we know what happened and will happen to Jesus!!!

That makes more sense to me than the idea that we all deserve such a nasty form of punishment because of our sinful nature. There have been some horrific murders done in history and I hate to think that people actually "deserve" any form of murder. The way I see it is that we deserve to be mortal.

Agree.

[Jeppo]

Flappie said:

I'm not sure there are that many way worse more tortuous ones than crucifixion...

Not as bad as something I just thought of.....................anyway, you could opt for this method of execution:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawing
Given a choice crucifixion seems positively genteel.

YMMV.

[Flappie]

Jeppo, on Oct 1 2009, 03:13 PM, said:

Flappie said:

I'm not sure there are that many way worse more tortuous ones than crucifixion...

Not as bad as something I just thought of.....................anyway, you could opt for this method of execution:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawing
Given a choice crucifixion seems positively genteel.

YMMV.

Possibly. Consider that part of my post withdrawn.

[nsr]

Boy, that's grim

[mji]

Scaphism or death by 1000 cuts are also very sick, nevertheless crucifixion is a shocking public spectacle as others have said.

Perhaps the asking of the question means we might already on the way to an answer.

[Richie]

Tarkus, on Sep 29 2009, 07:33 AM, said:

I think I object to the idea that Jesus died horrifically to make a statement about the repugnance of his sin-prone flesh.

The repugnant flesh on display in the crucifixion is the mass of humanity that called for his death, cursed him, mocked him, and inflicted every indignity available on him. That showed what sinful flesh thinks of righteousness when it comes calling.

Jesus died a nasty death because death is nasty, and that particular death was chosen by nasty people. People not so very different from ourselves, actually.

Yes, that's very well put.

But we also need to understand that Jesus crucified the flesh in the sense that he never submitted to the same mindset on display by those who put him to death. That mindset came from the same inklings of the flesh which Jesus had, now lifted up on the cross.