4 replies to this topic

[Beowulf]

I posted this on another forum. I would like to have some thoughts from here.

My position on this topic is what I believe is the mistranslation and understanding of logos/word.

In the Interlinear (http://www.scripture...Greek_Index.htm) John 1:1 is translated literally:

1:1 In original (beginning) was the saying (word/utterance) and the saying(word/utterance) was toward (in relation to) the God and God was the saying (word/utterance).

1:2 This was in original (beginning) toward (in relation to) the God.

1:14 And the saying (word/utterance) flesh became and booths (tabernacles) in (among) us and we gaze the esteem (glory) of him esteem (glory) as of only generated (only begotten one) beside father full of grace and truth.

This would mean the indefinite article "a" does not belong in John 1:1 because the word/utterance/saying was God.
{λόγος = oration, reason, speech, word
logos}
It belonged to and originated with him just as it shows, as an utterance, not personified.

Verse 2: is poorly translated, IMO, by the NWT which attempts to personify "word" with the use of "this one."(For any JW posters)

Verse 14: That utterance, saying(what was said) word became flesh manifest as Jesus.

So the personification of the term logos/word did not happen until verse 14 when Jesus became flesh. I am not aware of any other place in scripture where Jesus was identified as the Word-personified prior to his becoming flesh as most trinitarians and even non-trinitarians tend to believe. The interlinear seems to show the "word" is simply the utterance (or decree) of God. The finality of that specific utterance manifested itself as Jesus in the flesh. So then in essence Jesus became the "word" or the fulfillment of that "word."

I'm not saying Jesus was not a spokesman for his father prior to this, I'm just trying to get an accurate translation understanding with the available information.

This does not seem to change anything in John chapter 1 if you read it through with this understanding. It seems similar to Gen. when "God proceeded to say..." then it became so. The saying or word spoken was God, even though the creation became manifest through his son as Col. 1:16 indicates.

Probably not a perfect illustration, but one to try and highlight what I am getting at:

Example: President Obama's word on the supreme court vacancy is that it will be filled.
The president's word/saying/decree is what was spoken.
That word/saying/decree issued from and originated with him. It is his word.
That word/saying/decree became manifest in his introduction of Sotomayor.
The word became manifest, or fulfilled by the appointment of Sotomayor.

Please don't focus too much on the illustration. Most people I have discussed this with have to take a little time for it to register. If you can, look at the Greek interlinear or other direct reference material before responding.

Thank you in advance for any replies.

[Lectron]

Beowulf, on Aug 16 2009, 01:34 AM, said:

I posted this on another forum. I would like to have some thoughts from here.

My position on this topic is what I believe is the mistranslation and understanding of logos/word.

In the Interlinear (http://www.scripture...Greek_Index.htm) John 1:1 is translated literally:

1:1 In original (beginning) was the saying (word/utterance) and the saying(word/utterance) was toward (in relation to) the God and God was the saying (word/utterance).

1:2 This was in original (beginning) toward (in relation to) the God.

1:14 And the saying (word/utterance) flesh became and booths (tabernacles) in (among) us and we gaze the esteem (glory) of him esteem (glory) as of only generated (only begotten one) beside father full of grace and truth.

This would mean the indefinite article "a" does not belong in John 1:1 because the word/utterance/saying was God.
{λόγος = oration, reason, speech, word
logos}
It belonged to and originated with him just as it shows, as an utterance, not personified.

Verse 2: is poorly translated, IMO, by the NWT which attempts to personify "word" with the use of "this one."(For any JW posters)

Verse 14: That utterance, saying(what was said) word became flesh manifest as Jesus.

So the personification of the term logos/word did not happen until verse 14 when Jesus became flesh. I am not aware of any other place in scripture where Jesus was identified as the Word-personified prior to his becoming flesh as most trinitarians and even non-trinitarians tend to believe. The interlinear seems to show the "word" is simply the utterance (or decree) of God. The finality of that specific utterance manifested itself as Jesus in the flesh. So then in essence Jesus became the "word" or the fulfillment of that "word."

I'm not saying Jesus was not a spokesman for his father prior to this, I'm just trying to get an accurate translation understanding with the available information.

This does not seem to change anything in John chapter 1 if you read it through with this understanding. It seems similar to Gen. when "God proceeded to say..." then it became so. The saying or word spoken was God, even though the creation became manifest through his son as Col. 1:16 indicates.

Probably not a perfect illustration, but one to try and highlight what I am getting at:

Example: President Obama's word on the supreme court vacancy is that it will be filled.
The president's word/saying/decree is what was spoken.
That word/saying/decree issued from and originated with him. It is his word.
That word/saying/decree became manifest in his introduction of Sotomayor.
The word became manifest, or fulfilled by the appointment of Sotomayor.

Please don't focus too much on the illustration. Most people I have discussed this with have to take a little time for it to register. If you can, look at the Greek interlinear or other direct reference material before responding.

Thank you in advance for any replies.

While you acknowledge that Jesus was the word made flesh, you don't rule out an existence of Jesus prior to the event the word was made flesh, why is this?

[Beowulf]

Lectron, on Aug 16 2009, 04:23 PM, said:

While you acknowledge that Jesus was the word made flesh, you don't rule out an existence of Jesus prior to the event the word was made flesh, why is this?

Because of what Jesus himself said at John 8:58. When he stated that he existed before the Abraham they were talking about here. The Greek word used is defined this way: to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

Also the scripture I included in my post at Col.

[Mark Taunton]

Beowulf, on Aug 17 2009, 01:23 AM, said:

Lectron, on Aug 16 2009, 04:23 PM, said:

While you acknowledge that Jesus was the word made flesh, you don't rule out an existence of Jesus prior to the event the word was made flesh, why is this?

Because of what Jesus himself said at John 8:58. When he stated that he existed before the Abraham they were talking about here. The Greek word used is defined this way: to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

Also the scripture I included in my post at Col.

But Jesus didn't say "before Abraham was, I was", which would have the implication you make - "he existed" (in the past). He said "before Abraham was [or, became], I am" (in the present), which does not have that implication.

[jerzy]

The Trinitarians make us to believe that the life eternal is subject to belief in Trinity and divinity of Jesus.

None of this is found in the scriptures.

This is what they wrestle with.

It has been stated categorically

- that the true worshippers will worship the Father Joh 4:23
- that every man that heard and learned of the Father is drown to Jesus by the Father John 6:44-45+65
- that man will pray to the Father Mt 6:9
- that the Father manifested His attributes through Jesus John 14:10, Ac 2:22
- that the life eternal is subject to the belief that the Father has sent Jesus to save man Jon 3:16
- that the life eternal is subject to the belief that the Father is the only true God or divine entity.
- that Jesus provides access to the Father the only true God John 14:6, Eph 2:18
- that the Father has forgiven His true worshippers their sin by placing it on Jesus 2Co 5:18-21
- that the Father has delivered His true worshippers from the power of darkness and placed in His Kingdom ruled by Jesus Col 1:12-13

God bless