64 replies to this topic

[Beowulf]

I've read that Christadelphians believe Satan or the Devil (I'm guessing you see him as one in the same, if not please let me know) is basically the sinful inclination of mankind and not a former angel.

If this is the case, Who entered in among God and the other angels in Job 1:6?

Here it said Satan came from roving about in the earth. This Satan then went on to be questioned by God. He also challenged God. He was capable of inflicting physical harm to a human, without knowledge by that human.

There are a lot of interpersonal attributes and actions by this Satan mentioned in Job including communication. How could he be anything but a spiritual creation which had the ability to be in the presence of God and take physical action upon a man without knowledge of that man?

[Richie]

There are several possible interpretations regarding the Satan of Job:

1. It was a jealous member of Job's congregation.
2. It was one (or all) of the three friends.
3. It was his wife.
4. It was an angel who wanted to test Job.
5. Job is a play and not based on an actual person and Satan is just a character in the play.

In other words you can't decide on fundamental doctrine based on the Satan in Job. If you look at other occurrences of Satan in Scripture you'll fast realize it usually (and I think always) has nothing whatsoever to do with a fallen angel.

[Beowulf]

Richie, on Aug 15 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

There are several possible interpretations regarding the Satan of Job:

1. It was a jealous member of Job's congregation.
2. It was one (or all) of the three friends.
3. It was his wife.
4. It was an angel who wanted to test Job.
5. Job is a play and not based on an actual person and Satan is just a character in the play.

In other words you can't decide on fundamental doctrine based on the Satan in Job. If you look at other occurrences of Satan in Scripture you'll fast realize it usually (and I think always) has nothing whatsoever to do with a fallen angel.

There may be "several" interpretations, but I do not see any validity in the ones stated here. I'm not even sure if you are serious with this reply.
Replies 1-4 all reference a personification of an individual addressed as Satan. To correlate Satan with any of these people accurately, evidence of such would be needed, not guessing. And again, it was someone who could be in the presence of God himself.

If 4 was correct, I'd need to see a "second witness" to verify that a loyal angel would ascribe impropriety on God's part in his relationship with men. Job 1:9-11

5. I've never heard that one before. I have seen where something was stated to be an "illustration" or a parable, and even a song, in scripture; never have I heard of a bible book being a play. Is there any others which you feel are simply plays?

As far as the occurances of Satan or the Devil in scripture, they seem to regularly attest to a personage. I won't list them all, but Zec. 3:1 shows this plainly enough.

Edited by Beowulf, 16 August 2009 - 03:00 AM.

[Richie]

Beowulf, on Aug 15 2009, 07:59 PM, said:

Richie, on Aug 15 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

There are several possible interpretations regarding the Satan of Job:

1. It was a jealous member of Job's congregation.
2. It was one (or all) of the three friends.
3. It was his wife.
4. It was an angel who wanted to test Job.
5. Job is a play and not based on an actual person and Satan is just a character in the play.

In other words you can't decide on fundamental doctrine based on the Satan in Job. If you look at other occurrences of Satan in Scripture you'll fast realize it usually (and I think always) has nothing whatsoever to do with a fallen angel.

There may be "several" interpretations, but I do not see any validity in the ones stated here.

I didn't think you would. I am just stating some that have come up over the years. I don't place any validity in your interpretation either. So that was just to let you know that other Bible students have come up with different opinions.

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I'm not even sure if you are serious with this reply.

I am very serious. I am not sure who the Satan is in the story, and I don't think it actually matters for the story to have value.

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Replies 1-4 all reference a personification of an individual addressed as Satan. To correlate Satan with any of these people accurately, evidence of such would be needed, not guessing. And again, it was someone who could be in the presence of God himself.

Well men and woman are in the presence of God throughout Scripture. Men like Abraham and Moses for example. So it's no stretch to say the Satan in Job was a human being. They might be guesses but they are educated guesses. I would say that saying the Satan is some sort of wicked angel is even more guesswork.

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If 4 was correct, I'd need to see a "second witness" to verify that a loyal angel would ascribe impropriety on God's part in his relationship with men. Job 1:9-11

Impropriety might be too strong a word. But angels don't know everything - see I Peter 1 for instance.

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5. I've never heard that one before. I have seen where something was stated to be an "illustration" or a parable, and even a song, in scripture; never have I heard of a bible book being a play. Is there any others which you feel are simply plays?

I don't think so. But it's an interesting idea.

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As far as the occurances of Satan or the Devil in scripture, they seem to regularly attest to a personage. I won't list them all, but Zec. 3:1 shows this plainly enough.

How does Zechariah 3 show anything plainly? In that chapter there is also someone called the branch and a stone with seven eyes on it. Carry on through Zechariah and you'll see equally symbolic language. You can't take symbolic language at face value, I am sure you agree. So why say the Satan in this chapter is a personage at all? Maybe it refers to a group of people (that's what I think) or a concept that refers to an adversarial spirit (which I think the group of people had, i.e. the enemies against Israel in the days of Ezra)? Why do you say it refers to a personage and what links this personage in your mind with the individual in Job?

If you wouldn't mind I'd like you to list all the occurrences of the Hebrew words for devil and Satan in the OT and tell me what they are talking about. Then I can get a better idea of what you think the devil and Satan refer to.

[Beowulf]

Richie, on Aug 15 2009, 09:29 PM, said:

Beowulf, on Aug 15 2009, 07:59 PM, said:

Richie, on Aug 15 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

There are several possible interpretations regarding the Satan of Job:

1. It was a jealous member of Job's congregation.
2. It was one (or all) of the three friends.
3. It was his wife.
4. It was an angel who wanted to test Job.
5. Job is a play and not based on an actual person and Satan is just a character in the play.

In other words you can't decide on fundamental doctrine based on the Satan in Job. If you look at other occurrences of Satan in Scripture you'll fast realize it usually (and I think always) has nothing whatsoever to do with a fallen angel.

There may be "several" interpretations, but I do not see any validity in the ones stated here.

I didn't think you would. I am just stating some that have come up over the years. I don't place any validity in your interpretation either. So that was just to let you know that other Bible students have come up with different opinions.

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I'm not even sure if you are serious with this reply.

I am very serious. I am not sure who the Satan is in the story, and I don't think it actually matters for the story to have value.

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Replies 1-4 all reference a personification of an individual addressed as Satan. To correlate Satan with any of these people accurately, evidence of such would be needed, not guessing. And again, it was someone who could be in the presence of God himself.

Well men and woman are in the presence of God throughout Scripture. Men like Abraham and Moses for example. So it's no stretch to say the Satan in Job was a human being. They might be guesses but they are educated guesses. I would say that saying the Satan is some sort of wicked angel is even more guesswork.

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If 4 was correct, I'd need to see a "second witness" to verify that a loyal angel would ascribe impropriety on God's part in his relationship with men. Job 1:9-11

Impropriety might be too strong a word. But angels don't know everything - see I Peter 1 for instance.

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5. I've never heard that one before. I have seen where something was stated to be an "illustration" or a parable, and even a song, in scripture; never have I heard of a bible book being a play. Is there any others which you feel are simply plays?

I don't think so. But it's an interesting idea.

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As far as the occurances of Satan or the Devil in scripture, they seem to regularly attest to a personage. I won't list them all, but Zec. 3:1 shows this plainly enough.

How does Zechariah 3 show anything plainly? In that chapter there is also someone called the branch and a stone with seven eyes on it. Carry on through Zechariah and you'll see equally symbolic language. You can't take symbolic language at face value, I am sure you agree. So why say the Satan in this chapter is a personage at all? Maybe it refers to a group of people (that's what I think) or a concept that refers to an adversarial spirit (which I think the group of people had, i.e. the enemies against Israel in the days of Ezra)? Why do you say it refers to a personage and what links this personage in your mind with the individual in Job?

If you wouldn't mind I'd like you to list all the occurrences of the Hebrew words for devil and Satan in the OT and tell me what they are talking about. Then I can get a better idea of what you think the devil and Satan refer to.

I'm not going to go through a concordance and list out all of the occurances for devil and satan. My original post will suffice for now.

I'm not going to cut down your replies to my question as you did.(not that that is offensive or anything, I just don't see the point)

To identify a personage, and why having an accurate idea of who satan is can be found in 2Co 11:13 "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as Christ's apostles.
2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 It is no great thing therefore if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." The comparison here is of identifiable individuals. Christs apostles and satans servants. There is no convolution here.

I also do not believe Jesus was having a personal crisis while being tempted. I don't believe Jesus was tempted to worship himself.

I guess we'll just disagree as to Job. I would still like thoughts from other posters.

[Jeremy]

Beowulf, on Aug 16 2009, 03:59 AM, said:

There may be "several" interpretations, but I do not see any validity in the ones stated here. I'm not even sure if you are serious with this reply.
Replies 1-4 all reference a personification of an individual addressed as Satan. To correlate Satan with any of these people accurately, evidence of such would be needed, not guessing. And again, it was someone who could be in the presence of God himself.

If 4 was correct, I'd need to see a "second witness" to verify that a loyal angel would ascribe impropriety on God's part in his relationship with men. Job 1:9-11

5. I've never heard that one before. I have seen where something was stated to be an "illustration" or a parable, and even a song, in scripture; never have I heard of a bible book being a play. Is there any others which you feel are simply plays?

As far as the occurances of Satan or the Devil in scripture, they seem to regularly attest to a personage. I won't list them all, but Zec. 3:1 shows this plainly enough.

If I understand this post correctly, you're saying you don't agree with these suggestions because you've never heard them before. Is that a fair reading?

[jerzy]

I am not a Christadelphian and find the story about the fallen angel - Satan disturbing. About 5 000 years ago ancient Egyptians believed that there was a good god Horus and a bad god Set who was developed into the modern Satan.

People strip God of His glory and allocate it to the pagan god Satan.

I have posted a three part thread "In search of Satan". This is an extract relating to Satan from the OT Part 1. I would like to suggest reading all three parts to have a broader understanding of this issue.

“Satan” in the book of Job refers to a person. We are told that Job was perfect and upright. God blessed him for this abundantly. So there were some who envied him. They had controversy so they presented themselves “before God” or God’s anointed persons to discuss unfair blessings granted to Job.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Deu 19:17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;

A son of God is every one to whom the word of God came

Psa 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Psa 82:2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Psa 82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
Psa 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

The accuser (Hebrew word “Satan) was also among them. If it was Satan then how did he became a friend of God? We are told that he is God’s grant enemy. The rest is simple. The adversary of Job “acted” the way as Moses or Samson did:

Exo 3:20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.
Jdg 13:25 And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him (Samson) at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol.

Anyone alluding that God was teaching Jews of the OT about a fallen angel - Satan is making false statements. God did not teach Jews about a fallen angel - Satan. They absorbed pagan belief during 500 years before Jesus when God sent no prophets to Israel.

If Satan was cursed in Ge 3 so how could he come before God? If a stupid snake was used by powerful Satan how then it was cursed by God? Was God not aware of what had happened? Was God unfair? Was God afraid of Satan?

God bless

[nsr]

The Hebrew word translated "satan" simply means adversary. It can refer to anyone playing an adversarial role in the context of the passage in question. For example, Jesus calls Peter "satan" because at that time Peter is fulfilling the role of an adversary towards him.

[Richie]

Beowulf, on Aug 15 2009, 07:53 PM, said:

To identify a personage, and why having an accurate idea of who satan is can be found in 2Co 11:13 "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as Christ's apostles.
2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 It is no great thing therefore if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." The comparison here is of identifiable individuals. Christs apostles and satans servants. There is no convolution here.

Sure Satan can be identifiable in certain contexts. But the individual or group that the word refers to is different in different contexts. That would become clear to you if you did the concordance work.

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I also do not believe Jesus was having a personal crisis while being tempted. I don't believe Jesus was tempted to worship himself.

I don't believe he was having a personal crisis either. I believe he entered the wilderness with the weight of expectation on his shoulders and dealt with it using the word of God.

[Richie]

Oh I get what you mean about Jesus! OK, I believe the devil/Satan of his wilderness temptations refers to the Jewish world he grew up in.

[Amy Parkin]

There is another interpretation that no one's mentioned yet, and that is that the Satan in Job is human pride, embodied in the 3 friends. God heard the jealous grumblings of the 3 friends, though they didn't voice them directly to God. The conversation in chapter 1 is a literary device showing how God heard what they were thinking and chose to work in Job's life to bring about their salvation (salvation from the pride that was getting in the way of them living a pleasing and acceptable life). The 3 friends knew nothing of the 'conversation', otherwise they wouldn't have been hypothesising as to why Job was suffering.

Job 1:6 says that Satan came among the sons of God when they were presenting themselves before Him. I think this is where people get the angels idea from, but here there is a definite sense of congregation, which probably comes across better in the Hebrew. I firmly think that at this point in history the Israelites (the sons of God) were camping near Uz, the Gentile city where Job lived, and saw the wealth of Job and his piety and questioned in their hearts whether he would still be as righteous and good if he suffered as they had. Perhaps Job was part of the congregation, or perhaps the 3 friends were together in this meeting before God (a church service, for want of a better word) and talked amongst themselves about their jealousy and prideful thoughts. They clearly thought that they were better than Job because they were still presenting themselves before God in spite of their wilderness hardships, whereas for Job it was easy.

I don't believe the Satan could have been an angel, as angels are perfectly attuned to the will of God. I don't believe it was Satan in the big scary goat with horns and trident sense either, because that's not a biblical principle (you can search for threads about this elsewhere, or ask in a separate thread if you'd like to know more). Further to that, every single time the word 'Satan' appears in Job in the original Hebrew it is preceded by the definite article (ergo the Satan) so this is not talking about a person, but something more generic and abstract. We wouldn't call you the Beowolf, or me the Amy and I believe it works the same in the Hebrew.

Oh, and I totally can't take the credit for any of those thoughts because I've been mightily impressed by a series of talks by Bro John Pople that I recently heard. He's actually written a book about it if you'd be interested in reading his ideas for yourself. I find them very plausible and logical. I've never before heard an argument about Job's Satan that actually works in my mind. I'm sorry if I haven't done his views credit and they don't make much sense here.

[Evangelion]

Beowulf, on Aug 16 2009, 01:12 AM, said:

I've read that Christadelphians believe Satan or the Devil (I'm guessing you see him as one in the same, if not please let me know) is basically the sinful inclination of mankind and not a former angel.

Half true. We also believe that "Satan" can be any person who opposes another. It's not just "the sinful inclination of mankind".

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If this is the case, Who entered in among God and the other angels in Job 1:6?

A man who didn't like Job very much. I don't know where you get the idea that sons of God in Job 1:6 are angels.

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Here it said Satan came from roving about in the earth. This Satan then went on to be questioned by God. He also challenged God. He was capable of inflicting physical harm to a human, without knowledge by that human. There are a lot of interpersonal attributes and actions by this Satan mentioned in Job including communication. How could he be anything but a spiritual creation which had the ability to be in the presence of God and take physical action upon a man without knowledge of that man?

Yep, Satan was a real person. He was given power by God to afflict Job. God even places limits on that power (Satan is not allowed to kill Job).

[nsr]

John Pople's interpretation of Job is definitely worthy of consideration

[jerzy]

Nowhere in the OT do we find that Satan is a fallen angel. This idea has been proposed based on the "supposed enlightenment" of the NT.

Alas, God has hid certain things in parables or just blinded "the wise" to believe a lie

Luk 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

God bless

[Beowulf]

Jeremy, on Aug 16 2009, 12:24 AM, said:

Beowulf, on Aug 16 2009, 03:59 AM, said:

There may be "several" interpretations, but I do not see any validity in the ones stated here. I'm not even sure if you are serious with this reply.
Replies 1-4 all reference a personification of an individual addressed as Satan. To correlate Satan with any of these people accurately, evidence of such would be needed, not guessing. And again, it was someone who could be in the presence of God himself.

If 4 was correct, I'd need to see a "second witness" to verify that a loyal angel would ascribe impropriety on God's part in his relationship with men. Job 1:9-11

5. I've never heard that one before. I have seen where something was stated to be an "illustration" or a parable, and even a song, in scripture; never have I heard of a bible book being a play. Is there any others which you feel are simply plays?

As far as the occurances of Satan or the Devil in scripture, they seem to regularly attest to a personage. I won't list them all, but Zec. 3:1 shows this plainly enough.

If I understand this post correctly, you're saying you don't agree with these suggestions because you've never heard them before. Is that a fair reading?

When someone has to take several guesses, without a definitive scripturally supported answer, I see little point in taking them serious. Sorry.

That would be similar to saying, "Well it could be this, or this , or this, or that, but it isn't what you are implying, that much I'm sure of." That sounds a lot like religious interpretation and not scripture, which is beneficial for teaching and learning from.

[Beowulf]

nsr, on Aug 16 2009, 02:35 AM, said:

The Hebrew word translated "satan" simply means adversary. It can refer to anyone playing an adversarial role in the context of the passage in question. For example, Jesus calls Peter "satan" because at that time Peter is fulfilling the role of an adversary towards him.

I understand the descriptive titles of satan and devil. To write it off as not relating to someone specific seems contrary to scripture. And no I don't think it rotates identity to whomever it seems to descibe at the time.

In John 8:44 The Devil is personified by Jesus description. He does this with the pronoun "He" also when he uses the terms father and own as in self possession.

Jude 9 shows Michael disputing with the Devil and called for "him" to be rebuked by God.

Rev. 12:7 a war broke out in heaven with the dragon and serpent identified as satan. He sure gets around! 12:9 Satan has his angels. Rev. 20:1-3 the devil/satan is bound and abyssed. Odd that that would need to be done to an attitude or state of mind. Not relevant to humans either as they are dealth with specifically.

I'm sure satan, is quite happy in his attempts to mislead people about who and what he is.

[Beowulf]

Evangelion, on Aug 16 2009, 09:44 AM, said:

A man who didn't like Job very much. I don't know where you get the idea that sons of God in Job 1:6 are angels.


Yep, Satan was a real person. He was given power by God to afflict Job. God even places limits on that power (Satan is not allowed to kill Job).

Well, as the earth itself cannot contain God, and humans were not capable of "seeing" him, as in stationing themselves before him, as brought out in Moses' experiences, (remember during this time the Levites had significant restrictions within just the tent compartments, let alone stationing themselves before God where God exists)

I believe the "sons of the true God would be angels. These "sons of the true God are also mentioned in Gen 6:2 which should be a good indicator. Also Son of God mentioned in Job 38:7 where they existed in the creation account prior to the creation of men. There are more.

[Richie]

Beowulf, on Aug 16 2009, 04:40 PM, said:

And no I don't think it rotates identity to whomever it seems to descibe at the time.

Even though nsr identified one such occurrence which must refer to someone different to, say, the Satan of Job, since Peter wasn't around in Job's day? What about Judas - "one of you is a devil"?

Yes it's clear that there is a specific concept of the devil (Hebrews 2:14) but that doesn't imply the devil is a particular being throughout time. It could easily refer to a spirit of rebellion, for example. Just as wisdom is personified in Proverbs or riches are personified as Mammon, it's perfectly reasonable to say the spirit of rebellion is personified as the devil and/or Satan.

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In John 8:44 The Devil is personified by Jesus description. He does this with the pronoun "He" also when he uses the terms father and own as in self possession.

Exactly. Personified. The meaning of personification is where an object or concept is described as if it was a person. Sin in Romans 6 is personified as a master. There's some spirit at work from the beginning, as Jesus says in John 8:44, and that spirit was extant in Cain who was a murderer. There doesn't have to be a malevolent being exterior to Cain for the spirit of rebellion to be perfectly demonstrated in him so that Jesus could refer to Cain as a demonstration of that diablos spirit. Cain for a time was representative of the spirit of rebellion. Peter represented it in Caesarea-Philippi. Judas represented it. The Roman Empire represented it. And so on.

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Jude 9 shows Michael disputing with the Devil and called for "him" to be rebuked by God.

Have you heard of The Assumption of Moses? It's a pseudographical story doing the rounds in the first century and some expositors have thought that Jude is referring to it in his epistle to make a point. On the other hand, if he does refer to something true, then it could simply be a reference to Zechariah 3 where the historical context would tell us the devil/Satan refers to the spirit of opposition in the enemies of those building the temple.

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Rev. 12:7 a war broke out in heaven with the dragon and serpent identified as satan. He sure gets around! 12:9 Satan has his angels. Rev. 20:1-3 the devil/satan is bound and abyssed. Odd that that would need to be done to an attitude or state of mind. Not relevant to humans either as they are dealth with specifically.

It's a mistake to draw doctrinal teachings from the very symbolic language of Revelation. You're going to end up in an awful mess. But just take Revelation 12 for example. You'll also notice language taken straight out of Daniel 7 and the fourth beast, which any expositor worth his salt knows refers to the Roman Empire.

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I'm sure satan, is quite happy in his attempts to mislead people about who and what he is.

I've heard that argument a million times. Why would Satan want to mislead people? Why would he want to oppose God? This supposed majestic angelic being is the stupidest being the world has ever known if he wants to take on God. Of all beings to understand who God is and that if you challenge him you're going to be smashed to smithereens, it's one of his angels.

[Richie]

Can I ask you some questions Beowulf?

1. Maybe you could explain why Satan entered into Judas to betray Jesus when the death of Jesus would bring about his destruction?
2. How did the death of Jesus destroy the devil?
3. How does Satan teach people not to blaspheme and why would Paul want believers, however naughty they have been, to be delivered to him in any case?
4. Why is there so much sin and tragedy in the Old Testament but never once (except maybe in Job but probably not if Job 42:11 is to be believed) is the sin or tragedy ascribed to the devil or Satan?
5. In fact why is the devil never once mentioned in the Old Testament?
6. And why doesn't Satan get a mention until Numbers 22 where it refers to a good angel doing God's work?
7. Why isn't the devil or Satan mentioned in Romans 5-8, a passage all about sin and its effects?
8. Why isn't the devil or Satan mentioned in Mark 7?
9. Why isn't the devil or Satan mentioned in James 1?

Edited by Richie, 17 August 2009 - 02:18 AM.

[Jeremy]

Beowulf, on Aug 17 2009, 01:28 AM, said:

Jeremy, on Aug 16 2009, 12:24 AM, said:

If I understand this post correctly, you're saying you don't agree with these suggestions because you've never heard them before. Is that a fair reading?

When someone has to take several guesses, without a definitive scripturally supported answer, I see little point in taking them serious. Sorry.

That would be similar to saying, "Well it could be this, or this , or this, or that, but it isn't what you are implying, that much I'm sure of." That sounds a lot like religious interpretation and not scripture, which is beneficial for teaching and learning from.

That doesn't answer my question, and so far as I can see few of the possible explanations to this question haven't even discussed in any depth yet, so I don't understand why you're using the lack of scriptural discussion so far as an excuse to write them off. If you want people to offer their scriptural reasons, you're free to do so, but writing off other people's views as guesswork when evidence hasn't even been sought seems to me very unreasonable. Would you like people to offer evidence? Are you interested in reading it if they spend time doing so? Thank you.

[jerzy]

Jeremy

There is a set of three threads titled "In search of Satan". Could you glance through them before discussing single verses?

God bless

[Jeremy]

jerzy, on Aug 17 2009, 11:23 AM, said:

Jeremy

There is a set of three threads titled "In search of Satan". Could you glance through them before discussing single verses?

God bless

If those threads are suitable place for discussing the questions you have, I'm glad and encourage you and anyone else to take advantage of them. If they're not, you can ask here. But in line with the spirit of Forum rules, please don't dismiss other's sincere answers to your questions on the grounds that they haven't offered scriptural evidence if this hasn't actually been requested. If you're genuinely interested, feel free to ask - that's what BTDF is here for.

I'm not trying to score cheap point against you but if in this post you simply pooh-pooh people's answers as guesswork without troubling to ask for their evidence, that's hardly their fault, is it? I can only repeat, if you want to know why people think what they do, ask. If you don't, kindly refrain from criticising them - this is wholly unreasonable behaviour, and won't help progress the discussion. In writing this post I don't seek a written response, evasive or otherwise, and simply leave the matter with you for your kind consideration. Thank you.

[jerzy]

Jeremy

I am not sure if I understand this.

I was trying to help. Instead of running in circles arround one verse it was better, I thought, to have a look through the entire scriptures first.

God bless

[Evangelion]

Beowulf, on Aug 17 2009, 01:53 AM, said:

Well, as the earth itself cannot contain God, and humans were not capable of "seeing" him, as in stationing themselves before him, as brought out in Moses' experiences, (remember during this time the Levites had significant restrictions within just the tent compartments, let alone stationing themselves before God where God exists)

We are told that Moses spoke to God "face to face, as a man speaks to his friend". We are also told that God's divine presence filled the tabernacle and rested upon a mountain. Clearly, God can be present anywhere He chooses to be.

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I believe the "sons of the true God would be angels. These "sons of the true God are also mentioned in Gen 6:2 which should be a good indicator. Also Son of God mentioned in Job 38:7 where they existed in the creation account prior to the creation of men. There are more.

Why do you believe that they are angels in Job 1 and Genesis 6:2? Jesus said that angels "neither marry nor are given in marriage", so the "sons of God" in Genesis 6:2 cannot possibly be angels.

Do you believe that "Satan" has full access to God? That he can come and go as he pleases, even within God's own dwellingplace?

[heshallreign]

Beowulf, as I was once a non-Christadelphian, I understand where you are coming from. But when looked at logically, the idea of a supernatual fallen angel falls apart.

2 references speak of a someone falling from heaven Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Both of which are a prophesy against the King of Tyre. His fall from the heavens. Heavens in the bible are 1 of 3 things. a) where the birds fly, b) the political heavens or c) the heavens where God dwells. From the context, we can see political heavens is fitting.

Note how Isaiah 14 starts

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v. 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

Next, I agree that it was Job's friends, the "sons of God" coming before the priest. Coming with their jealousy in the minds trying to pray and God is personifying the struggle that will take place. The end of this story rules out any doubt you have about who caused this to Job.

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Job 42:11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.

Also, in that same chapter we see the LORD angry with this friends.

You have mentioned this in connection with Jesus' temptation...let us go there.
Jesus was just given the power of the Holy Spirit...a huge thing to have. He was hungry after 40 days, the average person can't go longer than 30 days without food. So he wants bread but that is not fasting by grabbing a quick bite. He is also offered all the kingdoms if he bows down and worships Satan. Is this something Satan can give? NO. Jesus would know that...there is no temptation there. The only temptation is if instead of waiting until after he is crucified and returns to rule the world, he does it now. But who is he obeying if he does that, it is easier, but he is doing his will, not his Father's. God gave Jesus the world but only after he suffers on the cross.

As mentioned before, Satan is translated "Adversary, opposer" We can see how this is applied in the first mention of the word in the Bible. Numbers 22:22. The angel of the LORD is an adversary to Balaam. In this useage it is the Angel opposing Balaam but Balaam is in the wrong.

These verses can help with seeing that sin comes from within us, not outside us.
Jer 17:9, Matt 15:17-20, Romans 8:7, James 1:13-15, Gen 6:5, 8:21, Luke 6:45

Edited by heshallreign, 17 August 2009 - 07:00 PM.

[Doc]

Jeremy, on Aug 17 2009, 06:53 AM, said:

jerzy, on Aug 17 2009, 11:23 AM, said:

Jeremy

There is a set of three threads titled "In search of Satan". Could you glance through them before discussing single verses?

God bless

If those threads are suitable place for discussing the questions you have, I'm glad and encourage you and anyone else to take advantage of them. If they're not, you can ask here. But in line with the spirit of Forum rules, please don't dismiss other's sincere answers to your questions on the grounds that they haven't offered scriptural evidence if this hasn't actually been requested. If you're genuinely interested, feel free to ask - that's what BTDF is here for.

I'm not trying to score cheap point against you but if in this post you simply pooh-pooh people's answers as guesswork without troubling to ask for their evidence, that's hardly their fault, is it? I can only repeat, if you want to know why people think what they do, ask. If you don't, kindly refrain from criticising them - this is wholly unreasonable behaviour, and won't help progress the discussion. In writing this post I don't seek a written response, evasive or otherwise, and simply leave the matter with you for your kind consideration. Thank you.

If I may interject - as a newbie - a couple of thoughts. And I speak with all due respect.

The name of this forum is "Bible Truth Discussion" - which would lead most to believe that the discussions here are based on the BIBLE. No?

Therefore, it would only seem logical, if not at least proper, that in voicing any opinion about anything biblical, the biblical evidence would be quoted, cited, referenced, etc. No?

If not, then it would seem it is no longer about BIBLE TRUTH, but personal philosophy, ideology, opinion, preference, feelings, etc. Maybe it's just me, but reason prevailing, it would seem valid discussions about absolute truth - aka scripture - would be more objective than subjective. Your thoughts? BLESSINGS Doc

[jerzy]

I am not sure if you are refering to me , Doc. If so then do you find topics "In search of Satan" my own philosophy. Tell me, please, where do I deviate from the scriptures. Am I wrong?

God bless

[Corky]

Richie, on Aug 16 2009, 09:17 PM, said:

Can I ask you some questions Beowulf?

1. Maybe you could explain why Satan entered into Judas to betray Jesus when the death of Jesus would bring about his destruction?

Perfect! Slam dunk! Owned!

[jerzy]

An act of selfdistruction by the clever fallen angel

[nsr]

Yes, the Satan of popular Christendom isn't too bright, bless him.