169 replies to this topic

[jerzy]

I have found two contradicting issues reading "The Gift of Tongues".

In the B.A.S.F. (Birmingham Amended Statement of Faith) point 10 states that God used Jesus who was "of like nature with mortal man".

TRUTH TO BE RECEIVED
10. That being so begotten of God, and inhabited and used by God thru the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Jesus was Emmanuel, God with us, God manifested in the flesh -- yet was, during his natural life, of like nature with mortal man, being made of a woman, of the house and lineage of David, and therefore a sufferer, in the days of his flesh, from all the effects that came by Adam's transgression, including the death that passed upon all man, which he shared by partaking of their physical nature.

Yet apostols were given gifts which ceased

Chapter Five

Spiritual Defined

Of course, the application is all Scripture, Genesis through Revelation, but Paul's instruction to Timothy is quite clear: the OT gives the basis of all doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness (right living). Therefore, all teaching must have its foundation in the OT. (Cf. the Lord's instruction, Jn 5:39-47.)

The "sign gifts" (as they are called), tongues, interpretation of tongues, healings (other than Ja 5), all ceased when the need was fulfilled

The apostolic gifts were for a purpose, and when that purpose was fulfilled, they ceased.

Chapter Six

Conclusion

Prophecy dropped off and became more and more infrequent until John wrote the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all, Amen. With this, all prophecy as a supernatural gift spoken of in 13:8 stopped.

Therefore, the supernatural gift of prophecy can no longer be in operation, for there is no further supernatural revelation from the Father or the Son although there is further illumination.

However the Spirit of God has been active

The Spirit of God

The Spirit of God gives the desire, wisdom and power to work for God, to understand His word and to apply it to every area of life. His Spirit gives the desire and power to obey His commands, thereby inheriting the blessings of God

It appears to me that Mt 11:25 is applicable here

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Let me deal with the way God's work has been portrayed throught the scriptures.


THE HOLY SPIRIT


A SHORT STUDY FROM

1. The Old Testament 2. The New Testament

• Aspects that need to be considered

What God’s Holy Spirit is, What God’s Holy Spirit does,

What God’s Holy Spirit represents, How God’s Holy Spirit affects us today,

Effect on our beliefs.

Hebrew and Greek Words Translated ‘spirit’
Hebrew O.T. ruach (pronounced ‘ruw-ach’)

Greek N.T. pneuma (pronounced ‘new-ma’).

– The Greek word pneuma lies behind several English words, including ‘pneumatic’ and ‘pneumonia’.

In older translations of the Bible, the Spirit is sometimes referred to as the ‘Ghost’.

– The Authorised Version of the Bible was translated in 1611

– At that time, ‘ghost’ was simply another word for ‘spirit’ and had nothing to do with poltergeists and spirit-survival.

The Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are synonymous

– Modern translations invariably refer to the Holy Spirit.

– “HOLY” – Often indicates a special or separate occasion.

· THE OLD TESTAMENT - SPIRIT

• Though it might not always be put in these terms, it is clear that when men of God wrought miracles (as
Moses, Elijah, and Elisha); it was the Lord who wrought it “through” them.

Thou shalt speak all that I command thee…I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth…my people…out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt…Exo 7:2-5

And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt. Exo 9v23

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Rom 9:17

Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. Jam 5v17

• When the prophets, spoke messages from God- - “The word of the Lord came unto me”, and the like, the
New Testament tells us how this came about

“Holy men of God spoke as they were moved (led - phero not kineo) by the Holy Spirit.”2 Pet 1v22

• Words to the same effect are sometimes used by the prophets themselves, as when Moses tells us that “the
spirit of God came upon Baalam”, or when David says, “The spirit of the Lord spoke to me”.

• There are also some indications of a “quieter” work of the Spirit in the personal lives of men of God. E.G.

• When king Saul ceased to seek God’s ways, and the Spirit of God departed from him, to be replaced by “an
evil spirit from the Lord” 1 Samuel 16:14

• When David in his remorse pleads that God will not take away His Holy Spirit from him, but will uphold him
with a willing spirit, he is not asking for inspiration to speak or write messages from God, but for renewed
fellowship with God, to create in him a clean heart and strengthen him in righteous ways.

Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. Psalm 51:10-12

• The O.T. uses the phrase “Holy Spirit” [qodesh ruach] only 3 times in two particular Messianic passages:

…Do not cast me away from your presence, nor take your Holy Spirit from me”. Psa51:10-11


“But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; so He turned Himself against them as an enemy … Then He remembered the days of old, Moses and his people saying; … Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them?” Isa. 63:10, 11

• Psalm 51 foreshadows the One (Jesus) who is burdened with the world’s sins which he bears in the power of
God’s Holy Spirit.

• Isaiah 63 opens with a vision of Jesus in dyed garments, (vs. 1), come in fury to judge the world.


· The Spirit of God - Gods Creative Power

• The Spirit of God is active at the very beginning of the Bible.

‘the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters’ (Genesis 1:2).

· The Spirit of God is referred to throughout the Bible. O.T. e. g. ’s

‘You send forth your spirit, they are created: and you renew the face of the earth’ (Psalm 104:30)

· And Job

‘The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life’ (Job 33:4).

· Breath [spirit] in the nostrils

“Everything on dry land that had the breath [spirit] of life in its nostrils died.” (Genesis 7:22)

“The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath [spirit] from his nostrils.” (2 Samuel 22:16, Psalm 18:15)

“Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath [spirit] in his nostrils.” (Isaiah 2:22)

“as long as I have life within me, the breath [spirit] of God in my nostrils,” (Job27:3)

· Spirit [breath] in Ecclesiastes

“Man’s fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both; As one dies so dies the other. All have the same spirit [breath]; man has no advantage over the animal. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit [breath] of the man rises upward...?” (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21, Hebrew text)

“you do not know how the spirit [breath] enters the body formed in a mother's womb” (11:5)

“the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit [breath] returns to God who gave it.” (12:7)

· The Spirit of God-His Creative Power. If God were to withdraw His Spirit, the universe would dissolve into chaos again:

‘If He set his heart upon man, if He gather unto himself His spirit and his breath; all flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust’ (Job 34:14-15).

v So the Spirit of God is the power by which He created the earth and everything upon it, and continues to keep it alive.

· The Spirit = God’s Presence everywhere

Edited by jerzy, 12 August 2009 - 11:13 AM.

[jerzy]

By his Spirit, God is able to be present everywhere as David explains

‘Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
(Psalm 139:7-12).

God Himself warned,
‘Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? says the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? says the Lord’ Jer 23:24.
v Spirit in the New Testament. The Spirit - the Power of Revelation

The Spirit of God is the power by which God has moved (led) men and women to speak and write about Him:

‘Prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit’ 2 Peter 1:21
Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them’ (Nehemiah 9:20).

The scriptures has been ‘breathed out’ by God.
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God” 2 Tim 3:15-17.

The words ‘given by inspiration of God’ literally mean ‘breathed out by God’.

Some see the Bible as totally fulfilling the role of the Holy Spirit today.

It was during the time of the apostles, that the Holy Spirit moved (led) them to write the various books of the New Testament, so the Bible represents the power of the Holy Spirit. It contains all the things we need to know for our salvation.

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work”. 2 Tim 3:16-17

The Spirit - God’s Power Unto Salvation
God, by His Spirit, works to save His people: See 2Cor3v 3+6+8+18. When people resist God’s work of salvation, they are said to ‘vex his holy Spirit’:

In all their affliction He was afflicted…But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit:…Is 63:9-10.

Also in the days of Jesus and his followers, the people of God were resisting His salvation:

‘Ye stiff-necked . . . ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye’ Acts 7:51.


v The Spirit of God and Jesus

God’s Spirit was in the prophets, His messengers, centuries before the Lord Jesus was born. Isaiah spoke about Him and His message. Jesus later picked up these words and applied them to himself:

“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me…” (Isaiah 61:1-2).

Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.
‘The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God’ Luke 1:35.

Jesus was anointed with the Spirit at his baptism:
Matt 3:16.‘Jesus, when he was baptized…he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him’

Jesus' supreme understanding of God, God’s ways and the extraordinary power “present on His request” was due to the Spirit abiding upon him.
The spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord Is 11:2.

John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him’ Jn 1:32.

And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee…Lu 4:14

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me…Luk 4:18

All things are delivered to me of (by) my Father…Luk 10:22

God was working in Jesus, through Jesus and around Jesus to manifest that His Word was Truth
“the power of the Lord was present to heal them” Lk 5:17

But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. Luk 11:20

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Joh 14:10

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; Act 2:22


v The way of the Spirit

The way of the Spirit is also emphasised as the way in which God wants believers to live.

“Walk in the Spirit…” Galatians 5:16-17; 6:7-8.

Paul also talks of the ‘fruit of the Spirit’: the personal qualities which result from living in obedience to the Word of God:
‘The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance’ (Galatians 5:22).

Some Uses and Meanings. God is referred to as ‘Spirit’ (John 4:24)

Jesus is referred to as ‘Spirit’ (1 Corinthians 15:45, compare John 5:21; 2 Corinthians 3:17-18)


Angels are referred to as ‘spirits’ (Hebrews 1:7, 14)

the Word of God is called ‘the sword of the Spirit’ (Ephesians 6:17).

Edited by jerzy, 12 August 2009 - 10:01 AM.

[Flappie]

Hmmm,

Welcome to the forum.

Your posts are about 5000 words each too long. If you found some contradicting issues, then tell us what they are, and how they are contradictions. Pasting your entire study is not a good idea. If you really want to paste it, restructure and reformat it, and split it over multiple posts (a few paragraphs per post).

Thanks

Edited by Flappie, 12 August 2009 - 09:37 AM.

[jerzy]

Flappie, on Aug 12 2009, 11:33 AM, said:

Hmmm,

Welcome to the forum.

Your post is about 5000 words too long. If you found some contradicting issues, then tell us what they are, and how they are contradictions. Pasting your entire study is not a good idea. If you really want to paste it, restructure and reformat it, and split it over multiple posts.

Thanks

God worked through Moses and the prophets. God worked through Jesus. God worked through the apostles. God has been working through people.

I am not sure if parting this will help. There are two parts discribing
-the way God has been working in His creation.
-the so called gifts of the Holy Spirit as God's working or manifestation.

[jerzy]

v One spirit

“different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit ... different kinds of working but the same God works all of them in all men” (1Corinthians 12:4)

“by means of the same Spirit… by the same Spirit… by that one Spirit.” (12:8-9)

“the work of one and the same Spirit”. (12:11)

“all baptised by one Spirit into one body... all given the one Spirit to drink.” (1 Cor. 12:13)

“For through him [Christ] we [Jews and Gentiles] both have access to the Father by one Spirit.” (Ephesians 2:18)

“There is one body and one Spirit.” (Eph. 4:4)



v SOME NEW TESTAMENT REFS TO HOLY SPIRIT TODAY

§ For those who believed in Him -

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him. By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.” John 7:37-39

• To those who ask Him

If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" Lu11:13

• In this passage no time limit for this promise is given. The sense is very clear: the Holy Spirit is given to those who ask the Father.



v NEW TESTAMENT REFS TO HOLY SPIRIT TODAY

Help the believer in-Endurance, encouragement, spirit of unity, hope, joy, peace Ro15:5-6,13

May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.


ü TO GIVE US STRENGTH

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. - --Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Eph. 3:14-21

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God 1 Corinthians. 6:18-20


· HOLY SPIRIT AS A DEPOSIT 2 Corinthians 1:20-22

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set

his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit,

guaranteeing what is to come.2 Timothy 1:14

Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you--guard it with the help of the Holy

Spirit that lives in us. 2 Corinthians 5:4-5

Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as

a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. Ephesians 1:13-14

Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, which is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

ü A deposit indicates a present taste of something to be received more fully later
1 Thessalonians 4:3-8


• For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. 3:16

• Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 1 John 4:11-16

• No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of His Spirit Titus 3:3-8

• He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ Romans 5:1-5

• God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, which He has given us.2 Thess 1:10-12

• On the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people; we pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfil every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith.


“You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
Ro 8:9
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, which lives in you.

• The Spirit of Christ = the Spirit of God.

• God’s Spirit in you = Christ in you.

• Does not have (the Spirit) = does not belong (to Christ)!

• Paul had therefore opened his heart to the Lord Jesus Christ who then proceeded to work in him “through God’s Spirit.”


v CHRIST’S HELP THROUGH THE SPIRIT

• There were two forces at work in Paul (Ro 7), and both are at work in us too. They are:

Sin at work within our members.

Christ working in us through God’s Spirit.

Without the presence of Christ the battle is all lost!

• Jesus clearly stated that there is no obvious outward evidence of God’s Spirit at work within a person - but the Spirit’s working should gradually become evident in its fruits: Gal 5

John 3:7-8 Do not marvel that I said to you, “You must be born again.” The wind blows

where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from

or where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit”.

John 14:15-17"If you love me, you will obey what I command and I will ask the Father,

and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you forever, the Spirit of truth.

you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. - - - - I will come to

you,- - you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I in you - -

If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we

will come to him and make our home with him.

The Comforter/Counsellor, is the Holy Spirit, the power of God which Jesus promised to send to those who were willing to take the gospel out into the world.

[jerzy]

v GOD’S POWER IN JESUS

• Although Jesus is physically absent, He is always present with us through God’s Spirit. Jesus confirms this

John 14v18 “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.”

• There is no Biblical evidence for believing that this presence of Jesus through God’s Spirit has ever been withdrawn. Withdrawal would break one of Jesus’ most important and comforting promises to His apostles and to us:

Matt. 28:20 “I am with you always, even to the end of the world.”

John 15v5 I am the vine, you are the branches: he who is in me at all times as I am

in him, gives much fruit, because without me you are able to do nothing.

• The Old Testament set the pattern for this “presence” in Psa. 51:11, where David associates God’s presence with the Holy Spirit.

• The “Angel of the Presence” (Isa. 63:9), who saved and redeemed them, is the prime Old Testament type of God’s Holy Spirit.

• Both the angel and Moses were types of the Glorified Christ, who would lead believers through the wilderness of this life.

• Jesus promises to be present on an individual basis-such is the power of the New Covenant!

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure. Phil. 2:12-13


v To summarize:-

God’s Holy Spirit is God’s power. But also

• The Helper (Comforter) Jn14v16

• The Spirit of Truth,

• The Advocate or Intercessor.

• Jesus-present through God’s Holy Spirit


The Spirit is the power of God, and He can use it in any way and time as He pleases. The Holy Spirit, working in believers in all ages (after the resurrection), has been promised. The following few verses are universal (not first century specific):

Rom 5:5 "And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into

our hearts by the Holy Spirit, which he has given us".

Rom 14:17 "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of

righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit".

Rom 15:13 "May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so

that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit".

Rom 15:16 "so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God,

sanctified by the Holy Spirit".

2 Cor 13:14 "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the

fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

Eph 1:13 "Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy

Spirit".

1 Thess 1:6 "You became imitators of us and of the Lord; you welcomed the message

with the joy given by the Holy Spirit".

Tit 3:5 “He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his

mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit“.

God’s power working in us, does not equal to us being able to do miracles


UNDERSTANDING HOW GOD WORKS IN US - CAN BE DIFFICULT.
DETAILS OF THE PROCESS ARE NOT LAID OUT EXPLICITLY IN SCRIPTURE. OUR LIFE IN CHRIST IS NOT ONLY BIBLE STUDY, BUT MORE IMPORTANT, TEACHINGS TO BE PUT INTO ACTION IN OUR DAILY LIVES. INHALE – EXHALE!

STUDY OF SCRIPTURE IS NOT AN END IN ITSELF - - IMPORTANT THOUGH IT IS - - BUT A MEANS TO AN END - - RIGHTEOUSNESS.

• THE “POWER” OF GOD MAY MEAN DIFFERENT THINGS TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE, BUT ALL NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE ARE POWERLESS TO OVERCOME SIN COMPLETELY BY OUR OWN EFFORTS AND THAT WE ALL NEED GOD’S HELP IN WHATEVER FORM HE IS WILLING TO GIVE THIS TO US.

Rom8v9 “You are CONTROLLED not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit

IF the Spirit of God lives in you - - and if anyone does not have the Spirit of

Christ - he does NOT belong to Christ”

• THE IDEA OF BEING CONTROLLED MAKES MOST FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE. IT DOES NOT EQUATE TO BEING ROBOTS OR LOOSING FREE WILL. TRUE FREEDOM - - FREEDOM FROM THE SPIRIT OF SELF AT THE CENTRE AND THE “EVIL THAT I WOULD NOT”, COMES ABOUT FROM OUR SUBMITTING TO THE CONTROL OF THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST.

[jerzy]

v Being Born Again

WE BEGIN WITH SURRENDER AND REPENTANCE AT BAPTISM AND THEN EACH DAY OF OUR LIVES. THE PROCESS IS CONTINUALLY ON GOING. THEN GOD CAN WORK WITH US AND ANSWER OUR PRAYERS; HELPING US IN WHATEVER WAY OR FORM HE DEEMS RIGHT FOR US.

“LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION”; - - - - “ASK, AND IT WILL BE

GIVEN” - -- “HOW MUCH MORE WILL YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER

GIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THOSE WHO ASK HIM”

• In a discussion with Nicodemus, Jesus points out that there are two elements to being born again. Being born again is a prerequisite for entering into God’s kingdom:


Ø Except - - unless! Words that are absolute. There is NO WAY into the Kingdom UNLESS we are born of water (baptism) and of the Spirit (Christ in us).

John 3

3. “I tell you the truth, no-one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again [or from above].”

5. “I tell you the truth, no-one can enter the Kingdom of God unless he is born of water and spirit.”

6. “The Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit…. You must be born again.

8. “The spirit [wind, breath] blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the spirit [wind, breath]. (after Ecclesiastes 11:5)

21. “But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”


ü Water birth begins the conception / foretaste / DEPOSIT of the spirit. Which grows if God works in our lives.


· When did Jesus give the Holy Spirit?

“He gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and heal every disease and sickness.” (Matt 10:1)

“Up to that time the Spirit had not been given since Jesus had not yet been glorified.” (John 7:39)

“And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit”.” (John 20:22)

“They saw what appeared to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues - -Then Peter said unto them, Repent; be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit - - The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, for all whom the Lord our God will call." (Acts 2:2+4+38+39) Pentecost.

Contrast Old Creation vs. New Creation

Genesis (of Moses) Genesis of Jesus Christ

firstborn (from the dust) Firstborn from the dead

“in Adam” “in Christ”

God breathing into Adam Jesus breathed on disciples

Born Born again

Born of the flesh Born of water and spirit

Flesh gives birth to flesh Spirit gives birth to spirit

The Flesh (with a capital F) Spirit

Works of the flesh Fruits of the spirit

Outer man Inner man

Old man New man

old way of life Newness of life


v HOLY SPIRIT- CLOSING THOUGHTS

The main principle: When Thinking About The Work of The Spirit: Stick To

Scripture!

It is important that we do justice to what the Bible has to say about the Holy Spirit.

There are many verses in Scripture which describe how God is working in the lives of believers through His power- the Holy Spirit.

Ignoring or dismissing these verses, or wrestling scriptures to "explain them away", is a serious mistake.

We need to become familiar with what Scripture has to say about this subject. This will also prevent an equal reaction in the opposite direction, where some who are not grounded in Scripture will begin to make all sorts of bizarre claims (or demands) about how the Spirit is working.

Much of the charismatic / Pentecostal movement tends towards this mistake. Close attention to Scripture is the proper counterbalance. The Pentecostal / evangelical movements tend to assume that they must reproduce the outward form, as they understand it, of the Spirit's first century work.

Those remarkable signs were necessary to give authority to the apostle’s preaching:

And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. (Mar 16:20)

And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul (through means of Paul): (Act 19:11)


Ø It doesn’t mean that God is unable to do such signs today.


ü Understand the purpose of the work of the Spirit:

1. God's ultimate purpose is "God-manifestation". The work of the Spirit in the

life of the believer is to manifest God so that He alone is glorified.

2. Buildup and strengthen the family of God.

3. Create Fruit of the Spirit in the believer.


• The Holy Spirit will never contradict Scripture

God cannot contradict himself. Scripture is from God, and the Holy Spirit is from God; the two cannot contradict each other. The Holy Spirit will always work in accord with Scripture, and will never violate or contradict Scripture. Those who claim that the "Holy Spirit told / taught me" something that contradicts Scripture are sadly mistaken.

The Spirit never violates human free-will. Understanding this principle will go a long way towards allaying the fears and misunderstandings of those who believe that the Spirit “takes control” of believers in some sort of magical or demon-like possession.
It is we who must ask, through prayer, for God’s help, to change us. That change can sometimes be miraculous, but not often. Addictions and compulsions can be lifted. Hearts can be changed to want to do or be something that we could not manage solely on our own.

We have to realize that there is only so much we can overcome through our own efforts. If we ask God in prayer, He can help us to change; one of the works of the spirit is to - - - “convict of sin”.

This is a continuing process. Being like Christ involves developing His character; developing the fruit of the Spirit.

[jerzy]

THE HOLY SPIRIT GIFTS

A Short Study From

1. The Old Testament 2. The New Testament

Aspects that need to be considered:

What The Holy Spirit Gifts are, Could people pass such gifts to others,

What God’s Spirit represents, How God’s Spirit affects us today.


v Hebrew Words Translated ‘gift’

• There are three main Hebrew words used in the scripture of different connotation which are translated as “gift”. (examples of possible meanings included).

-mattâth (pronounced ‘mat-tawth’) a present (Ecc 3:13 this is the present of God)

-mattân (‘mat-tawn‘) a reward (Nu 18:11 the heave offering of their reward)

-nâthan (‘naw-than‘) to give, a charge (Nu 8:19 I have given the Levites as a charge to

Aaron) to give, to give a present, to perform, to utter, a reward, a charge


v Greek Words Translated ‘gift’

• There are few Greek words of different connotation translated in our Bibles as “gift” or “gifts”. This creates a real problem for us. We can not distinguish between psychical and spiritual forms of God’s “gifts”. Examples of possible tranlations include:

– charis (khar'-ece) graciousness, Devine influence upon the heart (2Co 8:4 receive the Devine influence upon the heart).

– charisma (pronounced ‘char-is-mah’) a Devine gratuity, religious qualification, deliverance from danger (Ro 1:11 some spiritual religious qualification, 1Co 12:31 covet earnestly the best religious qualification)

– dōron (do'-ron) a present, offering (Eph 2:8 the present of God).

– dōrea (do-reh-ah‘) gratuity (Ro 5:15 the gratuity by grace Joh 4:10, Ac 2:38, 8:20, 10:45, 11:7, Eph 3:7).

– dōrēma (do'-ray-mah) a bestowment (Jas 1:17 perfect bestowment).

– Doma (dom'-ah) a present (Php 4:17 I desire a present).

– Dosis (dos'-is) a giving (Jas 1:17 every good giving)

– Merismos (mer-is-mos‘) distribution (Heb 2:4 and distribution of the H.S.).


v Hebrew and Greek Words Translated ‘spirit’

• The power of God, Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost are synonymous

“HOLY” – Often indicates a special or separate occasion or function and is used predominantly in the N.T. The same activity pertaining to “the spirit” or “the spirit of God” in the O.T. is described by the word “the Holy Spirit” in the N.T.

Zec 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law,

and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets…

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of

God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Act 7:51 …ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did…


v The Old Testament Gifts

• Though it might not always be put in these terms, it is clear that God gives “gifts” (His spirit, His energy) to people throughout their entire life:

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Exo 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh

the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Deu 8:18 …it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth…

Ecc 5:19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof,
and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.

1Ch 29:14 But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all
things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.

Job 1:21…Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the

LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.


Ø God gives to people all things (function of their body, food, prosperity) and keeps them alive.



• The New Testament reinforces this

Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.

1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou
didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being---For we are also his offspring.

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or

think, according to the power that worketh in us,


Ø Our “standard” or “common” daily body functions are performed because of “the gift of God”.

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God cause man to perform a “extra-ordinary” activity
• God announces His intentions concerning Egypt and teaches Moses what to say and do

Exo 3:20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I

will do in the midst thereof…

Exo 4:12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

Exo 7:16-17 And thou shalt say unto him (Pharaoh): thus saith the LORD: I (Moses) will smite with the rod that is
in mine hand upon the waters…and they shall be turned to blood.

• Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams

Dan 1:17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning

and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.

• But the secret was revealed to him only after prayer

Dan 2:18 That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret….

Dan 2:19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven.

• Wisdom and might are God’s and God revealeth secrets.

Dan 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are
his:

Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets…

• Did Daniel have more wisdom than any living? Let us inspect the verses below

Dan 1:17 + 2:30 God gave them (including Daniel) knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom…But as for me,
this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that
shall make known the interpretation to the king…

· Did God put all His words in Jeremiah mouth at once?

Jer 1:9 Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put
my words in thy mouth.

· No. Jeremiah receives “the word” over many years.

Jer 2:1, 7:1, 11:1… the word of the LORD came to me…

· The Spirit of the Lord moves Samson at times

Jdg 13:25 And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol.

· King Saul and his messengers prophesy by the Spirit of God.

1Sa 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them…

1Sa 10:10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met

him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

1Sa 19:20 …the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.

1Sa 19:21 And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they prophesied

likewise. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they prophesied also.

1Sa 19:23 And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him

also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah.

Let us compare the above O.T. “Spirit of God” with

2 Pet 1:22 “Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

• God turned king Saul into another man

1Sa 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou…shalt be turned into another man.

1Sa 10:9 And it was so, that…God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

• King Saul prophesied when an evil spirit came upon him

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied…

• There were those allocated with prophesying with harps

1Ch 25:1 Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of
Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals…

1Ch 25:3 …the sons of Jeduthun…prophesied with a harp, to give thanks and to praise the LORD.

• God reveales or hides information from man

2Ki 4:27 …the LORD hath hid it from me, and hath not told me.

• God fills with wisdom, knowledge and understanding

Exo 31:3 And I have filled him (Bezaleel) with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in

understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

1Ki 10:24, 2Ch 9:23 And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart


Ø God’s power (His Spirit) makes people to perform “extra-ordinary” activities

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v God Will Pour His Spirit = The New Testament Gifts

• God has promised in the O.T. to “pour” His Spirit on ALL flesh:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I

will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and

ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your
daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

• Jesus repeats the promises and Apostle Paul follows

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive:

for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth
him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ;

that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.



v The Function Of The Holy Spirit

• To guide into all truth

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of
himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:…

To prophesy

Joh 16:13 …and he will shew you things to come.

• To speak in (through) people

Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

• To perform miracles. It is important to note that it was the Lord who “gave testimony unto the word”.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe…

Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with

them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Act 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

Act 14:3 …speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and
wonders to be done by (dia - through) their hands (cheir – means).

Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles
and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by (dia - through) them. Also Ac 21:19

Act 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his
grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by (dia - through) their hands (cheir – means).

Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not

wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and
round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Act 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by (dia - through) the hands (cheir – means) of Paul

2Ti 4:17…the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that
all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness (united them in adding evidence), both with signs and wonders, and with
divers miracles, and gifts (distribution) of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

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v The Powers of Jesus and the Apostles

• We find few verses in the scripture which could indicate that Jesus and his Apostles had powers to their own disposal to heal, pass the gifts of the Holy Spirit e.g. We need to look into the broader picture of the scripture in this aspect. Also to take note of the possible shortcoming of the Bible translations

• God informs us that only He alone does miracles and will not give His glory to another

Psa 136:4 Only God works great miracles. God's love never fails.

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven
images.

1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

§ It is not possible for God to contradict Himself

• Jesus informs us that it is the Father who does all his works

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I
speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me…(by) my Father

• Apostle Peter confirms that

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by
miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by (through) him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also
know

• The instruction of Jesus to give glory to God and not to himself was not carried out. The same happens today!

Luk 8:39 Return to thine own house, and shew how great things God hath done unto thee. And he went his way,
and published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him.

• Jesus was unable to do mighty work

Mar 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

• Jesus tells Martha that if she believes she will see the glory of God (not his)

Joh 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of
God?

• Jesus “prays as always” before resurrection of Lazarus. The same way Elijah prayed in 1Ki 17:21-22.

Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And

Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which

stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

• Jesus offered very sincere prayers while in flesh and was heard

Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and
tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

• Jesus received power after the resurrection

Mat 28:18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

• The multitude of healings took place while the Apostles were not involved directly

Act 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at
the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

Act 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them
which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Act 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

Act 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed
from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

• The Apostles did not claim to be in possession of the power to heal. Apostle Peter (and John) clearly state
this after the first healing

Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why
look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

• Apostle Peter explains that

Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the
faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

• Shortly after this, all (probably including Peter and John) prayed to God to bring about healings

Act 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with

all boldness they may speak thy word,

Act 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy
child Jesus.

• The verses below show such acts of God

Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia…which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that
she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Act 9:40 But Peter …kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said,

Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

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• The establishment of lying of hands

Num 27:18-20 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him; And set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and give him a charge in their sight. And thou shalt put some of thine honour upon him, that all the congregation of the children of Israel may be obedient.

• The same prevails in the first century

Act 6:3-6 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

• There is only one record of healing performed by lying of the Apostle’s hands, preceded by prayer. It is a different manifestation of the Spirit. See1Co 12:7

Act 28:8 …the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul

entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.

• The second healing by lying of hands was performed by a non Apostle

Act 9:17 And Ananias…putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee
in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight…

• Apostle Paul had no power over Epaphroditus’s illness or his own. He left behind Trophimus sick

Phi 2:25…Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier…he that ministered to my wants.

Phi 2:26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard

that he had been sick.

Phi 2:27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on

him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it (a thorn in the flesh) might depart from me.

2Ti 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.



ü We have to ask ourselves this question: would Apostle Paul have left Trophimus sick behind in Miletum if he had the power to heal him?????!!!!!


Ø There is no biblical evidence that the Apostles had the power to heal at their control.


Could the Apostles pass the Holy Spirit or its gifts?

There are only three records of people “passing” the H.S. Apostle Paul understood that the H.S. comes with ones belief and prayer after the baptism

1. Act 8:15 Who (Peter and John), when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

2. Act 19:2+6 …Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?... We have not so much as heard whether
there be any Holy Ghost. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them…

· A non Apostle passed the Holy Spirit

3. Act 9:17 And Ananias…putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord…hath sent me, that thou mightest…be filled with the Holy Ghost.


Ø God shows diverse manifestation of His Spirit working “through” man


Prophesying - as we have seen in the O.T. - was always done by the Holy Spirit “moving” prophets at times. Apostle Paul shows clearly that the same principle applies in the N.T.

1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

Apostle Paul does not indicate that he may impart gifts upon Romans but rather a spiritual qualification

Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift

(qualification), to the end ye may be established;

Apostle Paul doesn‘t hint to be able to pass gifts but instead advices prayer even for his own utterance.

1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent

way.

1Co 14:1 …desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth
than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may

excel to the edifying of the church.

1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching

thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly… See also Col 4:3

· Apostle Peter received the Holy Spirit before the day of Pentecost and again for the performance of miracles at times.

Joh 20:22 …he breathed on them (including Peter) and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit”.

Act 2:4 And they were all (including Peter) filled with the Holy Ghost

Act 4:8+31 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost… And when they had prayed …they were all (including Peter)
filled with the Holy Ghost and they spake the word of God with boldness.

· Apostle Paul was not different

Act 9:17 …(Saul) be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Act 13:9 Then Saul, (Paul) filled with the Holy Ghost…

Act 26:16 …I (Jesus) have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of
these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

· The promise of God was to pour out the Spirit (not gifts of the H.S.)

Act 2:17 …I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh…

· In Ac 2:4 they were filled with the H.S. and not “given gifts” The alternative translation here may be:

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other

tongues, as the Spirit (made them speak).

· It corresponds perfectly well with Joh 14:10 and Mar 16:20

Joh 14:10 …the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Mar 16:20…the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following…

· This time it (speaking in tongues = manifestation of the H.S.) was seen and heard.

Act 2:33…(Jesus) having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath

shed forth ekcheo poured this which ye now see and hear.

· After baptism every one shall receive the Holy Spirit as a gift rather then a gift from the H.S.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the

name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the

Holy Ghost.


v Every work of God through the Holy Spirit is a gift to man for his benefit. In this sense every form of manifestation of such work is a gift of God or a gift of the Holy Spirit.

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The Function Of The Holy Spirit - summary

v The Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit is God’s power (energy of the universe). God uses it as He pleases in any way and time according to His will and purpose. This energy is necessary for every new creation and it’s standard (gifts) as well as extra-ordinary functions and abilities (gifts).


v God led people in the O.T.

Exo 4:12 …I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not…by the will of man: but holy men of God

spake as they were moved (led - phero not kineo) by the Holy Ghost.


v The same way God “leads” people today.

Joh 14:10 …the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth
the works.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus…said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon…: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
(not even I) but my Father…
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the
power that worketh in us,


Ø The Father (or Jesus at present) lead people


The Holy Spirit Gifts Conclusion

• The meaning of Greek words used in the scripture is not always properly rendered by the words “gift or power”.

• God imparts “standard” (gifts) as well as “extra-ordinary” abilities (gifts) upon people according to His “measure”. The “standard” gifts seem to have “automatic” effect, but God’s working becomes more obvious in the “extra-ordinary” abilities (gifts).

• The “standard” abilities (gifts) are often called talents: to teach, to give, to minister, to rule, to exhort, to be strong in faith or having good knowledge.

• The “extra-ordinary” abilities (gifts) - though often faked or claimed falsely – are for specific purposes; to prophecy, to heal, to perform miracles, to speak in tongues e.g.

• People should “stir up” their gifts and pray for more.

• God performs miracles “through” people in order for man to see that His Word is Truth.

• People have a free will and choice to utilize their abilities (gifts) for God’s glory or their own. They can use their gifts in part or not use them at all.

• God leads people by the Holy Spirit (as He has promised) in order for them to fulfill their purpose for which they were created.

• God makes people to will and to act according to His good purpose. Therefore, their daily life might be pleasant or painful for reasons known to God.

• God also performs miracles that are not “through” people (not using man as means). In his ignorance and / or pride man calls such miracles forces of nature, power of mind, coincident or lack and thus deprive God of His glory.

• Some wrestle scriptures to suggest that because God did not send prophets to Israel just before the first coming of Jesus so He is also “quiet” now. They quote from Joel 2:23 to suggest that “the early rain, and the latter rain” symbolize the Spirit.

• However Joel 2:22 + 24 speaks clearly about prosperity to come as a result of rain coming in proper seasons. So the “rain” has a literal meaning here. We find such literal meanings of earlier and later rain in De 11:14, 28:14 Le 26:4, Jer 5:24.

• Only five verses further (in Joel 2:28), God speaks about pouring His spirit (not rain) upon all flesh. It will take place afterward (after the period of prosperity). Apostle Peter quotes just this verse (not 2:23) in Ac 2:17 as the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.

• They also wrestle Ac 2:39 to mean that the promise of the “gift of the Holy Spirit” is only for two generations and then again when the Lord returns.

• This is a serious mistake. They must realize that they make the second part of the verse (God’s calling) void until Jesus returns. They must admit then that they are doomed.

• In Joel 2:31 we find out that “pouring of the spirit upon all flesh” will take place “before the great and the terrible day of the LORD’s coming” (before the second coming of Jesus).

• The phrase “are afar off” in Ac 2:39 consists of two Greek words: eis (purpose – not translated) and makran (afar off).

• The verse makes more sense when translated as follows:

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that purpose is afar

off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

This way God’s calling is applicable to us today. God can act on man the way He

acted on Saul called Paul. See Gal 1:12



v This is God’s message to us today


Ø The LORD shews himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. (see 2Ch 16:9)


Ø The Heavenly Father gives – (didomi “bestows, grants or yields”) much more of the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him. (see Lu 11:13)


Ø The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is given – (didomi “bestowed, granted or yielded”) to every man by God who works ALL in ALL. (see 1Co 12:6-7)


Ø The kingdom, and the power, and the glory is His, for ever. (see Mat 6:13)


Ø Our God is the Father of all, is above all, through us all, and in us all. (see Eph 4:6)

God bless

[Evangelion]

I haven't really thought of "power" and "gifts" as two separate things. As I understand it, the gifts were gifts of power.

Jesus had the power of the Holy Spirit, and so did his apostles. This power was later seen in various miraculous gifts (healing, prophecy, etc) which were given to certain people at certain times, but could not be carried on indefinitely because not everyone had the ability to pass them on.

I think it is possible to have gifts which are not granted by the Holy Spirit, but those gifts are not supernatural.

[jerzy]

Evangelion said: Jesus had the power of the Holy Spirit, and so did his apostles. This power was later seen in various miraculous gifts (healing, prophecy, etc) which were given to certain people at certain times, but could not be carried on indefinitely because not everyone had the ability to pass them on.


"but could not be carried on indefinitely because not everyone had the ability to pass them on"

Says who?

Who passed the power (or gifts) or rather worked through Jesus? Who passed the power (or gifts) or rather worked through the apostles?

Has the power of God been disabled?

It sounds like a pagan story to me.

Evangelion said: I think it is possible to have gifts which are not granted by the Holy Spirit, but those gifts are not supernatural.

Where do those gifts come from?

God bless

Edited by jerzy, 19 August 2009 - 08:36 AM.

[Jeremy]

jerzy, on Aug 19 2009, 09:16 AM, said:

Evangelion said

Jesus had the power of the Holy Spirit, and so did his apostles. This power was later seen in various miraculous gifts (healing, prophecy, etc) which were given to certain people at certain times, but could not be carried on indefinitely because not everyone had the ability to pass them on.


"but could not be carried on indefinitely because not everyone had the ability to pass them on"

Says who?

Who passed the power (or gifts) or rather worked through Jesus? Who passed the power (or gifts) or rather worked through the apostles?

Has the power of God been disabled?

It sounds like a pagan story to me.

God bless

Says Acts ch 8. Here's v 5-7:

Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them. The crowds with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing. For in the case of many who had unclean spirits, they were coming out of them shouting with a loud voice; and many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed.

But then v 14-17:

Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He [it] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

Philip clearly had the the power of the Holy Spirit to perform miracles, but it took the involvement of Peter and John from Jerusalem for the believers in Samaria to receive the Holy Spirit themselves. If Philip had this ability, why did the apostles deem it necessary to send Peter and John?

The answer is in v 18:

...the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands...

I hope that helps.

[jerzy]

Jeremy: I hope that helps.

No Jeremy, it doesn't help at all. Please read my posts and take a look at this from the perspective of entire scriptures. Don't base your understanding on one verse as the Trinitarians do.

God bless

[Jeremy]

jerzy, on Aug 19 2009, 09:43 AM, said:

Jeremy: I hope that helps.

No Jeremy, it doesn't help at all. Please read my posts and take a look at this from the perspective of entire scriptures. Don't base your understanding on one verse as the Trinitarians do.

God bless

If you want more than one verse, you can add 1 Cor. 13 v 8, but as I sense hostility from you every time I offer sincere answers to your posts, forgive me if I don't bother any more.

Over to Ev.

[jerzy]

No hostility intended here. Your avoidance of the obvious explained in my posts makes you to duck, I think.

Let me ask this.

Did Jesus have power or did the Father work through him?

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Did apostles have the power or did the Father (through Jesus) work through or around them?

Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.


Did Paul have the power?

2Ti 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.


Who made you to say that Jesus is the Lord?

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand...that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


Jeremy, you propose

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Do you mean that you have no knowledge? Did it vanish away?

Act 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

Why did Peter and John have to go to Samaria while Philip was there already and had "the power"?

Do you believe in the rule of the underworld based on V 7?

Don't duck Jeremy, not so easy, please

God bless

[jerzy]

One would imagine that Christadelphians would defend their belief

[ChickenSoup]

You did receive a few responses but still your posts are too long.

You might have better luck if you shorten them in the future - it's a matter of courtesy because for some people, like myself, reading off the computer screen for too long makes my eyes strain.

[jerzy]

The scriptures are much longer and we should read them.

There are 12 pages in this thread so one can read a page at the time. One can print if reading on the screen becomes difficult.

I have it on power point. Not sure if I can post here or somewhere else. I could e-mail it to you if you PM me your address. Just trying to help

People tend to formulate their understanding based on few chosen verses, running in circles, ignoring the entire scriptural evidence. The doctrine of Trinity is a good example.

This seems to be true here as you can see from the few responses. Christadelphians seem to contradict their statement of faith by overlooking not only the direct influence God exerts upon man but losing site from how much one's life depends on God.

In their extreme they may say that the prayer to God is just for training of discipline, as I have heard from one of them.

Hoping you read this thread before responding.

God bless

Edited by jerzy, 29 August 2009 - 08:26 AM.

[Robert]

jerzy, on Aug 12 2009, 09:16 AM, said:

I have found two contradicting issues reading "The Gift of Tongues".

In the B.A.S.F. (Birmingham Amended Statement of Faith) point 10 states that God used Jesus who was "of like nature with mortal man".

TRUTH TO BE RECEIVED
10. That being so begotten of God, and inhabited and used by God thru the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Jesus was Emmanuel, God with us, God manifested in the flesh -- yet was, during his natural life, of like nature with mortal man, being made of a woman, of the house and lineage of David, and therefore a sufferer, in the days of his flesh, from all the effects that came by Adam's transgression, including the death that passed upon all man, which he shared by partaking of their physical nature.

Yet apostols were given gifts which ceased

Chapter Five

Spiritual Defined

Of course, the application is all Scripture, Genesis through Revelation, but Paul's instruction to Timothy is quite clear: the OT gives the basis of all doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness (right living). Therefore, all teaching must have its foundation in the OT. (Cf. the Lord's instruction, Jn 5:39-47.)

The "sign gifts" (as they are called), tongues, interpretation of tongues, healings (other than Ja 5), all ceased when the need was fulfilled

The apostolic gifts were for a purpose, and when that purpose was fulfilled, they ceased.

Chapter Six

Conclusion

Prophecy dropped off and became more and more infrequent until John wrote the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all, Amen. With this, all prophecy as a supernatural gift spoken of in 13:8 stopped.

Therefore, the supernatural gift of prophecy can no longer be in operation, for there is no further supernatural revelation from the Father or the Son although there is further illumination.

However the Spirit of God has been active

The Spirit of God

The Spirit of God gives the desire, wisdom and power to work for God, to understand His word and to apply it to every area of life. His Spirit gives the desire and power to obey His commands, thereby inheriting the blessings of God

It appears to me that Mt 11:25 is applicable here

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Let me deal with the way God's work has been portrayed throught the scriptures.


THE HOLY SPIRIT


A SHORT STUDY FROM

1. The Old Testament 2. The New Testament

• Aspects that need to be considered

What God’s Holy Spirit is, What God’s Holy Spirit does,

What God’s Holy Spirit represents, How God’s Holy Spirit affects us today,

Effect on our beliefs.

Hebrew and Greek Words Translated ‘spirit’
Hebrew O.T. ruach (pronounced ‘ruw-ach’)

Greek N.T. pneuma (pronounced ‘new-ma’).

– The Greek word pneuma lies behind several English words, including ‘pneumatic’ and ‘pneumonia’.

In older translations of the Bible, the Spirit is sometimes referred to as the ‘Ghost’.

– The Authorised Version of the Bible was translated in 1611

– At that time, ‘ghost’ was simply another word for ‘spirit’ and had nothing to do with poltergeists and spirit-survival.

The Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are synonymous

– Modern translations invariably refer to the Holy Spirit.

– “HOLY” – Often indicates a special or separate occasion.

· THE OLD TESTAMENT - SPIRIT

• Though it might not always be put in these terms, it is clear that when men of God wrought miracles (as
Moses, Elijah, and Elisha); it was the Lord who wrought it “through” them.

Thou shalt speak all that I command thee…I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth…my people…out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt…Exo 7:2-5

And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt. Exo 9v23

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Rom 9:17

Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. Jam 5v17

• When the prophets, spoke messages from God- - “The word of the Lord came unto me”, and the like, the
New Testament tells us how this came about

“Holy men of God spoke as they were moved (led - phero not kineo) by the Holy Spirit.”2 Pet 1v22

• Words to the same effect are sometimes used by the prophets themselves, as when Moses tells us that “the
spirit of God came upon Baalam”, or when David says, “The spirit of the Lord spoke to me”.

• There are also some indications of a “quieter” work of the Spirit in the personal lives of men of God. E.G.

• When king Saul ceased to seek God’s ways, and the Spirit of God departed from him, to be replaced by “an
evil spirit from the Lord” 1 Samuel 16:14

• When David in his remorse pleads that God will not take away His Holy Spirit from him, but will uphold him
with a willing spirit, he is not asking for inspiration to speak or write messages from God, but for renewed
fellowship with God, to create in him a clean heart and strengthen him in righteous ways.

Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. Psalm 51:10-12

• The O.T. uses the phrase “Holy Spirit” [qodesh ruach] only 3 times in two particular Messianic passages:

…Do not cast me away from your presence, nor take your Holy Spirit from me”. Psa51:10-11


“But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; so He turned Himself against them as an enemy … Then He remembered the days of old, Moses and his people saying; … Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them?” Isa. 63:10, 11

• Psalm 51 foreshadows the One (Jesus) who is burdened with the world’s sins which he bears in the power of
God’s Holy Spirit.

• Isaiah 63 opens with a vision of Jesus in dyed garments, (vs. 1), come in fury to judge the world.


· The Spirit of God - Gods Creative Power

• The Spirit of God is active at the very beginning of the Bible.

‘the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters’ (Genesis 1:2).

· The Spirit of God is referred to throughout the Bible. O.T. e. g. ’s

‘You send forth your spirit, they are created: and you renew the face of the earth’ (Psalm 104:30)

· And Job

‘The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life’ (Job 33:4).

· Breath [spirit] in the nostrils

“Everything on dry land that had the breath [spirit] of life in its nostrils died.” (Genesis 7:22)

“The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath [spirit] from his nostrils.” (2 Samuel 22:16, Psalm 18:15)

“Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath [spirit] in his nostrils.” (Isaiah 2:22)

“as long as I have life within me, the breath [spirit] of God in my nostrils,” (Job27:3)

· Spirit [breath] in Ecclesiastes

“Man’s fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both; As one dies so dies the other. All have the same spirit [breath]; man has no advantage over the animal. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit [breath] of the man rises upward...?” (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21, Hebrew text)

“you do not know how the spirit [breath] enters the body formed in a mother's womb” (11:5)

“the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit [breath] returns to God who gave it.” (12:7)

· The Spirit of God-His Creative Power. If God were to withdraw His Spirit, the universe would dissolve into chaos again:

‘If He set his heart upon man, if He gather unto himself His spirit and his breath; all flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust’ (Job 34:14-15).

v So the Spirit of God is the power by which He created the earth and everything upon it, and continues to keep it alive.

· The Spirit = God’s Presence everywhere

Jerzy said:

Of course, the application is all Scripture, Genesis through Revelation, but Paul's instruction to Timothy is quite clear: the OT gives the basis of all doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness (right living). Therefore, all teaching must have its foundation in the OT. (Cf. the Lord's instruction, Jn 5:39-47.)

The "sign gifts" (as they are called), tongues, interpretation of tongues, healings (other than Ja 5), all ceased when the need was fulfilled.

Hi Jerzy

I completely agree with you on the gifts ceasing in spite of all we hear from the TV church people on the matter. The gifts in question did cease with the Apostolic era. That is not to say that God does not perform miracles today.

I do have a different view of things about,

“Therefore, all teaching must have its foundation in the OT. (Cf. the Lord's instruction, Jn 5:39-47.)”

The apostle Paul distinctly states that the gospel he preached was given to him by special revelation and unknown before by anyone (Eph. 3:2 3), including the other apostles, who were yet preaching the gospel (offering) of the kingdom. In v. 4, he identifies that gospel as “my knowledge.” For that reason he named it three times as “my gospel” (Rom. 2:16; 2 Tim. 2:8), and in Rom. 16:25 he identifies “his gospel,” as “a mystery kept secret since the world began.” Paul was sent by revelation (Gal. 2:2) to Jerusalem to explain his gospel to the apostles before him. This whole dispensation of grace commonly known as the church was a mystery, completely hidden in past ages and generations (Rom. 16:25 26; Eph. 3:5,9; Col. 1:26).

In his benediction (Rom. 16:25), Paul said, “Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began.”
In Paul’s words, three things are mentioned together in context to form an incontrovertible statement of fact.

1. He says, “my gospel.”

2. “a revelation.”

3. “a mystery kept secret since the world began.”

When Paul says “my gospel” was what was hidden since the world began, he did not include the apostles before him and say, “our gospel,” or “the gospel.” He further identifies it as a different gospel than the original apostles in Gal. 2:2 when he was sent up to Jerusalem by revelation and communicated to them “that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles.” He clearly distinguished his gospel to the Gentiles as something they were ignorant of, and being different from that which he and they were preaching to the Jews. That was the second offer of the kingdom from Matt. 10:16-18; 22:4-7 and was precisely what Peter was given the keys to open in Matt. 16:19 which he used in Acts 2:14-39, and especially so in 3:19-24.

Besides the above, in Eph. 3:4-5 Paul explicitly speaks of,

"...my knowledge in the mystery of Christ which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, but has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophet."

And that revelation to the holy apostles and prophets was approximately 14 years after his conversion (Gal. 1:17-19; 2:1-2) when he was sent through revelation by Holy Spirit to explain his gospel to them (Gal. 2:2). He did not speak of our knowledge, but my knowledge, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men.

Of course Paul’s message of salvation through Christ to the Gentiles was known from the beginning, but the present assembly and bride of Christ as Paul explains it was as he said: “…in other ages was not made known to the sons of men.”

In His grace

Robert

[jerzy]

Hi Robert

Are you sure that this is what I said?

Jerzy said:

Of course, the application is all Scripture, Genesis through Revelation, but Paul's instruction to Timothy is quite clear: the OT gives the basis of all doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness (right living). Therefore, all teaching must have its foundation in the OT. (Cf. the Lord's instruction, Jn 5:39-47.)

The "sign gifts" (as they are called), tongues, interpretation of tongues, healings (other than Ja 5), all ceased when the need was fulfilled.

Hi Jerzy

I completely agree with you on the gifts ceasing in spite of all we hear from the TV church people on the matter. The gifts in question did cease with the Apostolic era. That is not to say that God does not perform miracles today.


You seem to suggest that all responsibility was placed on Paul alone. What do you make of this?

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

[Robert]

jerzy, on Aug 29 2009, 08:57 PM, said:

Hi Robert

Are you sure that this is what I said?

Jerzy said:

Of course, the application is all Scripture, Genesis through Revelation, but Paul's instruction to Timothy is quite clear: the OT gives the basis of all doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness (right living). Therefore, all teaching must have its foundation in the OT. (Cf. the Lord's instruction, Jn 5:39-47.)

The "sign gifts" (as they are called), tongues, interpretation of tongues, healings (other than Ja 5), all ceased when the need was fulfilled.

Hi Jerzy

I completely agree with you on the gifts ceasing in spite of all we hear from the TV church people on the matter. The gifts in question did cease with the Apostolic era. That is not to say that God does not perform miracles today.


You seem to suggest that all responsibility was placed on Paul alone. What do you make of this?

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

It really doesn't make any difference what I think. It was Paul who said his gospel was “a mystery kept secret since the world began.” And yes, Paul was given the commission of taking his gospel to the Gentile world. Of course he had others who helped him, but it was still his gospel that he received from the Lord personally. The twelve were preaching the gospel of the kingdom; the same offering of the kingdom to Israel that they, the Lord, and John the Baptist preached before the cross.

No other apostle wrote any letters to the Gentiles, or said anything about "their gospel." When Paul was sent to Jerusalem to explain his gospel to the 12 it was plain (Gal. 2:2, 7-8) that there was a difference in their messages. Why would the Lord send Paul to explain something to the others if they were preaching the same thing?

If I understood you correctly, it was you who said the special gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. ch. 13-14 ceased with the apostolic age and I agreed with you. Your quote from Rom. 12:6 about there being prophets, and there were in the apostolic age.

You said:

"You seem to suggest that all responsibility was placed on Paul alone."

Yes that's what I quoted from Paul who said:

"But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as [the gospel] for the circumcised [was] to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we [should go] to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised."

When the Lord sent the 12 to preach to all nations (Matt. 28:19) it to make proselytes of the Gentiles, but it was still the gospel of the kingdom that belongs to Israel only.

It would perhaps clear away some of the confusion if we clarify the word “gospel” (euaggelion). In later Jewish and early church times it had a simple meaning of “glad tidings” or, “good news” about anything. But today the problem is the word ‘gospel’ has taken on a meaning other than the original NT usage.

In a corrupted form and apart from a biblical setting, it is common to hear it used to describe something as no more than absolutely true. In evangelical Christianity today most when speaking of the “gospel,” assign to it a narrow and explicit meaning of the way of salvation revealed.

Paul says the mystery of his gospel in this dispensation was: “that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel” (Eph. 3:6). Another mystery was that the Gentiles would be accepted in the same body of believers as co-equals of the Jews and that, completely apart from the Jewish ceremonial religion, the temple, and the kingdom message; a new dispensation (Eph. 3:2).

In His grace

Robert

[jerzy]

If I understood you correctly, it was you who said the special gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. ch. 13-14 ceased with the apostolic age and I agreed with you. Your quote from Rom. 12:6 about there being prophets, and there were in the apostolic age.

No, you didn't understand me correctly, Robert. I didn't say that anything ever ceased.

Besides, you are talking off the topic. I am talking about powers and gifts of Jesus and his apostles while you are talking about the gospel.

Could you read my thread before going any further?

[ChickenSoup]

jerzy, on Aug 29 2009, 03:14 AM, said:

The scriptures are much longer and we should read them.

No one reads the Bible all at once, either. Besides, the Bible is the word of God - your posts aren't.

Quote

There are 12 pages in this thread so one can read a page at the time. One can print if reading on the screen becomes difficult.

It's easy to post a little bit at a time. It's not too difficult.

If you have experience on discussion forums, that's usually the norm. People tend to be put off by large post.

Just trying to offer a suggestion.

[jerzy]

So what about the power point. There are 80+ slides. Is it also too much?

I did read many long posts because I wanted to know what people had to say. One can't say much by quoting one or two verses. We have seen it here, didn't we?

Edited by jerzy, 30 August 2009 - 07:40 PM.

[ChickenSoup]

jerzy, on Aug 30 2009, 03:33 PM, said:

... One can't say much by quoting one or two verses. We have seen it here, didn't we?

No one here takes part in discussions by quoting one or two verses. You are way too new on this forum to make such an accusation, which also probably puts people off.

[jerzy]

You seem to have mastered the art of making excuses.