11 replies to this topic

[Ronhickman]

"And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

— Judges 1:19

This appears to pose a problem concerning God's omnipotence. One young man said to me, "iron is to God as Kryptonite is to Superman." Okay guys, help me out on this one.

[Richie]

This shows that Bible critics don't actually think. Looks like the people of Judah ran out of faith when they saw the chariots of iron.

[Evangelion]

The "he" is obviously the tribe of Judah, not God. The Israelites' fear of iron chariots was well established before this event:

[indent]
Joshua 17:14-18
The descendants of Joseph said to Joshua, "Why have you assigned us only one tribal allotment? After all, we have many people, for until now the LORD has enabled us to increase in number."
Joshua replied to them, "Since you have so many people, go up into the forest and clear out a place to live in the land of the Perizzites and Rephaites, for the hill country of Ephraim is too small for you."
The descendants of Joseph said, "The whole hill country is inadequate for us, and the Canaanites living down in the valley in Beth Shean and its surrounding towns and in the Valley of Jezreel have chariots with iron-rimmed wheels."
Joshua said to the family of Joseph — to both Ephraim and Manasseh: "You have many people and great military strength. You will not have just one tribal allotment.
The whole hill country will be yours; though it is a forest, you can clear it and it will be entirely yours. You can conquer the Canaanites, though they have chariots with iron-rimmed wheels and are strong."
[/indent]

Clearly Judah's faith failed them.

[Ronhickman]

Ken Gilmore, on Jul 29 2009, 03:33 PM, said:

Richie, on Jul 30 2009, 04:36 AM, said:

This shows that Bible critics don't actually think. Looks like the people of Judah ran out of faith when they saw the chariots of iron.

If you spend any time on the more sophomoric atheist sites such as FSTDT, or read the comments on blogs such as Pharyngula, this tired refrain inevitably pops up - along with the one about pi = 3 and four-legged insects. There are many problems in the Bible which require careful thought when attempting a resolution. This is not one of them, as Evangelion has neatly shown. If anyone offers this problem as a refutation of theism, it is usually safe to assume that person has spent little serious time in thinking through the issue. (By the way, unless you have a very high tolerance for profanity and perversion, avoid casual reading of FSTDT and the comments in Pharyngula.)

Thanks again fellas! Makes perfect sense to me

[Evangelion]

Hey Ron, I've got another one for ya:

[indent]
Judges 4:1-3, 12-16, 23-24
The Israelites again did evil in the LORD's sight after Ehud's death.
The LORD turned them over to King Jabin of Canaan, who ruled in Hazor. The general of his army was Sisera, who lived in Harosheth Haggoyim.
The Israelites cried out for help to the LORD, because Sisera had nine hundred chariots with iron-rimmed wheels, and he cruelly oppressed the Israelites for twenty years.

[...]

When Sisera heard that Barak son of Abinoam had gone up to Mount Tabor,
he ordered all his chariotry — nine hundred chariots with iron-rimmed wheels — and all the troops he had with him to go from Harosheth-Haggoyim to the River Kishon.
Deborah said to Barak, "Spring into action, for this is the day the LORD is handing Sisera over to you! Has the LORD not taken the lead?" Barak quickly went down from Mount Tabor with ten thousand men following him.
The LORD routed Sisera, all his chariotry, and all his army with the edge of the sword. Sisera jumped out of his chariot and ran away on foot.
Now Barak chased the chariots and the army all the way to Harosheth Haggoyim. Sisera's whole army died by the edge of the sword; not even one survived!

[...]

That day God humiliated King Jabin of Canaan before the Israelites.
Israel's power continued to overwhelm King Jabin of Canaan until they did away with him.
[/indent]

Iron chariots? No problem for God!

[BroJon]

(Jdg 1:19) And the LORD was with Judah, and he took possession of the hill country, but he could not drive out the inhabitants of the plain because they had chariots of iron.

The problem with the this translation and few others along with it is that the Hebrew verse does not say "they," nor does it speak in plural! It is speaking in a singular form about GOD Almighty not being able to drive the enemy from the plains:

וַיְהִי יְהוָה אֶתיְהוּדָה, וַיֹּרֶשׁ אֶתהָהָר כִּי לֹא לְהוֹרִישׁ אֶתיֹשְׁבֵי הָעֵמֶק, כִּירֶכֶב בַּרְזֶל לָהֶם

Source: Link

Now I have no idea what that Hebrew says, but I was hoping there was a scholar here who could translate. But is all this implying Judah, even with God on his side, could not defeat the force becasue of iron chariots?

(Jos 17:18) but the hill country shall be yours, for though it is a forest, you shall clear it and possess it to its farthest borders. For you shall drive out the Canaanites, though they have chariots of iron, and though they are strong."

But here God tells them they will be successful against their foe. So what happened, why does the bible say God was with Judah, but they couldn't fefeat the chariots here, when they were defeated earlier?

What's your reading of this, contradiction?

Thanks

Edited by BroJon, 21 January 2010 - 02:53 PM.

[Mark Taunton]

The thread Steveyb3 linked to, and Evangelion's post there in particular, gives the basic answer. But the particular issue mentioned in the original comment could be expanded a little.

Firstly, the KJV translation of that Hebrew is pretty accurate (though the formatting of the Hebrew as you have copied it is broken):
[indent]Jdg 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
[/indent]In Judges 1:19, there are two masculine singular subjects, "Judah" and "the LORD" (Yahweh). Although in English we might think of "Judah" as referring to the people of the tribe of Judah (and hence implicitly being plural, "they"), in fact grammatically it is singular, both in English and in Hebrew. So when reading the second part of the sentence, "he could not drive out" is not forced to have Yahweh as its subject, as the sceptic supposes.

That Judah is singular and thus fits as the subject of the verbs in v19, is shown right from the beginning of the book:
[indent]Jdg 1:1 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?
2 And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.
3 And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.
[/indent]Also, from verse 17, just before the verse in question:
[indent]Jdg 1:17 And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hormah.
[/indent]The tribes are being spoken of as individuals, brothers in a family (as indeed the men from whom they descended were brothers). The use in v19 of the singular "Judah", with matching singular verbs, fits with that directly.

[BroJon]

Mark Taunton, on Jan 21 2010, 03:45 PM, said:

The thread Steveyb3 linked to, and Evangelion's post there in particular, gives the basic answer. But the particular issue mentioned in the original comment could be expanded a little.

Firstly, the KJV translation of that Hebrew is pretty accurate (though the formatting of the Hebrew as you have copied it is broken):
[indent]Jdg 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
[/indent]In Judges 1:19, there are two masculine singular subjects, "Judah" and "the LORD" (Yahweh). Although in English we might think of "Judah" as referring to the people of the tribe of Judah (and hence implicitly being plural, "they"), in fact grammatically it is singular, both in English and in Hebrew. So when reading the second part of the sentence, "he could not drive out" is not forced to have Yahweh as its subject, as the sceptic supposes.

That Judah is singular and thus fits as the subject of the verbs in v19, is shown right from the beginning of the book:
[indent]Jdg 1:1 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?
2 And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.
3 And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.
[/indent]Also, from verse 17, just before the verse in question:
[indent]Jdg 1:17 And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hormah.
[/indent]The tribes are being spoken of as individuals, brothers in a family (as indeed the men from whom they descended were brothers). The use in v19 of the singular "Judah", with matching singular verbs, fits with that directly.

I think the question is not if God was beaten, but whether or not Judah was beaten with God on his side.

If God be with us, who can stand against us?

Edited by BroJon, 21 January 2010 - 06:11 PM.

[BroJon]

Ken Gilmore, on Jul 29 2009, 09:33 PM, said:

Richie, on Jul 30 2009, 04:36 AM, said:

This shows that Bible critics don't actually think. Looks like the people of Judah ran out of faith when they saw the chariots of iron.

If you spend any time on the more sophomoric atheist sites such as FSTDT, or read the comments on blogs such as Pharyngula, this tired refrain inevitably pops up - along with the one about pi = 3 and four-legged insects. There are many problems in the Bible which require careful thought when attempting a resolution. This is not one of them, as Evangelion has neatly shown. If anyone offers this problem as a refutation of theism, it is usually safe to assume that person has spent little serious time in thinking through the issue. (By the way, unless you have a very high tolerance for profanity and perversion, avoid casual reading of FSTDT and the comments in Pharyngula.)

I'm sorry Ken but I think that is quite an arrogant stance to adopt.

For one thing, the verse clearly states that God was with Judah when Judah failed. It's only after having to sit, ponder, and think about the verse you come away with something else. Why do we have to do that? Because at first blush that verse does seem to say God and Judah lost to the iron chariots. That's what an unbiased reading gives me at any rate.

[Netsach Yisrael]

BroJon, on Jan 21 2010, 07:10 PM, said:

For one thing, the verse clearly states that God was with Judah when Judah failed. It's only after having to sit, ponder, and think about the verse you come away with something else. Why do we have to do that?

That seems a strange question. Why wouldn't one expect to have to sit and ponder? A large section of the Bible is full of parables, for example, with the stated intent of forcing people to sit and think.

[Evangelion]

BroJon, on Jan 22 2010, 04:40 AM, said:

Because at first blush that verse does seem to say God and Judah lost to the iron chariots. That's what an unbiased reading gives me at any rate.

You think the singular word "he" refers to God and Judah collectively?