40 replies to this topic

[Jeremy]

"The pain of childbirth may have benefits on which women who opt for painkilling epidurals miss out, a senior male midwife has said. Dr Denis Walsh, associate professor in midwifery at Nottingham University, said pain was a 'rite of passage' which often helped regulate childbirth. He said it helped strengthen a mother's bond with her baby, and prepared her for the responsibility of motherhood."

I thought this was very interesting in the light of Gen. 3 v 16.

Full article here.

[Huldah]

Well I'd better go read the article before I dismiss it as baloney!!!

I didn't have the epidural (scared of the worst side effect which can affect the rest of your life if it happens), and just had the odd gulp of gas & air to help me along. I don't know how the pain is supposed to help me become a better mother though!!! I adore my little baby no matter how little or how much pain I endured!

[granny]

Huldah, on Jul 13 2009, 09:48 PM, said:

Well I'd better go read the article before I dismiss it as baloney!!!

I didn't have the epidural (scared of the worst side effect which can affect the rest of your life if it happens), and just had the odd gulp of gas & air to help me along. I don't know how the pain is supposed to help me become a better mother though!!! I adore my little baby no matter how little or how much pain I endured!

Well I dismiss it as baloney without reading the article. Sounds like a load of rubbish to me and I note it was said by a MALE.

[Rebel]

granny, on Jul 13 2009, 12:09 PM, said:

Well I dismiss it as baloney without reading the article. Sounds like a load of rubbish to me and I note it was said by a MALE.

Haha, i'll be a rebel. I thought it was a good article. They don't say "Don't go epidural", they are worried that too many go for it, and it might not be safe in some ways, as nobody did a research about them. And they say that women don't even know that there are other options of coping with pain.

My husband is a physio, and he suspects that epidural might not be very safe, he had 3 women patients who had particular pain in their back in a particular spot.

I had my girl at home, and i was very happy that i wasn't in the hospital. Of course people are allowed to choose what they prefer. But hypnosis, support of the midwife and other stuff are extremely important. While people either don't know about it, or are not offered those options. I know little about yoga, but i guess it'd be useful too. There's a list of things woman can do to relieve the pain.

Jeremy, i don't think you should be worried that women can opt out from pain in labour now They have plenty to stress out afterwards

Huldah is right, gas is generally a safer option compared to epidural.

Edited by Rebel, 13 July 2009 - 12:58 PM.

[Jeremy]

Rebel, on Jul 13 2009, 01:39 PM, said:

Jeremy, i don't think you should be worried that women can opt out from pain in labour now They have plenty to stress out afterwards

I wasn't worrying a bit! (Good grief - see what I've started!)

[Rebel]

I didn't really think you were worried

Edited by Rebel, 13 July 2009 - 12:55 PM.

[Huldah]

Haha Jeremy - you'll learn!!!

Well I had no epidural, but if I had been at home I'd have been in trouble as well as I needed forceps in the end, so that disproves what it says in the article about epidurals making women more likely to need forceps! No amount of pushing was making little madam come out and I worry about what would have happened if I had been at home!!

[Jeremy]

Huldah, on Jul 13 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

Haha Jeremy - you'll learn!!!

In this department, I honestly doubt it!

[Evangelion]

Quote

Pain in childbirth 'a good thing'

It's not. It's really, really not.

[Rebel]

Huldah, on Jul 13 2009, 12:59 PM, said:

Haha Jeremy - you'll learn!!!

Well I had no epidural, but if I had been at home I'd have been in trouble as well as I needed forceps in the end, so that disproves what it says in the article about epidurals making women more likely to need forceps! No amount of pushing was making little madam come out and I worry about what would have happened if I had been at home!!

I was 5 minutes away from the hospital, and i had best 'birthing support' woman with me. Hospitals are good I am not against them.

I don't think your case disproves increased need of forceps after Epidural. Some need forceps without epidural, but i think they are saying that lots more people need forceps when they have epidural.

lil madam So funny how people call their kidlets.

Edited by Rebel, 14 July 2009 - 12:37 AM.

[BDW]

If it is a "good thing" then why was it instituted as a punishment?

[Rebel]

BTW i didn't say pain was a good thing. What i mean is sometimes pain (let's rather say natural anasthetics) can be a safer/better option compared to some other things.

[Flappie]

Tamish had no pain during the final stages of labour, prelabour was a different story though, but the midwife and doctor kept telling her to push with/through the pain anyway. The look of "aaaargh" on her face was because she was so annoyed with them, rather than any pain.

[R2D2]

Rebel, on Jul 13 2009, 11:11 PM, said:

Huldah, on Jul 13 2009, 12:59 PM, said:

Haha Jeremy - you'll learn!!!

Well I had no epidural, but if I had been at home I'd have been in trouble as well as I needed forceps in the end, so that disproves what it says in the article about epidurals making women more likely to need forceps! No amount of pushing was making little madam come out and I worry about what would have happened if I had been at home!!

I was 5 minutes away from the hospital, and i had best birthing support with me. Hospitals are good I am not against them.

Did you hear in the news Rebel that the government is proposing not allowing registered midwives or professional doulas to deliver at home anymore? Insurance companies will not touch insuring home birth professionals either.

Edited by R2D2, 14 July 2009 - 01:15 AM.

[R2D2]

granny, on Jul 13 2009, 10:09 PM, said:

Huldah, on Jul 13 2009, 09:48 PM, said:

Well I'd better go read the article before I dismiss it as baloney!!!

I didn't have the epidural (scared of the worst side effect which can affect the rest of your life if it happens), and just had the odd gulp of gas & air to help me along. I don't know how the pain is supposed to help me become a better mother though!!! I adore my little baby no matter how little or how much pain I endured!

Well I dismiss it as baloney without reading the article. Sounds like a load of rubbish to me and I note it was said by a MALE.

Sorry Jeremy, I'm with Granny on this one.

Apparently though, when pain relief was first introduced for women in childbirth it caused a lot of controversy as member of the clergy felt that it was allowing women to avoid God's punishment.

[Rebel]

Oops, I should call her other word, maybe 'Birthing support'. R2D2, can you edit quote in your post like i changed it above?

Edited by Rebel, 14 July 2009 - 12:52 AM.

[Richie]

R2D2, on Jul 13 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

Rebel, on Jul 13 2009, 11:11 PM, said:

Huldah, on Jul 13 2009, 12:59 PM, said:

Haha Jeremy - you'll learn!!!

Well I had no epidural, but if I had been at home I'd have been in trouble as well as I needed forceps in the end, so that disproves what it says in the article about epidurals making women more likely to need forceps! No amount of pushing was making little madam come out and I worry about what would have happened if I had been at home!!

I was 5 minutes away from the hospital, and i had best birthing support with me. Hospitals are good I am not against them.

Did you hear in the news Rebel that the government is proposing not allowing registered midwives or professional doulas to deliver at home anymore? Insurance companies will not touch insuring home birth professionals either.

Good thing! I would have been a widower three times by now if we didn't have hospital births.

[Richie]

I don't think we can call birth in childbirth a punishment. Punishment for what? Eve's sin? Are all women guilty of Eve's sin?

[R2D2]

Richie, on Jul 14 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

Good thing! I would have been a widower three times by now if we didn't have hospital births.

It probably won't stop some home birthers though. They will just go ahead with no professional there at all rather than give birth in a hospital, which of course is a concern, since a professional can arrange transfer to the nearest hospital if things go wrong.

[Rebel]

Richie, on Jul 14 2009, 02:37 AM, said:

R2D2, on Jul 13 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

Did you hear in the news Rebel that the government is proposing not allowing registered midwives or professional doulas to deliver at home anymore? Insurance companies will not touch insuring home birth professionals either.

Good thing! I would have been a widower three times by now if we didn't have hospital births.

Come on Richie. So women are allowed to birth with non-professionals (non-registered support), but they shouldn't be allowed to birth with registered nurses?
This is not "hospitals versus no hospitals", Rich. Have you read it?

R2D2, do doctors give any reasons for this proposal rather than more money for them for doing epidurals, Caesars and so on?

[Rebel]

R2D2, on Jul 14 2009, 03:48 AM, said:

It probably won't stop some home birthers though. They will just go ahead with no professional there at all rather than give birth in a hospital, which of course is a concern, since a professional can arrange transfer to the nearest hospital if things go wrong.

If things go wrong, you just go to the hospital where they expect you anyway, because you booked in just in case something does go wrong. I don't think it depends on registration.

[R2D2]

Rebel, on Jul 14 2009, 12:53 PM, said:

R2D2, on Jul 14 2009, 03:48 AM, said:

It probably won't stop some home birthers though. They will just go ahead with no professional there at all rather than give birth in a hospital, which of course is a concern, since a professional can arrange transfer to the nearest hospital if things go wrong.

If things go wrong, you just go to the hospital where they expect you anyway, because you booked in just in case something does go wrong. I don't think it depends on registration.

I'm talking about a very small group of women who are very determined not to give birth in a hospital no matter what. I think they are called "free birthers?"

[R2D2]

Rebel, on Jul 14 2009, 12:49 PM, said:

R2D2, do doctors give any reasons for this proposal rather than more money for them for doing epidurals, Caesars and so on?

It's not the doctors doing this, it's the government since the government is responsible for the umbrella indemnity insurance scheme for midwives and they are proposing not to cover it for homebirths.

Apparently, the new policy was brought about after a baby died at home during a homebirth and the midwife in question did a lot of things incorrectly. I guess the lack of supervision of the midwife is the main problem insurancewise.

[Rebel]

R2D2, on Jul 14 2009, 04:05 AM, said:

Apparently, the new policy was brought about after a baby died at home during a homebirth and the midwife in question did a lot of things incorrectly. I guess the lack of supervision of the midwife is the main problem insurancewise.

Would she do things correctly in the hospital?

I chose unregistered birthing supporter over registered midwife anyway, coz 1st one was way better for me.

Edited by Rebel, 14 July 2009 - 03:38 AM.

[R2D2]

Rebel, on Jul 14 2009, 01:33 PM, said:

R2D2, on Jul 14 2009, 04:05 AM, said:

Apparently, the new policy was brought about after a baby died at home during a homebirth and the midwife in question did a lot of things incorrectly. I guess the lack of supervision of the midwife is the main problem insurancewise.

Would she do things correctly in the hospital?

Probably not, however I guess from the perspective of insurers if there were other hospital workers around they might notice or compensate for the mistakes that one individual makes? This would reduce their overall risk and reduce payouts for when things go wrong. We live in a very litigious society.

[Flappie]

R2D2, on Jul 14 2009, 08:46 AM, said:

Rebel, on Jul 13 2009, 11:11 PM, said:

Huldah, on Jul 13 2009, 12:59 PM, said:

Haha Jeremy - you'll learn!!!

Well I had no epidural, but if I had been at home I'd have been in trouble as well as I needed forceps in the end, so that disproves what it says in the article about epidurals making women more likely to need forceps! No amount of pushing was making little madam come out and I worry about what would have happened if I had been at home!!

I was 5 minutes away from the hospital, and i had best birthing support with me. Hospitals are good I am not against them.

Did you hear in the news Rebel that the government is proposing not allowing registered midwives or professional doulas to deliver at home anymore? Insurance companies will not touch insuring home birth professionals either.

Not quite. What they introduced is that health professionals are required to have insurance before they can register. The problem is that insurance companies will not touch insuring home birth professionals, which means they are unable to register, and attending a home birth as a midwife without registration is illegal.

Richie, it's not a good thing.

[Jeremy]

R2D2, on Jul 13 2009, 11:50 PM, said:

Sorry Jeremy, I'm with Granny on this one.

It's fine, really. I honestly don't have an opinion about it. The article just made me think of Gen. 3 when I saw it, that's all.

[R2D2]

Flappie, on Jul 14 2009, 02:46 PM, said:

[

Not quite. What they introduced is that health professionals are required to have insurance before they can register. The problem is that insurance companies will not touch insuring home birth professionals, which means they are unable to register, and attending a home birth as a midwife without registration is illegal.

I stand corrected. So really, until now they have been operating without any indemnity insurance? That's quite surprising give the nature of the industry.

I assume that in other countries where home birth is more common e.g. in Europe the government provides this necessary cover?

[Tamish]

Just to clarify, the woman who lost the baby didn't have a midwife with her, she was in labour for 3 days and declined to go to hospital because of previous bad experiences. She also didn't call the midwife who had been seeing her at home because she had lost trust in medical professionals, which is really sad as a good homebirth midwife is usually very on the ball.

I was going to have a home birth but my midwife was concerned about how my labour was going so she got me to go to a hospital (which I hadn't pre booked so you don't have to). She told me later that mine was the weirdest labour she'd ever experienced. The hospital staff made me so angry I'm determined that the next one will be at home (DV).

Edited by Tamish, 14 July 2009 - 08:36 AM.

[R2D2]

Jeremy, on Jul 14 2009, 05:48 PM, said:

R2D2, on Jul 13 2009, 11:50 PM, said:

Sorry Jeremy, I'm with Granny on this one.

It's fine, really. I honestly don't have an opinion about it. The article just made me think of Gen. 3 when I saw it, that's all.

Maybe I need to find you a nice article about the joys and benefits of organic farming by hand . Using machinery and pesticides is cheating you know!