13 replies to this topic

[Abishua]

Isa 48:16

(JPS) "Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this: From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord GOD hath sent me, and His spirit."

Why does this text seem to differentiate the Lord GOD from His spirit?

[Evangelion]

If anything, it proves that God's spirit is not God Himself. Definitely not a Trinitarian support text.

The NET Bible is clearer:

[indent]
Isaiah 48:16
Approach me! Listen to this!
From the very first I have not spoken in secret;
when it happens, I am there."
So now, the sovereign LORD has sent me, accompanied by his spirit.
[/indent]

I hope this helps.

[Abishua]

Evangelion, on Jun 23 2009, 12:12 AM, said:

If anything, it proves that God's spirit is not God Himself. Definitely not a Trinitarian support text.

The NET Bible is clearer:

[indent]
Isaiah 48:16
Approach me! Listen to this!
From the very first I have not spoken in secret;
when it happens, I am there."
So now, the sovereign LORD has sent me, accompanied by his spirit.
[/indent]

I hope this helps.

Do you believe that "his spirit" is referring to God's mental disposition?

[Evangelion]

No, I believe it is referring to His Holy Spirit, for the purpose of divine inspiration.

[Abishua]

Evangelion, on Jun 23 2009, 07:14 AM, said:

No, I believe it is referring to His Holy Spirit, for the purpose of divine inspiration.

God's power then?

[Evangelion]

Yep, God's power.

[Abishua]

Evangelion, on Jun 23 2009, 07:59 AM, said:

Yep, God's power.

cool

[Evangelion]

[Mercia2]

I thought Christadelphians believed the Holy Spirit was Gods active force in the world, that is to say God onnipresent. It is the trinitarians I know who say the Holy Spirit is a seperate person? So who do you think the Holy Spirit is if not God?

Quote

So now, the sovereign LORD has sent me, accompanied by his spirit.

So now the sovereign LORD has sent me (the Messiah) accompandied by His Spirit (the power of God).

[Mercia2]

Abishua, on Jun 23 2009, 12:51 PM, said:

Evangelion, on Jun 23 2009, 07:14 AM, said:

No, I believe it is referring to His Holy Spirit, for the purpose of divine inspiration.

God's power then?

Yes Gods power.
In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit is likended to Gods hand. We cannot cut off someones hand and say its someone else.

[Evangelion]

Mercia, when people want to talk to me, they don't address my hand.

[Mercia2]

How do you mean talk to the hand? The hand is representitive of action and power, the same action and power that belongs to the person its attached to? If we have the Holy Spirit indwelling then that is why we are called "temples of God", not temples of the Holy Spriit, but God. If we say by being temples of God the word "God" here is used an an abstract for our own higher nature then that is atheism/gnosticism, it surely has to be one or the other? There cannot be another omnipresent Spirit capabable on indwelling multitudes simultaneously as with the early Church unless the Holy Spirit is God, "God is Spirit" (clearly not a mindset as that is atheism), but the Holy Spirit. What other solution can their be?

I was brought up a Catholic and I was always told the "Holy Ghost" was a person other than God part of a trinity and in my mind I made another God. Acts 5:3-4. Peter confronts Ananias as to why he lied to the Holy Spirit and tells him that he had “not lied to men but to God.” We can also know that the Holy Spirit is God because He possesses the characteristics of God. For example, His omnipresence is seen in Psalm 139:7-8, “Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.” Then in 1 Corinthians 2:10-11, we see the characteristic of omniscience in the Holy Spirit. “But God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”

I do not believe God has created another omnipresent being called the Holy Spirit. Why would God even need to do that if God Himself is omnipresent? So the Holy Spirit, being omnipresent has to be God.

[jerzy]

We need to look across the entire scriptures to establish the fundamental pattern and not wrestle some "bent" verses to establish contradiction.

The Holy Spirit has always been missing from the verses denoting the Father as the only true God and Jesus Christ sent by the Father.

Few examples

1. The Father referred to Jesus as “my servant”.
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth…
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

2. The Father enabled Jesus by His spirit
Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 42:1 …I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

3. We are to pray to and worship the Father only
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

4. The Father is only true God and our life eternal is subject to this belief
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (the Father. See V 1) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1Co 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Please note that each of the epistles opens with such acknowledgement.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father...and one Lord Jesus Christ...

5. The Father worked through Jesus
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

6. Jesus received power (exousia – competency, token of control) after his resurrection
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

7. Jesus received the revelation from the Father
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

8. Jesus will return this power and be subdued to the Father
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

9. We have access to the Father through Jesus
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

10. Jesus is our mediator before the Father
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

11. We should thank (pray to) the Father
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

12. After the resurrection Jesus has the same Father and the same God as we have.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

13. Jesus has his authority above him (the head) after the resurrection
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

14. Jesus prayed “always” to his Father
Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always…

15. Jesus lives by the power of the Father
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

16. The father revealed Jesus in Paul
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17. The Father revealed Himself in Jesus
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God...
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

18. Jesus is Abraham’s (and subsequently David's) seed
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Act 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

19. Jesus was born by the Power of the Father.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

20. Jesus was chosen as we were before the foundation of the world. It doesn't make us Gods, dos it?
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

21. The Father is instrumental in bringing people to Jesus
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

22. The Father does all things by His command (His Word) or by His Spirit
Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Psa 33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word (Rhema) of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.



Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And the list seems to go on and on.

How many times did you see the Holy Spirit as God?


God bless

Edited by jerzy, 14 August 2009 - 08:24 AM.

[Doc]

Mercia2, on Jun 23 2009, 07:47 PM, said:

How do you mean talk to the hand? The hand is representitive of action and power, the same action and power that belongs to the person its attached to? If we have the Holy Spirit indwelling then that is why we are called "temples of God", not temples of the Holy Spriit, but God. If we say by being temples of God the word "God" here is used an an abstract for our own higher nature then that is atheism/gnosticism, it surely has to be one or the other? There cannot be another omnipresent Spirit capabable on indwelling multitudes simultaneously as with the early Church unless the Holy Spirit is God, "God is Spirit" (clearly not a mindset as that is atheism), but the Holy Spirit. What other solution can their be?

I was brought up a Catholic and I was always told the "Holy Ghost" was a person other than God part of a trinity and in my mind I made another God. Acts 5:3-4. Peter confronts Ananias as to why he lied to the Holy Spirit and tells him that he had “not lied to men but to God.” We can also know that the Holy Spirit is God because He possesses the characteristics of God. For example, His omnipresence is seen in Psalm 139:7-8, “Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.” Then in 1 Corinthians 2:10-11, we see the characteristic of omniscience in the Holy Spirit. “But God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”

I do not believe God has created another omnipresent being called the Holy Spirit. Why would God even need to do that if God Himself is omnipresent? So the Holy Spirit, being omnipresent has to be God.

Mercia2: I certainly appreciate how you have expressed yourself in this post. I too was raised Roman Catholic. I have believed for a number of decades that God is manifested in 3 individual persons - that is, I have been "Trinitarian" most of my life. Just recently, I have begun to look at this a bit differently scripturally. I still am not fully persuaded in my own mind what is the absolute biblical truth regarding this matter. Truthfully, I can see what appears to be valid arguments on both sides. So, maybe you can provide some valuable input for me.

Based on my recent studies, I do not understand the Holy Spirit to be a separate Person - I believe the Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit, therefore a part of God’s essence. God’s Spirit is as much God as my spirit is me. My spirit is not a separate person - it is me - a viable, functioning, part of my existence. It is essentially ME. I am not my body, as my spirit exists with or without my body. I understand the Spirit of God in the same manner. God’s Spirit is essentially God - but not another God.

Do you find this to be too simplistic of an understanding, or do you find it inaccurate based on your study of Scripture? I look forward to your feedback.

BLESSINGS. Doc