26 replies to this topic

[theMadJW]

It is wonderful that you Christadelphians know the Trinity Dogma is a slander against God and Christ!
How do YOU help people to understand what the Holy Spirit really is?

[Evangelion]

We let the Bible speak for itself.

[God&me]

theMadJW, on Jun 10 2009, 04:25 PM, said:

It is wonderful that you Christadelphians know the Trinity Dogma is a slander against God and Christ!
How do YOU help people to understand what the Holy Spirit really is?

The Holy Spirit is a person, Jn 14: 16-17 & 26, Jn 15: 26. Jn 16: 7-8, & 13-15.
He can be grieved, That means, Upset, Made sorry, Eph 4: 30.
He can be Quenched, [hindered]. 1 Thess 5: 19. The Greek says, Don't hinder HIS operations.
He is God. Acts 5: 3-4.

Edited by God&me, 10 June 2009 - 06:11 PM.

[nsr]

No, he's not. His assertions should not be taken seriously at face value - check the original Greek for yourself (if you have access to it) and judge what God&me says for yourself.

If the Holy Spirit is a person, then according to Matt 1:20, the Holy Spirit is Jesus' Father. Discuss

[God&me]

Thisisme, on Jun 10 2009, 06:16 PM, said:

God&me, on Jun 10 2009, 01:10 PM, said:

theMadJW, on Jun 10 2009, 04:25 PM, said:

It is wonderful that you Christadelphians know the Trinity Dogma is a slander against God and Christ!
How do YOU help people to understand what the Holy Spirit really is?

The Holy Spirit is a person, Jn 14: 16-17 & 26, Jn 15: 26. Jn 16: 7-8, & 13-15.
He can be grieved, That meas, Upset, Made sorry, Eph 4: 30.
He can be Quenched, [hindered]. 1 Thess 5: 19. The Greek says, Don't hinder HIS operations.
He is God. Acts 5: 3-4.

I take it you are not a Christadelphian.

No I am not a christadelphian, I am someone who believes the Bible.
What made you think that I'm not a christadelphian

[nsr]

Probably the fact that you were saying things that disagree with the Bible was what tipped her off

[nsr]

Another question for discussion:

Quote

Ps 51:11
Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me

Is this David saying "O First Person of the Trinity, do not take the Third Person of the Trinity away from me?". If the Holy Spirit is a person, why doesn't David just talk to him directly?

[God&me]

nsr, on Jun 10 2009, 06:25 PM, said:

No, he's not. His assertions should not be taken seriously at face value - check the original Greek for yourself (if you have access to it) and judge what God&me says for yourself.

If the Holy Spirit is a person, then according to Matt 1:20, the Holy Spirit is Jesus' Father. Discuss

[1]I have shown you what the Bible says, and what the Greek says. You can do what you want with it.

[2]If you check the original Hebrew and Greek, you will see that I am right.

[3] You will find the trinity in Matt 1: 18--23. And Matt 28: 19.

[nsr]

Quote

I have shown you what the Bible says, and what the Greek says.

Are these two different things?

Quote

If you check the original Hebrew and Greek, you will see that I am right.

I have. You're not right . These empty assertions just make you look even more unconvincing than your weak arguments.

Quote

You will find the trinity in Matt 1: 18--23. And Matt 28: 19.

So is the Holy Spirit Jesus' Father?

[God&me]

nsr, on Jun 10 2009, 07:21 PM, said:

Another question for discussion:

Quote

Ps 51:11
Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me

Is this David saying "O First Person of the Trinity, do not take the Third Person of the Trinity away from me?". If the Holy Spirit is a person, why doesn't David just talk to him directly?

[1] The Old testament Saints didn't have the Holy Spirit like the new testament Saints have, That is what makes the New Testament a better one, In The Old Testament the Spirit would come upon a Prophet priest or King. That is why we read, [The word of the lord came to me, saying], Or, [The hand of the Lord was upon me].
The New Testament Saints have the Spirit all the time because the re-birth is unique to the Church age.

[2] Look at Ps 51: 1-12. The Spirit left David because he sinned. Keep the Bible in its right context,

Edited by God&me, 10 June 2009 - 06:41 PM.

[God&me]

nsr, on Jun 10 2009, 07:30 PM, said:

Quote

I have shown you what the Bible says, and what the Greek says.

Are these two different things?

Quote

If you check the original Hebrew and Greek, you will see that I am right.

I have. You're not right . These empty assertions just make you look even more unconvincing than your weak arguments.

Quote

You will find the trinity in Matt 1: 18--23. And Matt 28: 19.

So is the Holy Spirit Jesus' Father?

You have to say I am wrong about the Greek, because if you admit that I am right, [Which I am] then you know you will have to change your believing.

[nsr]

God&me, on Jun 10 2009, 07:40 PM, said:

[1] The Old testament Saints didn't have the Holy Spirit like the new testament Saints have, That is what makes the New Testament a better one, In The Old Testament the Spirit would come upon a Prophet priest or King. That is why we read, [The word of the lord came to me, saying], Or, [The hand of the Lord was upon me].
The New Testament Saints have the Spirit all the time because the re-birth is unique to the Church age.

[2] Look at Ps 51: 1-12. The Spirit left David because he sinned. Keep the Bible in its right context,

1. The Holy Spirit came upon people in the OT plenty of times.
Ex 31:3 - Bezalel
Nu 11:25 - seventy elders
Jud 6:34 - Gideon
1 Sam 11:6 - Saul
are just four examples from a quick concordance search.

2. You didn't answer the question. Here it is again:

Quote

Is this David saying "O First Person of the Trinity, do not take the Third Person of the Trinity away from me?". If the Holy Spirit is a person, why doesn't David just talk to him directly?

[nsr]

God&me, on Jun 10 2009, 07:44 PM, said:

You have to say I am wrong about the Greek, because if you admit that I am right, [Which I am] then you know you will have to change your believing.

No, I say you're wrong about the Greek because I can consult the original text and scholarly translations from people who are qualified to speak on the subject as experts. You're just a confused individual who believes his uninformed opinion qualifies as truth because of some delusion that you have the Holy Spirit.

[Mercia2]

Quote

The Holy Spirit is a person, Jn 14: 16-17 & 26, Jn 15: 26. Jn 16: 7-8, & 13-15.

The Holy Spirit is God and God was in Jesus and we are told the Holy Spirit was in Jesus in all fullness. Yet God is personified in the Bible and yet we are told no man has seen God at anytime (in that literal sense) as "God is Spirit".

The Bible personifies everything. It personifies nations, wisdom, God, the Holy Spirit etc etc etc, what is the point arguing about this if no one has seen the Holy Spirit myself included though when I asked for the Holy Spirit (as I trusted in the Bible and did what it said - Luke 11:13), I know for a FACT I received it, yet I have never spoken in tongues or predicted the future beyond my interpretation of prophecy. Does that mean those witnessing Spirit gifts which are not the Holy Spirit but simply one EFFECT of the Holy Spirit have ceased? I dont know? I am more inclined to believe the Christadelphian idea it possibly has, but God is not limited by their interpretation of Corinthians and it is not for me or them to proclaim in absolute terms like some infallible pope they have, in all instances, because they dont know. The tradgedy of all this is we need the Holy Spirit to be saved, we need to ASK as this is fundemental to free will and we need to the Holy Spirits inspiration to remember things which an angel may have said to us but veiled from us until such a time that veil of forgetfulness is removed (as was my experience the moment I asked for the Holy Spirit) and we need the Holy Spirit most emphatically to understand salvation issues when we study the Bible. Why would Revelation 18 say the the Church of Babylons lampstand (which represents Holy Spirit enlightenment) has been removed so they are blind to truth in the Scriptures, which Jesus threatened to do to the seven churches if they did not repent, if the most fundemental role of the Holy Spirit (which will never cease) is related to enlightening us when we ask for help and lean on God to help us understand His Word, not the arm of the flesh.

I urge you all to start afresh. Say this prayer, "please God I repent of my sins though I am not worthy of forgivness and I accept I can never truly understand the Bible without your help, therefore according to Luke 11:13 I ask for the Holy Spirit" and then study the Word. Before I did this the Bible was impossible for me. Yet I refused to surrender to God for ages like a stubborn child proud of my own intelligence and education I insisted I was going to work it out for myself. Within a week of asking for the Holy Spirit I was being shown by God revelation after revelation within His Word, instantly after praying for help. So now I glory only in Him, not in myself or the work of others.
Just say what ever is sincere to you.

Edited by Mercia2, 10 June 2009 - 07:17 PM.

[Mercia2]

Whether the Holy Spirit is a "ghost" or a "Spirit" is just a diversion from the salvation issue. As the word "ghost" carrys connatations unwelcome to many including the Christadelphians and we are all happy and in agreement with the word "Spirit", can we please leave it at that?

I just want to say, the great irony is, the Church that typifies the last days are so sure they have increased in theological knowledge and are in need of nothing more in that context, but without the Holy Spirit (without doing what Luke 11:13 says and asking for it), they know not they are naked, wretched and blind.

That is what this verse says.....

Quote

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

http://www.biblegate...=Revelation%203

For wealth read knowledge/wisdom for gold refined in the fire, read knowledge/wisdom derived from the Bible refined in the fire means refined through the Holy Spirit.

This we need so we are not "wretched and miserable and naked" = are not born again and have not had our sins forgiven (*yet know it not)
"and poor and blind" = think we are experts on the Bible but are horrendously deceived.

Edited by Mercia2, 10 June 2009 - 07:19 PM.

[Mercia2]

Quote

[3] You will find the trinity in Matt 1: 18--23. And Matt 28: 19.

The Christadelphians acknowledge the triune purpose of Gods plan, i.e the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and in the oppossite sense, the triune nature of mans plan, 666.
Let us just leave it at that please?

They do not believe in the Trinity with a capital T for good reason, because the early Christians never spoke of it and the Churches definition of it talks about "substance" in some bizzare materialistic way which is nonsense. The number 3 has a very important meaning in the Bible and Scripture but when Lord Jesus was being tempted by Satan in Matt 4 it was not God being tempted by Satan, but Jesus the man and the Holy Spirit is God, "God is Spirit", Jesus was full of God/the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is like Gods hand (*in old Testament Bible symbolism) or Gods active power and influence in the earth. When Jesus says in Revelation 3 that if we ask, I and the Father will come and sup with you, He means via the Holy Spirit - and as God is personified in the Bible yet we are explicitly told no one has seen God and "God is Spirit" then an appeal to personfication in this context is meaningless.

Edited by Mercia2, 10 June 2009 - 07:59 PM.

[Matt Smith]

Mercia2, on Jun 10 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

Quote

[3] You will find the trinity in Matt 1: 18--23. And Matt 28: 19.

The Christadelphians acknowledge the triune purpose of Gods plan, i.e the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,

How about you let Christadelphians speak for themselves on this subject...

Personally I disagree with you analysis.

[Simon-Ben-Zion]

God&me, on Jun 10 2009, 07:27 PM, said:

nsr, on Jun 10 2009, 06:25 PM, said:

No, he's not. His assertions should not be taken seriously at face value - check the original Greek for yourself (if you have access to it) and judge what God&me says for yourself.

If the Holy Spirit is a person, then according to Matt 1:20, the Holy Spirit is Jesus' Father. Discuss

[1]I have shown you what the Bible says, and what the Greek says. You can do what you want with it.

[2]If you check the original Hebrew and Greek, you will see that I am right.

[3] You will find the trinity in Matt 1: 18--23. And Matt 28: 19.

But how do you explain that in the Greek txt of the NT the spirit is ambiguous?
that's why some Bibles say "the spirit itself" and not "the spirit himself" which is a wrong translation
of the Greek text of the NT

[nsr]

Hi SimonBenZion,

If you are hoping for a response from God&me, he has been banned.

[Simon-Ben-Zion]

nsr, on Jun 11 2009, 11:49 PM, said:

Hi SimonBenZion,

If you are hoping for a response from God&me, he has been banned.

I can't say I'm sorry to hear about that cos I'm not

Edited by Simon-Ben-Zion, 12 June 2009 - 01:01 AM.

[Matt Smith]

Simon-Ben-Zion, on Jun 11 2009, 06:00 PM, said:

nsr, on Jun 11 2009, 11:49 PM, said:

Hi SimonBenZion,

If you are hoping for a response from God&me, he has been banned.

I can't say I'm sorry to hear about that cos I'm not

Be nice...

[Mercia2]

Matt Smith, on Jun 11 2009, 12:56 AM, said:

Mercia2, on Jun 10 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

Quote

[3] You will find the trinity in Matt 1: 18--23. And Matt 28: 19.

The Christadelphians acknowledge the triune purpose of Gods plan, i.e the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,

How about you let Christadelphians speak for themselves on this subject...

Personally I disagree with you analysis.

The "triune plan of God" was a quote from a Christadelphian I debated on this board years ago, or I would not have said it.

No one can deny that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit adds upto 3, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and that 3 has a numerical significance in the Bible either in relation to God or man i.e = 666 etc.

So what do you disagree with?

Edited by Mercia2, 12 June 2009 - 10:11 AM.

[Mercia2]

On the Holy Spirit and wisdom, my Christadelphian teacher at the start of each course lesson began by asking us all to pray to God for wisdom and understanding as we studied the Bible. This was wonderful. Put simply, how do you think our prayers are answered when we ask? = Gods power/the Holy Spirit.
His prayer worked.

[Matt Smith]

Mercia2, on Jun 12 2009, 03:06 AM, said:

Matt Smith, on Jun 11 2009, 12:56 AM, said:

Mercia2, on Jun 10 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

Quote

[3] You will find the trinity in Matt 1: 18--23. And Matt 28: 19.

The Christadelphians acknowledge the triune purpose of Gods plan, i.e the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,

How about you let Christadelphians speak for themselves on this subject...

Personally I disagree with you analysis.

The "triune plan of God" was a quote from a Christadelphian I debated on this board years ago, or I would not have said it.

Then I would have disagreed with him too.

Quote

No one can deny that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit adds upto 3

Yes, I can

Quote

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

So?

Quote

3 has a numerical significance in the Bible either in relation to God or man i.e = 666 etc.

666 has to do with "the man", not mankind in general.

I see no other connection to three.....

[Mercia2]

Quote

3 has a numerical significance in the Bible either in relation to God or man i.e = 666 etc.

666 has to do with "the man", not mankind in general.

I see no other connection to three.....

6 is the number of man, this is Bible numerology. We are supposed to understand what this number means in relation to the Old Testament and what it means when used three times. It is hard to deny 3 does not have a significant meaning in the Bible when its use in Revelation 13 is intended to convey a meaning. Which is to signify mans plan, as opposed to Gods.

8 represents the Messiah

JESUS ( IESOUS in Greek ) = 888

The New Testament of the Bible was originally
written in Greek. In the Greek alphabet
each of its letters has a numeric value
(like roman numerals).

Using the Greek spelling for Jesus
(Iesous (Strong's#2424)),
the numeric values of these Greek letters add up to:
.I . E . S .. O . U .. S. = JESUS
10 + 8 +200 +70 +400 +200 = 888

THE THREE-FOLD COMBINATIONS OF A NUMBER

denotes the essence of such number, the concentration of the significance of the number thus expressed.

* 444 is the gematria or number of the word "DAMASCUS," which is the oldest city in the world; four being the world number.
* 666 is the number of man, and it symbolises fitly, therefore, the essence of human wisdom, and also of imperfection.
* 888 is the number or gematria of the name "JESUS."
* 999 is the number connected with judgment, hence the numerical value of the phrase th orgh mou (tee orgee mou), my wrath, is 999. The same number is very prominent in the judgment on Sodom.

As we read the Bible's description of God, we find the number 3 popping up repeatedly. For example, God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. We find the number 3 representing God as if it was His trademark. The curious thing about this trademark is that it shows up in various places, starting with his creation... It took God six days to create everything. He could have done it much sooner but He chose six (3 x 2) days. He made the atom with 3 parts (electron, neutron, proton) and used it to create a world with 3 parts (land, sea, air), all within a universe with 3 parts (matter, time, space). He created time with 3 divisions (past, present, future) and gave space its 3 dimensions (up/down, left/right/ forward/backward). He created matter with its normal, you guessed it, 3 states (solid, liquid, gas). When He created life on earth, this trademark was not far behind. Animals were created to live in 3 areas (in land, in water, in air). He made their survival to depend on 3 essentials (food, water, air), the food providing energy in 3 forms (protein, carbohydrates, fat), the water made up of 3 parts (two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen) and the air primarily consisting of 3 parts (78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, .93% argon.). His greatest creation, man, was made in 3 parts also (body, soul, spirit): "...I pray God your whole Spirit and Soul and Body be preserved..." 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now one would think God would get tired of using the number 3, but He also stamps his trademark throughout His Word the Bible... 66 (3 x 22) Books in the bible [39 (3 x 13) in the Old Testament- 27 (3 x 9) in the New Testament] 31,173 (3 x 10,391) Verses in the Bible [23,214 (3 x 7738) in the O.T.- 7959 (3 x 2653) in the N.T.] Within the Bible itself we find many appearances of the number 3. There were 333 prophecies concerning the coming of Jesus Christ into the world. Jesus Christ was crucified at the age of 33, after a ministry that lasted 3 years. He spent nine (3 x 3) hours on the cross, with 3 of those hours in darkness. He was buried for 3 days and 3 nights, and resurrected on the 3rd day. In fact, the word three is mentioned in the Bible 543 (3 x 181) times! Yes, the universe and the Bible have their Creator's trademark stamped all over them. God wants us to recognize both as His handiwork.

This is because when we look to the Old Testament we see three represents or seems to signify Gods plan...

It was on the third day that Jesus rose again from the dead. This was Divine in operation, and Divine in its prophetic foreshowing in the person of Jonah (Matthew 12:39,40; Luke 11:29; Jonah 1:17). It was the third day on which Jesus was "perfected" (Luke 13:32). It was at the third hour He was crucified; and it was for three hours (from the 6th to the 9th) that darkness shrouded the land.

Hosea 6:2
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

- signifies that in the third Christian millenium, "a day to the Lord is as a thousand years", that the sons of God will be revealed

John 2:1
And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there

- signifies in the third Christian millenium there will be a spiritual marriage

Quote

The Third Day As A Literary Motif

As with the use of the number three in a series, which conveys implications and expectations beyond the normal conventional meaning, so the third day often carries with it an additional sense or nuance. It seems apparent from the scriptural record that the third day was selected for a given activity or matter at hand for some distinct purpose and attendant emphasis, which those who were involved in the situation understood. Likewise those who later heard or read of the incident would be familiar with the various possible emphases in the choice. The abundant use of the third day argues for viewing the third day as a literary motif that could be employed for several reasons.

http://www.bible.org...hp?page_id=5786

Revelation 8:12
And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Revelation 9:15
And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Revelation 8:7
The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Revelation 8:8
And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 8:9
And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

As three marks completeness and perfection of testimony, so it marks the number of spiritual worshippers; and intimates that true spiritual worshippers would always be few.

COMPLETENESS OF PEOPLE

* Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
* Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
* Gershom, Kohath, and Merari.
* Saul, David, and Solomon.
* Noah, Daniel, and Job.
* Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
* Peter, James, and John, etc.

COMPLETENESS OF APOSTASY (Jude 11)

* "The way of Cain."
* "The error of Balaam."
* "The gainsaying of Korah."

COMPLETENESS OF DIVINE JUDGMENT (Daniel 6:25-28).

* MENE. God hath NUMBERED thy kingdom and finished it.
* TEKEL. Thou art WEIGHED in the balances and found wanting.
* PERES. Thy kingdom is DIVIDED and given to the Medes and Persians.

THE THREE GIFTS OF GRACE:

Faith, Hope, and Love, five times repeated.

THE THREE-FOLD NATURE OF MAN:

Spirit, and Soul, and Body, the man consisting of neither separately, but of the whole three together.

THE THREE-FOLD NATURE OF TEMPTATION (1 John 2:16)

* "The lust of the flesh."
* "The lust of the eyes."
* "The pride of life."

These seen in our first parents when Eve saw (Genesis 3:6) that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was--

* "Good for food,"
* "Pleasant to the eyes,"
* "To be desired to make one wise."

THE SPIES

brought three things which testified to the divinely perfect goodness of the land; and the substantial realities proved the truth of Gods word: "Grapes, figs, and pomegranates" (Numbers 13:23).

JORDAN

was three times divided, the perfection of the Divine miracle (Joshua 4; 2 Kings 2:8,14).

THE THREE DAYS' SEARCH

for Elijah was conclusive testimony that he could not be found (2 Kings 2:17).

THE GREAT FEASTS

were three; Unleavened Bread, Weeks, Tabernacles (Deuteronomy 16:16).

THE SHEET

let down three times to Peter was the fulness of the testimony as to the admission of the Gentiles into the Church (Acts 10:16).

THREE THINGS PREDICATED OF GOD
(in John's Gospel and Epistles)

* "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16). We are therefore to "Walk in love" (Ephesians 5:2).
* "God is spirit" (John 4:24, RV, margin). We are exhorted to "Walk in the spirit" (Galatians 5:16).
* "God is light"* (1 John 1:5). We are to "Walk in the light" (Ephesians 5:8).

There are many more....

Edited by Mercia2, 12 June 2009 - 09:10 PM.

[Matt Smith]

Mercia2, on Jun 12 2009, 01:52 PM, said:

Quote

3 has a numerical significance in the Bible either in relation to God or man i.e = 666 etc.

666 has to do with "the man", not mankind in general.

I see no other connection to three.....

6 is the number of man, this is Bible numerology.

Ahhh.... Where does the BIble speak of this "numerology"? And, where does it say it is important?

Quote

8 represents the Messiah

Where does it say this in the Bible?

Quote

* 444 is the gematria or number of the word "DAMASCUS," which is the oldest city in the world; four being the world number.
* 666 is the number of man, and it symbolises fitly, therefore, the essence of human wisdom, and also of imperfection.
* 888 is the number or gematria of the name "JESUS."
* 999 is the number connected with judgment, hence the numerical value of the phrase th orgh mou (tee orgee mou), my wrath, is 999. The same number is very prominent in the judgment on Sodom.

Of the above numbers, only 666 occurs in Scripture. In Rev 13, this is the only time we are told that the number has anything to do with a name (Rev 13:17-18).

The rest of this is in the realm of fantasy...

[Mercia2]

Quote

Of the above numbers, only 666 occurs in Scripture. In Rev 13, this is the only time we are told that the number has anything to do with a name (Rev 13:17-18).

The rest of this is in the realm of fantasy...

So has 666 anything to do with the method of numbers equalling what they represent in the Bible? And if so how can it or why should it only apply once?

Edited by Mercia2, 13 June 2009 - 04:57 PM.