335 replies to this topic

[Abishua]

What does it mean when scripture states that the world/all things were created though or in Jesus?

Edited by Abishua, 09 June 2009 - 01:50 PM.

[God&me]

Abishua, on Jun 9 2009, 02:49 PM, said:

What does it mean when scripture states that the world/all things were created though or in Jesus?

It means exactly what it says, Jesus created all things. John 1: 1-14. Ephsians 3: 9. Colossians 1: 12--17.

[Jeremy]

God&me, on Jun 9 2009, 04:00 PM, said:

It means exactly what it says, Jesus created all things. John 1: 1-14. Ephsians 3: 9. Colossians 1: 12--17.

Since Jesus himself attributes the original creation to someone other than himself (Matthew 19 v 4), we can safely say this is not what it means - and I presume it was that which prompted Abishua to ask the original question anyway.

Abishua: there are two creations spoken about in the NT. One is the natural creation recorded in the opening chapters of Genesis, the other is the "new" or spiritual creation which God began in the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. The passages God&me refers to are actually examples of that.

I think the general idea of this kind of language is that this new creation took place on account of or because of Jesus, which of course matches our understanding of what God accomplished by sending Jesus to die for our sins. He was always at the very centre of God's purpose of salvation, and all that God did was with him in mind.

If there are other passages you're thinking of, let us know what they are and I'm sure people here will try and answer them one by one in a way which does justice to the whole of Bible teaching.

[Evangelion]

I have an article on this subject that might be helpful. Click here to read it.

[Abishua]

Thank you for your help!

[Evangelion]

My pleasure.

[Jim1]

Abishua:

What does it mean when scripture states that the world/all things were created though or in Jesus?


God&me:

It means exactly what it says, Jesus created all things. John 1: 1-14. Ephesians 3:9. Colossians 1: 12-17.


Jeremy:

Since Jesus himself attributes the original creation to someone other than himself (Matthew 19 v 4), we can safely say this is not what it means - and I presume it was that which prompted Abishua to ask the original question anyway.


Jesus:

(ASV) Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man came to save that which was lost.

(ASV) Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said, Have ye not read, that he who made [them] from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh? 6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

(ASV) Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(ASV) Matthew 20:17 And as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples apart, and on the way he said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests and scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, 19 and shall deliver him unto the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify: and the third day he shall be raised up.

(ASV) Matthew 22:41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, What think ye of the Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The son] of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in the Spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet? 45 If David then calleth him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no one was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

(ASV) John 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, [even] the Son of man, who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(ASV) John 6:27 Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. 28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What then doest thou for a sign, that we may see, and believe thee? what workest thou? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, He gave them bread out of heaven to eat. 32 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

(ASV) John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he that is from God, he hath seen the Father.


Jim:

As shown above, Jesus sometimes spoke of Himself in the third person. So His use of the third person in Matthew 19:4 does not preclude the referent of the third person in Matthew 19:4 from being Jesus Himself.

To be accurate, however, John does not say in John 1:3 and 1:10 that the Word / the Only Begotten from the Father created all things / the world, but that all things / the world came into being THROUGH (the preposition “dia” with a genitive case object) Him.

In Hebrews 1:1-2 (1:2), the author states that God is the One who made the ages / worlds and that He did this THROUGH (the preposition “dia” with a genitive case object) the Son.

In Colossians 1:16, Paul says that all things were created IN/BY (the preposition “en” with a dative case object) and THROUGH (the preposition “dia” with a genitive case object) and TO/FOR (the preposition “eiV” with an accusative case object) the Son.


Jesus and John:

(ASV) John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. ... 9 There was the true light, which lighteth every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not. ... 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. ... 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath [explained].

(ASV) John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

(ASV) 1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life—2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare unto you the life, the eternal, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us—3 that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also, that ye also may have fellowship with us: yea, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.


Jim:

It is clear from the passages quoted above that the Word and the Son of God are synonymous in John’s Gospel and epistle.


Jeremy:

I think the general idea of this kind of language is that this new creation took place on account of or because of Jesus, which of course matches our understanding of what God accomplished by sending Jesus to die for our sins.


Jim:

In contrast to the idea of “through,” which is expressed by the preposition “dia” with a genitive case object, as in John 1:3 and 1:10 and Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:2 (discussed above), the idea of “on account of” or “because of” is expressed by the preposition “dia” with an accusative case object. Compare these two different uses of “dia” in the verses quoted below.

(ASV) John 1:7 The same [the Baptist] came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through [dia with a genitive case object] him.

(ASV) John 1:17 For the law was given through [dia with a genitive case object] Moses; grace and truth came through [dia with a genitive case object] Jesus Christ.

(ASV) John 1:31 And I knew him not; but that he should be made manifest to Israel, for this cause [because of this / dia with an accusative case object] came I baptizing in water.

(ASV) John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, that standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of [dia with an accusative case object] the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is made full.

(ASV) John 4:4 And he must needs pass through [dia with a genitive case object] Samaria.

So the Word (the Son) was with God from the beginning, before the world came into being, and it was through (dia with a genitive case object) Him that the world came into being, and then He became flesh (a physical human being) and was named Jesus, the Only Begotten Son of God from the Father. This sequence described by John shows Jesus as the Word being involved in the original creation and subsequently taking human form as the Only Begotten Son of God. As John states, the world had already come into being through (dia with a genitive case object) Him when He became flesh and came into the world for the purpose of enabling human beings to become children of God through belief in Him.

[Evangelion]

Jim, how do you intend to prove that Jesus was the pre-existent Word? Scripture does not tell us this, so where are you getting the idea from?

[Jeremy]

Jim1: welcome to BTDF.

I'm finding it hard to see in your post which bits are quoting other posts, and which bits are your response. Are you able to edit it? Or just use the "quote" feature - it should be straightforward. Otherwise your comments might pass us by.

Feel free to introduce us to yourself here.

[Jim1]

Jeremy, on Jul 8 2009, 12:42 PM, said:

Jim1: welcome to BTDF. :)

I'm finding it hard to see in your post which bits are quoting other posts, and which bits are your response. Are you able to edit it? Or just use the "quote" feature - it should be straightforward. Otherwise your comments might pass us by.

In my message (post #7), I immediately preceded each section with a heading followed by a colon, such as "Jim:" or "Jeremy:" or "Jesus and John:," to identify the source of that section.

Edited by Jim1, 08 July 2009 - 02:16 PM.

[Jim1]

Evangelion, on Jul 8 2009, 12:27 PM, said:

Jim, how do you intend to prove that Jesus was the pre-existent Word? Scripture does not tell us this, so where are you getting the idea from?

In my message (post #7), the language in the section identified as coming from "Jesus and John:" requires "the Word" to be "the Only Begotten from the Father." He "became flesh" and was "in the world" (which had come into being "through Him" in the first place) as "the Only Begotten from the Father" and "dwelt among us," being "full of grace of truth," this "grace and truth" coming "through Jesus Christ" (the One who "became flesh" and "dwelt among us"), as stated in John 1:10-17.

John says in John 1:1-4 that "life" was in "the Word," and he says in John 1:14 that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," and he says in 1 John 1:1-3 that he "heard" and "saw" and "handled" (touched) this "Word of life" that had been"with the Father" and that "was manifested to us." So this "Word" that had been "with the Father" and "was manifested to us" is such a way (by "becoming flesh") that He could be "heard" and "seen" and "handled" (touched) was not an idea, but a human being with a physical body of "flesh" that could be heard and seen and touched.

John says in John 1:1-4 and 1:10 that this "Word" was "with God" in "the beginning" before "the world came into being through Him," and John quotes Jesus in John 17:5 as having said that "before the world was," He had been "with" the "Father," which describes "the Word."

So all of the language in John 1:1-17 and 17:5 and 1 John 1:1-3 consistently establishes that "the Word" was "with God / the Father" in "the beginning," and that "the world" then "came into being through Him," and that this "Word" then came to be "in the world" by being "manifested to us" as "the Only Begotten from the Father" by "becoming flesh" and "dwelling among us," so that we could "hear" and "see" and "handle" (touch) Him.

[Jeremy]

Jim1, on Jul 8 2009, 02:16 PM, said:

In my message (post #7), I immediately preceded each section with a heading followed by a colon, such as "Jim:" or "Jeremy:" or "Jesus and John:," to identify the source of that section.

Thank you. You will still find the quote function useful, and I think it's probably the preferred format on BTDF - it's certainly the one we're used to, anyway. Suggestion offered constructively.

Quote

(ASV) Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man came to save that which was lost.

(ASV) Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said, Have ye not read, that he who made [them] from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh? 6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

(ASV) Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(ASV) Matthew 20:17 And as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples apart, and on the way he said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests and scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, 19 and shall deliver him unto the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify: and the third day he shall be raised up.

(ASV) Matthew 22:41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, What think ye of the Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The son] of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in the Spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet? 45 If David then calleth him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no one was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

(ASV) John 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, [even] the Son of man, who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(ASV) John 6:27 Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. 28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What then doest thou for a sign, that we may see, and believe thee? what workest thou? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, He gave them bread out of heaven to eat. 32 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

(ASV) John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he that is from God, he hath seen the Father.


Jim:

As shown above, Jesus sometimes spoke of Himself in the third person. So His use of the third person in Matthew 19:4 does not preclude the referent of the third person in Matthew 19:4 from being Jesus Himself.

I think the onus is on you to prove that in Matt. 19 v 4 Jesus is referring to himself in the third person. Just because he does elsewhere is hardly proof that he's doing so here. That would lead us to the preposterous conclusion that Jesus is doing this every time he uses the third person, which obviously can't be right. Incidentally, I don't see how anyone can be sure who spoke the words of John 3 v 13 (for instance) - was it Jesus or the Gospel writer? - but what I do note from the other passages you quote is that Jesus uses a title to refer to himself. In Matt. 19 v 4 he doesn't, and the straightforward reading of the text is that Jesus is talking about someone else. Anyway, he tells us plainly in v 6 who the "he" of v 4 is - "What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." So unless Jesus when says both "he" and "God" he means himself, it's clear who he's referring to.

Quote

(ASV) John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. ... 9 There was the true light, which lighteth every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not. ... 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. ... 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath [explained].

(ASV) John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

(ASV) 1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life—2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare unto you the life, the eternal, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us—3 that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also, that ye also may have fellowship with us: yea, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.


Jim:

It is clear from the passages quoted above that the Word and the Son of God are synonymous in John’s Gospel and epistle.

I'm afraid that's not true. It certainly proves that there's a connection between the Word of God and the Son of God, but it certainly does prove that they're synonymous. We only have to see how Jesus uses the word "word" in John's Gospel to see that it can't possibly always be referring to himself - try it; there are dozens of verses where it doesn't work (too many to type out here).

Quote

In contrast to the idea of “through,” which is expressed by the preposition “dia” with a genitive case object, as in John 1:3 and 1:10 and Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:2 (discussed above), the idea of “on account of” or “because of” is expressed by the preposition “dia” with an accusative case object. Compare these two different uses of “dia” in the verses quoted below.

(ASV) John 1:7 The same [the Baptist] came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through [dia with a genitive case object] him.

(ASV) John 1:17 For the law was given through [dia with a genitive case object] Moses; grace and truth came through [dia with a genitive case object] Jesus Christ.

(ASV) John 1:31 And I knew him not; but that he should be made manifest to Israel, for this cause [because of this / dia with an accusative case object] came I baptizing in water.

(ASV) John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, that standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of [dia with an accusative case object] the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is made full.

(ASV) John 4:4 And he must needs pass through [dia with a genitive case object] Samaria.

So the Word (the Son) was with God from the beginning, before the world came into being, and it was through (dia with a genitive case object) Him that the world came into being, and then He became flesh (a physical human being) and was named Jesus, the Only Begotten Son of God from the Father. This sequence described by John shows Jesus as the Word being involved in the original creation and subsequently taking human form as the Only Begotten Son of God. As John states, the world had already come into being through (dia with a genitive case object) Him when He became flesh and came into the world for the purpose of enabling human beings to become children of God through belief in Him.

If I understand your argument correctly, you're saying that for dia to mean "because of" it must take an accusative case object. I don't have the Greek to know if this is true or not; there are others here who might be able to help; but looking your list of examples I'm not convinced that substituting "because of" where a genitive case object is used alters the sense in every case. But as I say, this strand of the argument I need to leave to someone with the Greek.

Kind regards.

Edited by Jeremy, 08 July 2009 - 03:11 PM.
Typo

[Jim1]

Jeremy:

I think the onus is on you to prove that in Matt. 19 v 4 Jesus is referring to himself in the third person.

Jim:

My point was not that the referent of the third person in Matthew 19:4 is necessarily Jesus. Rather, my point was that it is not necessarily someone other than Jesus, because, as I showed in my previous message, Jesus sometimes refers to Himself in the third person. Therefore, Matthew 19:4 cannot legitimately be used to prove that Jesus is not the creator. If you're going to offer Matthew 19:4 as proof that Jesus is not the creator, then you have to be able to prove that Jesus never referred to Himself in the third person, which you cannot do, as I showed in my previous message. My point was not to turn Matthew 19:4 into proof that Jesus is the creator. Rather, my point was to disqualify Matthew 19:4 as proof that He is not the creator, which I think I successfully accomplished.

I also added the clarification that John does not actually say that the Word did the creating. Rather, John says that things in general and the world in particular came into being "through" ("dia" with a genitive object, expressing the means or agency through which the action of the verb occurs) the Word. So the Father did the creating, and the Word (the Son) was the agent through which the Father did the creating. Exactly what that means no one knows. This does not suggest that the Word did the creating without the Father. Rather, it suggests that the Word (the Son) played a major role in the Father creating everything that is. So the Word (the Son) is at least a co-creator with the Father.

Edited by Jim1, 08 July 2009 - 04:30 PM.

[Jeremy]

Jim1, on Jul 8 2009, 05:29 PM, said:

My point was not that the referent of the third person in Matthew 19:4 is necessarily Jesus. Rather, my point was that it is not necessarily someone other than Jesus, because, as I showed in my previous message, Jesus sometimes refers to Himself in the third person. Therefore, Matthew 19:4 cannot legitimately be used to prove that Jesus is not the creator. If you're going to offer Matthew 19:4 as proof that Jesus is not the creator, then you have to be able to prove that Jesus never referred to Himself in the third person, which you cannot do, as I showed in my previous message. My point was not to turn Matthew 19:4 into proof that Jesus is the creator. Rather, my point was to disqualify Matthew 19:4 as proof that He is not the creator, which I think I successfully accomplished.

We've already dealt with this. Try as you may to say that v 4 might not mean that Jesus wasn't creator, v 6 says proves that he wasn't. Jesus calls the creator "God", not just "he". Sorry, but the original post of mine stands: Matt. 19 v 4 (with v 6) is proof positive that Jesus wasn't the creator of Genesis.

[Jim1]

Jeremy:

I'm afraid that's not true. It certainly proves that there's a connection between the Word of God and the Son of God, but it certainly does prove that they're synonymous. We only have to see how Jesus uses the word "word" in John's Gospel to see that it can't possibly always be referring to himself - try it; there are dozens of verses where it doesn't work (too many to type out here).

Jim:

Nowhere does John refer to "the Word" in John 1 or in 1 John 1 as the word of God. You are altering John's language to fit your own concept of what you think "the Word" in John 1 and 1 John 1 should mean. Meanwhile, you are dismissing the actual language in John 1 and 1 John 1 that John DOES use in reference to "the Word," which language proves that "the Word" and "the Only Begotten from the Father" (Jesus) are synonymous. Thus, you are replacing John's languge in John 1 and 1 John 1 with your own language in order to replace John's definition of "the Word" in John 1 and 1 John 1 with your own definition of "the Word," which you define as the word of God instead of the Son of God.

Your only argument is that since you know what is said about the word of God elsewhere (other than in John 1 and 1 John 1) in the New Testament, therefore you can ignore what John says about "the Word" in John 1 and 1 John 1 in favor of what is said about the word of God (the spoken or written word) elsehwhere in the New Testament.

You're so committed to replacing John's language and John's meaning in John 1 and in 1 John with your own language and your own meaning that you actually ignore John's statement in John 1:14 that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, the glory of the Only Begotten from the Father," which identifies "the Word" as "the Only Begotten from the Father" in the "flesh," who "dwelt among us," which obviously refers to the Son of God (Jesus), not to the spoken or written word of God.

Actually, John himself never uses the phrase "the word of God" in his Gospel. The only place in his Gospel where this phrase appears is verse 10:35, where John quotes Jesus using the phrase. In 1 John 1, where he describes the same thing that he describes in John 1, John refers to "the Word" as "the Word of life," not as the word of God.

The only place in 1 John where John uses the phrase "the word of God" is verse 2:14, where John says that "the word of God is in you." This is ambiguous, because there is no way to know whether John is referring to the ideas of the spoken or written word of God being inside of the believer or whether he is referring to the the Son of God ("the Word of life" in 1 John 1 and "the Word" in John 1) indwelling the believer through His indwelling Spirit.

In John's Revelation (assuming that this is the same John), John uses the phrase "the word of God" in verses 1:2, 1:9, 6:9 and 20:4, where he appears to be referring to the spoken or written word of God. However, in verses 19:11-16, where John describes the glorious return of the Son of God to earth with His saints (compare verses 19:7-8 and verse 19:14), John explicitly identifies the Son of God (the "King of kings and Lord of lords" in verse 19:16) as "the Word of God" (verse 19:13).

Saying that "the Word" cannot refer to the Son of God in John 1 or in 1 John 1 because of the way that the phrase "the word of God" is used elsewhere in the New Testament in reference to the spoken or written word of God is no different than saying that "the Word" cannot refer to the Son of God in Revelation 19:11-16 (19:13) because of the way that the phrase "the word of God" is used elsewhere in the New Testament in reference to the spoken or written word of God.

Obviously, "the Word" is used in reference to the Son of God in some passages in the New Testament and "the word" is used in reference to the spoken or written word of God in other passages in the New Testament. To ignore either one because of the other is to pretend that the Bible does not say what it says.

The two verses in the New Testament that most explicitly identify "the Word" as the Son of God are John 1:14 and Revelation 19:13.

In John 1:1-17 (1:10 and 1:14), John says that "the Word" predated the world and then "became flesh" and "dwelt among us" as "the Only Begotten from the Father." In John 17:5, Jesus says the same thing about Himself (the Son of God). Therefore, obvously, "the Word" in John 1:1-17 is Jesus, just as "the Word" in 1 John 1:1-3 is Jesus, and just as "the Word" in Revelation 19:11-16 (19:13) is Jesus.

The fact that the phrase "the word of God" elsewhere in the New Testament refers to the spoken or written word of God does not change the fact that in these particular passages, "the Word" refers to the Son of God (Jesus), who predated the world and played a role in the creation before He became flesh (a human being named Jesus) and dwelt among us and died for our sins.

[Jim1]

[

Edited by Jim1, 08 July 2009 - 06:22 PM.

[Evangelion]

Jim1, on Jul 8 2009, 03:15 PM, said:

Evangelion, on Jul 8 2009, 12:27 PM, said:

Jim, how do you intend to prove that Jesus was the pre-existent Word? Scripture does not tell us this, so where are you getting the idea from?

In my message (post #7), the language in the section identified as coming from "Jesus and John:" requires "the Word" to be "the Only Begotten from the Father." He "became flesh" and was "in the world" (which had come into being "through Him" in the first place) as "the Only Begotten from the Father" and "dwelt among us," being "full of grace of truth," this "grace and truth" coming "through Jesus Christ" (the One who "became flesh" and "dwelt among us"), as stated in John 1:10-17.

John says in John 1:1-4 that "life" was in "the Word," and he says in John 1:14 that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," and he says in 1 John 1:1-3 that he "heard" and "saw" and "handled" (touched) this "Word of life" that had been"with the Father" and that "was manifested to us." So this "Word" that had been "with the Father" and "was manifested to us" is such a way (by "becoming flesh") that He could be "heard" and "seen" and "handled" (touched) was not an idea, but a human being with a physical body of "flesh" that could be heard and seen and touched.

John says in John 1:1-4 and 1:10 that this "Word" was "with God" in "the beginning" before "the world came into being through Him," and John quotes Jesus in John 17:5 as having said that "before the world was," He had been "with" the "Father," which describes "the Word."

So all of the language in John 1:1-17 and 17:5 and 1 John 1:1-3 consistently establishes that "the Word" was "with God / the Father" in "the beginning," and that "the world" then "came into being through Him," and that this "Word" then came to be "in the world" by being "manifested to us" as "the Only Begotten from the Father" by "becoming flesh" and "dwelling among us," so that we could "hear" and "see" and "handle" (touch) Him.

You're reading backwards. You're starting with John 1:14 and applying it retrospectively to the words of John 1:1-3. But Jesus is not even mentioned in the first three verses, and he is definitely not described as "the Word". On the contrary, Jesus is described as "the Word made flesh". In other words, Jesus is something that the Word became; he is not what the word already was.

I suggest you read my article here.

[Jim1]

Jeremy:

Try as you may to say that v 4 might not mean that Jesus wasn't creator, v 6 says proves that he wasn't. JESUS CALLS THE CREATOR "GOD", NOT JUST "HE". Sorry, but the original post of mine stands: Matt. 19 v 4 (with v 6) is PROOF POSITIVE THAT JESUS WASN'T THE CREATOR of Genesis.


The Bible:

(ASV) Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said, Have ye not read, that HE WHO MADE [THEM] FROM THE BEGINNING MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5 and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh? 6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh. WHAT THEREFORE GOD HATH JOINED TOGETHER, LET NOT MAN PUT ASUNDER. ... 23 And Jesus said unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, It is hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25 And when the disciples heard it, they were astonished exceedingly, saying, WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? 26 And Jesus looking upon [them] said to them, WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE; BUT WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.


(ASV) Mark 2:5 And JESUS SEEING THEIR FAITH SAITH unto the sick of the palsy, SON, THY SINS ARE FORGIVEN. 6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7 Why doth this man thus speak? HE BLASPHEMETH: WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS BUT ONE, [EVEN] GOD? 8 And straightway Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, saith unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins are forgiven; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT THE SON OF MAN HATH AUTHORITY ON EARTH TO FORGIVE SINS (he saith to the sick of the palsy), 11 I say unto thee, Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thy house. 12 And he arose, and straightway took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

(ASV) John 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. 2 The same was IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. ... 9 There was the true light, which lighteth every man, coming into the world. 10 HE WAS IN THE WORLD, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE THROUGH HIM, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. 12 But AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM GAVE HE THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD, TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And THE WORD BECAME FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH. 15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for HE WAS BEFORE ME. 16 For of his fulness we all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; GRACE AND TRUTH CAME THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath [explained].

(ASV) John 5:16 And for this cause the Jews persecuted Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, MY FATHER WORKETH EVEN UNTIL NOW, AND I WORK. 18 For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because HE NOT ONLY BRAKE THE SABBATH, BUT ALSO CALLED GOD HIS OWN FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD. 19 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, BUT WHAT HE SEETH THE FATHER DOING: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and greater works than these will he show him, that ye may marvel. 21 For AS THE FATHER RAISETH THE DEAD AND GIVETH THEM LIFE, EVEN SO THE SON ALSO GIVETH LIFE TO WHOM HE WILL. 22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but HE HATH GIVEN ALL JUDGMENT UNTO THE SON; 23 THAT ALL MAY HONOR THE SON, EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

(ASV) John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing: it is my Father that glorifieth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God; 55 and ye have not known him: but I know him; and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be like unto you, a liar: but I know him, and keep his word. 56 YOUR FATHER ABRAHAM REJOICED TO SEE MY DAY; AND HE SAW IT, AND WAS GLAD. 57 The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS BORN, I AM. 59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

(ASV) John 17:5 And NOW, FATHER, GLORIFY THOU ME WITH THINE OWN SELF WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

(ASV) Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! WHO SHALL DELIVER ME OUT OF THE BODY OF THIS DEATH? 25 I THANK GOD THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. ... 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, GOD, SENDING HIS OWN SON IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH AND FOR SIN, CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH: 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(ASV) 1 Corinthians 15:54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: 57 but THANKS BE TO GOD, WHO GIVETH US THE VICTORY THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

(ASV) 2 Corinthians 5:17 Wherefore if any man is in Christ, [he is] a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new. 18 But all things are of GOD, WHO RECONCILED US TO HIMSELF THROUGH CHRIST, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 to wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

(ASV) Philippians 2:5 Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ JESUS: 6 WHO, EXISTING IN THE FORM OF GOD, COUNTED NOT THE BEING ON AN EQUALITY WITH GOD A THING TO BE GRASPED, 7 BUT EMPTIED HIMSELF, TAKING THE FORM OF A SERVANT, BEING MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN; 8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient [even] unto death, yea, the death of the cross. 9 WHEREFORE ALSO GOD HIGHLY EXALTED HIM, AND GAVE UNTO HIM THE NAME WHICH IS ABOVE EVERY NAME; 10 THAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, of [things] in heaven and [things] on earth and [things] under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(ASV) 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For GOD APPOINTED US NOT INTO WRATH, BUT UNTO THE OBTAINING OF SALVATION THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

(ASV) Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to guard you from stumbling, and to set you before the presence of his glory without blemish in exceeding joy, 25 TO THE ONLY GOD OUR SAVIOUR, THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD, [be] glory, majesty, dominion and power, before all time, and now, and for evermore. Amen.


Jim:

You appear to be suggesting in your analysis of Matthew 19:4-6 that if Jesus or anyone else says that God does something, then this means that the Father alone does it without any help from Jesus. But as you can see from the passages quoted above, neither the Father nor the Son does anything by Himself. They work as a team.

In Matthew 19:23-26, the Apostles asked, If the rich can’t enter the kingdom of God, then who can be saved? Jesus answered that with God all things are possible. According to your analysis of Matthew 19:4-6, in which you conclude that if Jesus says that God does something, then this means that Jesus does not play a role in it, Jesus saying that with God salvation is possible means that the Father alone makes salvation possible without any help from Jesus. However, we know from the rest of the New Testament this is not so.

The Father does save people, but He does it through Jesus Christ. If Jesus doesn’t do His part, then the Father doesn’t save anyone.

In John 1:1-10, John is saying the same thing about the creation. He is saying that the Father did not create things all by Himself. He had help. Just as the Father and the Son work as a team to save people, likewise the Father and the Word (the Son) worked as a team to create everything that is.

So the Father and the Son (the Word) worked together as a team to create everything in the beginning, but the creation then fell victim to sin, so now the Father and the Son (the Word become flesh, the Only Begotten from the Father) are working together as a team to save people from the sin.

Yes, the Father created everything, but He did it through the Word (the Son). Yes, the Father saves people, but He does it through the Son (the Word become flesh, the Only Begotten from the Father).

[Jim1]

Evangelion:

You're reading backwards. You're starting with John 1:14 and applying it retrospectively to the words of John 1:1-3. But Jesus is not even mentioned in the first three verses, and he is definitely not described as "the Word". On the contrary, Jesus is described as "the Word made flesh". In other words, Jesus is something that the Word became; he is not what the word already was.


John and Jesus:

(ASV) John 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. 2 The same was IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM ... 10 HE WAS IN THE WORLD, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE THROUGH HIM, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. 12 But AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM GAVE HE THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD, TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME ... 14 And THE WORD BECAME FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH. ... 17 For the law was given through Moses; GRACE AND TRUTH CAME THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. ...

(ASV) John 17:5 And NOW, FATHER, GLORIFY THOU ME WITH THINE OWN SELF WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.


Jim:

"The Word" in John 1:1 and "the Word" in John 1:14 are the same "Word," the same Person. The Word who was with the Father in the beginning (1:1) and through whom the world came into being (1:3 and 1:10), meaning that the Word was with the Father before the world existed, is the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us as the Only Begotten from the Father (Jesus) (1:14). The Word is the same Person in verses 1:1 and 1:14.

The fact that the Word is in two different forms, one form in verse 1:1 and another form (the Word become flesh / Jesus) in verse 1:14, doesn't change the fact that that He is the same Person, albeit in two different forms.

In becoming flesh, Jesus didn't forget who He was. As He was about to go to the cross, He asked the Father to glorify Him (Jesus) with the same glory that He had with the Father in the beginning prior to becoming flesh and even prior to the world coming into existence (17:5). Same Guy (1:1-3 and 17:5).

The fact that I have a different form now than I did when I was a child doesn't change the fact that I'm still the same Guy. Likewise, the Guy in John 1:1-3 and the Guy in John 17:5 are the same Guy, which is the Guy that was with the Father before the world existed.

Edited by Jim1, 08 July 2009 - 08:46 PM.

[Richie]

I may have missed it since I only just looked at this thread but since when is a word a person?

It seems to me that if you take the word to be a person, i.e. literally Jesus in some pre-existent form, then you completely miss the entire point of the gospel record of John and have no hope at all in understanding what John is saying.

Quite simple, a word is a word - something said or written down. It has no personality. But it became flesh, i.e. the word was lived out in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is John's message.

[Evangelion]

Jim1, on Jul 8 2009, 09:28 PM, said:

Evangelion:

You're reading backwards. You're starting with John 1:14 and applying it retrospectively to the words of John 1:1-3. But Jesus is not even mentioned in the first three verses, and he is definitely not described as "the Word". On the contrary, Jesus is described as "the Word made flesh". In other words, Jesus is something that the Word became; he is not what the word already was.


John and Jesus:

(ASV) John 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. 2 The same was IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM ... 10 HE WAS IN THE WORLD, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE THROUGH HIM, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. 12 But AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM GAVE HE THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD, TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME ... 14 And THE WORD BECAME FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH. ... 17 For the law was given through Moses; GRACE AND TRUTH CAME THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. ...

(ASV) John 17:5 And NOW, FATHER, GLORIFY THOU ME WITH THINE OWN SELF WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.


Jim:

"The Word" in John 1:1 and "the Word" in John 1:14 are the same "Word," the same Person. The Word who was with the Father in the beginning (1:1) and through whom the world came into being (1:3 and 1:10), meaning that the Word was with the Father before the world existed, is the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us as the Only Begotten from the Father (Jesus) (1:14). The Word is the same Person in verses 1:1 and 1:14.

The fact that the Word is in two different forms, one form in verse 1:1 and another form (the Word become flesh / Jesus) in verse 1:14, doesn't change the fact that that He is the same Person, albeit in two different forms.

In becoming flesh, Jesus didn't forget who He was. As He was about to go to the cross, He asked the Father to glorify Him (Jesus) with the same glory that He had with the Father in the beginning prior to becoming flesh and even prior to the world coming into existence (17:5). Same Guy (1:1-3 and 17:5).

The fact that I have a different form now than I did when I was a child doesn't change the fact that I'm still the same Guy. Likewise, the Guy in John 1:1-3 and the Guy in John 17:5 are the same Guy, which is the Guy that was with the Father before the world existed.

I'm not sure what all this was supposed to prove, but it doesn't address my article and it certainly doesn't answer my questions. You keep treating the Word as if it's a person before verse 10, but verse 10 is actually the only point at which it becomes a person. Prior to that, it is never described as a person.

I think you're confusing the "light" with the Word. Remember, the light was in the Word, and that light was Christ. So Christ was obviously not the Word; he was the light within the Word.

You should read my article and address it specifically.

[Jim1]

Richie, on Jul 8 2009, 08:42 PM, said:

I may have missed it since I only just looked at this thread but since when is a word a person?

It seems to me that if you take the word to be a person, i.e. literally Jesus in some pre-existent form, then you completely miss the entire point of the gospel record of John and have no hope at all in understanding what John is saying.

Quite simple, a word is a word - something said or written down. It has no personality. But it became flesh, i.e. the word was lived out in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is John's message.

Why does Jesus say in John 17:5 that He wants the to have the same glory that He originally had with the Father before the world came into being if He was not a person before He became flesh and therefore could not have experienced a sharing of glory with the Father before the world came into being?

Why does Paul say in Philippians 2:5-11 that Jesus was originally in the form of God but emptied Himself to become a man in order to go to the cross as a sacrifice? If He wasn't a Person before He became flesh, what is this demotion in status of which Paul speaks in becoming a man?

Does the fact that Jesus is called the Lion of Judah and the Lamb of God mean that he is not a person but literally a Lion or a Lamb? If not, then why does the fact that He is called the Word mean that He is not a Person but is literally a word.

[Jim1]

Hi Evangelion,

So what are you saying? Are you saying that all things / the world came into being THROUGH (1) THE WORD in 1:1-3 AND THROUGH (2) THE PERSON in 1:10, the person in 1:10 NOT being the Word in 1:1-3? Is that what you're saying?

You say that John stopped talking about the Word in 1:1-3 and now in 1:10 he is talking about a person. But John is still talking about the Word, because in 1:14 he is still saying the phrase "the Word." So obviously he didn't stop talking about the Word between 1:1 and 1:14.

The logical conclusion is that the reason that the Word in 1:1 and 1:14 and the person in 1:10 and light in 1:8-9 and the Only Begotten from the Father in 1:14-18 have all these things in common is that they all refer to the same Person (Jesus).

The only way not to reach this conclusion is to willfully wrestle against the language.

Edited by Jim1, 08 July 2009 - 11:04 PM.

[Richie]

Jim1, on Jul 8 2009, 03:24 PM, said:

Richie, on Jul 8 2009, 08:42 PM, said:

I may have missed it since I only just looked at this thread but since when is a word a person?

It seems to me that if you take the word to be a person, i.e. literally Jesus in some pre-existent form, then you completely miss the entire point of the gospel record of John and have no hope at all in understanding what John is saying.

Quite simple, a word is a word - something said or written down. It has no personality. But it became flesh, i.e. the word was lived out in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is John's message.

Why does Jesus say in John 17:5 that He wants the to have the same glory that He originally had with the Father before the world came into being if He was not a person before He became flesh and therefore could not have experienced a sharing of glory with the Father before the world came into being?

He doesn't need to have literally experienced said glory. Look through the Bible and you'll notice a number of times where things are said "from the foundation of the world". E.g. Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Saints in Christ Jesus will enter the Kingdom of God prepared for them from the foundation of the world. These things do not mean that Jesus was literally slain at the beginning or that the Kingdom literally existed and the saints literally experienced it. What these things do mean is that God had a plan in the beginning and in that plan, for instance, was the glory he determined to share with his son.

Quote

Why does Paul say in Philippians 2:5-11 that Jesus was originally in the form of God but emptied Himself to become a man in order to go to the cross as a sacrifice?

It doesn't say Jesus was originally in the form of God. It says "being in the form of God", i.e. right there and then while he was on earth he was in the form of God. He says as much in John 13 which seems to be what Paul is basing his remarks on.

Quote

If He wasn't a Person before He became flesh, what is this demotion in status of which Paul speaks in becoming a man?

It's talking about his humility despite him being the Son of God - there and then in John 13.

Quote

Does the fact that Jesus is called the Lion of Judah and the Lamb of God mean that he is not a person but literally a Lion or a Lamb? If not, then why does the fact that He is called the Word mean that He is not a Person but is literally a word.

Um, you seem to have this the wrong way round. He is not called the Word in John 1. He is called the Word made flesh. He can't be literally the word since a word is a thing, not a person.

[composer]

(The Early Christian Doctrine of God, R.M. Grant, D.D., Professor of New Testament and Early Christianity, Divinity School, University of Chicago).

“The Word,” said John, “became flesh.” We could put it in another way — “the Mind of God became a person"

William Barclay, Gospel of John, Saint Andrews Press, 1957, Vol. 1, 14. God’s wisdom became flesh in the man Jesus.

&

Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. Paul must be understood within his Jewish contexts. (p. 160) (My Bold)

In no way is Paul, still a good Jew (although a Christian one), assuming that Jesus was somehow a divine god second only to YHWH. Yes, Jesus was exalted and had the title “Lord” conferred on him by God. But Jesus was a man who, in Jewish context, had become the Messiah. He was still distinct and inferior to YHWH. When John wrote his almost-Gnostic Gospel almost a half-century later, his use of the “Word” as a pre-existent form is used within Jewish context as well—the same context he used for words like glory, spirit, divine wisdom, and others. “When Paul and John spoke about Jesus as though he had some kind of pre-existent life, they were not suggesting that he was a second divine ‘person’ in the later Trinitarian sense. They were indicating that Jesus had transcended temporal and individual modes of existence. Because the ‘power’ and ‘wisdom’ that he represented were activities that derived from God, he had in some way expressed ‘what there was from the beginning.’”35

The Jews were absolute monotheists. So was Paul. The Jewish Messiah is not a divine figure. The Messiah would be an ordinary human being that would do privileged “God-things.” The Son of God was a simple way to express the closeness of the Messiah’s actions to the will and power of God. Only the gods of the pagans had “sons” or offspring. “It should be noted that Paul never called Jesus ‘God.’ He called him the ‘Son of God’ in its Jewish sense. He certainly did not believe that Jesus had been the incarnation of God himself; he had simply possessed God’s ‘powers’ and ‘spirit,’ which manifested God’s activity on earth and were not to be identified with the inaccessible divine essence.”36

Also it needs to be kept in mind, although I mentioned it earlier, Jesus never claimed that his divine powers were his alone or special to him. On many occasions he promised his followers that if they had faith they could exercise these same powers. “By faith, of course, he did not mean adopting the correct theology but cultivating an inner attitude of surrender and openness to God.”37 . . . . (p. 161)

35 Armstrong, History of God, p. 89.
36 Armstrong, History of God, p. 83.
37 Armstrong, History of God, p. 82.

. . . . That’s why Jesus could say repeatedly, “Greater things than I do will you do.” (p. 162) - (Composer adds: John 14:12 KJV)

(Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

[Jim1]

Hi Richie,

In those examples you gave, something is done BY God TO something or someone FROM the foundation of the world or FROM BEFORE the foundation of the world, which could be interpreted to mean that God's plan to do this or that to something or someone had been in the mind of God from the foundation of the world or from before the foundation of the world but that the execution of His plan did not occur until much later.

But the words of Jesus in John 17:5 do not follow that pattern. Jesus does not say in 17:5 that God glorified Him (Jesus) FROM BEFORE the foundation of the world, which could be interpreted to mean that God's plan to glorify Jesus was in the mind of God from before the foundation of the world.

Rather, what John quotes Jesus as saying in 17:5 is this (literally, word for word):

John 17:5 and now you-must-glorify Me, You, Father, with Your-own the glory which I-was-having, before the, the world, to be [being (infinitive)], with You.

That is, Now glorify Me, Father, with Your glory, WHICH I HAD (was having) WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS (before the being of the world).

Here, Jesus is saying that He, the Son, had experienced glory with the Father before the world existed, and now He was going to experience it with Him again. Now He (the Son) was going to return to His (the Son's) original state/condition with the Father in heaven.

What Jesus says here in John 17:5 agrees with John 1:1-3, where John states that the Word was with God in the beginning and that all things (including the world) came into being through Him (the Word), meaning that the Word was with God before the world came into being.

Jesus says this to Nicodemus:

(ASV) John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but HE THAT DESCENDED OUT OF HEAVEN, THE SON OF MAN, who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For GOD SENT not THE SON INTO THE WORLD to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The Son of God is unique in being the only human being to have come from heaven. He originally was in heaven with the Father, and then the Father sent Him to earth on a mission to die on a cross for the sins of the world, so that He would give His flesh (His body) as a sacrifice for the life of the world, which is why the Son of God (the Word) had to become flesh (John 1:14).

(ASV) John 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING was the Word, and THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

(ASV) John 1:14 And THE WORD BECAME FLESH, and DWELT AMONG US (and we beheld his glory, glory as of THE ONLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER), full of grace and truth.

(ASV) John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save HE THAT IS FROM GOD, he HATH SEEN THE FATHER. ... 51 I am the living bread WHICH CAME DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN ... the bread which I WILL GIVE is MY FLESH, FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD.

(ASV) Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, This is MY BODY which IS GIVEN FOR YOU: this do in remembrance of me.

(ASV) John 6:62 [What] then if ye should behold THE SON OF MAN ASCENDING WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?

(ASV) John 16:28 I CAME OUT FROM THE FATHER, and am come INTO THE WORLD: again, I LEAVE THE WORLD, AND GO UNTO THE FATHER.

John 17:5 Now glorify Me, Father, with Your glory, WHICH I HAD (was having) WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS (before the being of the world).

All of these passages confirm the same thing, which is that the Son was with the Father in heaven not only before He entered the world and became flesh (took human form) in order to give His flesh (His body) as a sacrifice for the life of the world, but that He was with the Father in heaven even before the world came into being, and that He (the Son / the Word) played a role in all things (including the world) coming into being.

[Jim1]

Richie, on Jul 9 2009, 01:44 AM, said:

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Why does Paul say in Philippians 2:5-11 that Jesus was originally in the form of God but emptied Himself to become a man in order to go to the cross as a sacrifice?

It doesn't say Jesus was originally in the form of God. It says "being in the form of God", i.e. right there and then while he was on earth he was in the form of God. He says as much in John 13 which seems to be what Paul is basing his remarks on.

(ASV) Philippians 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;

This does NOT say that Jesus was in the form of God while being in the form of man.

Paul says (literally, word for word), "2:6 who, in form of-God existing [beginning by or under, existing], not grasp he-considered the to-be [being] equal to God, 7 but he-emptied himself, form of-servant having-taken, in likeness of-men having become."

That is, "who, existing [beginning by or under] in the form of God, did not consider being equal to God a grasp, but He emptied Himself, having taken the form of a servant, having become in the likeness of men."

Here, Paul says that the process of the Son of God empying (or lowering) Himself consisted of Him originally starting out in the form of God and subsequently ending up in the likeness of men.

This agrees with what Paul says in Romans 8:3, where he states (ASV), "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, GOD, SENDING HIS OWN SON IN THE LIKENSS OF SINFUL FLESH and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh ...."

Thus, according to Paul, being born a human being was a demotion (a lowering) in form for the Son of God.

Edited by Jim1, 11 July 2009 - 04:44 PM.

[Jim1]

Richie, on Jul 9 2009, 01:44 AM, said:

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Does the fact that Jesus is called the Lion of Judah and the Lamb of God mean that he is not a person but literally a Lion or a Lamb? If not, then why does the fact that He is called the Word mean that He is not a Person but is literally a word.

Um, you seem to have this the wrong way round. He is not called the Word in John 1. He is called the Word made flesh. He can't be literally the word since a word is a thing, not a person.

Not so. John does not call anyone "the Word become flesh." John refers to something or someone as "the Word," and he states that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," and that "we saw His glory, the glory of the Only Begotten from the Father."

The language in John 1:1-14 requires "the Word" and "the light" and "the Only Begotten from the Father" to be the same Person (Jesus).

Edited by Jim1, 09 July 2009 - 10:46 AM.

[Jeremy]

Sorry for delay in replying.

Jim1, on Jul 8 2009, 08:58 PM, said:

You appear to be suggesting in your analysis of Matthew 19:4-6 that if Jesus or anyone else says that God does something, then this means that the Father alone does it without any help from Jesus. But as you can see from the passages quoted above, neither the Father nor the Son does anything by Himself. They work as a team.

Sure, of course. But that's no help in making "he" (v 4) + "God" (v 6) = "me". What you don't need to do in going to the other extreme is suggesting that God does nothing without involving Jesus. That would be equally nonsensical.

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In Matthew 19:23-26, the Apostles asked, If the rich can’t enter the kingdom of God, then who can be saved? Jesus answered that with God all things are possible. According to your analysis of Matthew 19:4-6, in which you conclude that if Jesus says that God does something, then this means that Jesus does not play a role in it, Jesus saying that with God salvation is possible means that the Father alone makes salvation possible without any help from Jesus. However, we know from the rest of the New Testament this is not so.

The Father does save people, but He does it through Jesus Christ. If Jesus doesn’t do His part, then the Father doesn’t save anyone.

I agree with your illustration with reagrd to salvation. But it's still of no use in proving that Jesus is talking about himself in Matt. 19 (when he plainly isn't). I said earlier that the onus is on you to prove that Jesus means the opposite of the straightforward reading of the text, and it still is.

Quote

In John 1:1-10, John is saying the same thing about the creation. He is saying that the Father did not create things all by Himself. He had help. Just as the Father and the Son work as a team to save people, likewise the Father and the Word (the Son) worked as a team to create everything that is.

So the Father and the Son (the Word) worked together as a team to create everything in the beginning, but the creation then fell victim to sin, so now the Father and the Son (the Word become flesh, the Only Begotten from the Father) are working together as a team to save people from the sin.

Yes, the Father created everything, but He did it through the Word (the Son). Yes, the Father saves people, but He does it through the Son (the Word become flesh, the Only Begotten from the Father).

I need to refer you again to the earlier posts in this thread which make the point that Scripture talks about two creations, a natural one in the early chapters of Genesis and a spiritual one in Christ. Do you follow that point (question asked sincerely, not in any way to demean)?

[Evangelion]

I've been frantically busy at work this week (tomorrow is my last day, and I've been training my replacement) and I'll be on holiday next week, but I'll try to get back to the thread on the weekend.