10 replies to this topic

[Lectron]

John sees 5 angels then hears 12 counts of 12000 then sees an unnumerable multitude. Since the number exceeds the highest number in the Apocalypse which is 200,002,000 or more (Rev 9:16), I put it that these are not two crowds at all! They are two perspectives on the saved.


Here is an an OT example of perspective:



Therefore sent [the King of Syria] thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about. And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do? And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the Lord, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha. And Elisha said unto them, This is not the way, neither is this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom ye seek. But he led them to Samaria. And it came to pass, when they were come into Samaria, that Elisha said, Lord, open the eyes of these men, that they may see. And the Lord opened their eyes, and they saw; and, behold, they were in the midst of Samaria. And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them? 2 Kings 6:14-21

Elisha's understudy could not "see" the overwhelming chariots of the Lord he needed his eyes opened. In a different sense, the Kings forces also needed their eyes opened.

Could then this relatively small number 144000 be mans attempt to limit the number of true servants against the true number which is unquantifiable?

[Jeremy]

I think the answer to this apparent dilemma in Rev. 7 is that John sees two distinct but connected groups of people.

* Different numbers: 144,000 (v 4), and an innumerable multitude (v 9)
* Different perception by John: number heard (v 4), and seen (v 9)
* Different "nationality": Israelite (v 4), and from all nations (v 9)
* Different spiritual credentials: sealed in the forehead (v 3), and wearing white garments (v 9)
* Different locations: on earth (v 1-3; ch 9 v 4), and in the heavenly temple (v 9-10)
* Different stage in probation: still affected by God's judgements (v 3; ch 9 v 4), and redeemed/beyond all suffering (v 14-17)
* Different points when seen by John: not till later (ch 14 v 1), of here (ch 7)

John goes out of his way to show us seven differences between the two groups.

But each group ultimately consists of redeemed saints, because although we're introduced to the 144,000 while they're still subject to trial and temptation, eventually they make it into the presence of the Lamb.

Rev. is showing us that these are the redeemed, but from two different time periods. The 144,000 don't receive their reward till later, when they join the company of the redeemed which gradually accumulates through the book. Rev. is showing us that God is at work on behalf of His people through all ages of history, and He directs the affairs of the world for our sake just as He has does for our fellow believers in earlier times. The exhortation from this is wonderful.

[Lectron]

Jeremy, on Jun 7 2009, 02:38 PM, said:

I think the answer to this apparent dilemma in Rev. 7 is that John sees two distinct but connected groups of people.

* Different numbers: 144,000 (v 4), and an innumerable multitude (v 9)
* Different perception by John: number heard (v 4), and seen (v 9)
* Different "nationality": Israelite (v 4), and from all nations (v 9)
* Different spiritual credentials: sealed in the forehead (v 3), and wearing white garments (v 9)
* Different locations: on earth (v 1-3; ch 9 v 4), and in the heavenly temple (v 9-10)
* Different stage in probation: still affected by God's judgements (v 3; ch 9 v 4), and redeemed/beyond all suffering (v 14-17)
* Different points when seen by John: not till later (ch 14 v 1), of here (ch 7)

John goes out of his way to show us seven differences between the two groups.

But each group ultimately consists of redeemed saints, because although we're introduced to the 144,000 while they're still subject to trial and temptation, eventually they make it into the presence of the Lamb.

Rev. is showing us that these are the redeemed, but from two different time periods. The 144,000 don't receive their reward till later, when they join the company of the redeemed which gradually accumulates through the book. Rev. is showing us that God is at work on behalf of His people through all ages of history, and He directs the affairs of the world for our sake just as He has does for our fellow believers in earlier times. The exhortation from this is wonderful.

Very perceptive post Jeremy - thanks

I would very much like to believe in these 7 differentials, and I have no problem understanding your 1 - 6. However, not quite sure what you mean by

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* Different points when seen by John: not till later (ch 14 v 1), of here (ch 7)

What do you mean by "different points" points of time, or space or what?
Mt Zion is a location already covered by differential 5.

[Jeremy]

Lectron, on Jun 7 2009, 03:04 PM, said:

Very perceptive post Jeremy - thanks

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I would very much like to believe in these 7 differentials, and I have no problem understanding your 1 - 6. However, not quite sure what you mean by

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* Different points when seen by John: not till later (ch 14 v 1), of here (ch 7)

What do you mean by "different points" points of time, or space or what?
Mt Zion is a location already covered by differential 5.

Sorry; not helped by my typo. I meant at a different point in the prophecy. There's nothing in ch 7 to show that John sees the 144,000 at all - as you said in the first post, John tells us that "I heard the number of those who were sealed" (v 4). But when we get to ch 14, he says that "I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand". Only after they've finished their probation during the trumpet period is John permitted to see them.

I'm not sure why, as John certainly sees some of God's other people during their trials. Perhaps there's another exhortation here, in that these are people known only to God. There's nothing out of the ordinary about them as far as the rest of the world is concerned; what's important about them is what they're like spirituality - and that's something known only to God.

[Lectron]

Jeremy, on Jun 7 2009, 04:03 PM, said:

Lectron, on Jun 7 2009, 03:04 PM, said:

Very perceptive post Jeremy - thanks

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I would very much like to believe in these 7 differentials, and I have no problem understanding your 1 - 6. However, not quite sure what you mean by

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* Different points when seen by John: not till later (ch 14 v 1), of here (ch 7)

What do you mean by "different points" points of time, or space or what?
Mt Zion is a location already covered by differential 5.

Sorry; not helped by my typo. I meant at a different point in the prophecy. There's nothing in ch 7 to show that John sees the 144,000 at all - as you said in the first post, John tells us that "I heard the number of those who were sealed" (v 4). But when we get to ch 14, he says that "I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand". Only after they've finished their probation during the trumpet period is John permitted to see them.

I'm not sure why, as John certainly sees some of God's other people during their trials. Perhaps there's another exhortation here, in that these are people known only to God. There's nothing out of the ordinary about them as far as the rest of the world is concerned; what's important about them is what they're like spirituality - and that's something known only to God.

Well of course this is the uncertainty factor about this description - think the way you have put it could be right, but is anyway implied.
My way of looking at it is equally implied, but different.

1/ John hears the 12 sets of counts, and then there is a pause. Is there going to be a 13th? after all Dan has not been counted. The whole procedure is too idealised, even the selection of 1000 by Moses to fight Midian is idealised because some tribes were more numerous than others but exactly 1000 were required.
2/ Yet if John beheld the 144,000 they were in fact a multitude without number yet they seem to carry the credentials of the 144,000 in Ch 14

My conclusion is that 144000 is man's sectarian limitation and the great multitude, the overwhelming salvation through Grace.

Your summary 'known only to God' would be a fitting yardstick if this scene was a comparison of man's attempt to restrict the redeemed against the overwhelming Salvation of God which fulfills the Abrahamic promise utterly.

Edited by Lectron, 08 June 2009 - 10:15 PM.

[Jeremy]

Sorry for delay in replying.

Lectron, on Jun 8 2009, 08:39 PM, said:

Well of course this is the uncertainty factor about this description - think the way you have put it could be right, but is anyway implied.
My way of looking at it is equally implied, but different.

1/ John hears the 12 sets of counts, and then there is a pause. Is there going to be a 13th? after all Dan has not been counted. The whole procedure is too idealised, even the selection of 1000 by Moses to fight Midian is idealised because some tribes were more numerous than others but exactly 1000 were required.

Isn't a simpler conclusion that the count of 12 x 12 x 1,000 is meant to be idealised?

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2/ Yet if John beheld the 144,000 they were in fact a multitude without number yet they seem to carry the credentials of the 144,000 in Ch 14

The two 144,000s are the same group. We're told in ch 7 that they're sealed, and in ch 14 we find out what they were sealed with - the name of God.

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My conclusion is that 144000 is man's sectarian limitation and the great multitude, the overwhelming salvation through Grace.

The reason why I think this can't be true is that we're clearly given God's opinion of the 144,000, not man's.

v 2: it's an angel who holds back the four trumpet-judgements of God until the 144,000 are sealed
v 3: they're called God's servants
ch 14 v 1: they're standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb, sealed with God's name in the forehead
ch 14 v 3: they're singing the song of the redeemed
ch 14 v 4: they're undefiled, chaste, followers of the Lamb, and redeemed from other men
ch 14 v 5: they're blameless

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Your summary 'known only to God' would be a fitting yardstick if this scene was a comparison of man's attempt to restrict the redeemed against the overwhelming Salvation of God which fulfills the Abrahamic promise utterly.

But they join the innumerable multitude - they become part of it.

[Lectron]

Jeremy, on Jun 10 2009, 11:04 AM, said:

Lectron, on Jun 8 2009, 08:39 PM, said:

Well of course this is the uncertainty factor about this description - think the way you have put it could be right, but is anyway implied.
My way of looking at it is equally implied, but different.

1/ John hears the 12 sets of counts, and then there is a pause. Is there going to be a 13th? after all Dan has not been counted. The whole procedure is too idealised, even the selection of 1000 by Moses to fight Midian is idealised because some tribes were more numerous than others but exactly 1000 were required.

Isn't a simpler conclusion that the count of 12 x 12 x 1,000 is meant to be idealised?

Yes it is simpler and meant to be simpler, and the spirit's portrayal of it is a portrayal of how God looks at man's simplification and exclusivity, not man's view of man's simplification and exclusivity.

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2/ Yet if John beheld the 144,000 they were in fact a multitude without number yet they seem to carry the credentials of the 144,000 in Ch 14

The two 144,000s are the same group. We're told in ch 7 that they're sealed, and in ch 14 we find out what they were sealed with - the name of God.

I'm glad we agree on this

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My conclusion is that 144000 is man's sectarian limitation and the great multitude, the overwhelming salvation through Grace.

The reason why I think this can't be true is that we're clearly given God's opinion of the 144,000, not man's.

v 2: it's an angel who holds back the four trumpet-judgements of God until the 144,000 are sealed
v 3: they're called God's servants
ch 14 v 1: they're standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb, sealed with God's name in the forehead
ch 14 v 3: they're singing the song of the redeemed
ch 14 v 4: they're undefiled, chaste, followers of the Lamb, and redeemed from other men
ch 14 v 5: they're blameless

The issue here is not on the worthiness of the group, they are both about those receiving salvation - therefore thay are worthy or are made worthy; rather, it is the portrayal of a (relatively) small group (man's view) and a group that defies man's ability to number (God's view)

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Your summary 'known only to God' would be a fitting yardstick if this scene was a comparison of man's attempt to restrict the redeemed against the overwhelming Salvation of God which fulfills the Abrahamic promise utterly.

But they join the innumerable multitude - they become part of it.

Do they?

There is no vision of these two groups merging - in reality, there never were 2 groups.
Is not the spirit saying "there is only one group, you need to see it God's way" ??
Reading and understanding (Matt24:15) is even more important here than in Daniel.

[Lectron]

Some further thoughts on: The One Crowd

Before	After
heared	seen
counted	uncountable
From Israel	From all nations
tribal with discrimination	multicultural
on earth	In the heavenly temple
preparing for warfare and tribulation	Tribulation past, and showing tokens of victory
Incomplete, not all tribes announced	Complete

If the scroll handed to the Lamb in ch 5 is the Lamb's book of life, then we begin to see this interlude as a volte face of the previous unsealing commenced in ch 6. The sealing process is divine authentication. Unsealing the book of life reveals those authenticated by God.

[Jeremy]

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The issue here is not on the worthiness of the group, they are both about those receiving salvation - therefore thay are worthy or are made worthy; rather, it is the portrayal of a (relatively) small group (man's view) and a group that defies man's ability to number (God's view)

I still don't any evidence produced for saying that any of this is from man's viewpoint. It's the angels who are making these comments, not men.

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Is not the spirit saying "there is only one group, you need to see it God's way" ??

Where's the evidence for that?

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If the scroll handed to the Lamb in ch 5 is the Lamb's book of life, then we begin to see this interlude as a volte face of the previous unsealing commenced in ch 6. The sealing process is divine authentication. Unsealing the book of life reveals those authenticated by God.

How can the scroll in ch 5 be the book of life if unsealing it simply causes events to happen on earth?

Anyway, you're confusing the details of the vision - there's one sealed book, and 144,000 sealed people. They are obviously not the same entity.

[Lectron]

To take your last part first:

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If the scroll handed to the Lamb in ch 5 is the Lamb's book of life, then we begin to see this interlude as a volte face of the previous unsealing commenced in ch 6. The sealing process is divine authentication. Unsealing the book of life reveals those authenticated by God.

How can the scroll in ch 5 be the book of life if unsealing it simply causes events to happen on earth?

Anyway, you're confusing the details of the vision - there's one sealed book, and 144,000 sealed people. They are obviously not the same entity.

No, I am not saying these are the same entity, rather, I am saying that they are in a sense, two sides of a coin as it were,[indent]
A/ The book of life cannot be opened without:[indent]1/ The authority to break the seals (The Lamb has that authority), and
2/ All 7 seals must be broken before any information can be obtained as to who is entered upon the divine register
[/indent]
B/ Enigmatically, the servants of God, those destined to be with the Lamb, have to be divinely marked out.
[/indent]
So, to answer your point, the vision is showing that the names on that register, tho' determined before the foundation of the earth, is dependent on events yet to transpire. A cycle of events would pass through the church until the number was made up with the Gospel showing up in 4 phases showing the success and failiure of the New Israel to be comparable with the old in that it had times of spiritual growth followed by infighting decay and death and those who nobly served God even to death would have to wait for that number to fulfill from Abel slain for his faith and Cain sealed in the forehead through innumerable faithfuls throughout the Christian age.
Any attempt to make these seal events 'fit' an historical period misses the point that it is all about salvation not politics.

Edited by Lectron, 19 June 2009 - 06:01 AM.

[Lectron]

Jeremy, on Jun 17 2009, 11:21 PM, said:

I still don't any evidence produced for saying that any of this is from man's viewpoint.

It's an implied deduction, I'll try and come back to this later

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It's the angels who are making these comments, not men.

As ministering spirits, they often put forward God's view (of how He sees mankind).

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Is not the spirit saying "there is only one group, you need to see it God's way" ??

Where's the evidence for that?

I'm actually saying there's no concrete evidence for the opposite view (IMO)