How could the Book of Mormon have been Written
The Book of Mormon was supposed to have been written on gold plates, by different prophets and one name Mormon. After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni who add a few words of his own and hidden the plates in the hill Cumorah. Then the same Moroni, supposedly a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to Joseph Smith in 1823 and instructed him to translate the record into the English language. Joseph Smith claims that he was not allow to start is work until 1827. Joseph Smith was born in the year 1805 and The Book of Mormon was first published in 1830
According to Joseph Smith’s account of the translation work he did. He copied the characters (i.e. Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic) off the plates.
However the people of Israel used the Hebrew language to write down God’s word’s at the time of Zedekiah king of Judah so why would they use Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic in the Book of Mormon and nearly all of the Holy Bible is written in the Hebrew language.
Joseph Smith states that he gave the characters which he had drawn off the plates to a man called Martin Harris whom took them to the city of New York. Martin Harris than presented the characters and the translation of them to Professor Charles Anthon. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so then any he had seen before from Egyptian. He then showed him those that were not yet translated, and Professor Anthon said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic and he said they were true characters. Professor Anthon than gave him a certificate, certifying that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct. However Professor Anthon realised that the translation was a fake and he ask to see the certificate and accordingly Martin Harris gave it to him and took it and tore it to pieces saying you can’t con me I can tell that you have copied them from other books. Joseph Smith tried to conceal this fact from ever one and the Latter Day Saints try to do this to day.
The Book of Mormon was created in the mind of Joseph Smith and is not a historical account of former inhabitants of the American continent. This is an unbalanced story.
So how could Joseph Smith have known the language of the Egyptian, he must have had a copy of the book “Precis du systeme hieroglyph des Anciens Egyptiens” by Jean Francois Champollion who in 1808 began to work on the so-called Rosetta Stone, the trilingual inscription in hieroglyphs, demotic, and Greek characters, found in 1799 by the Napoleonic troops near the town of Rosetta in the Nile delta.
Born in 1790, Champollion soon devoted himself to linguistic and Oriental studies and his deep knowledge of numerous idioms, above all Coptic, was of great help to him in the study and unravelling of the secrets of hieroglyphic writing.
Appointed as a University of Grenoble professor at just nineteen years of age, Champollion devoted 14 years to the study of ancient Egyptian writing, basing his work on three remarkable intuitions: that Coptic constituted the ultimate development of Egyptian, that the hieroglyphs had a combined ideographic and phonetic meaning, and lastly, that the hieroglyphs enclosed within the cartouches transcribed phonetically the names of the pharaohs.
Supposing that each hieroglyphic sign corresponded to a letter of the alphabet and knowing from the Greek text of the Rosetta Stone that the king it referred to was Ptolemy, he managed to identify the symbols that formed the name PTOLMYS.
Later in 1821, by analysing the bilingual text (Greek and hieroglyphs) on an obelisk discovered by Belzoni in the island of Philae and taken to England, he managed to decipher the name of Cleopatra and thus identify the alphabetical equivalent of no less than 12 symbols. Extending this methodology to other cartouches, Champollion discovered the equivalents of many hieroglyphs. In 1822 he presented his discovery to the academic world in the celebrated Lettre a M. Dacier, the secretary of the Academie des Inscriptions et Belles Lettres. This was followed in 1824 by a book titled, Precis du systeme hieroglyph des Anciens Egyptiens, in which he explained the fundamental concepts of hieroglyphic writing.
Now Joseph Smith must have copied the Egyptian alphabet and grammar from the book “Precis du systeme hieroglyph des Anciens Egyptiens” by Jean Francois Champollion and made is own papyri’s so that it would look like he had copied them from gold plates and than translated them into the English language. Joseph Smith had help with this work by a man named Oliver Cowdery who was a school teacher, Oliver Cowdery would have had access to libraries around the State of New York were he could have got the books for the translation work so that they could have had the characters of the Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic now with the alphabet and grammar they could make up the papyri’s for the Book of Mormon.
After some time Martin Harris went to see Dr. Mitchell who sanctioned both the characters and the translation. Than these three men got the book published in 1830 at around the same time they went on to fabricate a new church call the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints which is not a really a church of God. Joseph Smith then went on to writ more books “Doctrine and Covenants” which is a sort of fictional-revelation/history of the church and the Pearl of Great Price which is another piece of fiction originating in the mind of Joseph Smith about Moses and Abraham which are hard to understand in the book of Moses talks about Enoch who is the son of Cain not the son of Jared but in this book of Moses Joseph Smith thinks that they are the same person. (Compare Geneses 4:17; 5:18-24) And the book of Abraham is about astrology how the sun and moon rule time and seasons.
Thus the book of Mormon was written by man and not by Yahweh
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8 replies to this topic
#2
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Omicron
Posted 30 May 2009 - 12:53 PM
I would be interested in a response to these questions from any member of the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" (commonly known as Mormons).
1 Why does the Book of Mormon say Jesus would be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10) when the Bible says he was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1)?
2 Why does the Book or Mormon copy sections from the King James Version of the Bible including translation errors? For example, 2 Nephi 13:17-26 is identical with Isaiah 3:17-26. Yet, recent Hebrew scholarship has shown that the KJV is defective in these verses.
3 How can the Book of Mormon be dated before AD 421, yet contain extensive quotations from the King James Version of the Bible (including translation errors) which was not produced until AD 1611?
4 How is it that modern Egyptologists have discovered copies of the Book of Abraham (in 1966) and have identified it as coming from ancient pagan funerary texts like the Book of the Dead? Furthermore, why does not one of Joseph Smith's "translations" comes even close to being right?
5 How do you explain the claims of Solomon Spaulding, who says he wrote a fictional novel called Manuscript Lost about the early history of America, and that the novel was stolen, adapted, and later published as the Book of Mormon? Furthermore, seven witnesses produced signed statements claiming they had seen drafts of Spaulding's novel before the Book of Mormon was first published.
6 Why are there no non-Mormon archaeologists who accept the migration from Israel to America, or the large-scale wars such as that alleged near Hill Cumorah in AD 385 (Mormon 6:9-15)?
7 Why is there so much archaeological evidence for the Bible, yet none for historical accounts in the Book of Mormon?
8 How could Joseph Smith be a true prophet when he prophesied that the United States government would be overthrown in the 1800s? (History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Deseret Book Company: Salt Lake City, Utah, 1973. 5:394.)
9 How could Brigham Young be a true prophet when he said that the moon and the sun were both inhabited? (Journal of Discourses, 24 July 1870.)
10 Why were Mormon males of African descent not allowed in the priesthood up until 1978?
1 Why does the Book of Mormon say Jesus would be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10) when the Bible says he was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1)?
2 Why does the Book or Mormon copy sections from the King James Version of the Bible including translation errors? For example, 2 Nephi 13:17-26 is identical with Isaiah 3:17-26. Yet, recent Hebrew scholarship has shown that the KJV is defective in these verses.
3 How can the Book of Mormon be dated before AD 421, yet contain extensive quotations from the King James Version of the Bible (including translation errors) which was not produced until AD 1611?
4 How is it that modern Egyptologists have discovered copies of the Book of Abraham (in 1966) and have identified it as coming from ancient pagan funerary texts like the Book of the Dead? Furthermore, why does not one of Joseph Smith's "translations" comes even close to being right?
5 How do you explain the claims of Solomon Spaulding, who says he wrote a fictional novel called Manuscript Lost about the early history of America, and that the novel was stolen, adapted, and later published as the Book of Mormon? Furthermore, seven witnesses produced signed statements claiming they had seen drafts of Spaulding's novel before the Book of Mormon was first published.
6 Why are there no non-Mormon archaeologists who accept the migration from Israel to America, or the large-scale wars such as that alleged near Hill Cumorah in AD 385 (Mormon 6:9-15)?
7 Why is there so much archaeological evidence for the Bible, yet none for historical accounts in the Book of Mormon?
8 How could Joseph Smith be a true prophet when he prophesied that the United States government would be overthrown in the 1800s? (History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Deseret Book Company: Salt Lake City, Utah, 1973. 5:394.)
9 How could Brigham Young be a true prophet when he said that the moon and the sun were both inhabited? (Journal of Discourses, 24 July 1870.)
10 Why were Mormon males of African descent not allowed in the priesthood up until 1978?
Edited by Simon-Ben-Zion, 30 May 2009 - 10:15 PM.
#3
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Tau
Posted 30 May 2009 - 05:15 PM
I have a reply from a friend of mine who is a Mormon (though from what he says at the end it would appear he's not attending church at the moment).
Amy's friend said:
I can't answer all the questions on that post but I'll try to give the 'Mormon response' to as many as possible.
1. Perhaps the book of mormon was referring to the general region where Jesus would be born. Although this is pretty ambiguous, you'd have to ask yourself why Joseph Smith would make such a simple error (if presuming this is evidence that it is just 'made up') when he was clearly very familiar with the bible.
2. The book of mormon 'copies' parts from the bible because the ancient people, by whom the book is supposedly written, possessed most of the old testament records we have today. As for the 'errors', what errors exactly? Unless the person properly cites what errors exactly he is referring to, how valid this study by Hebrew scholars is, etc, it is hard to make any kind of defence or treat the claim too seriously. It should also be noted that many of the parts in the book of mormon 'copied' from the bible are not exact word-for-word copies of the corresponding chapter in the bible. Mormons believe the reason for this is precisely because the KJV of the bible contains errors, and the book of mormon version is the 'correct' original.
3. See previous answer. Also, the book of mormon sections of the bible may resemble the KJV more closely than any other versions simply because the KJV could happen to be the most accurate translation.
4. Don't know anything about this, and the claims behind the question aren't very specific, with no citations or clear examples provided.
5. I know nothing about this. Again, the claim needs to be properly researched before it can be taken as a fact.
6. Because to my knowledge there is no hard evidence to historically prove anything in the book of mormon. But on the other hand, if the events of the book of mormon were true, it would be very difficult to find any evidence of the migration, as it was simply a tiny group of people - 2 families - who made the migration. It wasn't like the mass exodus of a civilization, i.e. something very historically apparent and obvious.
7. Because the bible was based in very specific places, such that archaeologists know exactly where to dig to find the evidence. In the book of mormon however, it is extremely unclear whereabouts on the american continent the people dwelled, and because they had their own names for places, it is impossible to identify the book of mormon place names with real, modern place names in america today. In short, archaeologists wouldn't have a clue where to dig to confirm book of mormon events, besides around the hill cumorah. But for all we know, the wars at the end of the book of mormon could have taken place miles from this hill (after all Moroni was supposedly in hiding when he buried them), so was unlikely to be right near the battle sites when he buried the book in cumorah.
8. Didn't know about that claim, but Mormons would draw a distinction between when a prophet actually prophesies, or just merely speculates.
9. I don't remember Brigham Young ever saying the sun was inhabited, but the alleged comment about the moon would again be seen by Mormons as mere speculation on his part, taken out of context and viewed as a prophesy. This claim, as well as Joseph Smith's 'prophesy' from the previous question, is not canonical (i.e. written in the doctrine of covenants, a book considered sacred scripture) and is therefore not seen as a serious claim or serious prophesy.
10. Mormons believe black people's ancestors were marked by a curse from God, and that the Negroes weren't ready to receive the priesthood until the revelation that occurred in 1978. Although this does sound very racist, I must say that all the Mormons I know are not one bit racist or discriminatory.
There we go, hope I've helped. I don't mean to sound hypocritical because I'm not even going to church at the moment, but i think i know the church's position on most of these things.
1. Perhaps the book of mormon was referring to the general region where Jesus would be born. Although this is pretty ambiguous, you'd have to ask yourself why Joseph Smith would make such a simple error (if presuming this is evidence that it is just 'made up') when he was clearly very familiar with the bible.
2. The book of mormon 'copies' parts from the bible because the ancient people, by whom the book is supposedly written, possessed most of the old testament records we have today. As for the 'errors', what errors exactly? Unless the person properly cites what errors exactly he is referring to, how valid this study by Hebrew scholars is, etc, it is hard to make any kind of defence or treat the claim too seriously. It should also be noted that many of the parts in the book of mormon 'copied' from the bible are not exact word-for-word copies of the corresponding chapter in the bible. Mormons believe the reason for this is precisely because the KJV of the bible contains errors, and the book of mormon version is the 'correct' original.
3. See previous answer. Also, the book of mormon sections of the bible may resemble the KJV more closely than any other versions simply because the KJV could happen to be the most accurate translation.
4. Don't know anything about this, and the claims behind the question aren't very specific, with no citations or clear examples provided.
5. I know nothing about this. Again, the claim needs to be properly researched before it can be taken as a fact.
6. Because to my knowledge there is no hard evidence to historically prove anything in the book of mormon. But on the other hand, if the events of the book of mormon were true, it would be very difficult to find any evidence of the migration, as it was simply a tiny group of people - 2 families - who made the migration. It wasn't like the mass exodus of a civilization, i.e. something very historically apparent and obvious.
7. Because the bible was based in very specific places, such that archaeologists know exactly where to dig to find the evidence. In the book of mormon however, it is extremely unclear whereabouts on the american continent the people dwelled, and because they had their own names for places, it is impossible to identify the book of mormon place names with real, modern place names in america today. In short, archaeologists wouldn't have a clue where to dig to confirm book of mormon events, besides around the hill cumorah. But for all we know, the wars at the end of the book of mormon could have taken place miles from this hill (after all Moroni was supposedly in hiding when he buried them), so was unlikely to be right near the battle sites when he buried the book in cumorah.
8. Didn't know about that claim, but Mormons would draw a distinction between when a prophet actually prophesies, or just merely speculates.
9. I don't remember Brigham Young ever saying the sun was inhabited, but the alleged comment about the moon would again be seen by Mormons as mere speculation on his part, taken out of context and viewed as a prophesy. This claim, as well as Joseph Smith's 'prophesy' from the previous question, is not canonical (i.e. written in the doctrine of covenants, a book considered sacred scripture) and is therefore not seen as a serious claim or serious prophesy.
10. Mormons believe black people's ancestors were marked by a curse from God, and that the Negroes weren't ready to receive the priesthood until the revelation that occurred in 1978. Although this does sound very racist, I must say that all the Mormons I know are not one bit racist or discriminatory.
There we go, hope I've helped. I don't mean to sound hypocritical because I'm not even going to church at the moment, but i think i know the church's position on most of these things.
Edited by Amy Parkin, 30 May 2009 - 05:16 PM.
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
and He will make straight your paths."
--Proverbs 3:5-6
and do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
and He will make straight your paths."
--Proverbs 3:5-6
#4
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Omicron
Posted 30 May 2009 - 10:24 PM
The basic question of authority must first be settled with Mormons as with Roman Catholics. While it is claimed by Mormons that the Bible is the word of God, the claim has little practical value since the real stress is placed on the later "revelations". A Mormon course of study for the Melchizedek priesthood gives the following instruction:
"In general, it is well not to use a single passage of scripture in proof of a point, unless it is confirmed by modern revelation. If a single quotation is confirmed by modern revelation, we may be sure of its interpretation . . . " 1
It is not usually advisable to condemn Mormon books outright on the basis of Rev. 22:18, "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book". Mormons interpret this verse as only applying to the Revelation. Their stock rejoinder is to quote Deut. 4:2, "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it . . . " They then ask whether or not the later writings of Joshua, Judges, the Prophets and the New Testament are accepted as inspired revelations.
A more fruitful approach utilizes the small common ground that a Christadelphian shares with a Mormon - the belief that the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible can then be used to test the claims of the Book of Mormon, the Doctrines and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. This approach has the advantage of discussing the basic issues of Gospel doctrines rather than disputing for example, whether or not the Indians of the Americas could have used steel swords.2 The Christadelphian argues on his strong familiar territory, not on historical and anthropological details. Arguments about the latter inevitably degenerate into a battle of "authorities" with each citing what the "scholars" say.
"In general, it is well not to use a single passage of scripture in proof of a point, unless it is confirmed by modern revelation. If a single quotation is confirmed by modern revelation, we may be sure of its interpretation . . . " 1
It is not usually advisable to condemn Mormon books outright on the basis of Rev. 22:18, "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book". Mormons interpret this verse as only applying to the Revelation. Their stock rejoinder is to quote Deut. 4:2, "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it . . . " They then ask whether or not the later writings of Joshua, Judges, the Prophets and the New Testament are accepted as inspired revelations.
A more fruitful approach utilizes the small common ground that a Christadelphian shares with a Mormon - the belief that the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible can then be used to test the claims of the Book of Mormon, the Doctrines and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. This approach has the advantage of discussing the basic issues of Gospel doctrines rather than disputing for example, whether or not the Indians of the Americas could have used steel swords.2 The Christadelphian argues on his strong familiar territory, not on historical and anthropological details. Arguments about the latter inevitably degenerate into a battle of "authorities" with each citing what the "scholars" say.
#5
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- Christadelphian MD
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- 22,344 posts
Omega
#6
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- Christadelphian Armoury
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Order of the Golden Pedant
Posted 08 June 2009 - 07:43 AM
To try and make it sound like the KJV?
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
#7
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- Christadelphian MD
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Sigma
Posted 08 June 2009 - 07:48 PM
The last Mormons I spoke to tried to convince me the book of Mormon was true because "their hearts had burned within them" when they read it.
Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
#8
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- Christadelphian Armoury
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Order of the Golden Pedant
Posted 08 June 2009 - 09:26 PM
The last time I had a warm feeling burning within me, I put it down to the onion soup I'd had for lunch. 
A fairly standard Mormon approach, dear Freckle. When they tried it on me, I said I'd had the same advice from a Catholic about the apostolic authority of the Pope. They took my point, but I don't suppose it made any difference to their preaching.
A fairly standard Mormon approach, dear Freckle. When they tried it on me, I said I'd had the same advice from a Catholic about the apostolic authority of the Pope. They took my point, but I don't suppose it made any difference to their preaching.
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
#9
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- Banned
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Banned
Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:50 AM
The Mormons say they believe the Bible however they add the qualifier - " We Mormons believe the Bible as far as it has been translated correctly?
It is also interesting to note the modesty of Joseph Smith -
J. Smith "claimed" to be superior to Jesus: -
If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them.... I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet (vol. 6, pp.408-9). (Extract from The Changing World of Mormonism)
It is also interesting to note the modesty of Joseph Smith -
J. Smith "claimed" to be superior to Jesus: -
If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them.... I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet (vol. 6, pp.408-9). (Extract from The Changing World of Mormonism)
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