39 replies to this topic

[Gileade]

In Genesis 1:26 we read

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. "

Who are the us here? I have read some explanations that say God is speaking to the angels. But if I am not mistaken I have read somewhere that the Angels were not involved in the creation...

Also in this passage we find the word "alone":

"Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Is 44:24

The angels were present but God alone was the Creator?

"Let us make" = more than one making?

Some light please

[Evangelion]

Footnotes in the NET Bible:

[indent]
The plural form of the verb has been the subject of much discussion through the years, and not surprisingly several suggestions have been put forward. Many Christian theologians interpret it as an early hint of plurality within the Godhead, but this view imposes later trinitarian concepts on the ancient text. Some have suggested the plural verb indicates majesty, but the plural of majesty is not used with verbs. C. Westermann (Genesis, 1:145) argues for a plural of "deliberation" here, but his proposed examples of this use (2Sa_24:14; Isa_6:8) do not actually support his theory.

In 2Sa_24:14 David uses the plural as representative of all Israel, and in Isa_6:8 the LORD speaks on behalf of his heavenly court. In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1Ki_22:19-22; Job_1:6-12; Job_2:1-6; Isa_6:1-8). (The most well-known members of this court are God's messengers, or angels. In Gen_3:5 the serpent may refer to this group as "gods/divine beings." See the note on the word "evil" in Gen_3:5.)

If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate in the creation of humankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job_38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (Gen_1:27). Of course, this view does assume that the members of the heavenly court possess the divine "image" in some way. Since the image is closely associated with rulership, perhaps they share the divine image in that they, together with God and under his royal authority, are the executive authority over the world.
[/indent]

I believe that God was speaking to the angels, and that they - like us - share His image (hence "create man in our image"). However, I also believe that God alone performed the creative work.

[Evangelion]

steveyb3, on Apr 29 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

That is an absolutely delicious question. I have been told the answer before but I have completely forgotten it!

However, I would suggest that the angels were not involved in creating at all for reasons such as the verse you gave. God alone is the Creator otherwise the Angels should be worshipped as well. I would also imagine that the Angels were created in the six days (however long they were), "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them." There are some theories such as John Thomas' about the Angels being from a previous Creation but this is pure speculation.

"Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" They have a specific purpose which appears not to include creating.

Steve, that is an absolutely cracking post, and very well reasoned.

[nsr]

I would understand it as God doing the creative work through the angels.

[Jeremy]

We can't be sure, but I know some people here believe the angels are part of the creation described in Gen. 1 & 2 (I forget why).

[Evangelion]

steveyb3, on Apr 29 2009, 10:16 PM, said:

Thank you Ev

Do you think the angels are eternal? They are immortal now if my reading of Jesus' answer of the seven wives query is correct but did they have a beginning?

I believe they are immortal, but not eternal. I believe they had a beginning, and I believe that they continue to learn through their experience and interaction with this creation.

nsr, on Apr 29 2009, 10:13 PM, said:

I would understand it as God doing the creative work through the angels.

I used to believe this, but there are too many verses in which the Father takes sole credit for creation. Also, Jesus refers to the creator as singular, not plural.

[nsr]

Evangelion, on Apr 29 2009, 10:34 PM, said:

nsr, on Apr 29 2009, 10:13 PM, said:

I would understand it as God doing the creative work through the angels.

I used to believe this, but there are too many verses in which the Father takes sole credit for creation. Also, Jesus refers to the creator as singular, not plural.

I agree. I don't think God doing it through the angels contradicts God doing it alone.

[Richie]

Jeremy, on Apr 29 2009, 01:21 PM, said:

We can't be sure, but I know some people here believe the angels are part of the creation described in Gen. 1 & 2 (I forget why).

Psalm 148:2

[Paidion]

Okay, I am going to give an answer which I am sure Christadelphians will not accept. Nevertheless, here goes.

Unlike Christadelphians, who believe the existence of the Son began in the womb of Mary, I (as well as the early Christians) believe He was "begotten before all ages as the first act of God". Indeed, I believe the begetting of the Son marked the beginning of time.

If we accept that the Logos was the Son of God (and the context indicates so) then

Quote

All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made. John 1:3

This is also borne out in the following passages:

Quote

All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:10

Quote

Colossians 1:16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Hebrews 1:3 He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power.

Hebrews 1:8-10 To the Son, He says, "God is your throne for ages and ages, and the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. For this reason, God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of joy alongside your partners." And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."

Notice that among the things that God says to His Son, is the last sentence, that He, God's Son, laid the foundation of the earth, and that the Heavens are the work of His hands.

So there's no doubt in my mind, who God was talking to when He said, "Let's make man in our image." He was talking to His Son.

Edited by Paidion, 30 April 2009 - 12:01 AM.

[composer]

He and answering said to them: Not have you read, that the Creator from a beginning a male and a female he made them? (Matt. 19: 4) EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT (My Bold)

Seems unambiguously clear that Jesus is stating that some one else performed the Creative act and it wasn't Jesus because Jesus said " . . . . he made them . . . . : NOT " I made them or we made them "

Cheers!

Edited by composer, 30 April 2009 - 02:49 AM.

[granny]

Evangelion, on Apr 30 2009, 07:34 AM, said:

nsr, on Apr 29 2009, 10:13 PM, said:

I would understand it as God doing the creative work through the angels.

I used to believe this, but there are too many verses in which the Father takes sole credit for creation. Also, Jesus refers to the creator as singular, not plural.

Well I haven't given it a lot of thought, but couldn't it be like an architect gets the honour a glory for the building as he was the designer and overseer of the project, but the workmen actually did what the architect decreed? We know the angels were there when creation was happening:
[indent]Job 38:3-7 Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. (4) "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. (5) Who determined its measurements--surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? (6) On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, (7) when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

[/indent]

[God&me]

Gileade, on Apr 29 2009, 09:53 PM, said:

In Genesis 1:26 we read

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. "

Who are the us here? I have read some explanations that say God is speaking to the angels. But if I am not mistaken I have read somewhere that the Angels were not involved in the creation...

Also in this passage we find the word "alone":

"Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Is 44:24

The angels were present but God alone was the Creator?

"Let us make" = more than one making?

Some light please

To get the truth we need to see what the original Hebrew said, [The Old Testament was wrote in Hebrew]

[1] Genesis 1: 1, In the begining God "Elohim" [ Elohim is a plural word, meaning more then two] created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1: 26. And God "Elohim" [plural] said, Let US [Plural] make man in our [plural] image.

Gen 3: 22. And the Lord God "Elohim" [plural] said, man has become one of US [plural]

[2] Nowhere does the Bible say angels were involved in createtion The Hebrew word for "Angels" are,
"abbir", meaning mighty. "malak", meaning messenger. and "shinan", meaning many.
The Greek New Testament word for "Angles" is "Angelos". A messenger. Or "isanglos", meaning equal to angels. Lk 20; 36.

Because God "Elohim" means more then two, The answer to your question is, The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
We know they were both involved in the creation.
Gen 1:2, John 1: 1-14.

[Fortigurn]

God&me, on May 4 2009, 12:53 AM, said:

To get the truth we need to see what the original Hebrew said, [The Old Testament was wrote in Hebrew]

[1] Genesis 1: 1, In the begining God "Elohim" [ Elohim is a plural word, meaning more then two] created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1: 26. And God "Elohim" [plural] said, Let US [Plural] make man in our [plural] image.

Gen 3: 22. And the Lord God "Elohim" [plural] said, man has become one of US [plural]

[2] Nowhere does the Bible say angels were involved in createtion The Hebrew word for "Angels" are,
"abbir", meaning mighty. "malak", meaning messenger. and "shinan", meaning many.
The Greek New Testament word for "Angles" is "Angelos". A messenger. Or "isanglos", meaning equal to angels. Lk 20; 36.

Because God "Elohim" means more then two, The answer to your question is, The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
We know they were both involved in the creation.
Gen 1:2, John 1: 1-14.

That isn't what the original Hebrew said. You have misunderstood the meaning of the word 'elohim'. The word 'elohim' is not a 'plural noun’. It has an ending which in other nouns is plural), but in fact it can refer either to a singular or plural subject, just like 'fish' and 'sheep'. It's the subject/verb agreement which identifies whether it is singular or plural, as in English.

Other nouns of this class include the following (places where the usage is singular are in parentheses):

* zequnim: old age (Genesis 21:2, 7; 37:3; 44:20)

* ne`urim: youth (1 Samuel 17:33)

* 'adonim: lord (Isaiah 19:4)

In English, if I say 'The fish is blue', you know I'm talking about one fish, not because 'fish' is the singular form of 'fish', but because 'is' is the singular verb. If I say 'the sheep are outside', you know I am talking about more than one sheep, not because 'sheep' is the plural form of 'sheep', but because 'are' is the plural verb. The same applies to the Hebrew word 'elohim'. Whenever the verb is singular, the noun refers to only one person.

When 'elohim' takes the plural verb, it refers to more than one person, such as the gods of the heathen, men, or angels. But the singular verb is used when 'elohim' is used of God Himself. This reinforces repeatedly that God is one person.

In Genesis 1:26, God ('elohim'), said 'Let us make', addressing persons other than Himself (the angels in His presence to whom He speaks, as in 1 Kings 22:19-22, and Isaiah 6:1-8).

When the actual creation takes place in verse 27, the word 'elohim' is used with the singular form of the verb 'make', proving that the creation was carried out by only one person. If the creation had been carried out by more than one person, it would necessarily have been described with the plural form of the verb. Many trinitarian scholars have now abandoned the old idea that Genesis 1:26 is a reference to the different persons in the trinity.

From the footnote on Genesis 1:26 in the New English Translation (a standard evangelical translation):

Quote

The plural form of the verb has been the subject of much discussion through the years, and not surprisingly several suggestions have been put forward. Many Christian theologians interpret it as an early hint of plurality within the Godhead, but this view imposes later trinitarian concepts on the ancient text.

Some have suggested the plural verb indicates majesty, but the plural of majesty is not used with verbs. C. Westermann (Genesis, 1:145) argues for a plural of “deliberation” here, but his proposed examples of this use (2 Sam 24:14; Isa 6:8) do not actually support his theory. In 2 Sam 24:14 David uses the plural as representative of all Israel, and in Isa 6:8 the Lord speaks on behalf of his heavenly court.

In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6; Isa 6:1-8). (The most well-known members of this court are God’s messengers, or angels. In Gen 3:5 the serpent may refer to this group as “gods/divine beings.”

See the note on the word “evil” in 3:5.) If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate in the creation of mankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job 38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (v. 27). Of course, this view does assume that the members of the heavenly court possess the divine “image” in some way.

At this point we turn to the NET's note on Psalm 8:5:

Quote

Psalm 8:
8:5 and make them almost like the heavenly beings?"

16tn Heb “and you make him lack a little from {the} gods {or “God”}.” The Piel form of rsj, “to decrease, to be devoid,” is used only here and in Eccl 4:8, where it means “to deprive, to cause to be lacking.” The prefixed verbal form with vav consecutive either carries on the characteristic nuance of the imperfect in v. 5b or indicates a consequence (“so that you make him…”) of the preceding statement (see GKC §111.m). Some prefer to make this an independent clause and translate it as a new sentence, “You made him….” In this case the statement might refer specifically to the creation of the first human couple, Adam and Eve (cf. Gen 1:26-27).

The psalmist does appear to allude to Gen 1:26-27, where mankind is created in the image of God and his angelic assembly (note “let us make man in our image” in Gen 1:26).

However, the psalmist’s statement need not be limited in its focus to that historical event, for all mankind shares the image imparted to the first human couple. Consequently the psalmist can speak in general terms of the exalted nature of mankind.

The referent of <yhla (elohim, “God” or “the heavenly beings”) is unclear. Some understand this as a reference to God alone, but the allusion to Gen 1:26-27 suggests a broader referent, including God and the other heavenly beings (known in other texts as “angels”).

The term <yhla (elohim) is also used in this way in Gen 3:5, where the serpent says to the woman, “you will be like the heavenly beings who know good and evil.” (Note Gen 3:22, where God says, “the man has become like one of us.”) Also <yhla (elohim) may refer to the members of the heavenly assembly in Ps 82:1, 6. The LXX (the ancient Greek translation of the OT) reads “angels” in Ps 8:5 (this is the source of the quotation of Ps 8:5 in Heb 2:7).

Again, the NET Bible interprets the phrase 'Let us make man in our image as referring to both God and His angelic assembly.

It is worth noting that the Jews (who may be relied upon to know Hebrew), always understood 'elohim' and the singular verb to refer to one person, and translated it with the singular word for God in their Greek translations of the Old Testament (THEOS). The Jews of course have for thousands of years worshipped God as one person, and He has never seen fit to reveal they should do otherwise.

[glimmer]

Fortigurn, on May 3 2009, 01:26 PM, said:

God&me, on May 4 2009, 12:53 AM, said:

To get the truth we need to see what the original Hebrew said, [The Old Testament was wrote in Hebrew]

[1] Genesis 1: 1, In the begining God "Elohim" [ Elohim is a plural word, meaning more then two] created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1: 26. And God "Elohim" [plural] said, Let US [Plural] make man in our [plural] image.

Gen 3: 22. And the Lord God "Elohim" [plural] said, man has become one of US [plural]

[2] Nowhere does the Bible say angels were involved in createtion The Hebrew word for "Angels" are,
"abbir", meaning mighty. "malak", meaning messenger. and "shinan", meaning many.
The Greek New Testament word for "Angles" is "Angelos". A messenger. Or "isanglos", meaning equal to angels. Lk 20; 36.

Because God "Elohim" means more then two, The answer to your question is, The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
We know they were both involved in the creation.
Gen 1:2, John 1: 1-14.

That isn't what the original Hebrew said. You have misunderstood the meaning of the word 'elohim'. The word 'elohim' is not a 'plural noun’. It has an ending which in other nouns is plural), but in fact it can refer either to a singular or plural subject, just like 'fish' and 'sheep'. It's the subject/verb agreement which identifies whether it is singular or plural, as in English.

Other nouns of this class include the following (places where the usage is singular are in parentheses):

* zequnim: old age (Genesis 21:2, 7; 37:3; 44:20)

* ne`urim: youth (1 Samuel 17:33)

* 'adonim: lord (Isaiah 19:4)

In English, if I say 'The fish is blue', you know I'm talking about one fish, not because 'fish' is the singular form of 'fish', but because 'is' is the singular verb. If I say 'the sheep are outside', you know I am talking about more than one sheep, not because 'sheep' is the plural form of 'sheep', but because 'are' is the plural verb. The same applies to the Hebrew word 'elohim'. Whenever the verb is singular, the noun refers to only one person.

When 'elohim' takes the plural verb, it refers to more than one person, such as the gods of the heathen, men, or angels. But the singular verb is used when 'elohim' is used of God Himself. This reinforces repeatedly that God is one person.

In Genesis 1:26, God ('elohim'), said 'Let us make', addressing persons other than Himself (the angels in His presence to whom He speaks, as in 1 Kings 22:19-22, and Isaiah 6:1-8).

When the actual creation takes place in verse 27, the word 'elohim' is used with the singular form of the verb 'make', proving that the creation was carried out by only one person. If the creation had been carried out by more than one person, it would necessarily have been described with the plural form of the verb. Many trinitarian scholars have now abandoned the old idea that Genesis 1:26 is a reference to the different persons in the trinity.

From the footnote on Genesis 1:26 in the New English Translation (a standard evangelical translation):

Quote

The plural form of the verb has been the subject of much discussion through the years, and not surprisingly several suggestions have been put forward. Many Christian theologians interpret it as an early hint of plurality within the Godhead, but this view imposes later trinitarian concepts on the ancient text.

Some have suggested the plural verb indicates majesty, but the plural of majesty is not used with verbs. C. Westermann (Genesis, 1:145) argues for a plural of “deliberation” here, but his proposed examples of this use (2 Sam 24:14; Isa 6:8) do not actually support his theory. In 2 Sam 24:14 David uses the plural as representative of all Israel, and in Isa 6:8 the Lord speaks on behalf of his heavenly court.

In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6; Isa 6:1-8). (The most well-known members of this court are God’s messengers, or angels. In Gen 3:5 the serpent may refer to this group as “gods/divine beings.”

See the note on the word “evil” in 3:5.) If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate in the creation of mankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job 38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (v. 27). Of course, this view does assume that the members of the heavenly court possess the divine “image” in some way.

At this point we turn to the NET's note on Psalm 8:5:

Quote

Psalm 8:
8:5 and make them almost like the heavenly beings?"

16tn Heb “and you make him lack a little from {the} gods {or “God”}.” The Piel form of rsj, “to decrease, to be devoid,” is used only here and in Eccl 4:8, where it means “to deprive, to cause to be lacking.” The prefixed verbal form with vav consecutive either carries on the characteristic nuance of the imperfect in v. 5b or indicates a consequence (“so that you make him…”) of the preceding statement (see GKC §111.m). Some prefer to make this an independent clause and translate it as a new sentence, “You made him….” In this case the statement might refer specifically to the creation of the first human couple, Adam and Eve (cf. Gen 1:26-27).

The psalmist does appear to allude to Gen 1:26-27, where mankind is created in the image of God and his angelic assembly (note “let us make man in our image” in Gen 1:26).

However, the psalmist’s statement need not be limited in its focus to that historical event, for all mankind shares the image imparted to the first human couple. Consequently the psalmist can speak in general terms of the exalted nature of mankind.

The referent of <yhla (elohim, “God” or “the heavenly beings”) is unclear. Some understand this as a reference to God alone, but the allusion to Gen 1:26-27 suggests a broader referent, including God and the other heavenly beings (known in other texts as “angels”).

The term <yhla (elohim) is also used in this way in Gen 3:5, where the serpent says to the woman, “you will be like the heavenly beings who know good and evil.” (Note Gen 3:22, where God says, “the man has become like one of us.”) Also <yhla (elohim) may refer to the members of the heavenly assembly in Ps 82:1, 6. The LXX (the ancient Greek translation of the OT) reads “angels” in Ps 8:5 (this is the source of the quotation of Ps 8:5 in Heb 2:7).

Again, the NET Bible interprets the phrase 'Let us make man in our image as referring to both God and His angelic assembly.

It is worth noting that the Jews (who may be relied upon to know Hebrew), always understood 'elohim' and the singular verb to refer to one person, and translated it with the singular word for God in their Greek translations of the Old Testament (THEOS). The Jews of course have for thousands of years worshipped God as one person, and He has never seen fit to reveal they should do otherwise.

Nice info Fort! Thanks! I need to write some of this in my Bible margin.

[Fortigurn]

[composer]

"The fanciful idea that Elohim referred to the Trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what the grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God” (William Smith, A Dictionary of the Bible, ed. Peloubet, MacDonald Pub. Co., 1948, p. 220).

[Fortigurn]

Hudders, on May 4 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

Thanks by the way Fort, that sums up things quite nicely. I'll be saving a copy of that for later reference.

Note that some of it was borrowed from Ev's article in the Armoury.

Edited by Fortigurn, 04 May 2009 - 10:36 AM.

[composer]

Hudders, on May 4 2009, 10:22 AM, said:

composer, on May 4 2009, 02:36 AM, said:

"The fanciful idea that Elohim referred to the Trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what the grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God” (William Smith, A Dictionary of the Bible, ed. Peloubet, MacDonald Pub. Co., 1948, p. 220).

This doesn't agree with what was posted above. The word is singular in the context of Genesis 1v26-27 as it says in the NET study notes (published a few years ago) and is nothing to do with 'plurality of majesty' or 'the fulness of divine strength' (as the book from 1948 says).

Thanks by the way Fort, that sums up things quite nicely. I'll be saving a copy of that for later reference. :book:

I am sorry you feel that way. I used it because it makes sense to me about the proper meaning and use of ' elohim '

I quote the following notes I received many years ago -

"Elohim" is one of those words which Hebrew Scholars have managed to complicate rather more than necessary. In the past scholars used to pass it off as "Royal plural". Modern Scholars have invented a BIG word for it which Hebrew Grammars call "PLURAL INTENSIVE".

However don't be fooled by that word "plural". In practical terms, all it means is that a word which LOOKS plural, (because it ends with "IM") is actually singular.

In simpler layman's language, "plural intensive" means that "Elohim" is BOTH plural and singular, depending on how it is used in context. When reading the Hebrew text, you don't know which is intended, until you see the accompanying pronouns and/or verbs.

When it appears with singular pronouns and/or verbs it is singular!

When it appears with plural pronouns and/or verbs, it is plural!

There are several other Hebrew words which are used the same way. e.g.
"mayim" (=water or waters) "panim" (=face or faces)

We have similar words in English! e.g. sheep. We could use "sheep" singular and "sheep" plural, to illustrate the important point that words in English can have identical spelling, but be either singular or plural in meaning. We have no way of knowing which is intended until we read the verb and/or pronoun which accompanies the word. Then we can tell at a glance. i.e. If we say "the sheep IS in the field", the SINGULAR verb tells us that there is only ONE!

But if we say "the sheep ARE in the field", the PLURAL verb tells us that there is MORE than one.

For simplified practical layman's purposes, that is how it is with the great majority of appearances of ELOHIM in the Hebrew Old Testament. The common mistake made, especially by Trinitarian theologians, is to fail to distinguish between these TWO different uses of "Elohim" just described above. And THAT leads to all sorts of illogical conclusions! (Such as the Trinity, or Oneness, or Arianism)

Provided to me by - Allon

[God&me]

Fortigurn, on May 3 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

God&me, on May 4 2009, 12:53 AM, said:

To get the truth we need to see what the original Hebrew said, [The Old Testament was wrote in Hebrew]

[1] Genesis 1: 1, In the begining God "Elohim" [ Elohim is a plural word, meaning more then two] created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1: 26. And God "Elohim" [plural] said, Let US [Plural] make man in our [plural] image.

Gen 3: 22. And the Lord God "Elohim" [plural] said, man has become one of US [plural]

[2] Nowhere does the Bible say angels were involved in createtion The Hebrew word for "Angels" are,
"abbir", meaning mighty. "malak", meaning messenger. and "shinan", meaning many.
The Greek New Testament word for "Angles" is "Angelos". A messenger. Or "isanglos", meaning equal to angels. Lk 20; 36.

Because God "Elohim" means more then two, The answer to your question is, The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
We know they were both involved in the creation.
Gen 1:2, John 1: 1-14.

That isn't what the original Hebrew said. You have misunderstood the meaning of the word 'elohim'. The word 'elohim' is not a 'plural noun’. It has an ending which in other nouns is plural), but in fact it can refer either to a singular or plural subject, just like 'fish' and 'sheep'. It's the subject/verb agreement which identifies whether it is singular or plural, as in English.

Other nouns of this class include the following (places where the usage is singular are in parentheses):

* zequnim: old age (Genesis 21:2, 7; 37:3; 44:20)

* ne`urim: youth (1 Samuel 17:33)

* 'adonim: lord (Isaiah 19:4)

In English, if I say 'The fish is blue', you know I'm talking about one fish, not because 'fish' is the singular form of 'fish', but because 'is' is the singular verb. If I say 'the sheep are outside', you know I am talking about more than one sheep, not because 'sheep' is the plural form of 'sheep', but because 'are' is the plural verb. The same applies to the Hebrew word 'elohim'. Whenever the verb is singular, the noun refers to only one person.

When 'elohim' takes the plural verb, it refers to more than one person, such as the gods of the heathen, men, or angels. But the singular verb is used when 'elohim' is used of God Himself. This reinforces repeatedly that God is one person.

In Genesis 1:26, God ('elohim'), said 'Let us make', addressing persons other than Himself (the angels in His presence to whom He speaks, as in 1 Kings 22:19-22, and Isaiah 6:1-8).

When the actual creation takes place in verse 27, the word 'elohim' is used with the singular form of the verb 'make', proving that the creation was carried out by only one person. If the creation had been carried out by more than one person, it would necessarily have been described with the plural form of the verb. Many trinitarian scholars have now abandoned the old idea that Genesis 1:26 is a reference to the different persons in the trinity.

From the footnote on Genesis 1:26 in the New English Translation (a standard evangelical translation):

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The plural form of the verb has been the subject of much discussion through the years, and not surprisingly several suggestions have been put forward. Many Christian theologians interpret it as an early hint of plurality within the Godhead, but this view imposes later trinitarian concepts on the ancient text.

Some have suggested the plural verb indicates majesty, but the plural of majesty is not used with verbs. C. Westermann (Genesis, 1:145) argues for a plural of “deliberation” here, but his proposed examples of this use (2 Sam 24:14; Isa 6:8) do not actually support his theory. In 2 Sam 24:14 David uses the plural as representative of all Israel, and in Isa 6:8 the Lord speaks on behalf of his heavenly court.

In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6; Isa 6:1-8). (The most well-known members of this court are God’s messengers, or angels. In Gen 3:5 the serpent may refer to this group as “gods/divine beings.”

See the note on the word “evil” in 3:5.) If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate in the creation of mankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job 38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (v. 27). Of course, this view does assume that the members of the heavenly court possess the divine “image” in some way.

At this point we turn to the NET's note on Psalm 8:5:

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Psalm 8:
8:5 and make them almost like the heavenly beings?"

16tn Heb “and you make him lack a little from {the} gods {or “God”}.” The Piel form of rsj, “to decrease, to be devoid,” is used only here and in Eccl 4:8, where it means “to deprive, to cause to be lacking.” The prefixed verbal form with vav consecutive either carries on the characteristic nuance of the imperfect in v. 5b or indicates a consequence (“so that you make him…”) of the preceding statement (see GKC §111.m). Some prefer to make this an independent clause and translate it as a new sentence, “You made him….” In this case the statement might refer specifically to the creation of the first human couple, Adam and Eve (cf. Gen 1:26-27).

The psalmist does appear to allude to Gen 1:26-27, where mankind is created in the image of God and his angelic assembly (note “let us make man in our image” in Gen 1:26).

However, the psalmist’s statement need not be limited in its focus to that historical event, for all mankind shares the image imparted to the first human couple. Consequently the psalmist can speak in general terms of the exalted nature of mankind.

The referent of <yhla (elohim, “God” or “the heavenly beings”) is unclear. Some understand this as a reference to God alone, but the allusion to Gen 1:26-27 suggests a broader referent, including God and the other heavenly beings (known in other texts as “angels”).

The term <yhla (elohim) is also used in this way in Gen 3:5, where the serpent says to the woman, “you will be like the heavenly beings who know good and evil.” (Note Gen 3:22, where God says, “the man has become like one of us.”) Also <yhla (elohim) may refer to the members of the heavenly assembly in Ps 82:1, 6. The LXX (the ancient Greek translation of the OT) reads “angels” in Ps 8:5 (this is the source of the quotation of Ps 8:5 in Heb 2:7).

Again, the NET Bible interprets the phrase 'Let us make man in our image as referring to both God and His angelic assembly.

It is worth noting that the Jews (who may be relied upon to know Hebrew), always understood 'elohim' and the singular verb to refer to one person, and translated it with the singular word for God in their Greek translations of the Old Testament (THEOS). The Jews of course have for thousands of years worshipped God as one person, and He has never seen fit to reveal they should do otherwise.

[1] The Hebrew word, "Elohim" Is plural, What I have put is from the original Hebrew text, You have either misunderstood the Hebrew meanig or misquoted. If "Elohim" wasn't plural, why did God say, "LET US" Gen 1: 26. and "ONE OF US", Gen 3: 22.

[2] You said when Elohim takes the plural verb, it refers to more then one person. That is right.
The Father Son and Holy Ghost. When God said, "Let us", He wasn't talking to angels, as I said in my earlier post, Because you don't find any of the angels in creation.

[Guido]

Gileade, on Apr 29 2009, 04:53 PM, said:

Also in this passage we find the word "alone":

"Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Is 44:24

The angels were present but God alone was the Creator?

Just a thought here... speaking of Israel in the wilderness, it says in Deut 32:12 "12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him."

Yet, we're also told that Moses led Israel through the wilderness. The obvious meaning here is that Moses was leading Israel under God's direction. So, what would be the problem with the angels creating under God's direction? God could still say, in that case, that he alone created all things and there was no strange god with him.

That's actually the point of Is 44, is it not? There were no other gods involved in creation, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of the angels doing God's bidding. They are his ministers, after all.

Edited by Guido, 04 May 2009 - 05:23 PM.

[Fortigurn]

Guido, on May 5 2009, 01:19 AM, said:

That's actually the point of Is 44, is it not? There were no other gods involved in creation, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of the angels doing God's bidding. They are his ministers, after all.

True enough, but all the verses which speak about the creation attribute it to God alone. Scripture tells us that one person created all things. That one person was God, the Father, no one else:

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Genesis 1:
27So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

Who formed man and woman? One person. Not two or three people, one person.

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Psalm 33:
6By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

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Psalm 102:
25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

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Isaiah 64:
8But now, O LORD, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

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Jeremiah 32:
17Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee.

Jeremiah 27:
5I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.

Jeremiah 51:
15He hath made the earth[/b] by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.

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Isaiah 51:
13And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth.

II Kings 19:
15And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

Isaiah 42:
5Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Isaiah 44:
24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

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Isaiah 48:
13Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Let's have a look in the New Testament:

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Mathew 19:
4And {Jesus} answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

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Revelation 4:
11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.

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Revelation 14:
7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters...

Every pronoun is singular, and the verbs for creation are all singular. There are no references to anybody but the Father Himself creating the universe.

[Richie]

That's true Fort but you've missed Guido's point. Angels are ministers of God doing his will. I am sure you know all about the idea of agency.

[Fortigurn]

I didn't miss his point. I recognise the principle of agency, of course. My point was that we cannot ever claim that an action has been done through an agent unless there is at least one passage which tells us this. In the case of the creation, there are no passages which say this. All the passages say God created all things, alone. Otherwise we might as well be trinitarians and clam Jesus did it, despite the fact that not a single verse says anything of the kind.

[Richie]

OK point taken.

[tedfrank7878]

Gileade, on Apr 29 2009, 01:53 PM, said:

In Genesis 1:26 we read

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. "

Who are the us here? I have read some explanations that say God is speaking to the angels. But if I am not mistaken I have read somewhere that the Angels were not involved in the creation...

Also in this passage we find the word "alone":

"Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Is 44:24

The angels were present but God alone was the Creator?

"Let us make" = more than one making?

Some light please

It is a sign

Edited by Flappie, 05 May 2009 - 11:27 PM.
Removed advertising links

[God&me]

Hudders, on May 4 2009, 05:58 PM, said:

I suggest you have a read of Fortigurn's post. You have quoted what he wrote, but your straw men and repetition of questions demonstrates that you have not read anything he said. All of the answers you need are there.

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[1] The Hebrew word, "Elohim" Is plural, What I have put is from the original Hebrew text, You have either misunderstood the Hebrew meanig or misquoted. If "Elohim" wasn't plural, why did God say, "LET US" Gen 1: 26. and "ONE OF US", Gen 3: 22.

[2] You said when Elohim takes the plural verb, it refers to more then one person. That is right.
The Father Son and Holy Ghost. When God said, "Let us", He wasn't talking to angels, as I said in my earlier post, Because you don't find any of the angels in creation.

This has already been addressed here:

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The word 'elohim' is not a 'plural noun’. It has an ending which in other nouns is plural, but in fact it can refer either to a singular or plural subject, just like 'fish' and 'sheep'. It's the subject/verb agreement which identifies whether it is singular or plural, as in English.

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In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6; Isa 6:1-8). (The most well-known members of this court are God’s messengers, or angels. In Gen 3:5 the serpent may refer to this group as “gods/divine beings.”

Elohim In the Hebrew is plural which is backed up by, Gen 1: 26, God said "LET US". and in Gen 3: 22. where God said, "Man has become as one of "US". You cannot get Singular out of that.
The "US" cannot mean Angels because they didn't creat. You just have to except the facts, God wont change His word to suit you, You have to change your believing to agree with God

[composer]

Hudders, on May 4 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

Angels were not involved in creation, but since they have always existed, it is not too difficult to accept that they were present at creation, whilst God performed his creation acts.

Based upon God's consistent pattern - Probation before exultation, I personally believe the heavenly angels did not always exist. That God created everything by Himself and then some time later He found individuals ' worthy ' to receive angelic status (Luke 20:35) KJV. Were they on this earth prior to Adam & Eve, that is possible or were they from another planet I don't know.

I agree that ALL the evidence informs us that God Himself and no others performed the initial creative act, however the Heavenly angels were later given permission and authority to act as God's ALWAYS obedient Ministers. (Psalm 103:19 - 21) KJV

Edited by composer, 05 May 2009 - 01:15 AM.