70 replies to this topic

[Hawleyluyah]

The questions that I have are these.
Did Adam by his rebellion bring sin into the world?
And if Adam had not rebelled, would he have died?
Thank you for you time, and may Yahweh bless.

[Flappie]

The question is moot, Adam would have rebelled regardless.

[Hawleyluyah]

steveyb3, on Apr 23 2009, 10:39 AM, said:

There are two main schools of thought here as far as I'm aware (there are probably hundreds actually) but they are that Adam was immortal and wouldn't have ever died if he didn't eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or that Adam was never immortal, was always mortal and was going to die regardless.
My thoughts are that Adam was immortal and would have lived for ever had he not eaten of the forbidden fruit. I think it would have been wrong of God to create things that died if they didn't deserve to die by way of rebellion.
I believe that death didn't exist in the Garden of Eden at all and the Creation has been travailing in pain since the fall brought death into the world.
My Dad disagrees with me though- he thinks he couldn't have been immortal and then made mortal- that's illogical according to him. I guess it all depends on whether you think the Kingdom of God is Eden restored or whether you think the Garden of Eden was a part of God's plan and the Kingdom of God is something entirely seperate.
For me, the mention of the tree of life in Revelation indicates that the Kingdom of God is in fact Eden restored. Also God making his tabernacle with men on the Earth Revelation being similar to God dwelling with man on the earth in the Garden. Finally, Jesus saying you will be with my in paradise- paradise being the Greek word for Garden (I think) again indicating a return to Garden of Eden times.

Thank you steveyb3, I would tend to take your view on this, May Yahweh bless.

[Hawleyluyah]

Flappie, on Apr 23 2009, 10:49 AM, said:

The question is moot, Adam would have rebelled regardless.

The question is not moot at all, but for the sake of getting to the point, I'll reword it.
Did Yahweh count Adam a sinner before he rebelled?

[daysha]

Re: First question: God didn't count Adam as a sinner before he rebelled. Adam was sinless.

Re: Second question: It seems that before he sinned Adam was not mortal nor was he immortal. He wouldn't have died. I don't know the term for this third (or first actually) state. Non-mortal perhaps?

* Immortality - being incapable of dying.

* Mortal - the state of constant decline leading to death that we all possess since Adam's rebellion.
"Dying thou shalt die" seems to me to imply a person whose makeup is in a constant state of slow decline
all the way to the end - death. Entropy.

I think Adam's pre-fall state was neither mortal nor immortal. He must therefore have been capable of dying, but his body not 'entropic'. Thus death was not an eventuality for him, until he sinned.

Perhaps the thing that kept him from dying of something such as accidental death would have been his eating of the tree of life?
He wouldn't have died of illness & disease, nor by being attacked by fierce animals nor by the hand of a murderer anyway - not before the fall and sin & death becoming a part of the world.

It was quite different back in those days before Adam sinned.

It seems to me, that with all the allusions in the New Testament to Garden of Eden themes, God's plan is to restore the world to the state of the Garden of Eden, and extend this G of E worldwide - populated with immortal people who are incapable of rebelling or sinning.

P.S. We are not told what will happen in the millions of years of time after that. Our mortal brains probably couldn't even begin to comprehend it anyway.

Edited by dayshakiwi, 23 April 2009 - 09:10 PM.

[Hawleyluyah]

dayshakiwi, on Apr 23 2009, 03:32 PM, said:

Re: First question: God didn't count Adam as a sinner before he rebelled. Adam was sinless.

Yet by saying he was not immortal, your saying he was at this point subject to death?

Quote

Re: Second question: It seems that before he sinned Adam was not mortal nor was he immortal. He wouldn't have died. I don't know the term for this third (or first actually) state. Non-mortal perhaps?

* Immortality - being incapable of dying.

* Mortal - the state of constant decline leading to death that we all possess since Adam's rebellion.
"Dying thou shalt die" seems to me to imply a person whose makeup is in a constant state of slow decline
all the way to the end - death. Entropy.

I think Adam's pre-fall state was neither mortal nor immortal. He must therefore have been capable of dying, but his body not 'entropic'. Thus death was not an eventuality for him, until he sinned.

Perhaps the thing that kept him from dying of something such as accidental death would have been his eating of the tree of life?
He wouldn't have died of illness & disease, nor by being attacked by fierce animals nor by the hand of a murderer anyway - not before the fall and sin & death becoming a part of the world.

It was quite different back in those days before Adam sinned.

It seems to me, that with all the allusions in the New Testament to Garden of Eden themes, God's plan is to restore the world to the state of the Garden of Eden, and extend this G of E worldwide - populated with immortal people who are incapable of rebelling or sinning.

P.S. We are not told what will happen in the millions of years of time after that. Our mortal brains probably couldn't even begin to comprehend it anyway.

When it gets right down to it we have
* Immortality - not subject to death.

* Mortal -subject to death

It would seem your saying that if he became mortal, that it would mean the state he came from could not be immortal. So I would have to ask, what grounds can you apply to the impossibility of one not subject to death becoming subject to death, that would not work in reverse, making it an impossibility of one subject to death becoming no longer subject to death. I know I was not so clear, so I'll re ask the question if you like.

Also could you point me to where in scriptures I would find "Dying thou shalt die"

[nsr]

"Dying thou shalt die" is, I think, the direct translation of the Hebrew which normally gets translated as "thou shalt surely die", i.e. what God said would happen if they ate the forbidden fruit.

The final answer always has to be: we don't know. There isn't enough information for us to know for sure. My own opinion was that before they ate the fruit, Adam and Eve were capable of dying, in that sufficient physical harm would kill them, but they did not age or decay, and death was not the certainty that it is now. Living in God's presence in Eden protected them from physical harm. Theoretically they could have lived for ever if they had never encountered anything that would harm them. When they sinned, God cursed them to age and decay, and cast them out of the garden into a place where physical harm was possible.

But that's just my opinion. Don't ask me to prove it, because I can't.

[Hawleyluyah]

nsr, on Apr 23 2009, 04:56 PM, said:

"Dying thou shalt die" is, I think, the direct translation of the Hebrew which normally gets translated as "thou shalt surely die", i.e. what God said would happen if they ate the forbidden fruit.

The final answer always has to be: we don't know. There isn't enough information for us to know for sure. My own opinion was that before they ate the fruit, Adam and Eve were capable of dying, in that sufficient physical harm would kill them, but they did not age or decay, and death was not the certainty that it is now. Living in God's presence in Eden protected them from physical harm. Theoretically they could have lived for ever if they had never encountered anything that would harm them. When they sinned, God cursed them to age and decay, and cast them out of the garden into a place where physical harm was possible.

But that's just my opinion. Don't ask me to prove it, because I can't.

And I would have to agree with you here, but I would have to say that Living in Yahweh's presence in Eden and being protected from all harm, would mean they were clothed with immortality, in that state they were not subject to death.

[daysha]

I can't find anything in the Bible that says that Adam and Eve were immortal before they sinned.

[Hawleyluyah]

dayshakiwi, on Apr 23 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

I can't find anything in the Bible that says that Adam and Eve were immortal before they sinned.

Will I see it as this, through Adam sin entered into the world, and death by sin.
Rom 5:12
And sin is by definition disobedience to Yahweh's commands.
1 John 3:4
So until Adam went against the one command he was given, he had no sin, and without sin how can there be death, and without death, is this not immortality?

Immortality
The condition of being exempt from death or destruction.

[Alethinos]

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 24 2009, 02:42 AM, said:

dayshakiwi, on Apr 23 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

I can't find anything in the Bible that says that Adam and Eve were immortal before they sinned.

Will I see it as this, through Adam sin entered into the world, and death by sin.
Rom 5:12
And sin is by definition disobedience to Yahweh's commands.
1 John 3:4
So until Adam went against the one command he was given, he had no sin, and without sin how can there be death, and without death, is this not immortality?

Immortality
The condition of being exempt from death or destruction.

Hi Hawleyluyah

If Adam was already Immortal why would there need to be a tree of life in the garden?
[indent]Ge 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:[/indent]
The Immortals Angels have the "divine nature" we know this because we are told that if accepted we will share the "divine nature" and be "equal to the angels" who cannot "die any more"!. No possibility of ever dying.
[indent]2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Lu 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage
:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.[/indent]
There is no possibility of sin for one possessing a "divine nature", we are given example of how the Angels always do God's will
[indent]Ps 103:21 Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.
Ps 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word[/indent]
Adam could not have been immortal because when a person is made immortal there is no possibility of death.
We have no examples in scripture of anyone possessing the divine nature sinning or dying.
If Immortals can die then God can die, but we know he will not and can not die.
[indent]1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.[/indent]

All the Best
Alethinos

Edited by Alethinos, 24 April 2009 - 07:35 AM.

[composer]

The fact the Tree of Life was there and freely available to them indicates to me they were not immortal and that with the fact that immortal to literal death is a contradiction.

If I may also ask,

Considering the Serpent was ' not told ' by God that it should not lie " thou shalt not surely die " (Gen. 3: 4) KJV why was it punished?

a) Is it that all disobedience must be punished?

b) Then again no Law had been given specifically to the Serpent so it should not be culpable (Rom. 4:15) KJV

c) Other?

[daysha]

steveyb3, on Apr 24 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

One of these ridiculous hypothetical scenarios now: what if they never sinned and just lived out until they died of old age?

My understanding of this is that they would not have aged at all before the fall.
Their bodies were as fresh as the day that God created them.
None of the entropic processes of 'dying thou shalt die' had taken place yet.

And then they sinned.

Once they'd sinned and God had pronounced the sentence of death upon them, the aging process was set in motion, leading to their enevitable death (from old age, accident or misadventure - whichever comes first.)

Therefore, if they'd not have sinned, they would not have experienced the gradual decline into old age (that the writer of Ecclesiates describes ) that most of us have to put up with.

If they had not have sinned, their bodies would remain as fresh as a daisy, indefinitely, in an environment that did not 'groan and travail'.

Edited by dayshakiwi, 24 April 2009 - 12:35 PM.

[Jon D]

steveyb3, on Apr 24 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

Why is there a Tree of Life in Revelation if the people are immortal? The leaves are for the healing of the nations but maybe there is fruit that people will eat just like Adam and Eve ate? I'm not sure if it mentions that but it makes sense to me.

Ste,

These are my expanded marginal notes on Rev 22, they might help?

Verse 1 - 2
The symbols employed in vs. 1 - 2 are a picture of the teaching of mortals in the “thousand years”. A few links to Psalm 36 vs. 7 – 9 prove this.

“pure” – same word in John 15 vs. 3 “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.” The symbol of the pure river is one of clear teaching. The effect of this is that the teaching makes us pure. The same word in Matt 5 vs. 8 “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God” which links to vs. 4 “and they shall see his face”.

“river” – same word in John 7 vs. 38 “He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water” which links with “river of water of life” in Rev.

“water of life” – cp. John 7 vs. 37 – 39. Represents the spirit teaching of Christ cp. John 4 vs. 14, 6 vs. 63. Water is a type of doctrine – Deut 32 vs. 2. As a result of this teaching “for the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea” (Hab 2 vs. 14).

“proceeding out of the throne...” – this language is picked up from Ezekiel 47. Revelation is teaching us the moral principle behind the literal river of the Temple.

“tree of life” – principle of many in one. Greek word xulon is a singular word but must be plural as it’s on both sides of river. The translators have applied this word plurally in Matt 26 vs. 47 etc. Two words for tree in Rev – the other is dendron found in 7 vs. 1, 3, 8 vs. 7, 9 vs. 4. Tree represents Christ for he is “the life” (John 14 vs. 6) and his brethren in one. It is an immortal tree/wood – Rev 2 vs. 27.

“leaves of the tree” – leaves are representative of men – Job 13 vs. 24 – 25, Isaiah 64 vs. 6. Leaf with fruit is notable – contrast teaching of Christ to Israel (same word) “And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only” (Matt 21 vs. 19). Leaves are pictures of individual saints. Jeremiah 17 vs. 7 – 8 depicts Christ (and by implication, the Christ body) with green leaves. The leaves of a tree do the breathing, as the spirit word will be breathed out through the saints to heal the nations. Isaiah 30 vs. 15.

“healing of the nations” – the language is again picked up from Eze 47 vs. 12. The saints will attend to the moral health of the nations.

Verse 3 – 4
Speaking now after thousand years.

“no more curse” – curse of sin and death.

Edited by Elimelech, 24 April 2009 - 12:39 PM.

[Hawleyluyah]

Alethinos, on Apr 24 2009, 02:07 AM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 24 2009, 02:42 AM, said:

dayshakiwi, on Apr 23 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

I can't find anything in the Bible that says that Adam and Eve were immortal before they sinned.

Will I see it as this, through Adam sin entered into the world, and death by sin.
Rom 5:12
And sin is by definition disobedience to Yahweh's commands.
1 John 3:4
So until Adam went against the one command he was given, he had no sin, and without sin how can there be death, and without death, is this not immortality?

Immortality
The condition of being exempt from death or destruction.

Hi Hawleyluyah

If Adam was already Immortal why would there need to be a tree of life in the garden?
[indent]Ge 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:[/indent]

Blessings Alethinos
As steveyb3 pointed out, that tree is found also in Revelations in the Paradise of Elohim, so by the same token why would it be needed there?

Quote

The Immortals Angels have the "divine nature" we know this because we are told that if accepted we will share the "divine nature" and be "equal to the angels" who cannot "die any more"!. No possibility of ever dying.
[indent]2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Lu 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage
:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.[/indent]

I would have to say this is your interpretation of immortality on man, but not the real one, it comes down to the simple terms of being or not being subject to death, and one can go from not subject to subject just as one can go from subject to not subject. We, like the Angels will put on immortality, much like a garment, (1Co 15:53-4).
We are clothed with it because we truly do not have it, Yahweh alone has immortality (1 Tim 6:16) he is the only one that CAN NOT die, and what we will possess is only there by his will

Quote

There is no possibility of sin for one possessing a "divine nature", we are given example of how the Angels always do God's will
[indent]Ps 103:21 Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.
Ps 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word[/indent]
Adam could not have been immortal because when a person is made immortal there is no possibility of death.
We have no examples in scripture of anyone possessing the divine nature sinning or dying.

Actuelly there is but most here try to say it does not mean what it says, Satan was cast out of Heaven, and took a large following of Angels with him, and will at some point be consumed.

Quote

If Immortals can die then God can die, but we know he will not and can not die.
[indent]1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.[/indent]

All the Best
Alethinos

You are right, Yahweh can not die for he alone truly is immortal, but all else not subject to death are due to His mercy, and is a covering that He provides, there is a difference.

May Yahweh bless.

[Hawleyluyah]

steveyb3, on Apr 24 2009, 04:11 AM, said:

Why is there a Tree of Life in Revelation if the people are immortal? The leaves are for the healing of the nations but maybe there is fruit that people will eat just like Adam and Eve ate? I'm not sure if it mentions that but it makes sense to me.

The wages of sin is death. Death was brought into the world by sin. If God made his Creation subject to death from the start there is no point of the fall seeing as they were going to die anyway. Do not do it, you will surely die seems implausible to me if they were already going to die anyway of old age or disease or fatal accident.

One of these ridiculous hypothetical scenarios now: what if they never sinned and just lived out until they died of old age? What would be the justification for their death? God is just but they didn't deserve to die if they didn't sin according to the Bible (wages of sin is death- death is not a consequence of life).

I don't think Adam was a sinner before his rebellion- there was no instrument of deception e.g. a serpent.

Good post, I much agree.

[Hawleyluyah]

composer, on Apr 24 2009, 06:30 AM, said:

The fact the Tree of Life was there and freely available to them indicates to me they were not immortal and that with the fact that immortal to literal death is a contradiction.

If I may also ask,

Considering the Serpent was ' not told ' by God that it should not lie " thou shalt not surely die " (Gen. 3: 4) KJV why was it punished?

a) Is it that all disobedience must be punished?

b) Then again no Law had been given specifically to the Serpent so it should not be culpable (Rom. 4:15) KJV

c) Other?

Blessings composer
Your going on the assumption that he was not told, this leads me to the assumption that you feel the serpent was an actual serpent. Scripture says the serpent was more crafty then the others of creation, but does not state when or where the serpent was created, Gen. opens with In a beginning, not in the beginning, it's our beginning, but not necessarily the beginning of the serpent, and we know that the Dragon of Revelation is that serpent of old.

Thank you for your time.

Edited by Hawleyluyah, 24 April 2009 - 03:03 PM.

[Hawleyluyah]

dayshakiwi, on Apr 24 2009, 07:22 AM, said:

steveyb3, on Apr 24 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

One of these ridiculous hypothetical scenarios now: what if they never sinned and just lived out until they died of old age?

My understanding of this is that they would not have aged at all before the fall.
Their bodies were as fresh as the day that God created them.
None of the entropic processes of 'dying thou shalt die' had taken place yet.

And then they sinned.

Once they'd sinned and God had pronounced the sentence of death upon them, the aging process was set in motion, leading to their enevitable death (from old age, accident or misadventure - whichever comes first.)

Therefore, if they'd not have sinned, they would not have experienced the gradual decline into old age (that the writer of Ecclesiates describes ) that most of us have to put up with.

If they had not have sinned, their bodies would remain as fresh as a daisy, indefinitely, in an environment that did not 'groan and travail'.

Blessings dayshakiwi.
Very good post, I agree with your thoughts here.
May Yahweh bless.

[Alethinos]

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 24 2009, 04:07 PM, said:

dayshakiwi, on Apr 24 2009, 07:22 AM, said:

steveyb3, on Apr 24 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

One of these ridiculous hypothetical scenarios now: what if they never sinned and just lived out until they died of old age?

My understanding of this is that they would not have aged at all before the fall.
Their bodies were as fresh as the day that God created them.
None of the entropic processes of 'dying thou shalt die' had taken place yet.

And then they sinned.

Once they'd sinned and God had pronounced the sentence of death upon them, the aging process was set in motion, leading to their enevitable death (from old age, accident or misadventure - whichever comes first.)

Therefore, if they'd not have sinned, they would not have experienced the gradual decline into old age (that the writer of Ecclesiates describes ) that most of us have to put up with.

If they had not have sinned, their bodies would remain as fresh as a daisy, indefinitely, in an environment that did not 'groan and travail'.

Blessings dayshakiwi.
Very good post, I agree with your thoughts here.
May Yahweh bless.

Me To a very good post, thanks dayshakiwi

All the Best
Alethinos

[Hawleyluyah]

Elimelech, on Apr 24 2009, 07:38 AM, said:

steveyb3, on Apr 24 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

Why is there a Tree of Life in Revelation if the people are immortal? The leaves are for the healing of the nations but maybe there is fruit that people will eat just like Adam and Eve ate? I'm not sure if it mentions that but it makes sense to me.

Ste,

These are my expanded marginal notes on Rev 22, they might help?

Verse 1 - 2
The symbols employed in vs. 1 - 2 are a picture of the teaching of mortals in the “thousand years”. A few links to Psalm 36 vs. 7 – 9 prove this.

Blessings Elimelech
If you could, I would like you to show me what it is that makes Psalm 36 refer to the thousand years, and not just our being here, and the in the next life.

Quote

“pure” – same word in John 15 vs. 3 “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.” The symbol of the pure river is one of clear teaching. The effect of this is that the teaching makes us pure. The same word in Matt 5 vs. 8 “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God” which links to vs. 4 “and they shall see his face”.

“river” – same word in John 7 vs. 38 “He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water” which links with “river of water of life” in Rev.

“water of life” – cp. John 7 vs. 37 – 39. Represents the spirit teaching of Christ cp. John 4 vs. 14, 6 vs. 63. Water is a type of doctrine – Deut 32 vs. 2. As a result of this teaching “for the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea” (Hab 2 vs. 14).

Water in scripture has two meanings that for me stand out over the others, spirit and peoples, I would think that the River is the on going presence and action of the spirit of Yahweh, the fountain of life.

Quote

“proceeding out of the throne...” – this language is picked up from Ezekiel 47. Revelation is teaching us the moral principle behind the literal river of the Temple.

“tree of life” – principle of many in one. Greek word xulon is a singular word but must be plural as it’s on both sides of river. The translators have applied this word plurally in Matt 26 vs. 47 etc. Two words for tree in Rev – the other is dendron found in 7 vs. 1, 3, 8 vs. 7, 9 vs. 4. Tree represents Christ for he is “the life” (John 14 vs. 6) and his brethren in one. It is an immortal tree/wood – Rev 2 vs. 27.

This is not a bad understanding, but it would make some here to have to rethink what the tree was in the garden as well.

Quote

“leaves of the tree” – leaves are representative of men – Job 13 vs. 24 – 25, Isaiah 64 vs. 6. Leaf with fruit is notable – contrast teaching of Christ to Israel (same word) “And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only” (Matt 21 vs. 19). Leaves are pictures of individual saints. Jeremiah 17 vs. 7 – 8 depicts Christ (and by implication, the Christ body) with green leaves. The leaves of a tree do the breathing, as the spirit word will be breathed out through the saints to heal the nations. Isaiah 30 vs. 15.

“healing of the nations” – the language is again picked up from Eze 47 vs. 12. The saints will attend to the moral health of the nations.

This sounds close to me, but I would see it as the people being the branches and Messiah being the root, and the leaves our covering, and the fruit being our works in the spirit.

Quote

Verse 3 – 4
Speaking now after thousand years.

“no more curse” – curse of sin and death.

Yes, for those that willingly follow there is no more curse, but you are breaking up verse 1 and 2 from 3 and 4, yet in reading them it would seem they do go together and are one thought.

I look forward to hearing from you May Yahweh bless.

[composer]

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 24 2009, 04:02 PM, said:

Your going on the assumption that he was not told, this leads me to the assumption that you feel the serpent was an actual serpent.

The Text does not provide knowledge as to whether the Serpent Creature was told or not, just that it knew of the warning to Adam. (Gen. 3: 1) KJV

Fallen heavenly angel spirit beings do not literally exist so yes it was an actual Serpent Creature that spoke of its own ability.

Adam named all the animals (Gen. 2:19) KJV so when the Serpent Creature literally spoke to Eve, there is no indication that she was concerned or alarmed by it speaking; which indicates to me she knew it could by itself. (Plus the existence of literal fallen spirit angel beings is fanciful pagan mythology and unsupported by Scripture (See next).)

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 24 2009, 04:02 PM, said:

Scripture says the serpent was more crafty then the others of creation, but does not state when or where the serpent was created, Gen. opens with In a beginning, not in the beginning, it's our beginning, but not necessarily the beginning of the serpent, and we know that the Dragon of Revelation is that serpent of old.

For several reasons we know that the dragon of Revelation is NOT the same identity as the Serpent Creature of Eden.

1. The Serpent of Eden is claimed to have been ' used ' by the dragon = the old serpent = the Devil = The Satan of Rev. 12: 9 KJV therefore it can not be the Satan of Eden because it is claimed it was only ' used by it ' (because it is claimed the Serpent of Eden could not speak of itself)

2. Rev. 1: 1 informs us that ALL the EVENTS of the Book of Revelation are FUTURE (shortly come to pass)

Considering the contents of events of the Book of Revelation was not even recorded by John until AD 96 (approx.) ALL EVENTS could not ' shortly come to pass ' until AFTER AD 96. (approx.)

Therefore these ' fallen angels ' did not ' fall ' until AFTER AD 96 (approx.)

So the first question is " Where did your alleged fallen angels (including your alleged Satan that sinned in Eden) come from? "

3. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: . . . . (Rev. 12: 9) KJV

The alleged Satan that ' used ' the Serpent in Eden was also a failure and does not correspond to the Satan that ' deceived the whole world ' referred to in Rev. 12: 9 KJV, because this alleged Satan couldn't even deceive the whole world when it consisted of just two (Adam & Eve) because Adam was NOT deceived by this alleged Satan (1 Tim. 2:14) KJV

Thanks

Edited by composer, 24 April 2009 - 09:55 PM.

[Hawleyluyah]

composer, on Apr 24 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 24 2009, 04:02 PM, said:

Your going on the assumption that he was not told, this leads me to the assumption that you feel the serpent was an actual serpent.

The Text does not provide knowledge as to whether the Serpent Creature was told or not, just that it knew of the warning to Adam. (Gen. 3: 1) KJV

Fallen heavenly angel spirit beings do not literally exist so yes it was an actual Serpent Creature that spoke of its own ability.

I'm sorry but in this thread or any other here, I have not seen proof of this claim, so for now I must over look this answer.

Quote

Adam named all the animals (Gen. 2:19) KJV so when the Serpent Creature literally spoke to Eve, there is no indication that she was concerned or alarmed by it speaking; which indicates to me she knew it could by itself. (Plus the existence of literal fallen spirit angel beings is fanciful pagan mythology and unsupported by Scripture

Yes there is scriptural support for fallen angels, also known as demons and spirits, here are but a few.

Mat 4:24 And news about Him went out into all Syria. And they brought to Him all who were sick, afflicted with various diseases and pains, and those who were demon-possessed, and epileptics, and paralytics. And He healed them.

Mat 8:16 And when evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,
Mat 8:28 And when He came to the other side, to the country of the Girgashites, two demon-possessed ones met Him, coming out of the tombs, very fierce, so that no one was able to pass that way.
Mat 8:29 And see, they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, יהושע, Son of Elohim? Have You come here to torture us, before the appointed time?”
Mat 8:30 And at a distance from them there was a herd of many pigs feeding,
Mat 8:31 and the demons begged Him, saying, “If You cast us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”
Mat 8:32 And He said to them, “Go.” And they, coming out, went into the herd of pigs. And see, the entire herd of pigs rushed down the steep place into the sea, and died in the water.
Mat 8:33 And the herdsmen fled, and went away into the city and reported all th

Mat 9:32 And as they were going out, see, they brought to Him a man, dumb and demon-possessed.
Mat 9:33 And when the demon was cast out, the dumb one spoke. And the crowds marvelled, saying, “It was never seen like this in Yisraʼĕl!”
Mat 9:34 But the Pharisees said, “He casts out demons by the ruler of the demons.”

Mat 10:8 “Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. You have received without paying, give without being paid.

Mat 12:22 Then they brought to Him one who was demon-possessed, blind and dumb. And He healed him, so that the blind and dumb man both spoke and saw.
Mat 12:23 And all the crowds were amazed and said, “Is this the Son of Dawiḏ?”
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This one does not cast out demons except by Beʽelzebul, the ruler of the demons.”
Mat 12:25 And יהושע knew their thoughts, and said to them, “Every reign divided against itself is laid waste, and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.
Mat 12:26 “And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then does his reign stand?
Mat 12:27 “And if I, by Beʽelzebul, do cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Because of this they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of Elohim, then the reign of Elohim has come upon you.

Mat 17:18 And יהושע rebuked the demon, and he came out of him. And the child was healed from that hour.
Mat 17:19 Then the taught ones came to יהושע by Himself and said, “Why were we unable to cast him out?”
Mat 17:20 And יהושע said to them, “Because of your unbelief, for truly, I say to you, if you have belief as a mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,ʼ and it shall move. And no matter shall be impossible for you.
Mat 17:21 “But this kind does not go out except through prayer and fasting.”

Mar 1:32 And when evening came, when the sun had set, they brought to Him all who were sick and those who were demon-possessed.

Mar 1:34 And He healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons, and was not allowing the demons to speak, because they knew Him.

Mar 3:14 And He appointed twelve to be with Him, and to be sent out to proclaim,
Mar 3:15 and to possess authority to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons.

Mar 3:22 And the scribes who came down from Yerushalayim said, “He has Beʽelzebul,” and, “He casts out demons by the ruler of the demons.”
Mar 3:23 And calling them near He said to them in parables, “How is Satan able to cast out Satan?
Mar 3:24 “And if a reign is divided against itself, that reign is unable to stand.
Mar 3:25 “And if a house is divided against itself, that house is unable to stand.
Mar 3:26 “And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he is unable to stand, but has an end.

Luk 4:33 And in the congregation was a man having a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice,
Luk 4:34 saying, “Ha! What have we to do with You, יהושע of Natsareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know You, who You are, the Set-apart One of Elohim!”
Luk 4:35 And יהושע rebuked him, saying, “Be silenced, and come out of him!” And when the demon had thrown him in their midst, it came out of him without hurting him.

Act 16:16 And as we went to prayer, it happened that a certain girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much gain by divining.

Act 19:11 And Elohim worked unusual miracles through the hands of Shaʼul,
Act 19:12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the wicked spirits went out of them.
Act 19:13 But certain roving Yehuḏite exorcists took it upon themselves to call the Name of the Master יהושע over those who had wicked spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by יהושע whom Shaʼul proclaims.”
Act 19:14 And there were seven sons of a certain Skeua, a Yehuḏite chief priest, who were doing this.
Act 19:15 And the wicked spirit answering, said, “יהושע I know, and Shaʼul I know, but who are you?”
Act 19:16 And the man in whom the wicked spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit distinctly says that in latter times some shall fall away from the belief, paying attention to misleading spirits, and teachings of demons,

Jas 2:19 You believe that Elohim is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder!

Rev 12:7 And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels warred,
Rev 12:8 but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 16:13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, as frogs,
Rev 16:14 for they are spirits of demons, doing signs, which go out to the sovereigns of the entire world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of יהוה the Almighty.

Now let's weigh your logic.
El was the name of a pagan false god, so does that now mean that El does not belong in scripture, think about the implications in just that one fact alone, and then consider the many other acceptable things in scripture that can also be found in pagan mythologies.
One might consider that most pagan ideas came from the truth before the fall, but when the languages were formed so was confusion, and they took with them a twisted shadow of the truth.

Now let look at the punishment of the serpent.
Gen 3:14 And יהוה Elohim said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all livestock and more than every beast of the field. On your belly you are to go, and eat dust all the days of your life.
Gen 3:15 “And I put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed1. He shall crush your head, and you shall crush His heel.”

I see nothing here about no longer speaking, and I have yet to see a talking snake.

Quote

(See next).)

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 24 2009, 04:02 PM, said:

Scripture says the serpent was more crafty then the others of creation, but does not state when or where the serpent was created, Gen. opens with In a beginning, not in the beginning, it's our beginning, but not necessarily the beginning of the serpent, and we know that the Dragon of Revelation is that serpent of old.

For several reasons we know that the dragon of Revelation is NOT the same identity as the Serpent Creature of Eden.

1. The Serpent of Eden is claimed to have been ' used ' by the dragon = the old serpent = the Devil = The Satan of Rev. 12: 9 KJV therefore it can not be the Satan of Eden because it is claimed it was only ' used by it ' (because it is claimed the Serpent of Eden could not speak of itself)

This was not my claim I said the serpent of Eden "was" the dragon , that serpent of old, the Devil, Satan. Therefore, I see no sound reasoning to suggest that the dragon of Revelation isn't the same identity as the Serpent Creature at Eden as scripture says.

Quote

2. Rev. 1: 1 informs us that ALL the EVENTS of the Book of Revelation are FUTURE (shortly come to pass)

Considering the contents of events of the Book of Revelation was not even recorded by John until AD 96 (approx.) ALL EVENTS could not ' shortly come to pass ' until AFTER AD 96. (approx.)

Therefore these ' fallen angels ' did not ' fall ' until AFTER AD 96 (approx.)

So the first question is " Where did your alleged fallen angels (including your alleged Satan that sinned in Eden) come from? "

Rev. 1: 1 shows us the things that will came to pass, but that does not mean that they were not started already in the past, it makes no claim that all thing are future events.
For instance
Rev 12:5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
Messiah did not come in AD 96, so I cannot see substance in this claim either.

Quote

3. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: . . . . (Rev. 12: 9) KJV

The alleged Satan that ' used ' the Serpent in Eden was also a failure and does not correspond to the Satan that ' deceived the whole world ' referred to in Rev. 12: 9 KJV, because this alleged Satan couldn't even deceive the whole world when it consisted of just two (Adam & Eve) because Adam was NOT deceived by this alleged Satan (1 Tim. 2:14) KJV

The point of 1 Tim. 2:14 is to say not to let a women teach a man for the man was not deceived by the serpent, but was deceived by the woman, none the less Satan's goal was met, the whole world was deceived.
So point three also falls short.

Thank you for your time and consideration.
May Yahweh bless.

Edited by Hawleyluyah, 25 April 2009 - 01:44 PM.

[composer]

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 25 2009, 04:38 AM, said:

Yes there is scriptural support for fallen angels, also known as demons and spirits, here are but a few.

Mat 4:24 And news about Him went out into all Syria. And they brought to Him all who were sick, afflicted with various diseases and pains, and those who were demon-possessed, and epileptics, and paralytics. And He healed them.

Mat 8:16 And when evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,
Mat 8:28 And when He came to the other side, to the country of the Girgashites, two demon-possessed ones met Him, coming out of the tombs, very fierce, so that no one was able to pass that way.
Mat 8:29 And see, they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, יהושע, Son of Elohim? Have You come here to torture us, before the appointed time?”
Mat 8:30 And at a distance from them there was a herd of many pigs feeding,
Mat 8:31 and the demons begged Him, saying, “If You cast us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”
Mat 8:32 And He said to them, “Go.” And they, coming out, went into the herd of pigs. And see, the entire herd of pigs rushed down the steep place into the sea, and died in the water.
Mat 8:33 And the herdsmen fled, and went away into the city and reported all th

Ok let us start to examine the quotes you gave -

Jesus and his disciples crossed from Galilee in Palestine to Gadara in Syria, which was on the other side of the Sea of Galilee. At the landing place they were met by two lunatics that came out of the cemetery. In the east, insane asylums are unknown. Crazy men roam about and live in cemeteries which are located at short distance from the town. . .

These crazy men saw a boat crossing from Galilee and when Jesus and his disciples disembarked they [the crazy men] immediately recognised a Jewish prophet. They had probably heard of Jesus and of his miraculous works as Gadara is separated from Galilee by only a few miles of water, so no doubt, the lunatics knew Jesus and his disciples. Also, in the east, when a man is accompanied by twelve men, he is either a religious teacher or a high official.

The Aramaic word al means attack and it also means enter. Men enter into each other when they wrestle or fight, and oxen enter into each other when they attack or chase each other. Assyrians say la al beh which literally means do not enter into him, that is, do not attack or bother him. These men were afflicted with insanity. In the east, when a man is insane it is said he is under the influence of the devil, and when he speaks, the devil speaks in him. It is often said, "He has turned into a devil", meaning, he has be come violent with insanity. We read that Satan entered into Judas but it was Judas and not Satan who bargained with the chief priests to betray Jesus (Luke 22:3 - 4) KJV In this case, the lunatics conversed with Jesus and not the devils who were supposed to be in them. The devils would not have asked permission to enter into swine and be drowned in the sea, for they had entered into men without permission. (My bold)
These crazy men were Syrians whose people kept large swine herds which were an abomination to the Jews. As proof of their conversion to the Jewish faith and in appreciation for what Jesus had done for them, they wanted to destroy the swine. They realised Jesus was a great prophet and the Jewish God had more power than the Syrian gods whose prophets could not heal them. it is so today in the east. When people are converted to a different faith, they discontinue the practices considered unclean by the new faith. A Christian cannot become a Mohammedan and be admitted into fellowship unless he sells or kills his swine and repudiates all customs and practices which the Mohammedan faith declares unclean. . .

When the Gadarenes saw the lunatics were healed and had become converts to the Jewish faith and already some of the swine had been drowned, they were panic-stricken. They decided not to allow Jesus to preach in Gadara fearing his mission would result in many conversions which would destroy the swine business. . .

George M. Lamsa. Gospel Light (San Francisco: Harper & Row), pp. 64 - 66.

Yes I know I am quoting a man but he spoke the same language of Christ (Aramaic) and other Eastern languages also.

There is much more to say if needed as this is one of my favourite alleged fallen heavenly angel spirit being = demon quotes used by my adversaries.

One simple question I would ask of you, why did your jesus agree to trying to put spirits into swine and then try to drown spirit beings. I thought their fate was a Lake of literal Fire? (Matt. 25:41) KJV

You typically start from a false premise i.e. fallen heavenly angel spirit beings (some turned to demons) literally exist therefore that is what the quotes must be referring to?

Logically you should try to FIRST demonstrate your fundamental criteria is bona fide? (Which it isn't) but you are welcome to try?

Thanks

Edited by composer, 26 April 2009 - 09:35 AM.

[nsr]

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 25 2009, 04:38 AM, said:

Yes there is scriptural support for fallen angels, also known as demons and spirits, here are but a few.

Mat 4:24 And news about Him went out into all Syria. And they brought to Him all who were sick, afflicted with various diseases and pains, and those who were demon-possessed, and epileptics, and paralytics. And He healed them.

All this proves is that the word "demon" is in the Bible. It doesn't prove it has anything to do with fallen angels. Hint: the word "demon" meant something different in the 1st century from the meaning it has now.

Quote

Mat 8:16-33

Dittto.

Quote

Mat 9:32 -34

Ditto. Note also it's the Pharisees who introduce the idea of "the ruler of demons".

Quote

Mat 10:8

Ditto.

Quote

Mat 12:22 -28

Ditto regarding demons. Regarding Satan, I've already explained it's a Hebrew word meaning "adversary". Regarding Beelzebub, that's the name of an ancient god worshipped by the Philistines in Ekron.

Quote

A bunch of other passages using "demon", "Satan", "Beelzebub"

Ditto.

Quote

Act 16:16 And as we went to prayer, it happened that a certain girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much gain by divining.

So what's a spirit of divination? You have to work out what these things actually mean rather than just associating them with a pre-conceived idea.

Quote

Act 19:11 - 16

So what's an evil/wicked spirit? You have to work out what these things actually mean rather than just associating them with a pre-conceived idea.

Quote

1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit distinctly says that in latter times some shall fall away from the belief, paying attention to misleading spirits, and teachings of demons,

Ditto regarding demons. Can you give an example of a "teaching of demons"?

Quote

Jas 2:19 You believe that Elohim is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder!

Ditto regarding demons.

Quote

Rev 12:7 And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels warred,
Rev 12:8 but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation is a symbolic book which should not be taken literally and should not be used to prove doctrine, especially by someone who lacks a correct understanding of some of the most basic Biblical first principles.

Quote

Rev 16:13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, as frogs,
Rev 16:14 for they are spirits of demons, doing signs, which go out to the sovereigns of the entire world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of יהוה the Almighty.

Ditto.

So, we see that all you've provided are passages where words such as "demon", "Satan", "Beelzebub", "evil spirit" are found. You haven't explained what these words actually mean in the context they were originally written. We're not interested in what a modern apostate church thinks they mean. We want to know what they meant to the people who originally experienced those events and wrote those words.

It's also very easy to prove that angels can't sin. Sin leads to death, and angels can't die. When Christ returns and immortalises his chosen followers, we are told they will be "like the angels". If they were still capable of sinning at that point, it would totally destroy the entire point. Sin happens as a result of human nature. Angels don't have human nature. When Christ died on the cross, he won the ultimate victory over human nature. He was raised to immortality and is no longer subject to it. To suggest that angels are capable of sinning, and that man's struggle with evil on earth is no more than a mirror image of a similar battle in heaven, demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the most basic Biblical teachings about human nature, the origin of sin, the plan and purpose of God, etc.

[composer]

For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed [with them]: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. (Acts 8: 7) KJV

"Unclean spirits", is an Aramaic term used to describe lunatics. The Eastern text reads: "Many who were mentally afflicted, cried with loud voices and were restored." The Aramaic word Akhidan -way means possessed with insanity or the power of the devil.

In olden days medical terms and the causes of diseases were unknown. Most illness, especially insanity, was attributed to evil spirits or demons. The Aramaic text refers to sick men and women, some mentally afflicted and others paralytic or lame, who were healed by the apostle Philip. It was these who cried with loud voices and gave thanks, and not the evil spirits. . . (My Bold)

George M. Lamsa New Testament Light (Philadelphia: A. J.Holman, 1945), pp. 57- 58.

[jon]

dayshakiwi, on Apr 24 2009, 12:22 PM, said:

steveyb3, on Apr 24 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

One of these ridiculous hypothetical scenarios now: what if they never sinned and just lived out until they died of old age?

My understanding of this is that they would not have aged at all before the fall.
Their bodies were as fresh as the day that God created them.
None of the entropic processes of 'dying thou shalt die' had taken place yet.

And then they sinned.

Once they'd sinned and God had pronounced the sentence of death upon them, the aging process was set in motion, leading to their enevitable death (from old age, accident or misadventure - whichever comes first.)

Therefore, if they'd not have sinned, they would not have experienced the gradual decline into old age (that the writer of Ecclesiates describes ) that most of us have to put up with.

If they had not have sinned, their bodies would remain as fresh as a daisy, indefinitely, in an environment that did not 'groan and travail'.

Nice idea, but at the end of the day this is pure speculation. The Bible doesn't teach it, science is opposed to it, there is no evidence to support it and no way of testing it.

[daysha]

I guess then that there's no point bothering much about it. I'm happy to just stay with the parts that the Bible tells us plainly and not speculate on the things it's silent about. God has told us about our Saviour, the Lord Jesus the Christ, and enough about all the things that we need to know for our salvation.
Speculation is fun though. It appeals to my overactive imagination plus my interest in science and history.

[Hawleyluyah]

composer, on Apr 25 2009, 10:17 PM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 25 2009, 04:38 AM, said:

Yes there is scriptural support for fallen angels, also known as demons and spirits, here are but a few.

Mat 4:24 And news about Him went out into all Syria. And they brought to Him all who were sick, afflicted with various diseases and pains, and those who were demon-possessed, and epileptics, and paralytics. And He healed them.

Mat 8:16 And when evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,
Mat 8:28 And when He came to the other side, to the country of the Girgashites, two demon-possessed ones met Him, coming out of the tombs, very fierce, so that no one was able to pass that way.
Mat 8:29 And see, they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, יהושע, Son of Elohim? Have You come here to torture us, before the appointed time?”
Mat 8:30 And at a distance from them there was a herd of many pigs feeding,
Mat 8:31 and the demons begged Him, saying, “If You cast us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”
Mat 8:32 And He said to them, “Go.” And they, coming out, went into the herd of pigs. And see, the entire herd of pigs rushed down the steep place into the sea, and died in the water.
Mat 8:33 And the herdsmen fled, and went away into the city and reported all th

Ok let us start to examine the quotes you gave -

Jesus and his disciples crossed from Galilee in Palestine to Gadara in Syria, which was on the other side of the Sea of Galilee. At the landing place they were met by two lunatics that came out of the cemetery. In the east, insane asylums are unknown. Crazy men roam about and live in cemeteries which are located at short distance from the town. . .

These crazy men saw a boat crossing from Galilee and when Jesus and his disciples disembarked they [the crazy men] immediately recognised a Jewish prophet. They had probably heard of Jesus and of his miraculous works as Gadara is separated from Galilee by only a few miles of water, so no doubt, the lunatics knew Jesus and his disciples. Also, in the east, when a man is accompanied by twelve men, he is either a religious teacher or a high official.

The Aramaic word al means attack and it also means enter. Men enter into each other when they wrestle or fight, and oxen enter into each other when they attack or chase each other. Assyrians say la al beh which literally means do not enter into him, that is, do not attack or bother him. These men were afflicted with insanity. In the east, when a man is insane it is said he is under the influence of the devil, and when he speaks, the devil speaks in him. It is often said, "He has turned into a devil", meaning, he has be come violent with insanity. We read that Satan entered into Judas but it was Judas and not Satan who bargained with the chief priests to betray Jesus (Luke 22:3 - 4) KJV In this case, the lunatics conversed with Jesus and not the devils who were supposed to be in them. The devils would not have asked permission to enter into swine and be drowned in the sea, for they had entered into men without permission. (My bold)
These crazy men were Syrians whose people kept large swine herds which were an abomination to the Jews. As proof of their conversion to the Jewish faith and in appreciation for what Jesus had done for them, they wanted to destroy the swine. They realised Jesus was a great prophet and the Jewish God had more power than the Syrian gods whose prophets could not heal them. it is so today in the east. When people are converted to a different faith, they discontinue the practices considered unclean by the new faith. A Christian cannot become a Mohammedan and be admitted into fellowship unless he sells or kills his swine and repudiates all customs and practices which the Mohammedan faith declares unclean. . .

When the Gadarenes saw the lunatics were healed and had become converts to the Jewish faith and already some of the swine had been drowned, they were panic-stricken. They decided not to allow Jesus to preach in Gadara fearing his mission would result in many conversions which would destroy the swine business. . .

George M. Lamsa. Gospel Light (San Francisco: Harper & Row), pp. 64 - 66.

Yes I know I am quoting a man but he spoke the same language of Christ (Aramaic) and other Eastern languages also.

There is much more to say if needed as this is one of my favourite alleged fallen heavenly angel spirit being = demon quotes used by my adversaries.

One simple question I would ask of you, why did your jesus agree to trying to put spirits into swine and then try to drown spirit beings. I thought their fate was a Lake of literal Fire? (Matt. 25:41) KJV

You typically start from a false premise i.e. fallen heavenly angel spirit beings (some turned to demons) literally exist therefore that is what the quotes must be referring to?

Logically you should try to FIRST demonstrate your fundamental criteria is bona fide? (Which it isn't) but you are welcome to try?

Thanks

nsr, on Apr 26 2009, 03:31 AM, said:

Hawleyluyah, on Apr 25 2009, 04:38 AM, said:

Yes there is scriptural support for fallen angels, also known as demons and spirits, here are but a few.

Mat 4:24 And news about Him went out into all Syria. And they brought to Him all who were sick, afflicted with various diseases and pains, and those who were demon-possessed, and epileptics, and paralytics. And He healed them.

All this proves is that the word "demon" is in the Bible. It doesn't prove it has anything to do with fallen angels. Hint: the word "demon" meant something different in the 1st century from the meaning it has now.

Quote

Mat 8:16-33

Dittto.

Quote

Mat 9:32 -34

Ditto. Note also it's the Pharisees who introduce the idea of "the ruler of demons".

Quote

Mat 10:8

Ditto.

Quote

Mat 12:22 -28

Ditto regarding demons. Regarding Satan, I've already explained it's a Hebrew word meaning "adversary". Regarding Beelzebub, that's the name of an ancient god worshipped by the Philistines in Ekron.

Quote

A bunch of other passages using "demon", "Satan", "Beelzebub"

Ditto.

Quote

Act 16:16 And as we went to prayer, it happened that a certain girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much gain by divining.

So what's a spirit of divination? You have to work out what these things actually mean rather than just associating them with a pre-conceived idea.

Quote

Act 19:11 - 16

So what's an evil/wicked spirit? You have to work out what these things actually mean rather than just associating them with a pre-conceived idea.

Quote

1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit distinctly says that in latter times some shall fall away from the belief, paying attention to misleading spirits, and teachings of demons,

Ditto regarding demons. Can you give an example of a "teaching of demons"?

Quote

Jas 2:19 You believe that Elohim is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder!

Ditto regarding demons.

Quote

Rev 12:7 And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels warred,
Rev 12:8 but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation is a symbolic book which should not be taken literally and should not be used to prove doctrine, especially by someone who lacks a correct understanding of some of the most basic Biblical first principles.

Quote

Rev 16:13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, as frogs,
Rev 16:14 for they are spirits of demons, doing signs, which go out to the sovereigns of the entire world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of יהוה the Almighty.

Ditto.

So, we see that all you've provided are passages where words such as "demon", "Satan", "Beelzebub", "evil spirit" are found. You haven't explained what these words actually mean in the context they were originally written. We're not interested in what a modern apostate church thinks they mean. We want to know what they meant to the people who originally experienced those events and wrote those words.

It's also very easy to prove that angels can't sin. Sin leads to death, and angels can't die. When Christ returns and immortalises his chosen followers, we are told they will be "like the angels". If they were still capable of sinning at that point, it would totally destroy the entire point. Sin happens as a result of human nature. Angels don't have human nature. When Christ died on the cross, he won the ultimate victory over human nature. He was raised to immortality and is no longer subject to it. To suggest that angels are capable of sinning, and that man's struggle with evil on earth is no more than a mirror image of a similar battle in heaven, demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the most basic Biblical teachings about human nature, the origin of sin, the plan and purpose of God, etc.

composer, on Apr 26 2009, 04:40 AM, said:

For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed [with them]: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. (Acts 8: 7) KJV

"Unclean spirits", is an Aramaic term used to describe lunatics. The Eastern text reads: "Many who were mentally afflicted, cried with loud voices and were restored." The Aramaic word Akhidan -way means possessed with insanity or the power of the devil.

In olden days medical terms and the causes of diseases were unknown. Most illness, especially insanity, was attributed to evil spirits or demons. The Aramaic text refers to sick men and women, some mentally afflicted and others paralytic or lame, who were healed by the apostle Philip. It was these who cried with loud voices and gave thanks, and not the evil spirits. . . (My Bold)

George M. Lamsa New Testament Light (Philadelphia: A. J.Holman, 1945), pp. 57- 58.

Let's look at what has taken place here.
I was told that there was no support for fallen angels in scripture, now I listed many verses to show that there is evidence.
Now I would have only needed to list one occurrence in scripture to show that there is scriptural support for fallen Angels.
So me listing the following

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, there was a great dragon of fire, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail cut off a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth; and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered, so as to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a male child, who was to shepherd all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand and two hundred and three score days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
Rev 12:8 But did not prevail; neither was their place found any longer in heaven.
Rev 12:9 Thus the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world: he was cast out on the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This alone makes my case, you have Angels against Angels, fighting in Heaven, and some cast out never to return.
and they are lead by the dragon that is THAT OLD SERPENT called THE DEVIL and, SATAN, not THE SATAN.
The second thing that happened was the supposed trusted text was abandoned, and we switched to the eastern Peshitta text to try and disarm my argument.
But please know I will defend my view from this text as well, in fact you may have noticed that the above is from that text, and still makes my case as also does most of the other scripture I posted, if pulled from this text

Now getting back to the argument that demons would not need to ask.
I would ask you, on what grounds would a demon not need to ask, when under the direction of the Messiah who is titled the son of Elohim and was given all authority?
Then I would point out that they asked, but received no answer, and could have took it upon themselves to inter the swine, and due to this, Messiah drove the swine into the sea, killing the swine, and forcing the spirits to remain only in spirit, simply put it is open to interpretation.
But if you like I will make my argument from the eastern text only, and give you this one.
Just let me know.
May Yahweh bless.

Edited by Hawleyluyah, 26 April 2009 - 11:17 PM.