8 replies to this topic

[janice]

Hi all. Don't know if this should be here or in questions section so feel free to move.
Background - my sister is doing illustrations for some Sunday school notes. In 2 kings 1: 8 there is a description of Elijah which the King of Israel instantly recognized.
In the majority of translations I have Elijah is described as a hairy man but in GNT, NIV and RSV he is wearing a coat of hair or haircloth.
Some people think the link between John the Baptist and Elijah is strengthened by both wearing haircloth and thus it could be an important point.
I recognize it is not an essential salvation issue but as anyone who has done illustrating for Christadelphians knows people are very quick at pointing out what they see as Biblical inaccuracies so we want to get it right - without having to draw a superhairy Gorilla like man who also wears a haircoat.
I do find it unusual even allowing for the fact most people of the time only had one coat that a haircloth coat and leather girdle would cause instant recognition.

[Evangelion]

NET Bible says:

[indent]
II Kings 1:6-8
They replied, "A man came up to meet us. He told us, "Go back to the king who sent you and tell him, 'This is what the LORD says: "You must think there is no God in Israel! That explains why you are sending for an oracle from Baal Zebub, the god of Ekron. Therefore you will not leave the bed you lie on, for you will certainly die." ' "
The king asked them, "Describe the appearance of this man who came up to meet you and told you these things."
They replied, "He was a hairy man and had a leather belt tied around his waist." The king said, "He is Elijah the Tishbite."
[/indent]

Footnotes:

[indent]
Heb "an owner of hair." This idiomatic expression indicates that Elijah was very hairy. For other examples where the idiom "owner of" is used to describe a characteristic of someone, see HALOT 143 s.v. בַּעַל. For example, an "owner of dreams" is one who frequently has dreams (Gen_37:19) and an "owner of anger" is a hot-tempered individual (Pro_22:24).

Heb "belt of skin" (i.e., one made from animal hide).
[/indent]

So he was a very hairy man with a leather belt.

[janice]

So why do some commentators say the passage in Zechariah where he says the prophets won't wear the mantle to a hairy skin that Elijah wore? And some feel that there was a mantle for Elisha to want indicates it was an identifying feature of Elisha.
I have found the more I research it the more confused I get.
The literal translation of Lord of hair ( such a nice contrast to the Lord of flies) I feel is vague and could be either. I suppose we will have to have Elijah with long hair ( to contrast with Elisha's bald head) and wearing rough cloth.

[Evangelion]

janice, on Apr 20 2009, 04:25 AM, said:

So why do some commentators say the passage in Zechariah where he says the prophets won't wear the mantle to a hairy skin that Elijah wore? And some feel that there was a mantle for Elisha to want indicates it was an identifying feature of Elisha.

If you give me the reference, I'll have a rummage around and see what the NET says.

[Kay]

Janice, and in comparison with John the Baptist, it may be a reference to sack cloth and ashes ... also the comparision with Elisha who was bald, as shaven - just some comments from Bible Dictionaries, trust it makes sense (in the matter of then Elisha being bald and Elijah's garments and hair, (Nazarite?) and then shaven, Elisha) because it was calling Israel to repentance:

John the Baptist would have also called Israel to repent in 'sack-cloth' ... ?

Matthew 3:1 "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins."

and also referenced in context to Matthew 11 about John, repentance, sackcloth and ashes.

It always seems that something like "sackcloth" would be made from what we would regard as normal material, say cotton or something similar... and therefore not something made from goat or camel hair:

Harpers Bible Dictionary

Quote

sackcloth, a dark-colored material of goat or camel hair used for making grain bags and garments. English ‘sack’ is derived from the Hebrew saq, via Latin saccus and Greek sakkos. Joseph’s brothers carried their money and their grain in sacks (Gen. 42:25), and the men of Gibeon met Joshua with worn-out sacks upon their sack animals (Josh. 9:4). A garment of sackcloth was uncomfortable and was therefore worn by those in mourning. Jacob ‘put sackcloth upon his loins’ when mourning for Joseph (Gen. 37:34). When national calamity threatened the destruction of the Jewish people in the book of Esther, the Jews lay in sackcloth and ashes, fasting, weeping, and lamenting (Esther 4:3). This material must have been inexpensive or of poor quality for ‘no one might enter the king’s gate clothed with sackcloth’ (Esther 4:1-3). The use of sackcloth continued for a very long time as it is still mentioned in 1 Macc. 2:14, 3:47 and in the nt (Matt. 11:21) as a sign of distress and repentance. See also Mourning Rites (See below). nt New Testament

Achtemeier, Paul J. ; Harper & Row, Publishers ; Society of Biblical Literature: Harper's Bible Dictionary. 1st ed. San Francisco : Harper & Row, 1985, S. 890

Quote

ashes, what is left after a fire, similar in appearance to dust, with which they are often mentioned. Ashes signify destruction (Ezek. 28:18; Mal. 4:3; Heb. 3:21; 2 Pet. 2:6) and are contrasted with glory (Isa. 61:3). Sitting on them or putting them on one’s head were rituals of mourning and repentance (2 Sam. 13:19; Isa. 58:5; Jer. 6:26). Ashes are also mentioned as symbolic of insignificance (Gen. 18:27)

Achtemeier, Paul J. ; Harper & Row, Publishers ; Society of Biblical Literature: Harper's Bible Dictionary. 1st ed. San Francisco : Harper & Row, 1985, S. 75

Then some, 'glorying' in their 'sackcloth and ashes' (see Isaiah 58, especially verse 5)

Very different to the clothing which will be worn as described in Revelation 19:

5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying:
"Praise our God,
all you his servants,
you who fear him,
both small and great!"

6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:
"Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Quote

mourning rites, the rituals practiced upon the death of a relative or national figure or in times of national crisis. Death was acknowledged by rending the clothes and dressing in sackcloth. These practices were followed by Jacob when he was presented with the bloody coat of his son Joseph (Gen. 37:34). When Job was informed of the death of his children, he ‘rent his robe, shaved his head, and fell upon the ground, and worshiped’ (Job 1:20), and his friends wept, rent their robes, sprinkled dust upon their heads, and sat on the ground with him for seven days and seven nights (Job 2:12-13; cf. 2 Sam. 13:31). In Micah we find mention of lamentations while naked (1:8) and the cutting off of one’s hair (1:16; cf. Ezek. 27:30-31). Jeremiah expects the mourners to make themselves bald and cut themselves (Jer. 16:16), while Leviticus specifically prohibits shaving, cutting the hair, tattooing, or the making of gashes in the skin on account of the dead (Lev. 19:27-28).

Ezekiel was commanded by God not to mourn the death of his wife. ‘Bind on your turban, and put your shoes on your feet; do not cover your lips, nor eat the bread of mourners’ (Ezek. 24:17). A contrast between times of mourning and times of joy (Isa. 61:3) enumerates the wearing of ashes and the abstention from anointing oil as signs of mourning. Further, no ornaments were to be worn (Exod. 33:4). Friends of the mourner sat in grief with him (Job 2:12-13) and gave him a meal of bread and wine to console him (Jer. 16:7). Formal lamentations or elegies (Heb. kinot) were recited, as at the death of Josiah when ‘singing men and singing women’ performed as professional mourners (2 Chron. 35:25).

Mourning rites are also attested in the Bible in times of national calamity. After the defeat of Ai, Joshua rent his clothes and put dust upon his head (Josh. 7:6) as did Mordecai when he received the news that Haman was planning to exterminate the Jewish people (Esther 4:1-3). In addition, Mordecai went out into the city ‘wailing with a loud and bitter cry,’ and the Jews of the city fasted as well. Psalms 74, 79, and the book of Lamentations are elegies (Heb. kinot) for the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Various mourning periods are specified in the narratives ranging from seven days (Gen. 50:10), to three weeks (Dan. 10:2), to ‘many days’ (Gen. 37:34). Although a captive woman must mourn for a month (Deut. 21:13), a definite period of mourning is not commanded anywhere else in the Bible. The Talmud legislated several periods of mourning, each less intense than the previous one, to bring mourners gradually out of their grief lest they mourn excessively. The period of aninut lasted from the announcement of death until the burial. Mourners were forbidden to take meat or wine and to perform certain commandments, both as a sign of grief and as a way of giving full attention to the burial preparations. After the burial, the period of shiv‘ah lasted for seven days. Mourners rent their clothes, sat upon the ground, and did not labor, receiving condolences from the community. During the period of sheloshim, the first thirty days, mourners did not cut their hair or attend social or festive gatherings. The entire year following the death of a parent was marked by the abstention from joyous events.

There are no specific instructions for mourning in the nt, although the custom of communal mourning for the dead did continue (Mark 5:38; John 11:33). See also Sackcloth.

Heb. Hebrew

nt New Testament

Achtemeier, Paul J. ; Harper & Row, Publishers ; Society of Biblical Literature: Harper's Bible Dictionary. 1st ed. San Francisco : Harper & Row, 1985, S. 661

If you don't know where I am coming from, then let me know

[janice]

Sorry Kay I'm afraid it hasn't helped with the decision as to whether Elijah was a hairy man or wearing a hairy garment.

Evangelion Some of the reference I have looked at ( there's others but cover the same ground without a definitive answer).
from http://scripturetext...2_kings/1-8.htm

Quote

He was an hairy
se`ar (say-awr')
hair (as if tossed or bristling) -- hair(-y), rough.
man
ba`al (bah'-al)
a master; hence, a husband, or (figuratively) owner (often used with another noun in modifications of this latter sense) + married, master, person, + sworn, they of.
'iysh (eesh)
a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation)

Esau when born (and also the hairy scalp in Psalm 68:21 and Absalom's hair and Samson's hair but used in conjunction with head for these)

Quote

all over like an hairy
se`ar (say-awr')
hair (as if tossed or bristling) -- hair(-y), rough.

Jacob dressed up as Esau was described as his arms were hairy (also the hairy goat in Daniel 8:21)

Quote

were hairy
sa`iyr (saw-eer')
shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by analogy, a faun -- devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.

The Gospel of Matthew by John Nolland p139 ref 23

Quote

For " a strip of hide around his waist" the language is very close, but the Hebrew is ba'al se'ar ( lit. man lord of hair) is ambiguous. The reference could be to a hairy man ( so the LXX and NSRV) but is sa'ir is how this is expressed in Gn 27 :11 or it could be to a man clothed in a hairy garb (so RSV). The prominence accorded to Elijah's mantle ( 1 Kings 19:13, 19 ; 2: 8,13,14) suggests that a hair-cloth mantle may have been one of the two identifying features of Elijah ( the expression a 'hairy mantle' is found in Gn 25:25 and is used in Zc 13 :4 in reference to the distinctive garb of a prophet). A hair-cloth mantle makes a nice co-ordinated pair with the strip of hide which would have kept the garment in place."

This is a commentary on Matthew in this reference talking about John the Baptist. I think the Kings reference should be the second kings 1 v 8 but I have reproduced his reference as published. My feeling is just because it makes a nice pair doesn't prove anything.

2 Kings by Robert l.Cohn, David W. Cotter, Jerome T Walsh, Chris Franke p6 footnote 6 (discussing text of 2 kings 1:5-8)

Quote

The Hebrew formulation for "hairy man" ba'al se'ar is found only here, Both its sound and its literal translation, "lord of hair" suggest an ironic contrast with ba'al zebub ( "lord of the flies") in the previous verse: on the way to ba'al zebub, the god of Ekron, the messengers encounter ba'al se'ar, hairy Elijah instead.

I apologize for the last two quotes' presentation; I have had to type them and can't reproduce the correct accents etc.


Doing the lazy Googling there's also sermons etc which are poorly referenced and propose with no reasonable back up that among other things 1. Elijah must have had hair down to his waist. 2. The fact that a hairy mantle was not mentioned before Elijah proves he was the first to wear one. 3 The fact that John the Baptist wore a coat of hair proves that Elijah's hairiness was a coat.

With the Sunday School notes that are being written there has been a strong effort to not continue suppositions or re-tell things incorrectly especially by inaccurate drawings - it is difficult enough with young children to correct misapprehensions gained from Biblically based artworks without adding to them.

Edited by janice, 20 April 2009 - 12:54 PM.

[Kay]

Janice just going on historical of what the prophets wore, it would more seem to be the garments rather than the man, because he wouldn't just have a leather belt tied around his waist

As above

II Kings 1:6-8

"They replied, "A man came up to meet us. He told us, "Go back to the king who sent you and tell him, 'This is what the LORD says: "You must think there is no God in Israel! That explains why you are sending for an oracle from Baal Zebub, the god of Ekron. Therefore you will not leave the bed you lie on, for you will certainly die." ' "
The king asked them, "Describe the appearance of this man who came up to meet you and told you these things." They replied, "He was a hairy man and had a leather belt tied around his waist." The king said, "He is Elijah the Tishbite.""

Quote

1:5-8. The messengers returned to Ahaziah and reported their meeting with Elijah and his prophecy. Ahaziah knew who Elijah was, of course, since Elijah had consistently opposed his parents, Ahab and Jezebel, for their Baal worship. The hairy garment (probably made from goats’ dark hair) and large leather belt were part of the dress of prophets at that time. Cloth woven from hair, as rough as burlap, was sometimes called sackcloth. Since sackcloth symbolized distress or self-affliction (cf. 6:30; Gen. 37:34; 2 Sam. 3:31), Elijah’s garb probably visualized the repentance to which the prophets called the people (cf. penitence and sackcloth in Neh. 9:1; Jer. 6:26). Ahaziah recognized his messengers’ description of Elijah immediately.

Walvoord, John F. ; Zuck, Roy B. ; Dallas Theological Seminary: The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL : Victor Books, 1983-c1985, S. 1:538

However, prior to this, 1 Kings 22:7 says:

"And he said to them, What manner of man was he that came up to meet you, and told you these words? 8 And they said to him, He was a man in a hairy garment, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite."

Darby, John Nelson: The Holy Scriptures : A New Translation from the Original Languages. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1996, S. 2 Ki 1:6

Zechariah also speaks of hairy garments:

13:4 “Therefore, on that day each prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies and will no longer wear the hairy garment6 of a prophet to deceive the people.7

Biblical Studies Press: The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible. Biblical Studies Press, 2006; 2006, S. Zec 13:4

Quote

8. an hairy man—This was the description not of his person, as in the case of Esau, but of his dress, which consisted either of unwrought sheep or goatskins (Heb 11:37), or of camel’s haircloth—the coarser manufacture of this material like our rough haircloth. The Dervishes and Bedouins are attired in this wild, uncouth manner, while their hair flows loose on the head, their shaggy cloak is thrown over their shoulders and tied in front on the breast, naked, except at the waist, round which is a skin girdle—a broad, rough leathern belt. Similar to this was the girdle of the prophets, as in keeping with their coarse garments and their stern, uncompromising office.

Jamieson, Robert ; Fausset, A. R. ; Fausset, A. R. ; Brown, David ; Brown, David: A Commentary, Critical and Explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997, S. 2 Ki 1:8

Quote

He said that the false prophets were like wolves in sheep’s clothing. When the shepherd watched his flocks upon the hillside, his garment was a sheepskin, worn with the skin outside and the fleece inside. But a man might wear a shepherd’s dress and still not be a shepherd. The prophets had acquired a conventional dress. Elijah had a mantle (I Kings 19:13, 19), and that mantle had been a hairy cloak (2 Kings 1:8). That sheepskin mantle had become the uniform of the prophets, just as the Greek philosophers had worn the philosopher’s robe. It was by that mantle that the prophet could be distinguished from other men. But sometimes that garb was worn by those who had no right to wear it, for Zechariah in his picture of the great days to come says, “He will not put on a hairy mantle in order to deceive” (Zechariah 13:4). There were those who wore a prophet’s cloak, but who lived anything but a prophet’s life.

Barclay, William, lecturer in the University of Glasgow (Hrsg.): The Gospel of Matthew : Volume. Philadelphia : The Westminster Press, 2000, c1975 (The Daily Study Bible Series, Rev. Ed), S. 281

Quote

The raiment worn by John the Baptist was made of camel’s hair (Matt. 3:4; Mark 1:6), by which he was distinguished from those who resided in royal palaces and wore soft raiment. This was also the case with Elijah (2 Kings 1:8), who is called “a hairy man,” from his wearing such raiment. “This is one of the most admirable materials for clothing; it keeps out the heat, cold, and rain.” The “sackcloth” so often alluded to (2 Kings 1:8; Isa. 15:3; Zech. 13:4, etc.) was probably made of camel’s hair.
Easton, M.G.: Easton's Bible Dictionary. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1996, c1897

Quote

But Elisha’s greatest work was on a political level. In accepting the hairy mantle of Elijah, Elisha also accepted the commission of Elijah. As his master had been deeply involved in the politics of his day, so Elisha went on to complete the tasks assigned to Elijah (1 Kings 19:15-16; 2 Kings 8:7-15; 9:1-10) and became constantly involved in the affairs of the nation. He provided water to a thirsty army (2 Kings 3:4-20), was instrumental in routing the Moabites (3:21-27), warned the king of enemy plans more than once (6:8-12), helped avert disaster at the hands of the Syrians (6:13-7:23), was involved in the overthrow of Ben-hadad of Damascus (8:7-15) and Jehu of Israel (9:1-13; see also 9:14-36), and from his deathbed prophesied Joash’s defeat of the Syrians (13:14-19).

Achtemeier, Paul J. ; Harper & Row, Publishers ; Society of Biblical Literature: Harper's Bible Dictionary. 1st ed. San Francisco : Harper & Row, 1985, S. 259

Quote

Elijah is called a “hairy man” (2 Kings 1:8) from his flowing locks, or more probably from the shaggy cloak of hair which he wore. His raiment was of camel’s hair.

Easton, M.G.: Easton's Bible Dictionary. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1996, c1897

Quote

1. The rough camel-hair garment seems to have been characteristic of a prophet: “On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision. He will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive” (Zechariah 13:4). John the Baptist’s garment was made of camel’s hair by which he was distinguished from royalty who wore soft raiment. This was also the case with Elijah (2 Kings 1:8), who is called “a hairy man,” from his wearing such raiment. “This is one of the most admirable materials for clothing; it keeps out the heat, cold, and rain.” The “sackcloth” so often alluded to was probably made of camel’s hair. The camel’s flesh was not to be eaten, as it was ranked among unclean animals (Leviticus 11:4; Deuteronomy 14:7).

Freeman, James M. ; Chadwick, Harold J.: Manners & Customs of the Bible. Rev. ed.]. North Brunswick, NJ : Bridge-Logos Publishers, 1998, S. 401

It would seem from the various commentaries that he was a "hairy man" because of his garment, but also the aspect too of his long hair ...

[janice]

Like I said the more I read the more confused I get. However can you clarify this?

Kay, on Apr 21 2009, 03:44 AM, said:

However, prior to this, 1 Kings 22:7 says:

"And he said to them, What manner of man was he that came up to meet you, and told you these words? 8 And they said to him, He was a man in a hairy garment, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite."

Darby, John Nelson: The Holy Scriptures : A New Translation from the Original Languages. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1996, S. 2 Ki 1:6

I don't have anything like this in 1 kings 22:7.

[Kay]

janice, on Apr 21 2009, 01:34 PM, said:

Like I said the more I read the more confused I get. However can you clarify this?

Kay, on Apr 21 2009, 03:44 AM, said:

However, prior to this, 1 Kings 22:7 says:

"And he said to them, What manner of man was he that came up to meet you, and told you these words? 8 And they said to him, He was a man in a hairy garment, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite."

Darby, John Nelson: The Holy Scriptures : A New Translation from the Original Languages. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1996, S. 2 Ki 1:6

I don't have anything like this in 1 kings 22:7.

The line should have been (because I didn't read the post through after I changed a few things - apologies):

However, 1 Kings 22:7, 2 Kings 1:6 (Darby) says:

Quote

"And he said to them, What manner of man was he that came up to meet you, and told you these words? 8 And they said to him, He was a man in a hairy garment, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite."
Darby, John Nelson: The Holy Scriptures : A New Translation from the Original Languages. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1996, S. 2 Ki 1:6

Which would seem to agree with other references about the clothing of the prophets.