186 replies to this topic

[Mercia2]

Jesus said you must eat my body and drink my blood. He then said, does this offend you? - this is an intentional paradox, a logical or moral absurdity intended to force the reader to abandon the surface meaning and look for a deeper symbolic truth.

Bread = spiritual food, to consume it is to internalize Gods Words (John 6:48-51; Exodus 16:4: Rev 10:9; Ps 119:103).

Wine = to manifest the life of Jesus that He poured out for us unto the end, "the life is in the blood" (Lev 17:11).

How often do the blood thirsty stories in the Old Testament rather ask us to do the same? The Bible starts with an INTENTIONAL PARADOX. The Creation account. A logical absurdity in the literal sense, forcing the reader to interpret the symbolic meaning. which I contest is about the spiritual development of man over 7 thousand years and nothing whatsoever to do with science or the natural creation of anything.

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Parables and Paradoxes -- Meanings Hidden, Yet Obvious
By Eleazar, 1999

http://members.cox.n...y/parables.html

This man knows what I am talking about here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00jh...arwin_Kill_God/

If you did not see it, please watch it. Was on BBC 2 last night at 7pm, "Did Darwin kill God". (link above).
The point is made that first century Christians and Jews did not believe the Genesis account was to be interpretted literally, that it was an allegory - that the Huxley warfare model is the fault of literalist Christians bringing our faith into disrepute because of their ignorance - because they insist on learning none of this and interpretting the Creation account in Genesis 1 literally - and it is those who themselves have made such noise in opposition to Darwinism by challenging it with a literal reading of the Creation account, that have done more harm than they could ever know.

How important is this?

Well keep in mind the Catholic mass is based on the words of Jesus I began with. Throughout the points below, keep in mind the Catholic mass....

1. In Matthew 4, Satan tries to deceive Jesus by appealing to the LITERAL sense of Gods Word, Jesus replied rebuking him with the spiritual meaning = bread represents spiritual food = the words of God.

2. Jesus again used an intentional paradox when He said you must eat my body (the Word of God = He is the bread) and drink my blood my blood, the context is the same.

3. The Catholics do exactly what Satan would have them do. Attempt to force a insane literal reading of those words in which instead of the spiritual meaning being taught (*to read your Bible daily = spiritual food) and have communion with others who do the same, they instead look toward witchcraft or mysticism to force a literal meaning and profess ludicrously the bread literally becomes the body of Christ through some mysteries mysterical act.

How serious is this in Gods eyes? Very serious I think according to what is said in the book of Revelation. How serious was it for the Jews? Well because they interpretted Scripture literally and not spiritually/symbolically and thought the Messiah was coming to literally "set the captives free" from Roman political rule/occupation rather than bondage to materialism/the ego, so they did not even know what they were looking for. The spiritual sense is still largely hidden. But it is undeniably their - and the more you look in to it the more you realize this cannot logically be the result of human mind and that a repeating warning within the Text is atually telling us not to read it literally and prompting us to search out the spiritual meaning, sometimes by intentionally making the literal sense absurd or an apparant contradiction. The NT is telling us to read the OT that way. To relate in the OT what is in natural symbol to what it spiritually represents. Doing so is the only way a Jew livng before Christ could have possibly recognised Jesus as the messiah is if they interpreted the OT spiritually not literally as they all thought the messiah would "set the captives free" from political Roman rule (literal/natural) not sin (spiritual/symbolic).
So if the Jews were spiritually blind then being spiritually blind is interpretting Gods Words literally/naturally not spiritually/symbolically.

..are we not supposed to have learnt this by now?

It is on this level the Bible proves itself the Word of God. Metaphors of natural symbols repeat decoding the same meaning accross books within the Bible written hundreds of years apart in different cultures by different men which have a intelligent consistant pattern that shows One mind at work. If it was the product of men these metaphors would contradict in meaning all over the place, but they dont.
http://www.revelatio...e%20Symbols.htm


Even death is often as intentional paradox. More often that not what is spoken about is not natural death but spiritual death -
http://www.godandsci...itualdeath.html
http://www.gotquesti...tual-death.html

The Genesis creation account is a spiritual allegory using natural corrosponding symbols
http://www.nvcc.edu/...n/CREATION.html
http://www.hebroots.com/lul5.html
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/...showtopic=14186

So what is the strong delusion in Thessolonians God sends in the last days to deceive those who have not yet finally learnt this truth and stopped mis-representing the Bible? Those who are making war against science and the Scripture because they hold to a rediculous literal interpretation of spiritual allegories? Like the Creation account? For which reason, Jesus, the Word of God in the Revalation returns covered in blood?

Edited by Mercia2, 04 November 2009 - 10:56 AM.

[Mercia2]

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Did Darwin Kill God?

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There are some who believe that Darwin's theory of evolution has weakened religion, fuelled in part by Richard Dawkins' publishing phenomenon The God Delusion. Conor Cunningham argues that nothing could be further from the truth.

Cunningham is a firm believer in the theory of evolution, but he is also a Christian. He believes that the clash between Darwin and God has been hijacked by extremists - fundamentalist believers who reject evolution on one side, and fundamentalist atheists on the other. Cunningham attempts to overturn what he believes are widely held but mistaken assumptions in the debate between religion and evolution.

He travels to the Middle East where he shows that from the very outset, Christianity warned against literal readings of the biblical story of creation. In Britain, he reveals that, at the time, Darwin's theory of evolution was welcomed by the Anglican and Catholic Churches. Instead, he argues that the conflict between Darwin and God was manufactured by American creationists in the 20th century for reasons that had very little to do with science and religion and a great deal to do with politics and morality.

Finally, he comes face to face with some of the most eminent evolutionary biologists, geneticists and philosophers of our time to examine whether the very latest advances in evolutionary theory do in fact kill God.

Broadcast on:
BBC Two, 8:00pm Tuesday 31st March 2009
Duration:
60 minutes
Available until:
7:59pm Tuesday 7th April 2009
Category:

* Religion & Ethics

Credits:

Key talent
Conor Cunningham

Go to Did Darwin Kill God? site

You can watch it here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00jh...arwin_Kill_God/

Edited by Mercia2, 01 April 2009 - 07:52 PM.

[Mercia2]

God teaches us this right from the start of the Bible.

Adam was to die in the day he ate the fruit.
But he didn't, not naturally anyway. This is one of the most well known Bible paradoxes.

Not literal death, spiritual death
When Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord, they “hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.” The fellowship had been broken. They were spiritually dead. A man without Christ is spiritually dead. Paul describes it as “being alienated from the life of God” in Ephesians 4:18. (To be separated from life is the same as being dead.) The natural man, like Adam hiding in the garden, is isolated from God. When we are born again, the spiritual death is reversed. Before salvation, we are dead (spiritually), but Jesus gives us life. “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” (Ephesians 2:1 NKJV). “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).

To illustrate, think of Jesus’ raising of Lazarus in John 11. The physically dead Lazarus could do nothing for himself. He was unresponsive to all stimuli, oblivious to all life around him, beyond all help or hope—except for the help of Christ who is “the Resurrection and the Life” (John 11:25). At Christ’s call, Lazarus was filled with life, and he responded accordingly. In the same way, we were spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves, powerless to perceive the life of God—until Jesus called us to Himself. He “quickened” us; “not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5).

The book of Revelation speaks of a “second death,” which is a final (and eternal) separation from God. Only those who have never experienced new life in Christ will partake of the second death (Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8).

Edited by Mercia2, 01 April 2009 - 08:23 PM.

[Mercia2]

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 tells us that "God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised, God has chosen, the things that are not, that He might nullify the things that are, that no man should boast before God."

Most Christians believe that the Scriptures were written by men under the anointing and unction of the Holy Spirit, thus providing to man God's written word. But, when contradictions in His word are presented, most respond that these are simply the differences created from the recollection of men. A common response is that if there was an automobile accident, then different observers would contribute slightly differing accounts on the one and same event. Quite so, but there is one important distinction - we are not here talking about the mere words or accountings of men! The Bible is the acclaimed word of God, and any differing accounts either demise the authenticity of the words as God's, or one must conclude that the differences are intentional and bear a uniquely hidden meaning. Holding to these two divergent opinions that the Bible is both God's written word, as well as the unplanned fallacies of the accounts of men, is to espouse two ideas that are in conflict. Either the Bible is entirely intentional as God's infallible written word, or it is not.

For one to truly hold to the trust and belief that the Bible is God's word, then one must conclude that the contradictions hold very special meaning. If the Holy Spirit wrote the gospels, then the contradictions are intentional and meaningful - a meaning that, one, must include repeatable consistency in its representation and interpretation. This choice of the "foolish," the "weak," the "despised" is most certainly what God has used in propounding these contradiction riddles - as the wise will conclude contradictions prove it is not the Word of God and as so many do stop their - they will never consider they are actually intentional paradox forcing the reader to search out a deeper spiritual meaning.

Edited by Mercia2, 05 April 2009 - 08:21 PM.

[Mercia2]

The Seven Days of Our Spiritual Creation

The story of creation also involves the distinction between light and darkness and the elimination of chaos ("unformed and void," Gen. 1:2). God "separated" or "divided" light from dark (Gen. 1:4), Earth from Sea (Gen. 1:6) and distinguished between all the living things on Earth. And, in the end, God (the differentiator) rested.

We can interpret these seven days of creation as seven stages of human spiritual development. The words "but beloved, do not forget this one thing", in relation to interpretation in this context cannot be ignored, "a day to the Lord is as a thousand years", it is the story of the Bible. First Abraham, the first stage is the moment of our initial enLIGHTenment ("Let there be light," Gen. 1:3). In the second stage there is a distinction between our spiritual and physical reality (between the "waters above and the waters below," Gen. 1:6). In the third stage (when Land is formed) we gain a firm footing upon which we may grow spiritually and "bear the fruits" (Gen. 1:11) of that growth. In the forth stage (when the sun, moon and stars are created "for signs" to "give light upon the earth," Gen. 1:14-15) we are given signs and revelations to further enLIGHTen us and Jesus the "SUN of righteousness" and "light of the world" walks among us. In the fifth and sixth stages (when animals, first simple fish, amphibians, reptiles and birds, are created and then more complicated mammals, [Gen. 1:20-24]) our spiritual life matures until, in our full spiritual maturity, we are finally "created in God's own image" (Gen. 1:27) - what man was intended to be. At this point, all creation can provide spiritual nourishment ("to you it shall be for food," Gen. 1:29). In the seventh stage of our spiritual development "God rests" (Gen. 2:2) as we reach universal God manifestation, "not by might, not by power, but by the Spirit of God". You will also find many references to the sons of God being revealed/clothed with righteousness on the third day. The third Christian millenium.

Edited by Mercia2, 04 November 2009 - 10:46 AM.

[Mercia2]

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The show was reasonably good by the BBC's standards. I understand the point that, "Christadelphians interpret devil, satan and other things symbolically- so why do they take the Creation account literally?" This is a valid view point. However, how do you intend on taking the Genesis account non literally? Day-age theory? Gap theory? 6 days of revelation theory? All have enormous scriptual flaws but no scientific ones. The literal interpretation has no scriptual flaws- God told Adam He made the world in six days so that's what Adam would have understood. God told Moses He made the world in six days so that's what Moses would have understood.

I believe both represent the "natural man" not the "spiritual man", I believe the whole OT represents what is natural and not what is spiritual, not in the literal interpretation anyway. The context is natural. Reward and punishment is within the scope of ones natural life. In the NT the context changes and the scope is spiritual. We are told Jesus is the second Adam the prototype of the new man, the new creation, which to me means the first Adam should be seen as the same, as representing natural man.

The natural man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15) The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16) "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Natural man tends to interpret the Scripture literally, naturally, not spiritually, symbolically.

Can you answer the ancient riddle:

What has one voice and yet becomes four-footed and two-footed and three-footed?

The answer is - man, who crawls on all fours when a baby, stands erect on two feet, and in old age walks with a cane.

Another ancient riddle was:

What flies forever and rests never?

The answer is - the wind.



Riddles in earlier times were, like these, of a more serious nature. Their former seriousness was evidenced by the death of the great Greek poet Homer, who is said to have died of humiliation because he could not answer a riddle (The World Book Encyclopedia).

One of the oldest recorded riddles, holding a prize for its answer, was one posed by Samson, found in Judges 14. It was equally taken very serious. At his wedding, Samson propounded to his thirty Philistine companions the following difficult riddle:

"Out of the eater came something to eat,
And out of the strong came something sweet."

Samson's companions would never have concluded the answer to this riddle, had they not forced his wife to press him for it. And force they did with threats of a consuming fire, for a prize was at stake. On the seventh and final day allotted to the thirty to discern the riddle, they answered him:

"What is sweeter than honey?
And what is stronger than a lion?"

This riddle pertained to an event involving Samson. On his way to his wedding, he had eaten honey from the carcass of a lion which he had previously slain with his bare hands.

Who could have ever discerned Samson's riddle, had he not revealed its answer to his persistent new bride? His response to the Philistines upon their answering the riddle was even a riddle with a more obvious answer:

"If you had not plowed with my heifer,
You would not have found out my riddle."

We find in the Scriptures that the propounding of riddles, and their related proverbs, are not limited to the skill and use of man. In Ezekiel 17:2f, God declared to Ezekiel:

"Son of man, propound a riddle, and speak a parable to the house of Israel, saying ...."

This riddle/parable propounded by God involved a great eagle that came down and took away the top of a cedar tree, and then planted seed in fertile soil.

The riddle/parable association seen here in Ezekiel is found in other locations in the Scriptures as well. In Psalms 78:2 we read:

I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter riddles of old.

And in Psalms 49:4 we similarly read:

I will incline my ear to a proverb;
I will open up my riddle on the harp.

Even Solomon's writings were presented in order to gain wisdom and instruction, and:

To understand a proverb and a figure,
The words of the wise and their riddles (Proverbs 1:6).

But of course riddles and parables are not limited to the Old Testament. Jesus very frequently used parables in His teachings:

"Behold, the sower went out to sow ..." (Mark 4:3),

"A certain man had two sons ..." (Luke 15:11),

"Two men went up into the temple to pray ..." (Luke 18:10),

All these things Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable (Matthew 13:34).

Because of the wording of translations, one might be unaware that Paul noted this quality of God to express truth to earthly man in riddles, so we must almost expect the Genesis creation account to do the same. Examining the original Greek text in 1 Corinthians 13:12, we read more literally the following:

For now we see through a mirror in a riddle, but then face to face ....

The difficulty of Gods riddles is then seen in the next statement:

... now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known.

Jesus spoke in parables, evidenced by their great number recorded in the gospels. The question thus remains - Where are these riddles Paul spoke of? We read the many parables; where are the riddles?

Evidenced in the teachings of the Son, revealed in the writings of the Old Testament, and affirmed in the writings of Paul, we find that the nature of God is to conceal (with the ultimate purpose to reveal) truth in parables and riddles. We will now consider in this writing a marvelous work of God to present in the Scriptures numerous riddles in a most unusual and concealed fashion. Once the framing of these riddles is discovered, we find that the Scriptures contain many of them - revealing a most complex and highly unique nature of God.

God has propounded some of the most marvelous riddles, yet apart from "plowing with His heifer" they are otherwise hidden; hidden not only in their answer, but equally hidden in their actual propounding. As King Nebuchadnezzar double hid his dream by calling for "the magicians, the conjurers, the sorcerers and Chaldeans" to tell him both his dream and its interpretation (Daniel 2), even so God has double hidden His riddles - both the propoundings as well as the answers. Thus, God is equally asking - You discover the riddle and its meaning! Why would He do this? For the same reason Nebuchadnezzar's dream was hidden - in order to reveal and establish His "Daniel." As with Joseph, who was elevated to be ruler over Egypt by the interpretation of a riddle dream, Daniel was likewise elevated to be ruler over the whole province of Babylon, as well as personally over the wise men, by both the revelation and the interpretation of a riddle dream.

Before going on, a word should be mentioned with regard to the duality of this sight that Paul said opportunes us - "through a mirror in a riddle." We have already considered the role of "a riddle" in the ways of God; let us briefly consider what this "through a mirror" means.

First we ask the question - What is a mirror? A mirror is an object that reflects an image. The reflected image is not the reality, though it represents in appearance something that is reality. One could say that in a mirror, like reflects reality; or, adding the fourth dimension of time, like reflects ultimate reality. This is what God provides by foreshadowing future events through past events, or through the writings of the Scriptures concerning past events - He provides mirror images of that which will be. As written by Solomon - "That which has been is that which will be, and that which has been done is that which will be done" (Ecclesiastes 1:9). These mirror images are reflections of that which will take place in the future.

These mirror images of that which will be are equally "riddles," particularly difficult riddles when trying to see or understand what will occur in the yet to come reality, the true image. Thus, when Paul wrote that "we see through a mirror in a riddle," we must understand that two issues are being spoken of - the foreshadowing mirror image, as well as the riddle it presents. Unfortunately, though men have recognized the quality of God to provide foreshadowing mirror images of that which has already occurred (e.g., the first coming of Christ) or even that which is to come, up to now men have not perceived or understood many of His riddles. This is especially true of the strange and hidden mirror images found in contradictions.

Edited by Mercia2, 01 April 2009 - 10:20 PM.

[Mercia2]

So as we know God teaches us by riddles, in what context are the riddles OBVIOUSLY going to be answered? - From the Scriptures, Bible echoe

The work of the Holy Spirit to impress upon our minds relevant Scripture or stories in the Bible that solves the problem. If we believe it is the Holy Spirit impressing these "Bible echoes" on our mind that leads to the interpretation of a riddle, then we cannot boast and the saying comes true, "not by might, not by power, but by the Spirit of God", the third temple will be built and God dwell in us.

We must all do what the Bible tells us (Luke 11:13) and not trust in what organised religion tells us. To be born again we need to repent privately to God and "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" - Otherwise God will not impose upon our free will and we will never be truly born again.

Edited by Mercia2, 01 April 2009 - 10:13 PM.

[Mercia2]

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So the answer to the riddle of Genesis is that God is not actually a Creator- just an oberving mutator

What is time to God? Was time just created for us?

Evolution is just a process or system of Creation. God knows the end from the begginning so the outcome is known and is the same. So the only question then is, what is time? It is another riddle isnt it like the Bible, but was it ever going to be any other way? Why would God create a natural order of survival of the fittest and then teach us the meek inhert the earth? Its an opposite isnt it. So maybe the Cathars were right? Or maybe we just do not understand are were never meant to understand.

We are never going to find absolute proof of Divine Creation how we want it or it would by extension prove God to even those who do not wish to, which is invading our free will and destroying moral autonomy is a way in which God does not work. So God was always going to make it look like there was a chance it all came about by chance. I see no evidence God even took an interest in mankind or Creation until possilby 10.000 years ago?

The answers you are looking for about science and the natural creation are not found in Genesis 1 which conveys are much deeper (prophetic) meaning in context *(our spiritual development from the time of Abraham to events still future). The Bible says it is God who forms and moulds the Spirit within man and that is a work of the ages, an evolutionary process, that is what Genesis 1 is about. As we are told the natural mirrors the spiritual and vice versa as the spiritual creation to perfection is evolutionary, so we should expect the natural to be the same. It is not for me or any of us to worry about how God created the natural, we need to be concerned about what God wants us to be concerned about, the spiritual development/evolution of ourselves and humanity.

Edited by Mercia2, 02 April 2009 - 11:49 AM.

[Mercia2]

I do not think Genesis is even talking about death as we naturally think of it. Death to God seems to be something different.

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humans are not made in the image of God

We dont look like God, no. "God is Spirit". The image of God is the character of God.

Edited by Mercia2, 02 April 2009 - 11:50 AM.

[Mercia2]

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God can be spirit and still look like humans. What did he look like when he walked the earth with Adam and Eve? But of course, this is another riddle.

The Bible says God spoke to Moses from the burning bush, it also says it was an angel. The context above is probably the same?

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If we are made in the character of God then why do we have the ability to sin? God can not sin- He is perfect. What is time to God?

I believe we were originally made in the image of God and the Bible is all about us getting back to that point again.

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What is time to God? God invented time and He is immune to time. We are not however.

That was originally the point I was trying to imply. If God is immune to time, then the reasons fundementalist Darwinists give for claiming evolution is not God creating the world as it can be explained over a huge period of time is floored human reasoning. Evolution is simply a clever way in which God programmed Creation to get to where we are now, Time was created by God for us and we were the ultimate ending God has in mind. Time is an illusion for us, in order for us to maintain free will and moral autonomy, which absolute proof of Divine Creation would destroy.

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Evolution is random- no design involved- no Creator involved.

You cannot put a lot of old wheelbarrows in a shed and wait 200 billion years for them to turn into state of the art terminator like intelligent robots, because they wont.

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What does the survival of the fittest have to do with the meek inheritting the earth? You talk as if humans are animals and actually follow the survival of the fittest. Humans are not animals- we are made in the image of God

Yes we were made in the Image of God and then we fell and become as nature beasts and are all motivated by the same basic principles that motivate the animals, these are those "in the image/character of the beast" until we are born again a new creation, with a Christ like mind and in the image of Jesus, the Divine image/character.

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecc 3:18

Darwin says we are beasts, so does God.

My point was nature is cruel and we are at war against its basic nature. If Gods creation process of evolution works by selecting the strong over the weak, then why are we told God choses the weak over the strong and that the meek will inherit the earth?

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God didn't take an interest in mankind until 10000 years ago- what was He doing for the other billions of years?

Language, civilisation, the Scriptures, all began around the same time. I believe God breathed His Spirit into the animal man around this time and that is when everything really began.

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God didn't take an interest in mankind until 10000 years ago- what was He doing for the other billions of years?

Probably seeding countless new worlds at various stages of development? The Universe is obviously very big for a reason.

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God moulds and forms the spirit and this is the work of Evolution?

Yes the Bible is an evolution, from the Old Testament to the new. The sons of God will be revealed in the future when man learns war no more (Isa 3) and the lion and lamb lay down together, mankind has not reached this level of holiness yet. So likewise the seeds are planted and mutate into a tree which produces much fruit. God sends Abraham then Moses and the prophets mutating us to holiness untl we get to the perfect example in Lord Jesus who is a prototype of us all, "sons of God", the third temple. Adam was the old creation, Jesus the second Adam is the first born of the new Creation.

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I admit mutating some wings would be nice but I'm not really too concerned about it. By the way, the point about not trusting what organized religion teaches us- why do you believe what organized science teaches you?

I believe what it says in that documentary, that the scientists who arrogantly imagine they know it all when it comes to Darwinism know about as much as Newton when he thought he had it all cracked, then comes along quantum physics and countless more possibilities.

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Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

We were not created in 6 literal days and the sun was not created the day after all the plants and vegetablies that turned into trees and produced lots of fruit etc. They would have known that 2000 years ago, infact they did. It is an intentional paradox. Plants and trees need the sun to grow and they are not planted in one day and turn into trees that produces lots of different fruits in a literal 24 hour period as verse 11 says. I think we all must stop this nonsense - the same sort of people who believe the earth is 6000 years old and dinosaurs lived on earth with man believe Babylon is Iraq and Saddam Hussein was the anti Christ. The Bible is full of intentional paradoxs' and apparant contradictions like this, as we can see from Genesis 1, it starts with an intentional paradox, all intended to force us to abandon the literal meaning and search out the deeper richer meaning. It is an allegory, every single word is symbolic of our spiritual development over a seven thousand year period. It is one of the riddles of God using a pagan myth that God uses to convey a stunning and beautiful prophecy. Abandoning the literal meaning and learning all of this deeply enrichens our faith and wonder in Gods Word. Also if we keep insiting it is the natural creation account and not the spiritual creation of man, what happens is all the world will hear the Bible is to be interpretted literally and they will never know even Christadelphians do not believe that, and much of it is allegory, parable, symbolic. It starts that way (Genesis) and ends that way (Revelation) and we will know the end from the beggining (Gen 1) - it is prophecy from the start to the end.

Edited by Mercia2, 03 April 2009 - 09:53 AM.

[Mercia2]

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How can you say humans were originally made in the image of God if we were originally soup, then apes then humans. Which is the image of God?

Because just as I believe "death" means spiritual death not natural death, so I believe "image" means spiritual image/character not physical/literal image. Also, as I do not believe its talking about natural creation at all, but that God has taken a nonsense pagan Creation account and decoded into it a beautiful prophecy about mans spiritual creation over 7 thousand years.

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"You cannot put a lot of old wheelbarrows in a shed and wait 200 billion years for them to turn into state of the art terminator like intelligent robots, because they wont." Then why do you believe in Evolution? You think God is in control of every mutation? The mutations can empirically be seen to be random and usually detrimental. Hardly a clever way of Creating things, especially if you have the power to create things in one single day.

You said earlier God is immune to time, I said earlier that time was created for us, so it only our thinking that makes a big deal over the massive amount of time as we understand it.

I do not believe God was involved in every mutation, no, I believe just as God interves in the spiritual evolution or development of mankind oover the last 6 thousand years by first sending Abraham, then Moses, then the prophets and Jesus, so He probably does likewise in the natural evolutionary process. I believe God created the system of evolution or part natural selection as a creation system and that this combined with time was intended to give the illusion to those who do not wish to believe in a God, enough of a chance not to have their free will infringed. If you think about it, God could have done it no other way - and as I say, the system of creation in this way does not imply atheism at all. Like I said, if you leave some old wheelbarrows in a shed for 200 billion years they do not turn into highly advanced robots.

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I'm sorry I just don't understand your point about the meek inheritting the earth, so I'll leave that one.

Whether you believe in evolution or not, nature is cruel, the meek and weak do not survive. Yet God reverses the natural order when He says the meek shall inherit the earth and He choses the weak over the strong and wise.

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"Mutating us to holiness". So holiness does not require following a Teacher by free will- it just involves mutation?

An example of what I meant is in my earlier remarks about God sending first Abraham, then Moses, then the prophets and finally Jesus. At each stage the intention was to interfere with the spiritual evolution of mankind for the better. So to answer your question. no.

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How do you know that plants can't be fruitful without the sun? God was the light before the sun. You can't say what the pre-fall plants needed anymore than I can because we both weren't there. The record says that the plants and vegetation were made before the sun. Who are either of us to question it?

Because I have come to realize it is an intentional paradox, like the example I first stated with when Satan appealed to the literal sense of Gods words in Matt 4 and Jesus replied with the meaning and when He said we must eat His body and drink His blood, yet again forcing us to abandon the literal meaning and search for what that symbolically/spiritually represents.
I would say you actually answer my interpretation of what it means when you say "God was the light before the sun", as God was the light before the Sun of Righteousness Lord Jesus was sent on the 4th day. I believe the trees that produce fruit on the third day are people who produce good deeds illuminated by the light of God.

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but if the symbolic interpretation forces people to limit God's role as Creator and limit his power as to think He needs millions of years of trial and error to get to His desired position- then it should be abandoned.

I think it was really Huxley and the militant atheists who devised the reductionist 'warfare model' that does that and millions of Christians fell right into that trap.

Edited by Mercia2, 04 April 2009 - 07:46 PM.

[Mercia2]

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It's pagan to think that God created the world in six days like it says in Genesis? It's even repeated in Exodus so there is no misunderstanding, "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.

But the Bible also says, "DO NOT FORGET THIS ONE THING, a day to the Lord is as a thousand years", when? Sometimes, a few times, or all the time? What is the "sea" in the book of Revelation? It is not the literal sea, it is "multitudes, peoples and tongues" - and is God not going to rest on the seventh day? It is what the book of Revelation calls the thousand year reign of Christ.

Talking about Exodus, have you read my thread under General Theology which attempt to show the Exodus story is a non literal spiritual allegory about being born again? - http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/...?showtopic=9855

Edited by Mercia2, 04 April 2009 - 08:48 PM.

[Mercia2]

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Your thread was interesting. However, if you keep symbolizing things and ignoring the literal then pretty soon you'll have 66 books of signs and symbols with no historical credability and you'll be saying that Jesus didn't exist and that he is allegory and that God doesn't exist as He is allegory.

I understand what you are saying I have wondered over it many times. In other words like Christadelphians make THE Satan non literal, although Fortigurn would be quick to point out it can still apply to a literal man, but thats a satan, not the Satan. God had shown me the literal Satan at a papal mass in 1982 in a vision so the conclusion I have came to is this..,.

1. Almost everything in the Bible that is a NATURAL symbol, such as earth, sea, weat, chaff, seeds, trees, fruit, beasts, war, creation is a symbol for what it SPIRITUALLY represents and may be an intentional paradox if read literally.

2. While everything spiritual such as God, Jesus, the prophets, the Holy Spirit, Satan and demons is literal. God only uses NATURAL symbols for what they spiritually represent, He never uses something spiritual, such as Jesus/God etc non literally - the gnostics mistake was to spiritualize even that which was already spiritual.

I also believe, as the natural creation is about the spiritual creation, so the wars in the Old Testament are spiritual battles as well. The battles against Egypt, Israel, Tyre, Babylon etc are spiritual battles that can apply to the Christian era between the reformed and non reformed, the natural and the spiritual. If there is an intentional paradox, like God saying kill everyone, it means spiritually kill everyone, make them born again. I think some Jews interpret the battles against the Amalek as battles against the doubts of your mind, so to wipe them out has a whole different meaning more compatible with the Spirit of our faith.

Edited by Mercia2, 05 April 2009 - 02:40 PM.

[Mercia2]

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However if you say the literal Exodus didn't happen (whether it's because it doesn't agree with what the naturalistic scientists are saying or for some other reason) then you take away the historicity of the Bible and everything in it. You clearly have a passion for symbology which is not what I am criticizing but if you make everything symbolic, the entire Bible becomes allegorical (if that's a word) and it loses it's value as a record of real people

I think those are all wise words and I try to be cautious because of the gnostics mistakes and I do not yet know what is purely allorgerical or both literal and an allegory. Some of Gods Words are purely non literal though like the statement I started with when Jesus said we must eat His body and drink His blood.

[Mercia2]

accidental duplication

Edited by Mercia2, 05 April 2009 - 05:49 PM.

[Mercia2]

Just as a footnote Steve, Christadelphians already believe God uses intentional paradox when it comes to demons in the New Testament and the argument is nearly the same as mine. I am saying that God uses intentional paradox i.e something that is a nonsense literally to force the reader to discover the deeper spiritual meaning. The example I use was Jesus saying we are to eat His body and drink His blood, this I believe He said as a (key). With the Creation acount I am saying God uses a pagan myth to decode within it a deeper spiritual meaning/prophecy and Christadelphians believe God uses a pagan myth (the belief in demons as causing disease and mental illness) to encode a deeper reality. The argument for WHY God uses pagan myths like the Creation account could be argued to be the same as Christadelphians rationale of why God uses the concept of demons - and while I believe Satan and his angels exist literally and the Bible supports the idea of Satan being Gods destroying angel in my opinion, subservient to God - demons (as in the pagan idea) that cause illness and mental illness I have never been convinced about beyond trusting the Gospel in the literal sense.

Perhaps it is another INTENTIONAL PARADOX in exactly the same context?

Edited by Mercia2, 05 April 2009 - 08:41 PM.

[Mercia2]

Yes I know Steve how Christadelphians interpret Satan as a satan which means adversary, but thats not THE Satan. The silver bullet verse you refer to when it was both Satan and God who made David call a census I believe is just showing us God is overall sovereign, THE Satan, I believe is Gods angel of wrath, as in the book of Job, but all that is another matter.

I will read the rest later when I get home from work, but I respect your position as I denied evolution for a long time as well.

Edited by Mercia2, 06 April 2009 - 12:03 PM.

[Mercia2]

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Your theory about seven thousand years of spirtual development has enormous weaknesses but it completely collapses when it is realized that it has been longer than six thousand years since Adam. The latest date for Adam is 4004 BC by adding the given genealogies but it is almost certainly earlier than that. Six thousand years have passed and there is no Millenium unless you think this is the Millenium.

For me the seven thousand year prophecy of Genesis 1 and what else is revealed symbolically in the Bible confirms it is so. I have masses of Scripture showing this echoeing throughout the Old Testament in the new but on another computer so I cannot post more right now.

When Jesus talked about the end of the aeon/age, the Jews at the time will have known straight away He was talking about the astrological ages which last around 2000 years and seem to corrospond with Gods plan, Abraham, 4000BC, Moses 2000BC, Jesus, and then Jesus.

I believe we are at the end of the age of Pisces, "I will make you fishers of men", and we are entering the age of Aquarius, symbolised in the Gospol by the male pitcher with water (the symbol of Aquarius) that the apostles were to follow to a upper prepared room (symbolic of the new Christlike mindset) of this new age, that Jesus had prepared for us. It would have been immediately noticeable to Jews reading that Scripture that it was a womans role to be a water pitcher, not a mans. Also, the temple of Gods Most Holy Place corrosponds with the human mind, the forehead, see here - http://www.templesecrets.info/

We are the third temple being prepared for the third Christian day.

The third day is a bible echoe that keeps repeating, both Jesus was raised on the third day and the sons of God will be revealed in the third Christian millenium, "a day to the Lord is as a thousand years". Do a search for the "third day", the relevance of the words connected to it in relation to Christ will surprise you - and like many prophecies has a dual application revealed in the Bible, first relating to Christ and then relating to "the sons of God" who will be revealed in His image in the third Christian millenium.

Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight

Exodus 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Notice that the LORD tells Moses to "sanctify them today and tomorrow and let them wash their clothes." That accounts for two days or two thousand years that the church is supposed to be living holy and sanctified lives. Jesus is coming after a bride without spot, wrinkle, blemish, or any such thing. (Ephesians 5). They are exhorted to be ready for the third day when the LORD will come down in the sight of the people. This is a type of when Jesus will return again to resurrect His people.

II Kings 20:5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD

Is it any coincidence that he is healed and called to the house of the LORD on the third day?

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope

Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

What also grabs my attention is that in this short epistle, he says "be not ignorant of this one thing." I believe the apostle Peter was (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of course) giving us a clue about the approximate duration of the church age.

Jesus said that "in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established", and we do have another witness found in the psalms.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

1000 years= 1 day equation, we can surmise a few things. We know that God made the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th (the number 7 represents completion).

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Interestingly enough, man was created on the sixth day. We see this theme throughout the scriptures that the number 6 usually represents the number of man.

The seventh "day" or 7th thousand year period would be the millinial reign of Christ on the earth (where the kingdoms of the earth become the kingdoms of Christ and God). The first "2 days" (2000 years) represent the time from Adam to the calling of Abram. The second set of "2 days "(next 2000 years or cumulative total of 4 days) goes from the calling of Abram to the time of Christ. In Genesis, the sun or "great light" as it's called was created on the 4th day, just as Christ who is the "Sun of righteousness"-according to Malachi 4 came to the earth on the 4th day or four thousandth year. The next "2 days" I believe represent the church age, and the final or 7th "day" climaxes with the thousand year reign of Christ on the earth

Exodus 19:14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes. 19:15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives. 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. 19:20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

The symbolism is very evident here. Again, the theme of "two days" of sanctification followed by the "third day" of the LORD'S appearance. Even more interesting is the sound of the trumpet heard at the exact same time. (Compare that with I Cor 15, I Thess 4, and Rev 4 where the trumpet heralds the coming of Christ.) Finally, notice that the LORD called Moses "up", just as we will be "caught up" together in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air.

Esther 5:1 Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king's house, over against the king's house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house

On the third day, the church (who is the espoused bride of Christ) will put on a robe and crown, and go meet the king to celebrate the marriage supper of the Lamb!

Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Again, I find this verse amazing! Notice Jesus shows that He will cast out devils and heal (do cures) today and tomorrow (that's 2 days right?) and the "third day" (just like Hosea) He will be perfected. I believe this is a reference to the church (who is the body of Christ) that is casting out devils and doing the work of the LORD with His power during the church age, followed by the resurrection when Christ is "perfected." Now of course, He already is perfect and always was. But I believe this is symbolic of the fact that He (Christ Jesus) is the "head" , and we (the church) are the body. On the third day, the head and the body will be perfectly joined together, and so shall we ever be with the LORD.

John 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there

As we looked at earlier, there will be a marriage of the church and the bridegroom (Jesus) on the third day.

We also know that Jesus (who is our example that we are to follow) was Himself raised on the third day. Doesn't it stand to reason that the church would follow His example, and also be raised on the third day to live in His sight? The verses stating that Christ rose on the third day are too numerous to mention here, but take my word for it-He did rise on the third day praise God!

[Mercia2]

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Can you please elaborate on your phrase, "God uses a Pagan myth to decode..." Do you think the Creation account already existed as a Pagan myth and God built on this Pagan myth or do you think its all original?

Yes I believe God uses existing pagan myths, I cannot see how that can be disputed? Even Christadelphians believe this is so when it comes to demons in the New Testament. Yet God uses these myths as people already understand them and uses them to decode His own truth and reality into them metaphorically, which often reveals an opposite truth to what the pagans believed. For example, the earliest cults, as archeology has shown, had an almost universal fascination with the worship of the serpent as a symbol for enlightenment/a god etc. So the first thing God does in the Bible is not ignore this pagan symbol, but casts it down.

Edited by Mercia2, 13 April 2009 - 08:52 PM.

[Mercia2]

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Which books convinced you of Evolution (the Pagan myth) and what do you think of the arguments against Evolution from the Intelligent Design movement?

I do believe in intelligent design, called evolution. What I am saying is how God created the world is none of my business and is not really much of my concern, only that God is giving us massive clues that Genesis 1 is not the literal creation account as Jesus did when He said we must eat His body and drink His blood that the literal interpretation hides the real meaning. For example, one day refers to the movement of the sphere, if it is a literal day then how could the creation days be literal before the sun was created?

Its an intentional paradox to force us to search out the real meaning which was never about giving us scientific knowledge but spiritual knowledge of Gods plan.

Edited by Mercia2, 13 April 2009 - 09:27 PM.